3e miscellaneous thoughts

[Birthright-L]

I kind of like the way the Rule (province and holding) actions are set up,
with costs in GBs and escalating DCs, rather than a cost in GB and RP and
a set DC. It supports unblooded regents straight out of the box.

However, there`s an off-by-one error in the descriptions. The DCs of Rule
are "10+ current level". It should be 10+ target level. Likewise the
cost for Rule Province should be GB equal to target level instead of
current level. Otherwise, it costs 0 GB to rule a province to level 1,
and 1 RP less than it should to do either Rule variation.

I need to reread the RP collection rules, but with two tables and a
lengthy explanation, it`s worse than the original rules; the net result
seems to be that most characters will get 60% RP at 1st level and 100%
from second level on for the holding associated with their class. That`s
a lot of work for not much result. Better to do it directly by class, I
think, and just introduce a `primary class` rule of some type to deal with
3e multiclassing.

GB collection and maintenance isn`t better than the old way. For one,
where are the random GB tables? Constant income is a house-rulism, and
should be the variation. For two, you ditched holding and province
maintenance, which required very little recordkeeping, and replaced it
with directly maintaining assets, which requires a lot.

I`ll articulate those better tomorrow, but it`s 3 am and I`m going to
sleep.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[lord_arioch]

Two questions

Regarding the ships.

1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?

2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A galleon's source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because it cannot dislodge its ram?

Overall, a much anticipated release, excellent work.

[doom]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:03:33AM +0100, lord_arioch wrote:
> Regarding the ships.
>
> 1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?

Not intentionally. All of the ships in "Seas of Cerilia" were included.
Including all material from the PS books was beyond the scope of the draft.
Feel free to spec them out and post `em!

> 2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A
> galleon`s source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A
> galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because
> it cannot dislodge its ram?

Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in
combat and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.

Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the
Anuirean galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes
it of very limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation
(based on ships from the gunpower era) rather than a historically
appropriate design for a fighting ship pre-gunpowder.

- Doom

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[ConjurerDragon]

Dr. Travis Doom wrote:

>On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:03:33AM +0100, lord_arioch wrote:
>
>>Regarding the ships.
>>
>>1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?
>>
>
> Not intentionally. All of the ships in "Seas of Cerilia" were included.
> Including all material from the PS books was beyond the scope of the draft.
> Feel free to spec them out and post `em!
>
>>2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A
>>galleon`s source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A
>>galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because
>>
>>it cannot dislodge its ram?
>>
Which is described in Dragon Magazine in the Weapons of the Waves
article which gave a history of naval warfare in Cerilia.

>Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
> and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
> sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
> necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in
> combat and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.
>Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the
> Anuirean galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes
> it of very limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation
> (based on ships from the gunpower era) rather than a historically
> appropriate design for a fighting ship pre-gunpowder.
>- Doom
>
Is that truly a RAM? I thought it was just a figure head. Why then would
the ship with the highest boarding value of the normal ships try to sink
an enemy by ramming instead of grappling and boarding?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

Galleons were oared??? When was this? I knew Galleys were oared; but in
the original boxed set the Anuirean Galleon is a very tall ship suited to
having broadsides of Ballista (flaming or rope hooked to tear sails) as well
as catapult crested fore and aft castles. It was NOT a ramming vessel...no
Galleon ever was that I can think of....even though the Galleon is a
decendant of the Galley, it didn`t have oars. They even had to be towed out
of some harbors.

While ancient naval battles were fought under oar power; by the time of the
Renaisance(sp?) that was rarely the case. Also, the Anuirean and Khinasi
are supposed to represent that period of cultural developement as it says in
the original boxed set.

I know that the Arabic navies almost NEVER rammed enemy ships; but boarding
was VERY common.

I guess, though, that it is indeed hard to do something like model Galleons
and Dhows after their earthly counterparts when you can`t use gunpowder;
which both of these ships were designed to carry.


Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dr. Travis Doom" <doom@CS.WRIGHT.EDU>

Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in combat
and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.

Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the Anuirean
galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes it of very
limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation based on ships
from the gunpower era) rather than a historically appropriate design for a
fighting ship pre-gunpowder.

- Doom

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[doom]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:29:31PM -0500, Anthony Edwards wrote:
> Galleons were oared??? When was this? I knew Galleys were oared; but in
> the original boxed set the Anuirean Galleon is a very tall ship suited to

Opps. You are totally correct. I mixed up my Galleys and my
Galleons. (A naval expert I am not...)

- Doom

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[Birthright-L]

There is much confusion over naval terms.

The Venetians used something whose name is often translated as Galleon, and
which was really a big galley. At about the same time, the Spanish were
developing what is more commonly known as the galleon, the big, round ship
featured in pirate movies, and this one is more properly called a galleon.
The Spanish galleon is for the high seas, and could perhaps be paddled if
becalmed, but certainly fought under sail. The Venetian ship always fought
under oars, using the sails for transportation only.

Those two ships were made for two different seas - the Mediterranian and the
Atlantic. The Mediterranean is often becalmed, and rarely has severe storms
or high waves. Gales are common, but not that severe. The Atlantic is much
wilder, and even a calm day on the Atlantic is likely to have too much swell
to make rowing efficient.

The ship pictured on the warcard for the Auineran Galleon certainly seems to
be the Spanish variant, and so should fight under sail. What looks like a
ram is really a construction sheltering the bowsprout and which contains the
ship`s toilet facilities.

The only galleons in Birthright are those used by the serpent. And he
navigates in an archipellago, where conditions are probably much calmer than
in the seas around Anuire. Rjurik/Viking ships rowed on rivers and sometimes
on the Baltic Sea, and for landing operations, but rarely on the north sea.
And they cannot be termed galleys proper, since they never used ramming
tactics.



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[Green Knight]

I find the entire idea of sailing ships with rams laughable, and the effort to explain this away with galleons and (presumably) caravels having oars for combat propulsion even worse.

The galley and its like were designed from the ground up to be a rammer; long but slim, to be able to acheive high speed under oar, and flexible and tough enough to survive the impact. Sailing ships have none of these.

Sailing ships have other advantages over rowed galleys, including much greater operational range and higher seaworthiness, but that is another baby altogether...

Have mercy and remove the rams!

Cheers
Bjørn

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[lord_arioch]

This thread explains my initial confusion. My understanding of naval warfare prior to the invention of gunpowder weapons was boarding actions. ships would grapple each other and their marines would fight it out. This would explain why Caravels, galleons, longships, knarrs and zebecs would not be outfitted with rams. Their main weapon would be their marines then their artillery.
One would think that if a galleon went up against a galley that the galley would win because of its maneuverability. That is not neccessarily so. I recall reading about France building galleasses(?) to battle English caravels (or similar ships). The caravels battered the galleasses.
Perhaps the Galley and the Drakkar (because I am not familiar with the drakkar) should be the only ships with rams.?

[ConjurerDragon]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

>There is much confusion over naval terms.
>The Venetians used something whose name is often translated as Galleon, and
>which was really a big galley. At about the same time, the Spanish were
>developing what is more commonly known as the galleon, the big, round ship
>featured in pirate movies, and this one is more properly called a galleon.
>The Spanish galleon is for the high seas, and could perhaps be paddled if
>becalmed, but certainly fought under sail. The Venetian ship always fought
>under oars, using the sails for transportation only.
>
Or in german it´s easier to hold apart: The oared ship is the "Galeere",
the sail ship is the "Galleone" :-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Green Knight]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

> Nobody is familiar with the Drakkar - it is a fantasy ship. However, it clearly has a ram.

This is not at all true, drakkar is really the original name for "the longship". For a simple reference page, got to:

http://www.illustrert.no/kimsplace/Vikingskip.html


Cheers Bjørn


Cheers
Bjørn

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[Birthright-L]

From: "lord_arioch" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> One would think that if a galleon went up against a galley that the galley
would
> win because of its maneuverability. That is not neccessarily so. I recall
reading
> about France building galleasses(?) to battle English caravels (or similar
ships). `
> The caravels battered the galleasses.

"galleasse" is a morepropername of what I temred theVenerial Galleon -
though contemporary terms are highly confusing.

> Perhaps the Galley and the Drakkar (because I am not familiar with the
drakkar)
> should be the only ships with rams.?
>

Nobody is familiar with the Drakkar - it is a fantasy ship. However, it
clearly has a ram.


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[Birthright-L]

From: "Green Knight" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>

> This is not at all true, drakkar is really the original name for "the
longship".
> [...]
> Cheers Bjørn

From your name, I gather you would know of the drakkar or "Drakskepp" of the
vikings. I`m from Sweden, and also familiar with them. But the Drakkar as
pictured on the war card is something different. It has a cabin/arftcastle,
among other things.

/Carl


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[Green Knight]

Right you are. Indeed, I`m curious as to wheter the Vos drakkar would be very seaworthy at all; the addition of forecastle and cabin would seriously compromise both hull flexibility and balance point.

But if the Vos got to Vosgaard by magic I suppose they wouldn`t need that would they? :-)

Cheers
Bjørn
>
> Fra: Stephen Starfox <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
> Dato: 2003/02/10 Mon PM 12:05:05 CET
> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Emne: Re: Sv: Re: 3e miscellaneous thoughts [36#1260]
>
> From: "Green Knight" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>
>
> > This is not at all true, drakkar is really the original name for "the
> longship".
> > [...]
> > Cheers Bjørn
>
> From your name, I gather you would know of the drakkar or "Drakskepp" of the
> vikings. I`m from Sweden, and also familiar with them. But the Drakkar as
> pictured on the war card is something different. It has a cabin/arftcastle,
> among other things.
>
> /Carl
>
>
> __________________________________________________ ___
> Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
> Busenkelt!
>
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Cheers
Bjørn

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[Birthright-L]

Perhaps the explaination is thattheVos are poor sailors, and go down with
their inventions? :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Green Knight" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: 3e miscellaneous thoughts [36#1260]


> Right you are. Indeed, I`m curious as to wheter the Vos drakkar would be
very seaworthy at all; the addition of forecastle and cabin would seriously
compromise both hull flexibility and balance point.
>
> But if the Vos got to Vosgaard by magic I suppose they wouldn`t need that
would they? :-)
>
> Cheers
> Bjørn
> >
> > Fra: Stephen Starfox <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
> > Dato: 2003/02/10 Mon PM 12:05:05 CET
> > Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> > Emne: Re: Sv: Re: 3e miscellaneous thoughts [36#1260]
> >
> > From: "Green Knight" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>
> >
> > > This is not at all true, drakkar is really the original name for "the
> > longship".
> > > [...]
> > > Cheers Bjørn
> >
> > From your name, I gather you would know of the drakkar or "Drakskepp" of
the
> > vikings. I`m from Sweden, and also familiar with them. But the Drakkar
as
> > pictured on the war card is something different. It has a
cabin/arftcastle,
> > among other things.
> >
> > /Carl
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________ ___
> > Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
> > Busenkelt!
> >
> >
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> >
>
> Cheers
> Bjørn
>
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>
>
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[lord_arioch]

I have a great fondness for sea-going adventures which is the reason I revived this threat. Although I found the old BR and now D20 BR naval rules usable I think there are some points that need clarification and debate.

1) The D20 BR rules show a number of ships with rams, the only ship that should have a ram is the Serpent galleys. As I mentioned before in this thread, most Cerilian ships are sail powered, you cannot use a ram. Should a drakkar have a ram? Perhaps that is an option that a regent can have. If a ram is added this will effect the cost and seaworthiness of the ship. Ships that have had rams in history (triremes, biremes) had they hulls built specifically to support a ram. If you put a ram on a longship the force of the collision may cause the longship to break apart. Ideas?

2) Maneuver class was left out of the D20 BR (or renamed). This could also be altered to better reflect ships abilities. Galleons were notoriously slow and clumsy and should not be able to outmaneuver a longship. Can it outrun a longship? With a good wind aft, absolutely. tacking into the wind, doubtful.

3) cargo and troops. This could effect a ships maeuverability. A heavily laden ship is not as maneuverable as a lightly laden ship.

4) Perhaps hits can be created between rigging & sails and the hull. R&S damage would reduce a ships maneuverability while hull damage can effect its seaworthiness, speed and may ultimately lead to its sinking. :)

5) Options of ships. What if you equipped a galleon with a lanteen sail as opposed to a square sail? More maneuverable but not as fast with a tail wind?
What if you streamlined your galleon hull (lower its hull rating) and increase its sail? A faster ship with a weaker hull?


These are some areas that can use some fine-tuning. What says the sea dogs and landlubbers? :)

[ConjurerDragon]

lord_arioch wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1260
>
> lord_arioch wrote:
> I have a great fondness for sea-going adventures which is the reason I revived this threat. Although I found the old BR and now D20 BR naval rules usable I think there are some points that need clarification and debate.
>
>1) The D20 BR rules show a number of ships with rams, the only ship that should have a ram is the Serpent galleys. As I mentioned before in this thread, most Cerilian ships are sail powered, you cannot use a ram. Should a drakkar have a ram? Perhaps that is an option that a regent can have. If a ram is added this will effect the cost and seaworthiness of the ship. Ships that have had rams in history (triremes, biremes) had they hulls built specifically to support a ram. If you put a ram on a longship the force of the collision may cause the longship to break apart. Ideas?
>
Yes. Leave the rams away. Galleeren (Galleys) are the only ships that
ought to have rams and they as the old vessels in the mediterranean sea
were poorly seaworthy and not to be used e.g. on the North Sea or
Atlantic Ocean/Sea of Storms. There ships like the coq, or Roundship
without rams prevail. And the anuirean galleon I would rather like to
see having a drawbridge to board an enemy, like the roman ships in the
wars against karthago.
bye
Michael Romes

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