3e Races

[Birthright-L]

One note: Dwarves got their 50% dr versus blunt carried over from 2e. I
understand that this type of DR is being done away with in 3.5 (the most
common example is skeletons versus pointy things), but I don`t know the
new form. It will just be an easy revision.

Humankind got a variety of `+1 to this skill` and `this other skill is a
class skill` and `bonus to this save`. It seems to come out to about a
free feat and a half or two feats at first level, /in addition/ to the
bonus feat that humans get at first level. I remember it being said you
were using the FRCS as a model. Is that the way they do this for human
races? It seems overbalanced to give humanity its traditional benefits,
plus and extra couple of feats.

I see that the `bloodline score as ability score` trait has been carried
over from Doom`s conversion. I detested it then, it was a needless hack
that complicated the domain system and didn`t add any real benefits to
play. I`m only 26 pages into this book so I`m going to hold off on really
ripping into that until later.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[spehar]

There is already 2 [general] race threads. There a way to combined threads Arjy? Lets use the other one.

Mike Spehar

[Azrai]

In my experience players like different and new races. It was a big run on all these new ones when the 3. Edition came out. Most liked were the Celestials, Half Dragons are Lycantrope-templates.

At least some of this new 3. Edition races should be included in the Birthright edition.

Ok, there are no Dark elves in Cerilia.

I would propose the Half Dragon, the Genasis (Half Gennies), Tieflings and Aasimar.
I know that on Birthright the planetouched matter is special, but I see no reason to exclude outsiders totally.

I would also propose to use the "shadow template" of the Manual of the Planes" for shadow world beeings.


Where are the gnomes?

[AnakinMiller]

What you are wanting to do is turn Cerilia into Faerun. One of the
strongest points to Birthright and Cerilia was the fact that there wasn`t a
god on everycorner, magic items stores in each city. You didn`t have Drow,
Half Dragons, Half Giants, Muls, Tielfings etc and it didn`t matter.

Cerilia has its own unique setting. There is no reason to attempt to make
it into FR part 2, the Cerilia continent.

-Anakin
*Sick, Tired and Exhausted*
*Hater of Realms and all things Drow*

----- Original Message -----
From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: 3e Races [36#1255]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1255
>
> Azrai wrote:
> In my experience players like different and new races. It was a big run
on all these new ones when the 3. Edition came out. Most liked were the
Celestials, Half Dragons are Lycantrope-templates.
>
> At least some of this new 3. Edition races should be included in the
Birthright edition.
>
> Ok, there are no Dark elves in Cerilia.
>
> I would propose the Half Dragon, the Genasis (Half Gennies), Tieflings and
Aasimar.
> I know that on Birthright the planetouched matter is special, but I see no
reason to exclude outsiders totally.
>
> I would also propose to use the "shadow template" of the Manual of the
Planes" for shadow world beeings.
>
>
> Where are the gnomes?
>
>
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[Cobos]

Azrai wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1255
>
> Azrai wrote:
> In my experience players like different and new races. It was a big run on all these new ones when the 3. Edition came out. Most liked were the Celestials, Half Dragons are Lycantrope-templates.
>
>At least some of this new 3. Edition races should be included in the Birthright edition.
>
>Ok, there are no Dark elves in Cerilia.
>
>I would propose the Half Dragon, the Genasis (Half Gennies), Tieflings and Aasimar.
>
>
HALF DRAGONS ?
There are maybe a dozen dragons left on Cerilia and as far as I`ve seen
the one mentioned in Ed Starks article
in dragon "Fire in the peaks" (or similar) describes the youngest on
them and he is about 1500 years i.e. great
wyrm... Where then the reputed half dragons should come from is beyond
me, and the same goes for theiflings and aasimars, they are demons and
angels, something which has never been very popular with BR. The
designers even mentioned somewhere that you can`t planeshift to BR and
outsiders are always rare and always with a special history behind them...
But sure if you want them in your campaign go ahead, but I really don`t
see what that has to do in a BR book...

>I know that on Birthright the planetouched matter is special, but I see no reason to exclude outsiders totally.
>
>I would also propose to use the "shadow template" of the Manual of the Planes" for shadow world beeings.
>
>
Not having seen the ahadow template I don`t know, but at least this
sounds a lot better...

>
>Where are the gnomes?
>
>
>
Sindre

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[irdeggman]

As far as the shadow template from the manual of the planes (and templates from other books) the development team made a conscious decision to only use the core books (PHB, DMG and MM) for direct reference. This was for several reasons, one being the OGL, another is their availability world wide. Many people in different countries can't afford all the books, what is the mark in Australia Ian - about double the cost?

There are many things in other books that would be useful and should be incorporated, at least on a personal campaign level, but due to the the reasons mentioned weren't.

The exceptions were the list of prestige classes and monsters, these were included because they were just lists and didn't automatically make them appear in anyone's campaign. Imagine the consternation that would cause a DM (and of course a player who wanted it) if the BRCS core rules talked about the shadow template (other than a list) if they didn't have a copy of the manual of the planes. Note that only the generic products were used as sources for prestige classes - a direct import of another campaigns prestige classes is asking for trouble. They are supposed to be uniquely created for that campaign setting.

[kgauck]

I don`t buy the backward conversion to feats as the best way to measure
balance. Looking instead at other campaign settings, the BRCS actually
seems pretty mild. The PHB provides a blank slate of the races, adding
things like "Brecht have a business sense" means adding that sense (in the
form of bonus class skills) will be in addition to the blank slate provided
in the PHB. Other CS` do the same, and some provide much more in the way of
cultural backround knowledge. Were I to find fault with the racial balance
of the BRCS (and I`m not saying there is a problem), I`d be more inclined to
add a few skill bonuses to starting non-human characters. The blank slate
dwarves have stonecunning, what do Cerilian dwarves also know? It may well
be that we have more knowledge about human culture, because its better
developed than the non-human cultures. If someone said that Sidhe get a
cultural bonus to Wilderness Lore would that be hard to believe?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by irdeggman
another is their availability world wide. Many people in different countries can't afford all the books, what is the mark in Australia Ian - about double the cost?


Roughly double the cost. A book that costs $40 in the US will cost $80 in Australia. The core rulebooks were originally $40 each, although that price has now increased. And remember, Australia is a fairly rich country and these things go. In other countries in the world, people may not have the money to buy anything more than the core rulebooks.

By sourcing the BRCS only from rules in the core rulebooks, we ensure that they are accessable to everyone (as the core rules can be downloaded for free anyway). This is more important than referencing every product released in the past 2 1/2 years.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
What you are wanting to do is turn Cerilia into Faerun
New races won't change the flair of the setting, because they are already THERE. The half-fiend for example is listed in the 3Ed.BRCS under Cleric, Hand of Azrai.

It's only that new races and new classes make fun and add a lot to the game.

The genasi would fit perfect to a kinashi campaign, the half-orog is also an idea.

I would also like some prestige classes (ok, you said, some will follow in the atlas). But I think, classes like Assasin, Loremaster, Blackguard are now core and standard D&D and should also be reviewed. What about some priest prestige classes?

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Azrai
New races won't change the flair of the setting, because they are already THERE. The half-fiend for example is listed in the 3Ed.BRCS under Cleric, Hand of Azrai.

It's only that new races and new classes make fun and add a lot to the game.

The genasi would fit perfect to a kinashi campaign, the half-orog is also an idea.

I would also like some prestige classes (ok, you said, some will follow in the atlas). But I think, classes like Assasin, Loremaster, Blackguard are now core and standard D&D and should also be reviewed. What about some priest prestige classes?


The Hand of Azrai is an exception, not the rule. She is a powerful and mysterious being and making her half-fiend helps to cerment this. If there were other half-fiend beings around then this would undermine her character, make her just one of the crowd instead of a unique and powerful being.

The genasi do not fit in the campaign because there is no reason to support their presence. Just because they have a culture similar to the Khinasi does not mean they should exist there. They are supposed to be a cross between genies and humans (am I right here?) so where are the genies? In his initial design work for Aduria Rich Baker set aside a region of that continent for a persia with genies type culture, so put the genasi there if you want. That way a couple may have travelled the 2,000 or so miles north to Cerilia and appear as rare and mysterious visitors from the south.

The half-orog is just a half-orc under another name, and as there is little mixing between the orog and human cultures (compared to orc/humans in other worlds) then the presence of this hybrid is not justified.

The Atlas will contain a large section on prestige classes. The Atlas focuses more on the background of the races, faiths and realms of Cerilia, so prestige classes linked to those organisations would be better placed there. We will certainly attempt to have the majority of prestige classes presented in the first release of the Atlas if possible. If you wish to write up some prestige classes, races, etc yourself and release them to the BR community we would love to see them and perhaps even include them in the Atlas.

[Birthright-L]

The one race I expected to see that would replace the Half-Orc would be a
Half-Ogre. The half ogres are one of the most numerous half-humans in all
of Cerilia....even Mhoried has it`s northern most province swarming with
them. `Warlock of the Stonecrowns` mentions them as "highlanders" or some
such. That was just my take though on what would be good to replace
half-orcs with; since there are "numerous clans" of half-ogres in Mhoried
alone...not even thinking about all the mixing of Humans and Ogres in the
Stonecrown Mts/Five Peaks area.

Or how about Half-Goblins. :-) That would be funny actually. ;-)

Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Raesene Andu <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

Raesene Andu wrote:

Originally posted by Azrai
New races won`t change the flair of the setting, because they are already
THERE. The half-fiend for example is listed in the 3Ed.BRCS under Cleric,
Hand of Azrai.

It`s only that new races and new classes make fun and add a lot to the
game.

The genasi would fit perfect to a kinashi campaign, the half-orog is also an
idea.

I would also like some prestige classes (ok, you said, some will follow in
the atlas). But I think, classes like Assasin, Loremaster, Blackguard are
now core and standard D&D and should also be reviewed. What about some
priest prestige classes?


The Hand of Azrai is an exception, not the rule. She is a powerful and
mysterious being and making her half-fiend helps to cerment this. If there
were other half-fiend beings around then this would undermine her character,
make her just one of the crowd instead of a unique and powerful being.

The genasi do not fit in the campaign because there is no reason to support
their presence. Just because they have a culture similar to the Khinasi does
not mean they should exist there. They are supposed to be a cross between
genies and humans (am I right here?) so where are the genies? In his initial
design work for Aduria Rich Baker set aside a region of that continent for a
persia with genies type culture, so put the genasi there if you want. That
way a couple may have travelled the 2,000 or so miles north to Cerilia and
appear as rare and mysterious visitors from the south.

The half-orog is just a half-orc under another name, and as there is little
mixing between the orog and human cultures (compared to orc/humans in other
worlds) then the presence of this hybrid is not justified.

The Atlas will contain a large section on prestige classes. The Atlas
focuses more on the background of the races, faiths and realms of Cerilia,
so prestige classes linked to those organisations would be better placed
there. We will certainly attempt to have the majority of prestige classes
presented in the first release of the Atlas if possible. If you wish to
write up some prestige classes, races, etc yourself and release them to the
BR community we would love to see them and perhaps even include them in the
Atlas.

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by cobos

HALF DRAGONS ?
There are maybe a dozen dragons left on Cerilia and as far as I`ve seen the one mentioned in Ed Starks article in dragon "Fire in the peaks" (or similar) describes the youngest on them and he is about 1500 years i.e. great wyrm...
And??? Even a great wyrm of a dragon can create children, so why not? It should be curious and rare, but possible...



Where then the reputed half dragons should come from is beyond me, and the same goes for theiflings and aasimars, they are demons and angels, something which has never been very popular with BR. The designers even mentioned somewhere that you can`t planeshift to BR and outsiders are always rare and always with a special history behind them...
No planeshift to BR isn't possible, but planeshifting to the shadow world. From the Shadow world to Cerilia isn't that far, so I don't see problems. Asimaars, Half-celestials etc. should be rare to very rare (as for half-dragons too), but not impossible...

Maybe an Ersheglien could have the Half-celestial template as part of its Ersheglien version (then there are no discussions about its powers ;) )...

[Cobos]

Ariadne wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1255
>
> Ariadne wrote:
>
Originally posted by cobos
>
>HALF DRAGONS ?
>There are maybe a dozen dragons left on Cerilia and as far as I`ve seen the one mentioned in Ed Starks article in dragon "Fire in the peaks" (or similar) describes the youngest on them and he is about 1500 years i.e. great wyrm...
>And??? Even a great wyrm of a dragon can create children, so why not? It should be curious and rare, but possible...
>
>
Yes you couldn`t have said my point any better... they would be rare (I
would say extremely rare but that is a matter of opinion). And that is
the reason they`ve got nothing to do in a BRCS which is supposed to
define all the normal things in a campaign... half-dragons will surely
not be normal and thus has nothing to do in a BRCS. If you want them go
ahead and use them in your campaign...

>

>Where then the reputed half dragons should come from is beyond me, and the same goes for theiflings and aasimars, they are demons and angels, something which has never been very popular with BR. The designers even mentioned somewhere that you can`t planeshift to BR and outsiders are always rare and always with a special history behind them...
>No planeshift to BR isn`t possible, but planeshifting to the shadow world. From the Shadow world to Cerilia isn`t that far, so I don`t see problems. Asimaars, Half-celestials etc. should be rare to very rare (as for half-dragons too), but not impossible...
>
>
Look at my comment above...

>Maybe an Ersheglien could have the Half-celestial template as part of its Ersheglien version (then there are no discussions about its powers ;) )...
>
>
That`s that way birthright birthright, every blooded person is
essentially half-celestial...you don`t need another rule on top of the
whole bloodline system which is cool and works...

>
>
Sindre

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[ConjurerDragon]

Raesene Andu wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1255
>Raesene Andu wrote:
> [quote]Originally posted by Azrai
>The Hand of Azrai is an exception, not the rule. She is a powerful and mysterious being and making her half-fiend helps to cerment this. If there were other half-fiend beings around then this would undermine her character, make her just one of the crowd instead of a unique and powerful being.
>
Would the son of Rhuobhe in the Sword&Crown Adventure not be a
half-fiend as well? Then we would have already two in a world which can
only be entered through the shadow world as I thought - woulnd´t that
make visits of fiends or anyone from anywhere from other planes highly
unlikely if not impossible?
bye
Michael Romes

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