3rd Edition Birthright

[Galwinganoon]

I just came to this website, and much to my satisfaction, I saw that Birthright is being updated for 3rd ed. My question is this: how do I become involved with the creation process? I do not know the proper procedures for "getting involved," but I would love to help make Birthright 3E a reality.

[Ulairi]

Originally posted by Galwinganoon


I just came to this website, and much to my satisfaction, I saw that Birthright is being updated for 3rd ed. My question is this: how do I become involved with the creation process? I do not know the proper procedures for "getting involved," but I would love to help make Birthright 3E a reality.

Welcome to the boards! You're involved right now by just joining the community, wasn't that eas? :)

I believe that the development team is full. They do however read the boards so it's not that hard to voice your opinion.

[doom]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:24:37PM +0100, Ulairi wrote:
>> My question is this: how do I become involved with the creation
>> process? I do not know the proper procedures for "getting involved,"
>> but I would love to help make Birthright 3E a reality.

The best way for everyone to be involved is to set aside some time to
critique and playtest the d20 rules once the playtest draft is posted.

The project`s goal is to provide a complete draft to the birthright.net
community, and then have the community (as a whole) discuss
good/bad/ugly issues with the rulebook until a consensus is reached.
The consensus of all members of www.birthright.net will help create a
"official" d20 Birthright rulebook.

When will the playtest draft be ready? It is hard to make deadline
projections on a fan project that is is being created by volunteers, as
real life (and paying jobs) clearly take priority. It seems very
likely, however, that the developers will have a complete internal
draft of the d20 BR rulebook by the end of next month and will
hopefully have something edited and ready for comments from the
birthright.net community at large in January.

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Galwinganoon wrote:
> I just came to this website, and much to my satisfaction, I saw that
> Birthright is being updated for 3rd ed. My question is this: how do
> I become involved with the creation process? I do not know the proper
> procedures for "getting involved," but I would love to help make
> Birthright 3E a reality.

They don`t want help. Despite 3e having been out for quite some time, and
no BR to show for it, they don`t want any more people to actually do work.
Frankly, at this point you`re better off doing your own conversion.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[doom]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:27:32PM -0500, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> > I just came to this website, and much to my satisfaction, I saw that
> > Birthright is being updated for 3rd ed. My question is this: how do
> > I become involved with the creation process? I do not know the proper
> > procedures for "getting involved," but I would love to help make
> > Birthright 3E a reality.
>
> They don`t want help. Despite 3e having been out for quite some time, and
> no BR to show for it, they don`t want any more people to actually do work.
> Frankly, at this point you`re better off doing your own conversion.

Wow... lots of negativity. Whats this all about? The official
project, as such, has been on-going for less than a year. We have been
moving forward at about the speed of one chapter every two months.
Given that this is unpaied work, I (for one) am quite pleased at the
speed of the progress to date.

Your statement that that "they don`t want help ... they don`t want any
more people to actually do work" seems to be based on the assumption
that having more people will somehow speed the development process.
Getting a good agreement on direction from six (strongly opinioned)
people is challenging - from twenty it is impossible nearly
impossible. The people who were chosen to be on the team are _exactly_
those people who were "doing their own conversions"; i.e. people who
had spent time thinking about conversion issues, had taken time to
write up their ideas, and had taken the time to share those ideas to
the group at large. Those conversions are still available for anyone
who wants to use them as a basis for starting their own.

It would be _great_ if there was a way to include everyone in the
process, but I don`t believe that is in any way a realistic
proposition.

My $0.001 GB

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by doom
My $0.001 GB

- Doom



NO FAIR! I didn't get squat!

My paypal account is lavvgiver@hotmail.com if anyone is ambitious. ;)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by doom

It would be _great_ if there was a way to include everyone in the process, but I don`t believe that is in any way a realistic proposition.
General question: What's with the posted articles on this page. Are those integrated in the official 3rd Edition book?

[Birthright-L]

From: "Dr. Travis Doom" <doom@CS.WRIGHT.EDU>

> Wow... lots of negativity. Whats this all about? The official
> project, as such, has been on-going for less than a year. We have been
> moving forward at about the speed of one chapter every two months.
> Given that this is unpaied work, I (for one) am quite pleased at the
> speed of the progress to date.
>

There has definitely been an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the closed
nature of the conversion project here on the list. I can see why; everyone
who cares about Birthright would want to have some influence over such a
project. I, for one, have made a 3E conversion and posted it to this list,
though I did it in the form of a website and not as a conversion document
and the target group were mainly my own players. Still, I was never offered
a post on the team. And precious little information has leaked on the
decisions and considerations made by the conversion team, so I wonder what
is really going on in there. Others might have had similar experiences.

I am not dissatisfied with this. Having worked on the Netbook of Feats team
for nearly two years, I know how hard it can be to coordinate different
opinions, and I have a definite respect for the current groups desire to
keep the number of collaborators down. My only issue is to wonder how much
weight you give to posts here on the list (like a long post on trading rules
I did, for example).

I also think that issues that you have a hard time agreeing on (there are
always such issues) could be aired here. The list can have an advisory
position in the project and serve as a brain trust.





__________________________________________________ ___
Följ VM på nära håll på Yahoo!s officielle VM-sajt www.yahoo.se/vm2002
Håll dig ajour med nyheter och resultat, med vinnare och förlorare...

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
There has definitely been an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the closed
nature of the conversion project here on the list. I can see why; everyone
who cares about Birthright would want to have some influence over such a
project. I, for one, have made a 3E conversion and posted it to this list,
though I did it in the form of a website and not as a conversion document
and the target group were mainly my own players. Still, I was never offered
a post on the team. And precious little information has leaked on the
decisions and considerations made by the conversion team, so I wonder what
is really going on in there. Others might have had similar experiences.

I am not dissatisfied with this. Having worked on the Netbook of Feats team
for nearly two years, I know how hard it can be to coordinate different
opinions, and I have a definite respect for the current groups desire to
keep the number of collaborators down. My only issue is to wonder how much
weight you give to posts here on the list (like a long post on trading rules
I did, for example).

I also think that issues that you have a hard time agreeing on (there are
always such issues) could be aired here. The list can have an advisory
position in the project and serve as a brain trust.


I can understand the dissatifaction of being in the loop however, this is no different then not being involved in the development of product by WotC themselves, or not being involved in the writing of a newspaper/magazine, or the production of a movie...

Being experienced in the "Netbook of Feats team", you can see the wisdom of a smaller core group of people doing the writing.

As far as activity.... Our "closed" group has 2045 posts on our own discussion board, as of this morning. You'd have to check with Arjan to determine if these are included in the 10667 total that is listed on the main forum page. But that is nearly 20% of the posting... And if you have read many of Mark_Aurel posts ;), then you know they aren't the typical 3 line posts on the main threads.

Early on we broached the main boards on a regular basis for core ideas and suggestions on the more complicated/confusing items such as trade routes. The suggestions presented are always taken into consideration. Admittedly though when the boards were at their apex not everything on the main threads was read in a timely fashion. Real life and the project were a bit too overwhelming. Still we cannot efficiently ask the boards to respond to every issue. It generally takes 2-4 weeks for minor issues to even begin to be worked out in the larger community. With our smaller group a few days to a week can be sufficient.

Thus far we have yet to really hit an issue that has flared to war. Diplomacy and debate of the issue has always won the day. Personally, I find these topics to be of greater interest and the results are generally of better quality. Conflicting opinions does not by any means need to be a negative thing. Multiple viewpoints brings enlightenment and enhances the project.

[morgramen]

Ahem...

Now I know how the dudes und dudettes over at Wizards of the Coast feel.

WOWZA!

This isn't the X-Files people, and we're not the dread sewer monster waiting patiently to suck you down the drain to your certain doom. And as far as I know, there are no secret powers in control of Skinner either...

As far as I know that is.

Mind you, I haven't seen Arjan around for a time either....

:::Morg looks down his sink drain cautiously:::

At any rate, I'd have to agree with my illustrious colleges. There is such a thing as too many people, especially when it comes to opinions. The Birthright-L is prime example. When was the last time all 350-ish people (last I checked anyway) came to a unaniomous agreement on anything. In fact, I've heard of more people *leaving* the list because there is always an endless stream of debate, and never any actual progress on the ideas.

So, what is better? To involve everyone directly, and hope that when the dust settles soemthing tangible remains, or to take a small handful of human brain matter, throw it in a jar, shake it violenetly, and then tip it over to see what falls out?

Despite some folks certainly having posted and otherwise shared their ideas, not having been "picked" is nothing to be preturbed about. I didn't make the first round of drafts either, and I'm not even sure who actually put this monster together to tell you the truth. So, you're not really "loosing out" by not being on the team, the same way you're not "loosing out" by not being an active employee of WotC. Now, if we got freebies, gifts, oodles of cash, a prestige beyond mortal comprehension, then I could understand the "loosing out" argument, but we don't even get a cheap gold watch when this is all done folks. Nothing. Nodda. Zip. It's a labour of love; and nothing more, nothin less.

The bottom line is that this is not "Their" project. It is a fan work, by the fans, for the fans. That means that what we are doing is based on the endless debates we've all had over these 9and other forums), we've heard the arguments and logic behind each one. We know what the popular opinion is, and what the popular "fear" is.

Personally, I think folks are getting a few steps ahead of themselves, and are taking this entire "Us against them" thing a gorgon's toe too far.

In the end, if the result of the 3E project is not what *YOU* wanted, then change it so that it is. That's nothing new. How many of us play Birthright 2E straight out of the box?

Anyone?

Didn't think so. :P

[Galwinganoon]

Well, I suppose that answer suffices, it's just unfortunate that I came to this site as late in the project as I did, I would really have liked to help.

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, morgramen wrote:
> Now I know how the dudes und dudettes over at Wizards of the Coast feel.

Well, not exactly. They get critiques based on products they /release/.
And they get laid-off a lot.

> So, what is better? To involve everyone directly, and hope that when
> the dust settles soemthing tangible remains,

Yes. Compare it to software. Release early, release often. Revise,
revise, revise.

Or, you can go with what is apparently being planned, one monolithic
release that will get the `official` stamp two or three years after 3e
came out, and never revise it based on outside opinion- because really, if
it took this long to write the thing, changes will _not_ be incorporated
on any foreseeable timeframe.

And it will get scathing criticism, because nobody has seen it before it
was in its `final` form. Early drafts get more slack from a fan/user
community like this, but there have been none. So the 5 or 6 guys that
have poured their hearts into this and believe that it`s great, are going
to end up terribly offended, pissed off, and the conversion will never be
touched again by anyone.

> The bottom line is that this is not "Their" project. It is a fan
> work, by the fans, for the fans.

It`s not by the fans, that`s the complaint. It`s by 5 or 6 guys. We keep
hearing "we`ll release it for critique when it`s ready", but then, "6 of 8
chapters are done" and nothing has been released.

> In the end, if the result of the 3E project is not what *YOU* wanted,
> then change it so that it is.

Or, y`all could release it earlier, get improvements, and make more people
than just the small working group happy, rather than saying "if you don`t
like it, don`t use it". If it`s a `fan work`, you should be trying to
make more fans happy.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ellendael Nightstalker]

Mmm, is that the scent of sour grapes I smell, Daniel?

Note, in this post I am NOT representing the members of the Birthright Development Team. I'm on it, but I'm speaking only for myself... just so there's no confusion and any crap from anything that arises later will cling only to those who deserve it.

Now.

Let me look at your complaints, Daniel. Maybe I should just drop everything, including the freelance work that pays my bills, to put together this book so you'll be all happy-joy-joy. Oh, wait... that'd be IDIOTIC.

This project is not paying anyone a dime. It's a labor of love for a group of talented volunteers, and I for one resent the fact that you can't seem to get your mind around the concept.

You say the book isn't for the fans. Well if it's not for the fans of birthright, who the hell IS it for?? It's not for me... much as I love Birthright I could get along just fine with Doom's conversion and skip the hours and hours of writing and editing material. It's not for WOTC, they haven't shown even a shred of interest in what we're doing.

You've made it quite clear that the project certainly isn't for YOU... and that's fine. I just think it's sad... Think about it logically, what's more likely to get the book finished on time or early? Abuse and nonconstructive criticism? Bee-atching and whining? Or support?

I don't normally frequent the boards here... I've got a lot of things to do, which DOES include working on the birthright project, gratis. Which means I don't often get to sample the "fan attitude" towards our work. If it matters, thanks to anyone reading this who's stood up for the Development team. Your support is important to us, after all... as I said above... this book's for you.

In all fairness, I realize that Daniel can't see the "other side" where the Development team is working on the project. I know that I, for one, would rather take a little more time to get the project done right than put out some half-assed attempt at my favorite campaign setting. And, the method we're using? It works. The book IS coming together.

If it bothers you that much, go make your own damn book.

Oh, and folks who want to get involved? Don't give up... you may yet get your chance.

Don't look for me to post again on this subject, 'cuz I'm not going to. Finis.

[Eosin the Red]

> Personally, I think folks are getting a few steps ahead of themselves, and
are taking this entire "Us against them" thing a gorgon`s toe too far.


I think the us vs them attitude is fostered in part by the inner council. If
you all do not want to talk about it, do not talk about it. If you do want
to talk about it, make regular reports, show some sneak peeks. I get tired
of hearing: "this takes a long time. It will be done when it gets done." Not
speaking from ignorance, I put out the netbook for the Wheel of Time game
and the second is coming down the pike - I know what goes into fan creation
and I know it is a real pain in the hind end. A project like this should
never be measured in years, 6-9 months, you bet. The delay causes anxiety.
The tight fistedness with content and direction causes more anxiety. People
do not want to play Birthright is 9 months, they want to play today. The
Wheel of Time netbook had a natural born PIMP getting out and talking to
people while the work was getting done. Maybe you should consider the same?
It sure helped everybody cool their jets when we were 40 days late. I don`t
really have much bones about it, I am fairly new to this community and don`t
really see all that much wrong with Dooms conversion?

I will say that in frustration over the groups absence/silence, you have set
yourself up with two different conflicts and a potential for a third.
1) Others must forge ahead on their own. Once you have the PBeM or your own
home game all made up you do not want to have to convert, again. If your
rules don`t agree with those made up by the PBeM folks than they will blow
them off. Causing further division to the small Birthright community.
2) Those who do not forge ahead will be stuck with 3 options. Play in 2E,
use a nonstandard conversion of 3E, or quit and play something else. By
dragging, instead of biting the bullet and revising as needed, you do the
effort more harm than good.
3) The dragon article that "update the 3E Birthright rules" should have been
a warning shot across you bow. Many companies are looking for something to
turn around and make a quick buck off of. Birthright is one such property.
If WotC sells the property, I doubt that they would like competition for the
IP they have paid money to license. Personally, I would like to see Green
Ronin pick up the rights and publish a new Birthright, barring that I would
like to see Rich Baker license it and put out new stuff himself or under an
umbrella such as SSS. Both could happen with relatively little notice.

To re-iterate - from a newbees point of view, the BR team has set itself up
for failure on several points. I have read stuff from all of you guys (I
think) and feel confident that I will be happy with what comes out, but my
experience that being tightlipped and rebuffing all questions is endearing
you to the masses.

(Dan Mcsorley had a good point earlier).

Final note on this comment:
>>>>In fact, I`ve heard of more people *leaving* the list because there is
always an endless stream of debate.

There are some on this list who need to triple their doses of antipsychotic
meds. People actually engage these animals in conversation, rather than
heckling them for posting a dissertation on IQ. They scare me. I wonder when
was the last time they talked to a real person, other than the pizza guy. My
guess is that they do frighten people away from the list and are a detriment
to this community.

Later,

Eosin the Red

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eosin the Red" <Eosin_the_Red@COX.NET>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:10 AM

> People actually engage these animals in conversation, rather than
> heckling them for posting a dissertation on IQ.

Anyone who would quit the list because of an occasional technical post,
rather than adopting the much more obvious strategy of deleting or ignoring
messages that don`t interest them are not likely to be valuable contributors
to the whole community. I would prefer that the delete key be excercised
quite a bit before ad hominem attacks are made. Those of an
anti-intellectual nature are particularly unlikely to merit my sympathies.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Hmmm, seems to me I posted an update just a few weeks ago . .

http://birthright.net/read.php?TID=1066

This discussion got lost because of its location - having to do with the net enhancements vice 3rd ed (see top of board).

I also pointed out that for comparison's sake that people should look at athas.org (and the DarkSun disscussion board at WotC) so see how another 3rd conversion project was going. Note that project was started just prior to the 3rd ed core books being released - my assumption is that they had pre release copies (probably through RPGA) but that their project is still no where near as complete. Much of that project teams' time seems to be spent in much discussion about things posted (previews) on the discussion boards. Also if you looked at their previews posted they were disjointed and referenced areas not yet published for review.

I also stated that bits and pieces would most probably cause much confusion and forward based discussions (and disagreements) with the areas not yet published, but being worked on, that they require to be complete.

We on the development team have had to go back several times and rework something because of the way it tied into a later section - imagine how that process would be bogged down if there were say 80 different opinions being chimed in on this process while the "original" fitting was still being tailored.

IMO it would be more productive if the residients on the Birthright.net had a semi-complete product to review rather than individual sections (or chapters). It would then be possible to see how the pieces meshed together and be able to playtest something more complete than an individual chapter. As Travis pointed out this type of product (for playtesting and other comments) should be available in January.

If anyone has doubts as to how a specific thread can digress into lengthy off topic discussions see the recent "dwarves" thread.

I also stated that people shouldn't think us rude if we don't answer all posts because it would detract from the time we could spend actually working on the project. See how much time and typing has been invested just here.


Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Ariadne

General question: What's with the posted articles on this page. Are those integrated in the official 3rd Edition book?

HELLO, may anybody be a gentleman and answer my question? Pleeeeeeeeeas....



By the way, I'm shure, there are different meanings about rules and the conversion, but I think, it might be discussed normally...

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Ellendael Nightstalker wrote:
> Mmm, is that the scent of sour grapes I smell, Daniel?

No, but thanks for asking, you pompous prick.

> Let me look at your complaints, Daniel. Maybe I should just drop
> everything, including the freelance work that pays my bills, to put
> together this book so you`ll be all happy-joy-joy. Oh, wait...
> that`d be IDIOTIC.

And apparently, right in line for you. Because what I`m suggesting is
that /more/ people be involved, not that the ones busy doing other things
work harder. Or, alternatively, that the 75% that is claimed to be done
get released. Neither of these things put any additional burden on you.

> You say the book isn`t for the fans.

No, I said it wasn`t `by` the fans. It`s `by` 5 or 6 guys. Right now
it`s not `for` anyone, since nothing has been released, but I accept the
premise that someday you intend to descend from your holy mountain and
render the word of the LORD unto us mere mortals.

> Think about logically, what`s more likely to get the book finished on
> time or early? Abuse and nonconstructive criticism? Bitching and
> whining? Or support?

We keep offering support, and people like you keep turning it down. And
you wonder why we think the team isn`t interested in the rest of the fans.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Eosin the Red]

>
> > People actually engage these animals in conversation, rather than
> > heckling them for posting a dissertation on IQ.
>
> Anyone who would quit the list because of an occasional technical post,
> rather than adopting the much more obvious strategy of deleting or
ignoring
> messages that don`t interest them are not likely to be valuable
contributors
> to the whole community. I would prefer that the delete key be excercised
> quite a bit before ad hominem attacks are made. Those of an
> anti-intellectual nature are particularly unlikely to merit my sympathies.
>

That is not intellectual conversation. You want to email 10 pages of smoke
and mirrors to make yourself feel better, feel free. BTW you used ad hominem
improperly. Ad hominem attack would imply that I was interested in the
merits of the conversation and sought to defeat it through personal attack.
I did not. The argument is irrelevant and trivial. I gladly accept what
every single one of you has said about IQ, totally and completely concede
that point. There is no argument from me. I do not care about the point you
were trying to make. I do not need 30 pages of research to tell me what I
need to know about my characters INT score. This is simply young men at
computers seeking to inflate their sense of self worth by posting more and
more "facts." It is overall detrimental to the community. If you think that
anyone who is not impressed with this kind of garbage in their inbox cannot
contribute to the community, the loss is yours not theirs. That is my
argument - best typified by your response.

Seeking to pound someone in the dirt with inflated technical jargon (like
you just tried) is exactly the kind of BS I expect from some of the folks on
the list. BTW I will let you look up your logical fallacy in the argument
that you presented in asserting [I do not appreciate your overly inflated
arguments = "I am not valuable to the community"]

Thanks, play verbal games somewhere else.

Eosin the Red

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne



Originally posted by Ariadne

General question: What's with the posted articles on this page. Are those integrated in the official 3rd Edition book?

HELLO, may anybody be a gentleman and answer my question? Pleeeeeeeeeas....



By the way, I'm shure, there are different meanings about rules and the conversion, but I think, it might be discussed normally...



Well, those articles were published by individuals that weren't necessarily involved in the BRCS development project. They have been reviewed as people publish them for ideas - remember that Arjan does very little to filter out what anyone posts so the articles are coming from many different viewpoints, none are wrong and none are right. They are just views of the same thing.

I hope that at least addresses the question, it did seem to get buried in the discussion/dissertations.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by irdeggman
(...) They have been reviewed as people publish them for ideas They are just views of the same thing (...)

This is not the right way of handling things here. These stuff is not meant just as IDEAS, I think people who published something in this net have spent a lot of work and did a great and detailed workout.

Does this mean you ignore the people in the net, all the Birthright-Fans around and brew your own potions in the D20-Team? Do you define a second-class-community?

I think you definitely should try a different approach with the articles.

[irdeggman]

I'm sorry that I seem to have been misquoted and misinterpreted.

What I meant was that each article was only on a single specific topic and not covering the overall concept of an integrated 3rd ed BRCS. They are indeed the germs of very careful and planned concepts. But they need to be looked at with an overview of the whole project not as a specific item that can just be inserted. As I pointed out earlier almost everything is related and this relation needs to be looked at carefully.

For example, there were several prestige classes posted. These are examples of specific ideas or concepts but not a complete addressing of the 3rd ed BRCS and they, as written, don't necessarily mesh with the rest of the project. Please don't read this as they never mesh, just that there are internal mechanics that should be preserved.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by irdeggman

For example, there were several prestige classes posted. These are examples of specific ideas or concepts but not a complete addressing of the 3rd ed BRCS and they, as written, don't necessarily mesh with the rest of the project (...)

Why, please explain. Who defines the concept of the project?

Please also refer to my comment in the different thread:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1115

[Lord Grave]

>
> They don`t want help. Despite 3e having been out for quite
> some time, and no BR to show for it, they don`t want any more
> people to actually do work. Frankly, at this point you`re
> better off doing your own conversion.
> --
>

I am sure that all of us would love to do the work. However, what would
a campaign setting created by so many people look like?

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Arjan]

Originally posted by Lord Grave

However, what would a campaign setting created by so many people look like?



Forgotten realms?

[kgauck]

Deciding which posts are interesteing and which are just noise will differ
between different list members. I found Ryan`s long post on intelligence
useful, interesting, and convincing. No post, no matter how compelling,
will be all things to all people. Hence, judicious use of the delete key
is to be prefered to a screed which attacks the age, self worth, education,
or vocabulary of the author. This remains the better course whether or not
you are interested in the content of the post.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Eosin the Red]

Thanks Kenneth,

My first post was said half in jest - half in exasperation. I like these
type of conversations as much as the next guy but find that they get carried
a little too far on this list. I even added fuel to the fire in the thread
on half-elves. Having said that, could you imagine being new to the list and
seeing these posts in your first day or two? It would terrify me, I might
suspect that I had signed up for some uber scientist list instead of a
role-playing one. But, I agree that no post is all to everyone. I think that
some of these uber-science topics are better carried off list.

The tone was insulting....ok, I admit it. Apology for the heckling.

The point remains (without insults) - these conversations and the
condescending tone of 50% of the poster/list members (me included, at least
occasionally) is bad for the game, bad for the list, and ultimately bad for
the individuals who want to play Birthright.

This does not just apply to the IQ thread and the other overly argued
aggressive topics but also to half of the folks who answer for the BRDVT.
Those who love Birthright the most seem to want to shoot themselves in the
foot on a fairly regular basis.

This list can compete with some of the most notorious boards & REC lists for
bad behavior, insular population, and overly dramatic & "high falutin"
speech.

So, how does one go about correcting that?

I was going to exercise the delete button on your post, sight unseen. I am
glad I didn`t.

Later,

Eosin the Red


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: delete ante bellorum [18#1107]


> Deciding which posts are interesteing and which are just noise will differ
> between different list members. I found Ryan`s long post on intelligence
> useful, interesting, and convincing. No post, no matter how compelling,
> will be all things to all people. Hence, judicious use of the delete key
> is to be prefered to a screed which attacks the age, self worth,
education,
> or vocabulary of the author. This remains the better course whether or
not
> you are interested in the content of the post.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> kgauck@mchsi.com
>
>
************************************************** **************************
> The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
> Birthright-l Archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
>

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[doom]

> ... here`s an open letter to the Birthright community addressing a
> four major issues/groups; the 3e BR conversion team, those who have
> criticized them, the general content for the Birthright list/message
> boards, and the recent spate of personal attacks.

Gary,

Firstly, thank you for intelligently and dispassionately summarizing
these issues. I would like to add some comments (and apologia) to
the list as the whole. In case the matter is in doubt, I (like every
other person on the d20 BR team) am only speaking for myself, not for
the group/team as a whole. Any comments from the team as a whole
come through Arjan (who is our elected spokes-model).

> To the 3e BR design team:
> Several responses to the criticism that have been
> made so far have ranged from the petulant to the outright obnoxious
> [snip] Secondly--and this is one I`d really like to you think about--the
> objections raised by a few folks regarding the handling of the 3e
> conversion project are not without merit. There has been a rather
> high-handed/heavy-handed approach to the process. The lack of progress
> reports or previews fosters the impression that you have little or no
> interest in hearing from the community and that you`ve created a sort of
> "inner circle" that presumes to dictate to the rest of us.

I believe that perhaps why the people on the design team are touchy
is that the criticism has not directed at the project`s _work_ (since
it has not been released for pre-review) but instead at the
individuals themselves for their relative silence on the matter.
In fact, this criticism should not be directed at the individuals of
the group, but rather _the_ individual who is primary responsible for
the policy. To whit, me.

Having seen many academic projects die in over-large committees, it
was my call (with the support of the team as a whole) to _not_
release the work until a complete play-test draft was complete. The
Thus, any problems that this have caused, should, in all truth, be
directed entirely at me, and not at the other members of the team.
The members of the team are members of the list at large who have
voluntered their time to serve as a small committe in order to expite
the work. In other-words, I feel that any heavy/high-handedness
precieved from the team is entirely my fault, for which I appolgize
to the list.

It was certainly not my intention to foster discord. In fact, this
recent thread is the first I can recall in which this policy received
substantial negativity. It was my question regarding that perceived
negativity that may have sparked the flames. Although this was not
my intent, I do feel responsible and again apologize.

So.... what to do now. First allow me to explain the current
"policy". It was (and remains) my opinion that there are _many_ ways
in which to do an excellent d20 BR conversion. It was the team`s
intent to create a "complete" draft of a conversion that the list at
large could review and play-test followed by a group-wide discussion
in which _everyone_ could suggest partial or total revisions to the
document by making "replacement drafts" for sections of the
document. Once the document is scoped, making "replacement drafts"
for sections is relatively easy. Before such scoping is complete,
chaos can insue. It seems to me that the complete draft mechanism is
a more efficient use of everyone`s time rather than going to the
group as a whole and getting comments on each section at a time.
This is also why I did not support release previews. Releaseing
previews would give the impression that the document was a "done
deal", when, in fact, the entire document is a "preview" - once the
document is released, it will take significant time to make the many
necessary to make it the best document that we (as a group) can
create. Only _then_ will it be "official". Not releasing "previews"
did not seem to be a concern to me, given that there wasn`t really
any interest in getting a whole team together for the project until a
year 3e was released. Rather, it seems that release previews would
just start the discussion phase earlier, which would slow down
completion of the project as a whole.

I still believe this to be true, but this work is _not_ intended to
be the work of a "small" portion of the list. IMHO, this work _can
not_ be considered official without the sanction of a majority of the
_entire_ list. If the list, as a whole, feels that its needs are
better met by starting the discussion prior to having a complete
draft, then the team as a whole would be thrilled to have people
start discussing the pre-drafts and incorporating any new/better ideas
immediately. However, it remains _my_ opinion that if this process
begins before the work is entirely scoped out that we have a serious
potential for running into the same problems that crippled athas.org.

My opinion is just that, an opinion. The important thing is what
the list _as a whole_ wants. I`ve created a poll under the
conversion news section of BR.net. Would _everyone_ please take
a moment over the course of the next week to make your opinion
known on that thread? Progress will continue as suggested by
the majority opinion.

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Green Knight]

Hi

I say we let them work in whatever manner they like, they are using of their own time and energy here. Besides, the concensus thing was attempted back in the Days Before Deismaar, but got us exactly...nothing...so is not an option IMO.

But I must say I`m very eager to have a sneak peak...

Bjørn

Cheers
Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------
WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no
-------------------------------------------------

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[PCyric]

First of all let me declare my status as a player. I am a fan of the RPG products as a whole. I am proud of being a fan, and I am proud that I have not been a part of the production of an official product on the RPG community. This has helped me greatly in maintaining a level of humility, and respect for the others.
I won't get into the "technical" stuff of the project. I resent anything official, and I try to judge a material on what it contains, and not its front page, or title. I won't even bother to propose anything regarding the way the project should be completed, even though I believe that the title "Fan product" should be MUCH MORE important than the title "OFFICIAL PRODUCT". And if you ask me, I would say: yes, by all means RISK the project by releasing it to the whims of the fans, even if this might mean that the project MIGHT finish around the year 2250. At least my grand(^100) children will have a real fan product in their hands.
I won't say anything more regarding this subject. I do not wish to support the BRCS team, as I do not know what they are producing yet. I cannot support something "invisible" and "fey" as this project is. It is a rule in my life to grant my support on things I feel a part of, and on people I know and respect.
I will be more specific. Mr Doom has earned my respect even though I have not spoken personally with the man. However I see wisdom in his posts, and most importantly, I see a sensere WILL to find a golden rule, a way to make us all feel content, and active. Thus I wish him good luck with all my heart.
Mr Morgrammen has been an active member of the BR community, and his projects are well known and respected. This alone shows his worth. However I do not agree with his complaint, that he begins to understand how the producers in the WOTC feel. He cannot even grasp the feeling. Just visit the FR list Mr Morgrammen, and you will see AT LEAST 100 emails criticizing the famous works of Salvatore, saying that he is unable to work with others, he is pompous, and that his characters are poor and boring to say the least. It is obvious that I try to show the general feeling, and I have not used the exact phrases used. The reaction of RA Salvatore was not what you would everyone think:" HE simply endured the criticism, and said nothing". Thus you are not even at the beginning of this journey... The fact is that you chose to bear this burden, and now you have to endure the criticism stoically, not complain about this. You knew that this would happen sooner or later, especially since you chose to keep the project's contents a secret. However I believe that you have great abilities as a creator, and thus I wish you good luck.
Mr Hoskins and Mr Lawgiver did not take an active role in this "internal war", thus I do not wish to comment on them. I know that Mr Hoskins has offered a lot in the RPG community, and I am certain that he has all the knowledge needed to further the project. I do not personally know Mr Lawgiver's abilities, though I know that he is one of the most active personalities in the BR community. Good luck to you too.
Regarding the infamous Mr Ellendael Nightstalker, I have to say that he is the sole reason that proves my point at the beginning of the message. "I am proud of being a fan, and I am proud that I have not been a part of the production of an official product on the RPG community. This has helped me greatly in maintaining a level of humility, and respect for the others." These were my exact words, and if anyone reads his message in the previous page, he will understand them completely. I feel that as a fan I have been greatly offended by his tone, without reason and provocation. I won't reply because I simply retain a level of self-respect that I won't lose now.

Last but not least Mr Arjan, I completely disagree that BR will become FR if all of us contributed to the project. FR has a 3rd edition conversion that every single one of the fans of the FR setting has expressed a positive opinion on, regarding its plots, creativity, and most importantly, the content. Its success has been after all a reason why we all bothered to see a product of its quality in BR. Lets face it, and not try to lessen its real worth.

This message of protest is just what I felt and believed about everything that happened in this thread. I am happy to see those opinions surface, as I believe that everyone who has been a part of it has shown his true self, and his thoughts. And this is just what proves my original thesis. That the title "official" is a curse you wished to take on your shoulders. I hope that now some understand that the "official" can never become "by the fans and for the fans". The fans never love and embrace products that are not a part of them. They never support creations that they didn't "use their keyboard" on. Plain and simple. This discussion proves my point.

I senserely hope I am the only one who utters those words:"I won't bother myself with the BRCS 3rd edition any more, for my own <OFFICIAL> reasons".

This is my personal opinion, and my views on the facts and the persons implicated are purely subjective. I feel dissapointed and bitter, but not at all angry.

Good Luck to you all!

[irdeggman]

PCyric, I feel left out. Everyone else seems to have been mentioned, well Mark Aurel wasn't either but he wasn't involved in the "discussion".

I do hope that when and in whatever means the community decides (see poll) the starter "rules" the development group has come up you will change your mind and actively participate in the discussion and suggestion cycle that will follow. This will most surely be a lively and enlightening discussion with many ideas and concepts that weren't previously thought of being brought to bear.([_]

[Caine]

Just to add my thrupenny bit...:P

I'd like to say that this thread is a little intoxicating.

When I first read that an 'official' birthright 3ed conversion was
in the tubes I was really delighted & looked forward to any news
about it whatsoever.

Reading the posting here and on associated threads it quickly became
apparent that the people who were giving a regular portion of their time
weren't working on some sort of uber-text that would lay all other conversions
to rest (I didn't think that anyone on the team was so arrogant to think that.
I may be naive but it doesn't hurt to think well of people who may be doing
me a favor.) but an attempt to create a complete conversion as well as they
could.
Now there is no way that I will agree with everything they do unless reality is
just trying to weird me out. But having played Birthright from 2nd Ed. through
enumerable extra rules both from the net and of my own & friends' concoction
to finally, Travis' 3.08 conversion (great stuff Dr. Doom. Thanks) I think I'm
going to grit my teeth & wait for the first release. January come swiftly...

The roundabout point I'm trying to make is that at no point did I have to use
any of the rules presented me. Even the original source material had blind spots
and failings. Everything does.

I really look forward to seeing the first release of this conversion and hope to help
playtest and thus to some extent develop it. Any others that come out now or later,
I will want to do the same for.

The baggage of having the term 'Official' appended to is, IMO, window dressing.
Like 'Original' the word attaches greater significance to a thing. But what real
difference does it make to the content?

Birthright is many things to different people and intricate to boot. Having seen the complexity of the existing conversions, it does sort of make sense to want to focus on getting the thing built then tinker with it, if you're going to try and top the existing material.

I like Gary's (Birthright - L) suggestion that people who feel they have something to add post their ideas. Either for perusal by those working on conversions or towards making their own. Ultimately whatever the d20 design team come up with, it'll be their work for us, anything else is in their heads. If we really hate them/it we can always ignore them.

As a small note, I like the FR setting. It's mixed, diverse, chaotic, varied. Birthright isn't the same and I'm glad of that.

Please address any responses ment for me to my email address at jan_stanek@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks for reading.

([_]

[PCyric]

irdeggman, I just posted as a reply to the various posts in the thread that aroused my curiosity and helped me make my own assumptions, on the persons who are part of this project. I am sorry that I have left you out, but your posts did not "urge" me to press the "reply".
I am sure you have offered a few projects in the community, but I am not aware of them. I am not all-knowing after all, and I will not post my opinion on your work, since I am not the right person apparently.
I sencerely hope that the project will work, and will be embraced by the fans, but I sencerely doubt this. IF I am wrong, time will prove this. I won't hide however in that case. Iwill be here to admit that I was wrong.
After all it has happened once again, in the FRCS 3rd edition.

[Magian]

the adoption of the delete key works for me however it does get tiresome
after a long week not checking my email. ;)



>From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
> I would prefer that the delete key be excercised
>quite a bit before ad hominem attacks are made. Those of an
>anti-intellectual nature are particularly unlikely to merit my sympathies.
>
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com

A fallacy expert, wow, watch out when you argue with this guy.


ciao,


Paul

__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Fearless_Leader]

I've been watching the mailing list/ message boards for going on 5 years now... I don't often post or express my opinion here, largely because I prefer to listen to what everyone has to say and take what I believe are the best ideas and incorporate those into my own campaigns. I intend to do the same with the 3E rules once they come out.
I personally believe that it is better to have the entire project released at once, rather than in bit pieces. In this fashion, the entire document can be reviewed by the community at once and modified at that point in time. As long as this is done in a reasonable period of time, I don't have a problem with the 'closed' committee system. I believe January is a fairly reasonable timeframe in which to expect something. But even if it isn't out in January, I'm an understanding person... just so that reasonable time period doesn't extend into July of 2006.

And as for those who feel they're having 'dictates handed down to them from the Lord,' you're entitled to your opinions, but I just don't feel the same way. Most everyone on the d20 team that I am aware of are people whose opinions I've come to respect... and most of them have contributed quite a bit to the online community. So I have no real fear... and even if the whole thing turns out to be crap, so what... I only use the ideas I like anyway. I really can't understand some of the vitriole coming out of some people.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by irdeggman

For example, there were several prestige classes posted. These are examples of specific ideas or concepts but not a complete addressing of the 3rd ed BRCS and they, as written, don't necessarily mesh with the rest of the project. Please don't read this as they never mesh, just that there are internal mechanics that should be preserved.
What exactly doesn't fit with the "official" BR 3rd Edition conversion? It can't be so much (the domains ARE surely of those gods) and if it's only the requirement or something, this can be changed...

May you please give a statement?

[morgramen]

Originally posted by Fearless_Leader
... and even if the whole thing turns out to be crap, so what... I only use the ideas I like anyway. I really can't understand some of the vitriole coming out of some people.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am no longer on the mail list, so much of the discussion has passed without my notice, so it's likely that I have completley missed the angle all this is coming from. I will admit to being taken by surprise by this entire "spirited charge".
In reading the posts on BR.net, I am slowly beginning to see what everyone is trying to convey, but in the end, I (as an individual) must agree with Chris. This project is not, nor will it ever be, the end all and be all of Birthright 3E. Even if 99.9% of the online community stamps it's approval on it, it's still in the power of the individual to completely disregard the entire book and go with what they want. If some DM out there wants to have a ring of 3 wishes on the hand of every PC, more power to them! Not my style of play to be sure, but each to his own.

In my personal opinion, people are taking this entire thing a tad too seriously, and assigining more clout to it than it actually deserves. Personally, I think the entire event horizon began when the word "official" was applied to it. If the BRCS project had been titled "A Bunch of Guys Who Are Making a 3E Conversion", I doubt it would have gotten so much attention.

At any rate, each to his own, and more power to you all. Find what works for you, and go with it. As long as you're having fun, then it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

Now, onto other matters.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by doom

[...] My opinion is just that, an opinion. The important thing is what the list _as a whole_ wants. I`ve created a poll under the conversion news section of BR.net. Would _everyone_ please take a moment over the course of the next week to make your opinion known on that thread? Progress will continue as suggested by the majority opinion.
I've made my vote in your poll, but I couldn't reply it there, so I will try here. I voted for the first version, because I like as many opinions as possible (the difference to FR is, that all will be ready at once, not a little bit here and a little bit there). Since the conversion seems to be partly ready, I would find it cool to see the work chapter by chapter (all at once might be confusing, if you want to give your comment). Someone of the BR-team said, the new "official" rules are as close to the 3rd Edition rules, as possible, but I think, much of it can be interpreted, so a preview is useful! This is my personal opinion...

[Ariadne]

Err, folks... Where is doom's poll? Closed? If it is only skipped somewhere, please give the link...

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne


Err, folks... Where is doom's poll? Closed? If it is only skipped somewhere, please give the link...


I asked him about that just earlier this week. It seems that this board and Travis don't get along too well, frequently (or at least it seems so) something happens to his posts (he says he hit the wrong key) and they vanish.

I'll ask him again to repost it. He did ask Arjan if it was possible to do a "restore" to get it back without having to start the poll all over again.

[doom]

On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 10:38:56AM +0100, Ariadne wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1107
> Ariadne wrote:
> Err, folks... Where is doom`s poll? Closed? If it is only skipped somewhere, please give the link...

Not so much closed, as clobbered. Apparently the e-mail that I posted
with it showed up as three different messages. In the processes of
attempting to clean it up, I deleted the entire thread. Sorry
about that. I`m an old school usenet & e-mail user. Every web
systems has their own unique interface and I`m not entirely up to
speed on the damage that I can do on this one yet.

We might as well consider the poll closed. ;) The results at the time
of the deletion were 16 for "release a finished work" and 9 for
"chapter-by-chapter". Its a slight majority for the current approach,
but not an overwhelming landslide (not even quite 2/3rd). The current
plan is still to split the difference; a "complete" but "unfinished"
d20 rulebook will be posted in January and the entire community will be
encouraged to make edits, suggestions for additions/deletions/changes,
and eventually vote for sanctioning the work.

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.