Administration Prof. (read below before voting)

[Lawgiver]

According to the rules in the boxed set:

Administration: A character skilled in administration understands the workings of the apparatus of government and the governmental heirarchy. Versed in the responsibilities of the various arms and offices of his land, the character knows which officals can get things done. A regent character can, on a successful proficiency check, reduce his maintenance costs by 25% (rounded down) every domain turn. With a successful check, he can also use this skill to reduce the base Gold Bar cost of any domain action by 1.


My question is: Does this mean that the player can reduce the costs of maintaining military units or only the costs associated with the maintenance of their provinces and holdings?

[Lord Eldred]

Your phrasing of the question makes the choices irrelevent. It is not a yes-no question it is an either or question. Therefore I voted "I voted". I would say that it lowers the costs of military also because it is your administrative costs. You are good at cutting the cost of supplying your units.

[Lawgiver]

okay clarrification:
-Vote yes if the player can reduce the costs of maintaining military units
-Vote No if only the costs associated with the maintenance of their provinces and holdings

[Perhelion]

I voted 'No' because although I agree that logically military costs could perhaps be reduced by good administration, any would be conqueror would rush to take the skill and therefore make it a 'must have'. I think that the benefits of having a stable economy and efficient civil servants should be enough to make the skill worthwhile (and it still saves money for the army). It is a civilian oriented skill more than a militarily oriented one.
Perhaps a separate skill (or feat?) could be devised to reduce military costs, by inspiring the troops and encouraging them to fight for god, king and/or country. Most great military commanders who could raise great armies do not seem to my eyes to have been great administrators, just great leaders of men.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I agree fully Perhelion.By having the Administration skill,you save money on the civilian-side,which means more GB's for new units,upgrades,fortifications,roads,etc.,etc,etc.. ...

[Xander]

Sign Xander up for the administration nwp. We all know he needs as much help solving the income v. outgo problem he can get!!;)

[blitzmacher]

I fully and completely disagree with Perhelion, the military in most countries are very big into administration, more so than in the civillian world. Believe me I've been in both worlds and the military one has the most administration I have ever seen. I think the skill should work within both sections of Domain maintenance, a good military administration roll should be able to streamline units and make them efficient in their spending of their upkeep. Although the U.S. has had some trouble in trying to streamline their own military goes to show that sometimes you fail the roll

[Lawgiver]

I limit it to Province and Holding Maintenance only. I view the Military costs as more tied to salaries and food then to administration. You can't budget and limit salaries. Troops don't get paid by the hour. Food is generally fairly rationed to a fixed amount. As far as the cost of maintaining barracks, stables, taining facilities, etc. the labor is free (make the troops do it... ask anyone who has served in the military...). I find it hard to justify a regent being able to save 25% of costs with an administrative roll.

[Lord Eldred]

The inefficiencies that run in most modern armies should be convincing enough that a good administrator could cut those costs. I still disagree with you Lawgiver!

[Lawgiver]

Modern armies are filled with bureaucracy. Such red tape and logistical chaos wouldn't exist. Additionally Modern armies are SIGNIFICANTLY larger then the number of troops for a realm, even one with an army like Avan. With the smaller realms of 800-1600 troops its a little difficult to 'misplace' or 'misuse' 2,000-8,000 gp. consistently and not find a few commanders lining their pockets.

[Lord Eldred]

I again disagree the armies of hold had as much red tape and problems of the armies of today. The reduced size doesn't mean it was small. Plus communication problems. Inability to supply properly. Still have all the same problems of a modern army.

Tell me the difference between running an army and running a city. Give me the distinct problems that exist that make you think administration costs are different!

[blitzmacher]

The military is like looking at our world in a fishbowl. Everything that happens in our society also occurs in the military. From every problem to every solution, if it affects one it will inevitably affect the other. The civillian side has just as much bureaucracy and red tape as the military, case in point Tax Seasons coming up!

[Lord Eldred]

Thanks for the back up Blitzmacher!

[blitzmacher]

Your welcome.

[Lawgiver]

Currently there are about 1.5 million people who serve in the active Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard, their Reserve components, and the Air and Army National Guard U.S. That doesn't even begin to cover the number of support personal and civilian labor force that works with the military.

1.5 million is a little larger than 800-1,600 (4-8 units). Thus the red tape of the present day military is just a wee bit more (;)) than that the military in Birthright. Having a single leader or small group in charge of 1.5 million and maintaining order--not likely. Maintaining order in 800-1600 people is far more probable.

Additionally the 'laws' in the military tends to be much more strictly and swiftly enforced than in the civilian world, regardless of time period. When someone screws up they are generally punished quickly. The mistakes tend to diminish. If nothing else, with less than 100 officers in such a small army it wouldn't take nearly as long to find someone to blame and 'remedy' the situation! A good commander wouldn't simply allow a waste of 25% of expenses to exist for long without losing his command.

[Perhelion]

I'd imagine that in an army of the type we're talking about the most waste would likely be caused by corruption and other hand-outs. I'm fairly certain that very few soldiers would actually be professionnal soldiers, the rest being conscripted or briefly enticed into the army by poverty or the opportunity to loot a town or two. Most of the professionnal soldiers might also depend on a religious group or maybe a knightly order, both of which would need placating with generous bribes. Therefore to reduce the costs, it is likely that it would be necessary to bind to your service a dedicated and loyal army of volunteers, which would be take leadership and charisma more than administration.

[blitzmacher]

Lawgiver, I suppose you would be right if cerilia had access to computers. Size of modern armies is a lot larger than medievil armies for a reason. Medievil armies didn't have access to the higher population levels of today, modern technology, or the amount of money that we can throw into an army. If they did they would have the same sized armies we have today. Modern numbers may be bigger but the percentage is still the same.
Also that civilian labor force that works with the military, since they're civilian do they get the admin. roll?
As for military law it takes approx. the same time to process trials as civilian. The difference being that there are a lot more laws that can be enforced, and they tend to be handled quicker if it was a minor offense where the unit can take care of it with less then judicial means to try to keep the indivduals record from getting ruined with a stupid mistake that wouldn't be a crime in the civilian world. This would be like giving the bird to a military policeman, in the civilian world nothing would happen to you, in the military if they wanted to be real pricks you could recieve up to 2 yrs heavy labor. As for wasting 25% of expenses, even todays military gives awards to soldiers who come up with ways to do things cheaper i.e. admin. roll.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher
Modern numbers may be bigger but the percentage is still the same.
Ghoere (which is only the 3rd largest military) has 400% more active military than the U.S. if you do the math. (Its sad that I took the time to do that...).

[warlord_nabron]

Maintenance costs are maintenance costs -- the entire total is what the 25% reduction applies to. Otherwise, the proficiency is meaningless: Maintenance costs for provinces and holdings doesn't reach 4 GB until you have 19-24 of them in your domain. If you've got so large a domain, why would you spend one of your slots for a chance to save a single GB every four months?

[blitzmacher]

I think Warlord_Nabron said it pretty good using a lot less words then myself, I thought I was windy.
As for Lawgiver, it may be sad to do the math, but at least you have the time to do it.

[Lord Eldred]

Given your math does that mean you concede once again Lawgiver?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Given your math does that mean you concede once again Lawgiver?

On the contrary! With the money I saved on the successful Administration of my troops I have mustered more men and plan to be at the doorstep of your capital city by dawn! :P

[brownie]

If money is so much to you and you as an emporer or regent can not afford everything you need. Maybe if you have a good Guilder(like me) they are willing to help pay costs for other special favors. Maybe using the emporers invnetor for things or being the out right guilder in the area and any land they conquer. Eliminating other guilds and other things.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by brownie
If money is so much to you and you as an emporer or regent can not afford everything you need. Maybe if you have a good Guilder(like me) they are willing to help pay costs for other special favors. Maybe using the emporers invnetor for things or being the out right guilder in the area and any land they conquer. Eliminating other guilds and other things.

What pray tell are you babbling about?

[blitzmacher]

The world may never know

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Even though I beleive they purposely left the tie-ins from BR to the late Medieval Era in our own world vague,it is still there.I beleive the developers made the system like they did for ease of gameplay.

With that being said allow me to explain what the REAL difference between the armies of Robert the Bruce differs from our own modern day military.BR is based on a feudal system,aye???And exactly what is a feudal syatem??A king owns land,some of which he doles out to others to administer.Then those dole out some of their land to others,who dole out some of it,etc,etc,etc.All of this done with an oath of Fealty,which entails a yearly tax to be paid to the lord above you,and a promise to send troops in times of war.BR is such a system.It is never really fleshed out much,but it is there.Regents are not the only nobles.Blooded are not the only nobles.There are commoner nobles.

Now some of you are saying,"Riegan,what the hell does that have to do with anything?!?!?!?!"Slow down my son,"When in Rome.....".But then you'll say,"But I am not in Rome....".

I am rambling.......

Anywho........When as the regent you muster,say a unit of infantry,you will raise and equip,say ten men.Then you would tell the lords under you that you need blah number of men,who tell the lords under them that they need such-and-such number of men,etc.,etc.,etc.So in actuality,you as the Baron of Roesone are not actually mustering 200 men,you are only mustering and maintaining a fraction of it.Lesser lords take care of the rest.


Now what exactly does Administration proficiency mean??It means you kinow when and where and who to get to do certain jobs.It means you know which lords to lean on to get something.You make sure you are not being gouged by the merchants.You know which lords are not too forthcoming on paying their salt taxes(The payment a lord pays to his higher up).And quite frankly how to use the various laws to get something for nothing.

Despite popular belief the only places that held space specifically for housing troops were castles.If a city or other location to be garrisoned did not have a castle,the civilian population had to put them up.So a poor peasant family that could barely afford to feed themselves had to feed a couple of more hungry mouths and most often the case were NOT compensated for it(there is a term for this practice but for the life of me I cannot recall it!!).

[Kerio]

My reasons for voting NO ...

... while the administration proficiency does grant (if successful) a 25% reduction in maintenance costs, these are only a fraction of the domain expenditures each turn -- you still have the Payroll (which covers military units) and Court costs.

In addition, the administration proficiency grants a savings (again if successful) on any domain action including mustering of troops.

Some anaylsis ...

Average mustering cost -- 3GB
Average payroll -- 1.5GB

Assuming that there is only one troop per province/holding, at what point would the payroll savings essentially eliminate the other administration costs at an average of 1GB per 3 provinces/holdings?

25% of 1.5GB => 0.375GB per military unit

THEREFORE, if you included the military payroll into the domain maintenance costs which the administration proficiency reduced -- those regents will large standing armies wouldn't have to worry about their administration costs as the payroll deductions would more than cover them.

ADD to this that it costs less to raise the troops in the first place and the proficiency becomes a necessity for any regent when compared to the other new proficiencies -- rather than just advantageous.

[warlord_nabron]

Your "analysis" is faulty on several points:

1. Muster armies is a "free" action rather than a "domain" action, and the Administration proficiency only reduces the cost of "domain" actions. Read the section that defines actions ("Types of Actions") and the description of the Administration proficiency ("New Proficiencies").

2. The GB's spent *maintaining* army units, *maintaining* a court, *maintaining* fortifications, *maintaining* occupations in foreign provinces, and *maintaining* your own provinces and holdings ARE domain maintenance. Read the section that defines domain maintenance ("Pay Domain Maintenance").

3. BR accounting does not involve numbers smaller than 1 GB.

"Average mustering cost"? "Average payroll"? The rest of the post is meaningless. It's not a question of "if" you calculate payroll into the domain maintenance costs -- it's a question of whether you follow the rules; adding the costs to maintain all the various parts of your domain to arrive at a grand total "domain maintenance" figure and shaving 25% off that figure (if successful) is exactly what the rules proscribe.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by warlord_nabron
Your "analysis" is faulty on several points:
2. The GB's spent *maintaining* army units, *maintaining* a court, *maintaining* fortifications, *maintaining* occupations in foreign provinces, and *maintaining* your own provinces and holdings ARE domain maintenance. Read the section that defines domain maintenance ("Pay Domain Maintenance").

3. BR accounting does not involve numbers smaller than 1 GB.

2. I know what the rules say I was asking if people used the rule or thought that it should be used.
3. The rules may not but I usually go down to the half and depending on the action go down to the quarter (throwing away 5000 gp isn't very realistic in my opinion!). Beyond the quarter the math isn't worth the effort.

Speaking of quarters...
[quote]Orginally posted by Riegan Swordwraith
So a poor peasant family that could barely afford to feed themselves had to feed a couple of more hungry mouths and most often the case were NOT compensated for it(there is a term for this practice but for the life of me I cannot recall it!!).

The term you are looking for is quarter or quartering. It was one of the list of greivences in the U.S. Declaration of Independence.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

That's the one I'm loking for........It has been driving me nuts not remembering!!!:)

[Sellenus]

I voted yes.

My vote was not because of the arguements FOR or AGAINST. I think both sides have made very valid points. I voted yes for the ease of game play. Domain maintenance is totaled on a small line on my domain record sheet. I like the idea of trying to administrate that number, rather than working with sub-totals and such. Who needs more paperwork? Or maybe I'm just dumb and lazy!:)

[Lord Valkyr]

I used the skill only for the Govt upkeep side. I figured the cost of the troops is for 3 months of food & pay. which in common with todays grunts just isnt that much........

[Lord Eldred]

Even the cost of food and pay can very and thus can benefit from the skill. I still think the upkeep of military includes more that would benefit from the skill.

[Elijah]

I voted yes. Both sides presented valid arguments and personally I am uncomfortable with allowing the skill to cover military units only because it might make the nwp too powerful. But, logically, the Administration skill should cover army units. There's a lot of administrating to do for armies, as anyone who's been in an army will know! And the ruling is quite clear that it covers all administrative costs, including that of army units.

But it's up for individual DMs to decide. If they think players are going to run riot with this rule, they shouldn't allow it to cover army units.