Gross Production/BR economic theory

[Birthright-L]

How much wealth is produced in a province every turn? Most of it is
unavailable to regents, because it gets distributed around in small
interpersonal transactions, and regents only skim off a chunk of it- some
goes to taxes, some in tithes to whatever church, some in kickbacks to the
guilders.

Does 1 GB/thousand people sound low? 2 gp per person per season, that`s
about 2 coppers a day of production per person. A common laborer earns a
sp a day- so would that mean he would produce 12 cp in valuable stuff
every day? Hmm, now I`m hitting the limits of my slim economic theory
knowledge, I have to go read.

OK, done, so gross domestic product is all transactions, and isn`t that
useful for me. I want just the increase, I guess, in wealth over a period
of time. Does that even have a name? Because it`s that amount that I
imagine regents are pulling out of, otherwise the people would be slowly
whittled away down to no money at all, and revert to subsistance farming.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 4:06 PM


> OK, done, so gross domestic product is all transactions, and isn`t that
> useful for me. I want just the increase, I guess, in wealth over a period
> of time. Does that even have a name? Because it`s that amount that I
> imagine regents are pulling out of, otherwise the people would be slowly
> whittled away down to no money at all, and revert to subsistance farming.

The word you are looking for is "surplus". A hundred farmers plant crops.
They produce sufficient crops to feed 125 families. The temple demands 10%,
the lord demands 8%. The hundred families have 102 families worth of food
and seed. The temples and lords use their portion to feed specialists,
including craftsmen and clerks.

We say that the surplus is extracted by non-producers who offer some service
(justice, protection, salvation, healing, distribution, &c) in exchange for
the products surrendered.

Subsistance farming means that nearly all the food produced is consumed, and
that`s true for most farming until the 19th century when farm tools become
mechanized. The surplus is typically pretty small. The subsistance portion
is pretty large. In the example above, 80% of the produce is subsistance.
In less advanced societies, the elite may demand less, but get first choice
of land, or reserve certain resources to themselves (deer, forests, boar,
&c).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > OK, done, so gross domestic product is all transactions, and isn`t that
> > useful for me. I want just the increase, I guess, in wealth over a period
> > of time. Does that even have a name? Because it`s that amount that I
> > imagine regents are pulling out of, otherwise the people would be slowly
> > whittled away down to no money at all, and revert to subsistance farming.
>
> The word you are looking for is "surplus". A hundred farmers plant crops.
> They produce sufficient crops to feed 125 families. The temple demands 10%,
> the lord demands 8%. The hundred families have 102 families worth of food
> and seed. The temples and lords use their portion to feed specialists,
> including craftsmen and clerks.
>
> Subsistance farming means that nearly all the food produced is consumed, and
> that`s true for most farming until the 19th century when farm tools become
> mechanized. The surplus is typically pretty small.

OK, so where does all the money come from then? A level 10 province can
generate:
province: 2d10+2
guild 6: 2d4+2
guild 4: d6+1
temple 6: 2d4+2
temple 4: d6+1
4 trade routes to another province (10): 5 GB apiece (if half is generated
at the other end).

76 GB in income every turn.

A province (9) generates 61.5 GB by the same formula.

That`s a lot of income. I could buy that it`s not all surplus, since it`s
high taxes and those start to make the people less loyal, but there`s
still a lot of income there turn after turn. Where does it all come from?

Interesting.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Lawgiver]

76 GB = 152,000 gp
152,000 gp = 1,520,000 sp
1,520,000 sp per season/3 = 506,667 sp per month
506,667 sp/100,000 citizens = 5.06667 or sp per month that are collected through taxes, guilds, temples, etc.

Assuming each citizen produces 30 sp in a month you get to keep 83.3333 % as a common citizen (assume 5 sp collected by outside sources).

Basically 1/6 of your income goes to the crown, guilds, temples etc in your example of 1 sp = 1 days wages. Assuming my math is correct. :P

Of course not all citizens in the 100,000 for a level 10 provinces are producers. You have the aged, children, ill, handicapped, slaves, prisons, etc. Unless of course you simply assume that the popluation level given for a province relates solely to the popluation that participates in the GDP of a country. For the time period it may not be unrealistic of an assumption.

Of course on the opposite side you also have the wealthy mercantile that are producing significantly more than the 1 sp per day assumption.

Additionally, some of it may be considered to be overlapping funds that simply change hands behind the scenes. The guilds pays taxes, the church may pay guilds, the crown may tax churches & guilds (depends on how you play with the Law Claim rules). This would result in a lower actual production, but a higher $ on paper simply due to the transfer of wealth.

[Eric Saxon]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

OK, so where does all the money come from then? A level 10 province can
generate:
province: 2d10+2
guild 6: 2d4+2
guild 4: d6+1
temple 6: 2d4+2
temple 4: d6+1
4 trade routes to another province (10): 5 GB apiece (if half is generated
at the other end).

76 GB in income every turn.

A province (9) generates 61.5 GB by the same formula.

That`s a lot of income. I could buy that it`s not all surplus, since it`s
high taxes and those start to make the people less loyal, but there`s
still a lot of income there turn after turn. Where does it all come from?

Interesting.




Ok, it seems that some of you have not read their Birthright material, fully. When you receive 76GB, that is not 152,000 gp.

THAT'S RIGHT, not CASH.

So, what exactly is it?

Well, most of it is finished goods, livestock, ingots of iron and copper, wood, a building built, that can be rented by the lord, a wearhouse full of cloth or a granary brimming with grain. It says this in the main rulebook, it also says that you can exchange some of that into pure cash, but the more you do it, the more likely you are to face inflation and other domestic problems.(DM's choice) So, when you pay your soldiers, you are not actually spending 2,000gp for a unit of archers, you are spending 1GB, which means, food, lodgings, timber for fires during winter and a bunch of other stuff, like beer and meat. The actual gps you are spending are very minimal.

[geeman]

At 11:50 PM 1/3/2003 +0100, Eric Saxon wrote:

>Well, most of it is finished goods, livestock, ingots of iron and copper,
>wood, a building built, that can be rented by the lord, a wearhouse full
>of cloth or a granary brimming with grain. It says this in the main
>rulebook, it also says that you can exchange some of that into pure cash,
>but the more you do it, the more likely you are to face inflation and
>other domestic problems.(DM`s choice)

Actually, what it says is that if a regent tries to convert funds (from GB
to gp) "too often, he devalues his currency and reduces the value of his
treasury to zero." Rather a hefty price to pay for exchanging currency,
especially since "too often" there would appear to mean more than once per
domain turn.

Where does it say in the Rulebook that a GB is actually the equivalent of
goods? It seems to indicate in several places (the finance action and the
Taxation, Collection, and Trade section on p41) that it really was meant to
represent 2,000gp, not the equivalent value in chickens and beer. It`s
fine to reinterpret GBs as a measurement of goods in storage rather than a
great big gold coin the size of a wagon wheel, but that doesn`t seem to be
what the original intent was.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Eric Saxon wrote:
> Ok, it seems that some of you have not read their Birthright material,
> fully. When you receive 76GB, that is not 152,000 gp.

Well, you`re pompous, aren`t you? But GB and gp both measure value, and
the surplus, which I have many times in the past referred to as coming in
in cabbage form, is measured somehow, and still needs to be produced.

And you neatly missed the entire point, that this surplus, no matter what
form it`s in, seems like quite a bit for regents to be pulling in, when
most of the people are subsistance level farming.

Thanks for answering though.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Eric Saxon wrote:

> When you receive 76GB, that is not 152,000 gp.

Of course.

> Well, most of it is finished goods, livestock, ingots of iron and
> copper, wood, a building built, that can be rented by the lord, a
> wearhouse full of cloth or a granary brimming with grain.

Sure. But it`s still an immensely huge amount of goods, livestock and
grain. The question is, how can a province have that much wealth (in
whatever form it is measured or transported) skimmed off its production
every season without being effectively pillaged?

> The actual gps you are spending are very minimal.

That is irrelevant to the question at hand.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:29 PM


> OK, so where does all the money come from then? A level 10
> province can generate: [...] 76 GB in income every turn.
>
> A province (9) generates 61.5 GB by the same formula.

A methodological points strait off. Since province 10`s and 9`s are so
rare, its hard to be on firm ground with those. Its much easier to
generalize about level 6 provinces, and still easier with level 3`s. But,
for argument`s sake, let`s suppose that a level 10 is just a bigger level 6,
an assumption that may or may not bear out.

Second, lets distinguish between extracting a surplus and redistributing a
surplus. When a temple extracts a surplus, they convert what ever they take
in into lavish temples, kryptographia, stained glass windows, magic items,
and other consumables and non-productive goodies. When a temple
redistributes a surplus, they pay workmen for labor, buy standard supplies,
or otherwise put their income right back into the economy. Most things a
ruler will do will involve some extraction and some redistribution.

Lawgiver estimated the value of such taxation as 16 and 2/3`s percent of
total production. Which is a pretty high figure, historically. That
probably explains the loyalty loss.

> That`s a lot of income. I could buy that it`s not all surplus, since it`s
> high taxes and those start to make the people less loyal, but there`s
> still a lot of income there turn after turn. Where does it all come from?

This gets into your presumed economy. What do you imagine it looks like?
You really have two choices, you can pick a real world model, and then
manipulate it to fit your campaign, or you can invent an economy from whole
cloth. Picking a real world ecnomy will tell you where the income comes
from. Then you have to figure out what game mechanic represents what you
see. For example, are customs a routine part of provincial taxation? Law
claims on guilds? or tribute paid? That depends on how routine you imagine
customs and such taxes are. IMO, law claims reflect using the courts to
obtain extraordinary income. Obviously, YMMV.

Here`s one for you. The state may claim 5 GB from a certain temple, but the
actual performance of that 5GB is actually the fact that most of the
bureaucrats of the state`s offices are templars. Just as we might imagine
that some taxes reflect a pool of peasant labor who build the roads, haul
the stone, and cut the lumber for the ruler, so too can the temple tax
actually be paid in labor, rather than coin. Again, part of the standard
revenue, a law claim, or a tribute? There is no right answer, a DM has to
figure this out based on each realm`s relationships. Some could choose to
be very standard, but others will describe every realm so different from the
one`s before it, that each realm has its own unique character.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Lawgiver wrote:

> Of course not all citizens in the 100,000 for a level 10 provinces are
> producers. You have the aged, children, ill, handicapped, slaves,
> prisons, etc. Unless of course you simply assume that the popluation
> level given for a province relates solely to the popluation that
> participates in the GDP of a country. For the time period it may not
> be unrealistic of an assumption.

This is interesting! It would help explain some of the missing people.
I suppose one could take "participates in the GDP" to mean "creates an
extractable surplus", which brings us fairly close to Starfox`s "level =
urbanization".

> Additionally, some of it may be considered to be overlapping funds
> that simply change hands behind the scenes. The guilds pays taxes,
> the church may pay guilds, the crown may tax churches & guilds
> (depends on how you play with the Law Claim rules). This would result
> in a lower actual production, but a higher $ on paper simply due to
> the transfer of wealth.

Economists` jargon for this is "velocity" -- the faster the same amount of
money circulates through the system, the higher the total wealth appears
to be (and effectively is), because you get to use the same money more
often. Since GB are only collected one season at a time, that should be
able to explain a significant fraction of it.

Cows don`t live forever, grain rots and labor cannot be saved up in
batteries, so even a regent with many GB in the treasury cannot really
have withdrawn that wealth from circulation -- because if it were
truly left static, it would cease to be wealth.


Ryan Caveney

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[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by ryancaveney
Cows don`t live forever, grain rots and labor cannot be saved up in
batteries, so even a regent with many GB in the treasury cannot really
have withdrawn that wealth from circulation -- because if it were
truly left static, it would cease to be wealth.


Yes, but what of property, landmarks, wine, statues, tapestries, paintings, jewelry, etc. Such possessions can actually appreciate in value rather than depreciate or deteriorate over the course of time. One’s wealth and treasury need not be bags of coins, nor does it need to be in perishable goods.

[Birthright-L]

I`ve been following this thread for some time now, and I just want to pipe
in now. The GB system was left abstract for a reason. It is well and fine
to try to generate all sorts of different tables, calculations, etc. for the
economic system; but the essence is that it was a simplified economy system
for a reason. The joy of Birthright isn`t statistics, economics, and
taxation; but ruling a shining/dark kingdom and sending forth your servants
and armies to do your will! Don`t over-reach the original too much, or you
lose sight of what it is all about. Just an opinion of mine though; if you
want to trudge thru hours of paperwork before you get down to taking on the
Gorgon, Spider, or Rhoubhe Manslayer then enjoy yourself. Me, I`ll be out
kicking butt and looting the enemy!

~Caelcormac of Rhoisneibhal
Grand Master of Lluabraight
Prince of the Downs Vassals
Master of the Hunt of the Elves

(aka Tony Edwards.....Joe-shmo in Virginia)

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawgiver" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:17 PM

> Yes, but what of property, landmarks, wine, statues, tapestries,
> paintings, jewelry, etc. Such possessions can actually appreciate
> in value rather than depreciate or deteriorate over the course of
> time. One`s wealth and treasury need not be bags of coins, nor
> does it need to be in perishable goods.

Ryan will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was refering to
productive wealth, as opposed to trapped wealth, whcih he called "static".
Of your examples above, only wine still has an economic use (as a
consumable). The rest are only trapped labor or objects of value.
Productive wealth is wealth that can produce more wealth. The classic
catagories are land, labor, and capital. Luxury items (and militaries for
that matter) are none of these. At least the wine has nutritional value.

A great deal of what nobles and templars produce is of no further economic
value. Crowns and stained glass windows have no ability to produce new
wealth. They may have important social roles (this man is in charge, that
window depicts his role model), but no real economic value. Looking over
most game actions, few of them are intended to produce new wealth. They are
consumptions of wealth. There are some notable exceptions (roads, for
example).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Lawgiver" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>
> > Yes, but what of property, landmarks, wine, statues, tapestries,
> > paintings, jewelry, etc. Such possessions can actually appreciate
>
> Ryan will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was refering to
> productive wealth, as opposed to trapped wealth, whcih he called "static".

Some of both. It is true that as Lawgiver says, some wealth is not
perishable, and therefore storable as-is -- everybody likes to hoard gold
when they can, and pawning the crown jewels to finance the war is a
time-honored tradition -- but it is also true that as Kenneth says, while
art may appreciate, land pays dividends. While regents who want to have a
large reserve for a rainy day may wish to keep a museum as a bank account,
there is always the difficulty of finding enough appropriate buyers on
short notice. This is, to a degree, represented in the Finance action:
mercenaries are not known for accepting paintings as payment, so you must
spend some time and effort looking for rich people with money to burn and
a desire to redecorate. I would almost say that "fine art" is actually
part of the GB expense of maintaining a court -- building Versailles gives
substantial bonuses to Diplomacy, but is a serious drain on the privy
purse. Things are only worth what you can get people to pay for them, and
the market in luxury goods is small enough that a sudden glut can greatly
exceed demand; trying to convert lots of art into ready cash quickly can
cause a great deal of the paper appreciation to evaporate. In times of
national emergency, you will probably end up selling art at a loss.

Investment in land is mostly represented by province level. This leads me
into an interesting and almost anti-feudal take on "all the people are
already there" -- perhaps we could say the province level represents the
amount of land in the regent`s own demesne, and the balance land not
directly answerable to him. One way this can happen is when regents are
in need of immediate cash -- the only explicit figures I`ve read concern
England in the time of Edward I, where land generally sold for a price
equal to 20 years` income from it. This leads to the specter of players
selling province levels for 80 GB each, which is a huge sum -- but at the
cost of lowering RP and GB collection. OTOH, it would have to cause
serious changes in the Rule Province action -- perhaps you`d need almost
that much gold to buy it back again? Confiscations were certainly not
unknown, but do it too often and no buyers will be willing to risk it.

> Productive wealth is wealth that can produce more wealth. The classic
> categories are land, labor, and capital. Luxury items (and militaries
> for that matter) are none of these.

The Magian seems to have grasped the point about the military, in that
fully half of his army consists of building engineers, who I suspect spend
much of their time on public works projects.

> At least the wine has nutritional value.

And you may be able to persuade mercenaries to accept it in lieu of
specie, though you probably wouldn`t want to pay them in it until they
were well outside of town... =)

> A great deal of what nobles and templars produce is of no further
> economic value. Crowns and stained glass windows have no ability to
> produce new wealth.

Pedantically, the nobles and templars consume those -- it is the skilled
craftsmen of the cities (who are most closely related to guilders) who
produce them. The nobles really produce nothing but demands, and a few
elite warriors. The same is probably true of some religions (Cuiraecen
and Belinik, for example) but much less so of others (Erik`s druids are
likely crucial to Rjurik food production).

> They may have important social roles (this man is in charge, that
> window depicts his role model), but no real economic value.

Which means regents ought to be very reluctant to part with them.
Consider the message it sends -- if he is desperate enough to sell, does
that imply he no longer has what it takes to be in charge, and that he is
incapable of living up to his role model`s example? If he sells several
pieces at once, this can reinforce the supply-demand mismatch to depress
prices even further -- since holding a garage sale at the Louvre is a
clear sign of impending doom, the buyers know they`ve got the regent over
a barrel, and are in a powerful negotiating position to obtain national
treasures at bargain-basement prices.

> Looking over most game actions, few of them are intended to produce
> new wealth. They are consumptions of wealth. There are some notable
> exceptions (roads, for example).

Yes, Build Road, Trade Route and Rule are the only real investments
available. Building an army of conquest might be, but it`s a risky one.
Mostly the military is insurance, not investment. Realm spells like Bless
Land and Gold Rush don`t really count, since they don`t increase future
income; they are really just another (albeit much more efficient) form of
Alchemy, which turns an action and some RP into GB, right now.


Ryan Caveney

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[Lawgiver]

I believe that some of my statements are being taken out of context and construed in a manner that differs from their intention. I’m not saying the new world economy of Birthright is luxury items. All I’m really trying to say is that not everything in an economic system of barter need be agrarian in base. Chickens, corn, barley, cows, etc. are not the only form of “money”. Neither is a gp the sole source of payment or tender accepted in Birthright.

Additionally, I am trying to say is that not all of the GBs in the collection/taxation phase are directly related to “production”. The velocity or transfer of wealth has a good deal to do with it.

I do however believe that luxury items can play a significant factor in “production”, provided there is sufficient demand and a limited supply the product. A master artisan can take a few silver pieces worth of materials and create a masterpiece worth hundred or thousands of gp.

According to the PHB a “wagon” costs approximately 350 gp = 3500 sp. (Of course there is some economic differences in the PHB and Birthright prices). How long does it take to build a wagon? Even if it takes 3 guys an entire year they have already far exceeded the 360 sp “average production rate” of a common citizen as proposed by Daniel McSorley in the original post.

How many suits of armor, swords, spears, etc can a man make in a year?
How many tunics, hats, shoes, etc. can a man make in a year?
How many horseshoes, plows, axes, etc. can a man make in a year?
How many bowls, pots, buckets, etc. can a man make in a year?
How many homes, barns, sheds, silos, business, etc. can a man build in a year?

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m not really in the mood nor to I wish to invest the time in developing a consumer price index or the GNP for the various regions Birthright campaign setting. :)

In answer to Daniel McSorley’s original question, if you view the economy as solely based on agriculture you will NEVER have the “surplus” to reach the income generated in your example. If however, you consider some of the factors I have mentioned it is possible to at least achieve a good portion of the “production”.

[ConjurerDragon]

>
>
>Cows don`t live forever, grain rots and labor cannot be saved up in
>batteries, so even a regent with many GB in the treasury cannot really
>have withdrawn that wealth from circulation -- because if it were
>truly left static, it would cease to be wealth.
>Ryan Caveney
>
A silly question from me: Grain rots did you write - I know nearly
nothing about agriculture but I remember
the 7 good and 7 dire years in egypt from the bible :-)

Doesn´t that mean that grain in silos can survive years (or most of it)?
Or is a dry climate as in egypt necessary to prevent rotting?
bye
Michael

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:15 PM

> A silly question from me: Grain rots did you write - I know
> nearly nothing about agriculture but I remember
> the 7 good and 7 dire years in egypt from the bible :-)
>
> Doesn´t that mean that grain in silos can survive years (or most of it)?
> Or is a dry climate as in egypt necessary to prevent rotting?

Between wet weather, moist air, and rats, grain does not store well at all.
Grain molds (one of which LSD is derived from) were a perrenial problem in
France. While storage facilities would be useful anywhere, the return on
investment is probabaly much higher in Khinasi where the weather cooperates
(at least in the west).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Lawgiver]

A silly question from me: Grain rots did you write - I know nearly
nothing about agriculture but I remember
the 7 good and 7 dire years in egypt from the bible :-)

Doesn´t that mean that grain in silos can survive years (or most of it)?
Or is a dry climate as in egypt necessary to prevent rotting?
bye
Michael


You sparked my interest and I've always had the same question about the story of Joseph...

Quick research yeilded the following extract from http://waltonfeed.com/grain/life.html

The Soft Grains - like Barley,Hulled or Pearled Oat, Groats, Rolled Oats, Quinoa, & Rye

Soft Grains have softer outer shells which don't protect the seed interior as well as hard shelled seeds and therefore won't store as long. Hermetically sealed in the absence of oxygen, plan on a storage life of 8 years at a stable temperature of 70 degrees F. They should keep proportionately longer if stored at cooler temperatures.

The Hard Grains - like Buckwheat, Corn, Dry Flax, Kamut, Millet, Durum wheat, Hard red wheat, Hard white wheat, Soft wheat, Special bake wheat, Spelt, Triticale

The Hard Grains all store well because of their hard outer shell which is nature's near perfect container. Remove that container and the contents rapidly deteriorate. Wheat, probably nature's longest storing seed, has been known to be edible after scores of years when stored in a cool dry place. As a general rule for hard grains, hermetically sealed in the absence of oxygen, plan on a storage life of 10-12 years at a stable temperature of 70 degrees F. They should keep proportionately longer if stored at cooler temperatures.

[Eric Saxon]

Originally posted by ryancaveney
Cows don`t live forever, grain rots and labor cannot be saved up in
batteries, so even a regent with many GB in the treasury cannot really
have withdrawn that wealth from circulation -- because if it were
truly left static, it would cease to be wealth.


I don't believe cows to be a perishable good. Ask any rancher today and he will tell you. So, how do you keep the cows, well use some of those goods, to actually purchase lands, for the crown. Then have tenant farmers, start using the cattle to breed, vast herds of cattle and whatever profits they bring will easily pay for their upkeep.

As for grain, well maybe you have that grain turned into flour. A lot easier to store flour than grain, so why would you care about flour rotting, especially, since you could probably trade it for some other valuable comodity. As for labor, when you figure that noblemen, liked to live high of the horse, eventually you are going to be able to use the resources you granted them, to force them to provide you with labor to do whatever you want done, for free.

[ryancaveney]

Michael Romes wrote:

> Doesn`t that mean that grain in silos can survive years (or most of it)?
> Or is a dry climate as in egypt necessary to prevent rotting?

Dry climate certainly helps. However, warm climate hurts. In any case,
since rotting is a continuous and relative process, after seven years of
famine you are likely to be willing to eat grain of a quality so low you`d
have been hesitant to feed it to pigs in the seventh year of good times.
Desperation can really lower your standards.

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Lawgiver wrote:

> Quick research yeilded the following extract from
> http://waltonfeed.com/grain/life.html

Interesting find, though its specific numbers are strongly dependent on
modern industrial packaging techniques. We can hope that relative lengths
might still be valid, but some of the foods listed, like dehydrated
vegetables and powdered milk, should not really exist even in concept in
Cerilia. OTOH, what exactly is in "iron rations"?

> Soft Grains have softer outer shells which don`t protect the seed
> interior as well as hard shelled seeds and therefore won`t store as
> long.

And for this reason, flour (seed interiors extracted from their shells and
ground to a powder) keeps even less well than the grains it was made from.
The same web page says:

: After seeds are broken open their outer shells can no longer protect
: the seed contents and seed nutrients start to degrade. Don`t try to
: store unprotected flours longer than a year. Hermetically sealed in the
: absence of oxygen, plan on a storage life of 5 years at a stable
: temperature of 70 degrees F.

"Hermetically sealed in the absence of oxygen" is the tricky part -- this
will be essentially impossible to obtain in Cerilia without magic. And
not simple magic, either -- the requirements seem to be along the lines of
a Permanent spherical Wall of Force and then a pinprick gate opened inside
it to the plane of Quasi-Elemental Vacuum. More efficient to just let it
rot and then have a priest cast Purify Food and Drink occasionally.
I`d say "Don`t try to store unprotected flours longer than a year" is the
relevant advice. In any case, with respect to flour versus whole grains,
note that even with modern packaging and storage techniques, grinding corn
or wheat cuts their shelf life by a factor of two or more:

> As a general rule for hard grains, hermetically sealed in the absence
> of oxygen, plan on a storage life of 10-12 years at a stable
> temperature of 70 degrees F.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:16 AM

>OTOH, what exactly is in "iron rations"?

I`ve always assumed them to be similar to the military biscuits that were
common during the early modern period. They were unleven biscuits of heavy
breads that are often described as being like eating a rock, but they were
also capable of sustaining a reasonably healthy person with no nutritional
deficency for reasably long periods of time (months) with little else.
These biscuits became popular when military forces abandon pillage as a
source of supply for the magazine system. They are dry as dust and very
hard. Some languages use a word more like cracker than biscuit to describe
them. They were often prepared long in advance of a campaign. Napoleon,
for instance began the baking of his supplies near the end of 1811 for his
1812 campaign. He had millions of biscuits prepared in depots throughout
eastern Germany and Poland which he brought into Russia. His troops, less
accustomed to portaging their supply, stuffed themselves and threw away most
of their food, intending to pillage Russia. Only Marshal Davout (and the
Imperial Guard) knew to take special preperations and made sure that the
biscuits were not gorged or discarded in order to make the march lighter,
because they anticipated the lower population density of Russia, and the
scorched earth tactics of the Russians. Anyway, these biscuits were months
old.

That is what I imagine when the idea of Iron Rations comes up.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Satanta]

lawgiver did you say that a completely agriculturl economy would provide no surplus?(if im wrong it due to sleep deprevation).
if so thats not entirely true. gaelic ireland had an almost completley agricultural system, with no towns and no citys, yet were able to sustain a learned class, a nobility and warrior class quite well





another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
1GB=2,000gps

this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the transferal doesnt work

1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on 4GBs or 160 gps each

surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or 20,000 gps?

sorry for trying of the point ;)

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
> >OTOH, what exactly is in "iron rations"?
>
> I`ve always assumed them to be similar to the military biscuits that were
> common during the early modern period. They were unleven biscuits of heavy
> breads that are often described as being like eating a rock,

Ah, hardtack! I remember making (and eating, and force-feeding my
classmates) some of that stuff in grade school for a project about the
American Revolution. Damn near broke my teeth on it. Tasted a lot like
oyster crackers, actually. I got the recipe out of some kids magazine.
Definitely much improved by letting it soak in your drink for a while.

> but they were also capable of sustaining a reasonably healthy person
> with no nutritional deficency for reasably long periods of time
> (months) with little else. These biscuits became popular when military
> forces abandon pillage as a source of supply for the magazine system.

I had thought of them mostly as food for the navy (which obviously cannot
pillage), but I suppose they`d be quite useful on land as well.

> They are dry as dust and very hard.

Yes, that pretty much describes what I made.

> His troops, less accustomed to portaging their supply, stuffed
> themselves and threw away most of their food, intending to pillage
> Russia.

Whoops! Ouch.

> That is what I imagine when the idea of Iron Rations comes up.

Thanks, that helped a lot.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Satanta wrote:
> another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
> 1GB=2,000gps
>
> this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in
> cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the
> transferal doesnt work
>
> 1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them
> a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
> 200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
> 200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
> similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on
> 4GBs or 160 gps each
>
> surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or
> 20,000 gps?

You`re right, it doesn`t work. But the Cerilian military structure is
still semi-feudal, so you`re not equipping all these men directly. You`re
calling up noblemen and their lackeys who are loyal to you. (It`s the
only way the money can work out). Mercenaries are more expensive, because
you pay them more, but they`re pre-equipped as well, the dogs of war take
care of their own gear.

Incidentally, I`d say a unit of regular infantry is more likely to be
equipped with hardened leather cuirasses and a mix of axes, spears, and
bill hooks than they are to have chain and swords. A unit of knights
might have on average chain mail and a breastplate, and it would be a
family heirloom to that man at arms.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by Satanta
lawgiver did you say that a completely agriculturl economy would provide no surplus?(if im wrong it due to sleep deprevation).
if so thats not entirely true. gaelic ireland had an almost completley agricultural system, with no towns and no citys, yet were able to sustain a learned class, a nobility and warrior class quite well


No. I sure didn't. :P What I did say is that there is no way for the surplus needed to meet 76 GB in income generated every turn to be produced solely from agriculture (see the first page of the posts on this thread). The agricultural output could be sufficient to provide for the masses in a level 10 province, but its not going to produce a surplus of 912 GB (1,824,000 gp) a year. ;) The vast majority of the excess will come from the afore mentioned items.


Originally posted by Satanta
another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
1GB=2,000gps

this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the transferal doesnt work

1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on 4GBs or 160 gps each

surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or 20,000 gps?
sorry for trying of the point ;)

I argued that point ages ago, but was bashed to peices a few other members of the board. I still think the cost is too low. However, here are a few suggestions to make it more feasible:

-The military hires its own armorers and weaponsmiths. Its MUCH MUCH cheaper to pay a few contracted workers than to buy items at retail.
-Many of the armies men are made up of those who already have swords and armor
-armor and weapons are recycled to some degree. Once the unit is originally created its arms are kept in a store house after it disbands (though these ultimately have to come from somewhere...)
-dead units are scavenged for arms (though again they must have an origin)
-indentured servants or prisoners could be trained as skilled laborers to build certain items.

[Satanta]

hmmm it is a good way of trying to explain it. surely it would be easier to just add that extra little zero and everything looks belivable.

anyway the original game designer might have ment 20,000 rather than 2,000 , it could have been a miss print;)