Re: Racial balance issues in BRCS

[Shade]

Hey yall, great job overall on the doc and thanks for the effort you put
in. I read through the doc and I wanted to bring up several points. I`ll
start with the balance of the races.

I think the races as written are SERIOUSLY unbalanced. I understand what
you are trying to do here; you`re trying to give the effects of the stat
adjustments the human races had in 2e, without actually making them stat
adjustments. However, in 2e there was a corresponding stat MINUS; here
there is no penalty. The problem is, the end result is that there is a
serious inflation of power with the human races.

Anuireans
+1 Will = half a feat (iron will gives +2 will save)
+1 Sense Motive = half or 1/4 a feat (skill foc gives +2, many other feats
give +2 to 2 skills)
+1 Bluff = half or 1/4 a feat
+1 Knowledge (nobility) = half or 1/4 a feat

Effectively Anuireans get the equivalent of anywhere between 1.25 and 2
feats for free, depending on how you treat a +1 to skill.

Brechts

+1 Reflex (conditional) = half a feat or less (Lightning Reflex gives +2
ref save)
+1 init (conditional) = 1/4 a feat or less (imp init gives +4 init)
Appraise class skill = 1/2 a feat (Cosmopolitan gives 1 skill as a class
skill and a +2 bonus to that skill, Versatile gives 2 skills as class skills)
All profession/craft/knowledge skill relating to trade or sea are class
skills = OMFG, this is at least 1.5 feats

Effectively Brechts get 2.75 feats for free. WAY overpowered, especially
compared to Anuireans (on the numbers; although I would argue that
Anuireans get far more useful skill bonuses.. what Brecht fighter is going
to waste his 2 precious skill points on craft[woodworking] ?).

Khinasi

+1 Diplomacy/Knowledge/Spellcraft = half or 1/4 feat each
All knowledge skills as class = 1 feat (Education does exactly this)

Effectively Khinasi get 1.75-2.5 feats for free. I have a serious problem
with non-mages getting all knowledge skills as class skills without having
to burn a feat.

Rjurik
+1 Fort = half a feat
+1 wilderness lore (conditional) and get it as a class skill = .75 feat or
less (Cosmopolitan gives class skill and a +2 bonus, so I`d count this as
3/4th of a feat)

Rjuriks get 1.25 feats for free.

Vos
+2 str for carrying checks and such = not sure how to interpret this.. i`d
probably call it half a feat (Endurance feat gives +4 Con to certain checks)
+1 wilderness lore (conditional) = half or 1/4 feat
Wilderness lore/Intimidate class skill = 1 feat

Vos get 1.75-2 feats for free.


Now, in principle I don`t have a problem with humans getting extra stuff
because BR elves, dwarves, and especially halflings are significantly
stronger than the PHB variants (and I am totally cool with Travis Doom`s
conversion of the demihuman races).

My issue is that the human races are not even balanced with each other. I
agree that 1/2 damage from bludgeoning, no need to sleep, and access to
shadow feats is much stronger than any of the human powers. However, the
demihumans in 2e BR were just as strong relative to humans. In BR IMO this
power difference is counteracted by the huge roleplaying advantage you get
from being a human, which doesn`t exist in other settings.

Khinasi get 1.75-2.5
Vos get 1.75-2
Rjuriks get 1.25
Brechts get 2.75
Anuireans get 1.25-2

On paper Brechts are the strongest, but I`d argue that Anuireans and
Khinasi get far more useful bonuses. Most classes have so many essential
skills they can`t afford to spend points on garbage like Craft[shipmaking]
(that`s what experts are for!) or Appraise (unless you`re a thief, in which
case you have appraise already). On the other hand, flat out +1s to Will
saves (resist charms), Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge Nobility, all
HIGHLY useful skills in a setting where interpersonal powers are king, is
much more useful than the measly +1 Fort (ok so this is not bad) and +1
wilderness lore. I also think the Khinasi are very strong. Not only do they
look good by the numbers (2.5 free feats) but getting Education for free is
HIGHLY useful for a nonwizard (especially a sorcerer!!)

I think what needs to be done is the bonuses need to be equalized on paper
as well as in their utility. I`d propose something like this:

Anuireans: +1 Will save, +1 to Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility)
checks, Knowledge (Nobility) is considered a class skill.

Brechts: +1 Reflex save, +1 to Appraise and Balance checks, Appraise is
considered a class skill.

Khinasi: +1 Will save, +1 to Diplomacy and any one knowledge check, any one
Knowledge skill is considered a class skill.

Rjurik: +1 Fort save, +2 to Wilderness Lore checks, Wilderness Lore is a
class skill.

Vos: +2 str for carrying capacity and str checks, +1 to Wilderness Lore and
Intimidate checks, Intimidate is a class skill.

This way all the races are equal, but still get enough goodies to up their
power level relative to demihumans. Don`t forget, in the PHB, humans are
hands down the strongest race (free feat and 1 extra skill point per level
is way better than any demihuman ability in most cases).

If you want, use the OA method and give each character of a particular race
which skill they want as a class skill. Like, Brechts could pick between
Appraise, Profession (sailor), Craft (boats), or Knowledge (naval). Also
you could give the + to skill checks as a scatter, like Khinasi would get
+2 bonus to skill checks to scatter between Diplomacy, Spellcraft, and any
knowledge skills. So each character would be customized slightly, one guy
might take the +2 to diplomacy, someone else a +1 to spellcraft and +1 to
knowledge(arcana). At least in the end everyone is still equal.

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[spehar]

Daniel: Addressing D&D 3.5 issues are just to premature at this point. It's not going to be till July [at the earliest] until 3.5 is released, so until then we will just have ot take a wait and see approach. When it's released, modifications to the BRCS should be minimal.

I have always thought it bizarre that the demi-humans gain all their special features at once, and humans continue to grow, all be it at a slow rate, as their character class advances. Clearly a feat at 1st level and a skill point at each level doesn't begin to add up to the bonuses the other races get. If your human character had the option of spending a feat for low-light or darkvision would you take it? Just about every character I've played would take that.

Skill focus having a +2 modifier was deemed pretty weak from the start, which is why nearly every book since then has changed upon that rule. So is adding up 3 points [for Anuireans] really that dramatic? No, not even close. Half-elves get 3 points; plus two saves. Dwarves and elves get saves, skill checks, and lots of other goodies. Are humans more powerful then the PHB. You bet. Are the races equal yet. I'd argue it's still not close, but it is much closer.

Now are the human classes equal with one another? I'll get to that and more later. Gotta go.

Mike Spehar

[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
> I have always thought it bizarre that the demi-humans gain all their
> special features at once, and humans continue to grow, all be it at a
> slow rate, as their character class advances. Clearly a feat at 1st
> level and a skill point at each level doesn`t begin to add up to the
> bonuses the other races get.

Yes, it does, along with the floating favored class. The feat in
particular is powerful, because while elves and dwarves get bonuses in
certain circumstances which only happen when the DM sets them up, the feat
selection is controlled by the player, and used much more often than a
racial bonus to skills.

> Skill focus having a +2 modifier was deemed pretty weak from the
> start, which is why nearly every book since then has changed upon that
> rule. So is adding up 3 points [for Anuireans] really that dramatic?

Yes, it`s a whole feat.

> No, not even close. Half-elves get 3 points; plus two saves. Dwarves
> and elves get saves, skill checks, and lots of other goodies. Are
> humans more powerful then the PHB. You bet. Are the races equal yet.
> I`d argue it`s still not close, but it is much closer.

That`s not really your call to make. The designers of the game balanced
the races, by default. Choosing to use the BR d20 version as your own
personal soapbox to correct what you thought were inequalities in 3e
is bad design, and it`s not what was supposed to be done with this book.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[doom]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 03:39:56AM -0600, Lord Shade wrote:
> Hey yall, great job overall on the doc and thanks for the effort you put
> in. I read through the doc and I wanted to bring up several points. I`ll
> start with the balance of the races.
>
> I think the races as written are SERIOUSLY unbalanced. I understand what
> you are trying to do here; you`re trying to give the effects of the stat
> adjustments the human races had in 2e, without actually making them stat
> adjustments. However, in 2e there was a corresponding stat MINUS; here
> there is no penalty. The problem is, the end result is that there is a
> serious inflation of power with the human races.
>
[snip]
>
> Now, in principle I don`t have a problem with humans getting extra stuff
> because BR elves, dwarves, and especially halflings are significantly
> stronger than the PHB variants (and I am totally cool with Travis Doom`s
> conversion of the demihuman races).
>
> My issue is that the human races are not even balanced with each other. I
> agree that 1/2 damage from bludgeoning, no need to sleep, and access to
> shadow feats is much stronger than any of the human powers. However, the
> demihumans in 2e BR were just as strong relative to humans. In BR IMO this
> power difference is counteracted by the huge roleplaying advantage you get
> from being a human, which doesn`t exist in other settings.
>
> Khinasi get 1.75-2.5
> Vos get 1.75-2
> Rjuriks get 1.25
> Brechts get 2.75
> Anuireans get 1.25-2
>
[snip]
>
> I think what needs to be done is the bonuses need to be equalized on paper
> as well as in their utility. I`d propose something like this:
>
> Anuireans: +1 Will save, +1 to Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility)
> checks, Knowledge (Nobility) is considered a class skill.
>
> Brechts: +1 Reflex save, +1 to Appraise and Balance checks, Appraise is
> considered a class skill.
>
> Khinasi: +1 Will save, +1 to Diplomacy and any one knowledge check, any one
> Knowledge skill is considered a class skill.
>
> Rjurik: +1 Fort save, +2 to Wilderness Lore checks, Wilderness Lore is a
> class skill.
>
> Vos: +2 str for carrying capacity and str checks, +1 to Wilderness Lore and
> Intimidate checks, Intimidate is a class skill.
[snip]

In my opinion, this post is an EXCELLENT example of constructive criticism
and should be used as a model for everyone who wishes to have their
voice heard and their ideas reflected in a final "official" community
d20 BRCS. I`m not necessarily saying that I agree with it... (I`m still
mulling it over) but it is an EXCELLENT critique.

Note that first a problem is stated in relationship to the document as
a whole (i.e. all BR races are "slightly" more powerful than norm...
but shouldn`t all human races be "equally" more powerful). THEN a proof
of that problem is presented (in this case using a "feat equivalent"
metric). THEN a suggestion for change is presented that avoids/solves
the noted problem. Well stated.

I`d love to hear what other people have to say about Lord Shade`s proposed
change. Do others agree that the human races seem imbalanced in regards to
each other. Given that all demi-human races aren`t "exactly" equivalent (using
the same feat metric) is this a "bad" thing for human races, or should their
be an effort to make them more "equivalent" on a feat metric basis?

- Doom

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:
> I`d love to hear what other people have to say about Lord Shade`s proposed
> change. Do others agree that the human races seem imbalanced in regards to
> each other. Given that all demi-human races aren`t "exactly" equivalent (using
> the same feat metric) is this a "bad" thing for human races, or should their
> be an effort to make them more "equivalent" on a feat metric basis?

Humans should be left as they are in core 3e. They are the baseline,
equivalent in power to the other races, and shouldn`t be fiddled with. If
the block of powers they get now (Anuireans get +1 to will, Bluff, Sense
Motive, and Knowledge-nobility) are to be retained, it should be as a feat
available to the culture that humans can spend their bonus feat on if they
want.

That way, human races `imbalanced compared to each other` isn`t a problem,
so long as the feats are fair.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Solmyr]

daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> Humans should be left as they are in core 3e. They are the baseline,
> equivalent in power to the other races, and shouldn`t be fiddled with. If
> the block of powers they get now (Anuireans get +1 to will, Bluff, Sense
> Motive, and Knowledge-nobility) are to be retained, it should be as a feat
> available to the culture that humans can spend their bonus feat on if they
> want.
>
Agreed. You could even do it (gasp!) like the 3e Forgotten Realms book
and have regional feats that are available only to characters from a
specific region of Cerilia. That way even more regional characteristics
could potentially be made selectable by characters in the form of feats.

--

Solmyr of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/
The Archmage`s Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/
"War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left."

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[Ariadne]

I like the conversion of the human races (espcially the Khinasi). The Khinasi represent absolute "civilisation" and their children must go to school. So the equivalence of the "education" feat is an excellent idea...

May be the human races are unbalanced with each other. My idea: Highten the Rjurik and lower the Brecht a little and it will be o.k. ...

[Shade]

>Clearly a feat at 1st level and a skill point at each level doesn`t begin
to add up to the bonuses the other races get. If your human character had
the option of spending a feat for low-light or darkvision would you take it?

:o

I have to respectfully, vehemently disagree with you on this one. :)

One extra feat and +1 skill point/level is WAY stronger than just about
every demihuman benefit. Granted, lowlight and darkvision are highly
useful, but extra feats and skill points make it so much easier to qualify
for prestige classes, which in 3e is where the true power lies. A human can
much more easily "waste" a feat on something like Toughness or Skill Focus
to qualify for a prestige class than an elf can, because in most cases
demihumans are struggling just to get the basic feats they need for their
class to excel (for a wizard this would be empower, extend, spell focus,
and craft wand).


>Skill focus having a +2 modifier was deemed pretty weak from the start,
which is why nearly every book since then has changed upon that rule.

I agree with you here. +2 is kind of worthless. I would use 1 feat = 4
skill points as the benchmark.

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
> >Skill focus having a +2 modifier was deemed pretty weak from the start,
> > which is why nearly every book since then has changed upon that rule.
>
> I agree with you here. +2 is kind of worthless. I would use 1 feat = 4
> skill points as the benchmark.

The revised version is +3, or +2/+2 for two related skills.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

If you want to say humans are way more powerful in the PHB, I would have to
totally disagree with you. An elven Wizard basically gets two martial
weapon proficiencies for free (two feats) not to mention racial bonuses that
are only overcome much later in levels. Dwarven resistance to magic is
essentially a HUGE advantage, not to mention their bonuses to hit racial
enemies and bonus to AC against giants; feats there if I ever saw them.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about needing to make a smoother
balance between the human races in Birthright.

Tony



----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

Now, in principle I don`t have a problem with humans getting extra stuff
because BR elves, dwarves, and especially halflings are significantly
stronger than the PHB variants (and I am totally cool with Travis Doom`s
conversion of the demihuman races).

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Anthony Edwards wrote:
> If you want to say humans are way more powerful in the PHB, I would have to
> totally disagree with you. An elven Wizard basically gets two martial
> weapon proficiencies for free (two feats) not to mention racial bonuses that
> are only overcome much later in levels.

An elven fighter gets nothing from the martial proficiencies, and that
wizard will get his butt handed to him if he steps into combat anyway.
It`s a flavor rule.

> Dwarven resistance to magic is essentially a HUGE advantage, not to
> mention their bonuses to hit racial enemies and bonus to AC against
> giants; feats there if I ever saw them.

They`re circumstantial, and certainly not the equivalent of even Weapon
Focus, which applies every round of every combat you`re in. And D&D
characters are in combat a lot.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Shade]

A rebuttal to Tony`s points -

An elven wizard gets MWP: Longsword and MWP: Longbow. This looks good on
paper until you think.. hmm, an elf mage with 1d4 hp/level and a lousy BAB,
he is dead anyway if he gets into melee. That longsword prof (on average +1
more damage than a quarterstaff) is not going to keep you alive. That
longbow prof is going to be useful for the first couple levels, and after
that you are going to be struggling to hit anything with your lousy BAB.
Furthermore, you haven`t spent any feats on PS, PBS or Rapid Shot so you`re
even that much weaker than another archer. If you take one or more prestige
classes, odds are your BAB will be even less than +10 at level 20.

I consider feats that grant non-exotic proficiencies to be very WEAK feats.
A fighter effectively gets 5 feats for free at 1st level just in the form
of proficiencies. Now if I made a class that was identical to fighter,
except for getting proficiency in 3 armors and 2 sets of weapons, and gave
it 5 bonus fighter feats instead, would you think that class was balanced?

I grant you that dwarven resistance to magic is a solid benefit. However,
I`ve always thought the + to hit racial enemies and dodge bonus vs giants
was pure garbage. After 3rd level how much help do you really need hitting
an orc? In how many adventures do you get to meet giants?

IIRC the dodge bonus is +4 vs giants. A human can take the dodge feat and
get a +1 vs all enemies. Would you say that 1 in 4 enemies you fight is a
giant? If not, on average the human ability is much better.

For the same reason I thought that the 2e ranger species enemy was
basically a weak and worthless skill. In 3e it is significantly better
because it encompasses a wider range of creatures and you get to add more
as you level up, but even then IMHO it is only worth it for certain
characters (ie, Rhoubhe).

At 03:29 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>If you want to say humans are way more powerful in the PHB, I would have to
>totally disagree with you. An elven Wizard basically gets two martial
>weapon proficiencies for free (two feats) not to mention racial bonuses that
>are only overcome much later in levels. Dwarven resistance to magic is
>essentially a HUGE advantage, not to mention their bonuses to hit racial
>enemies and bonus to AC against giants; feats there if I ever saw them.

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[Birthright-L]

It is true that warrior type classes already have elven bonus weapons as
class abilities; but many other classes don`t. What you quote as flavor
isn`t entirely true either: An Elven Wizard at later levels who can simply
create his own magic arrows, as well as haste himself, will be just as
deadly as a fighter if we are looking strictly at class ability. I can also
say that a third level Elven Wizard with Weapon Finesse Rapier will hit just
as often as a third level human fighter, and he`ll have a better AC I`ll
wager too.

I daresay a fighter would lose every time to a wizard of equal level if you
just use class abilities (abberations withstanding); because fighters don`t
have magic unless a spellcaster has made the item they use. I`ll gladly
take a 9th level Elven Wizard up against a 9th level Human fighter any day
of the week, and after I turn the unlucky sod to pulp I`ll laugh all the way
back to my workshop and make more arrows that will turn others into pulp.

Lets look at it at a point by point basis using Elf vs. Human:

Elf is immune to Sleep and +2 vs alllll Enchantment (a feat at least)
Elf has low-light vision (there is a feat I dare say)
gains either longsword or rapier AND all bows (LOTS of feats)
+2 to Listen, Search, and Spot (Feat and a Half) i.e Alertness + some
Automatic bonus language (skill point bonus)

The human gets a bonus feat and 4 extra skill points; with any favored
class.

There is NO way you can argue a first level human is MORE powerful than that
same first level elf; no matter what the class. Later down the road (as I
said before) the human will be better maybe; but that is down the road a
good way.

Don`t get me wrong, I like human characters over other races; but the other
races at the start have bonuses that make them better than humans.

And how the heck do you say a +2 bonus to alllll saves vs magic is
circumstantial....like circumstantial is junk. A fighter doesn`t gain a
plus 2 to Ref and Will saves til 6th level; and lets remember most saving
throws against a wizards spells are either reflex or will; fortitude rarely.

No sense in banging our heads on a rock here though. I just have my opinion
that I think is right, and you have yours which I think is wrong. ;-p As
the an old Japanese Saying goes: It isn`t hard to realize you are climbing a
mountain even though you can`t see the whole mountain.

Tony




----Original Message Follows----
From: daniel mcsorley <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

An elven fighter gets nothing from the martial proficiencies, and that
wizard will get his butt handed to him if he steps into combat anyway.
It`s a flavor rule.

> Dwarven resistance to magic is essentially a HUGE advantage, not to
> mention their bonuses to hit racial enemies and bonus to AC against
> giants; feats there if I ever saw them.

They`re circumstantial, and certainly not the equivalent of even Weapon
Focus, which applies every round of every combat you`re in. And D&D
characters are in combat a lot.

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[Birthright-L]

The book actually says you get Longsword OR Rapier, and ALL bows; and
everyone keeps forgetting I said these bonuses are overcome later. The
non-human races all get a +2 skill point bonus just in their extra language
too. I didn`t say a wizard should be in a fight, but I promise you an elven
wizard in a fight with a human wizard using weapons alone will whip the
humans butt.

As for "that longbow" it is really nice when the wizard can make his own
magic arrows....the fighter can`t. And if the Elf Wizard is using his bow
at range...who said he had to be in a fight up close? Ever hear of
exploding arrows? Pretty easy to deliver one of those against a SQUARE your
target is standing in when the AC of the area is less than ten!!!

The reason fighters get more feats is this: without them they are useless.
A 9th level fighter dies against a 9th level wizard because he doesn`t have
the ability to hurt the wizard without magic. Don`t read too much into
this, I`m saying if the wizard`s player is smart and only CLASS abilities
are being used.

Not only does the dwarf get a +2 to magic, but a +2 vs poison; and these
stack. As to how often you meet giants, depends on your game master.
Currently playing in Living Geoff in the Living Greyhawk campaign....ya meet
a LOT of frickin giants.

QUOTE:[IIRC the dodge bonus is +4 vs giants. A human can take the dodge feat
and get a +1 vs all enemies. Would you say that 1 in 4 enemies you fight is
a giant? If not, on average the human ability is much better.]

That math is REALLY flawed. You shouldn`t use a circumstance bonus in that
way against a permanent bonus. Like I said just before, if you are playing
in a campaign in Geoff, then you betcha 1 in 4 enemies will be a giant (but
against giants a +4 bonus isn`t that big of a deal honestly).

As for a wizard being a worse shot than an archer: OF COURSE, he is a wizard
for crying out loud. Lets not get too deep on this or we may as well
rewrite the books while we are at it. I`m just saying that I think the
races and classes are balanced over all. Demi-Humans tend to be more
powerful in the beginning, but humans catch up.

I hope we don`t have to go into calculas to figure this up...my math is
really rusty ya know! :-)

Tony



----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

A rebuttal to Tony`s points -

An elven wizard gets MWP: Longsword and MWP: Longbow. This looks good on
paper until you think.. hmm, an elf mage with 1d4 hp/level and a lousy BAB,
he is dead anyway if he gets into melee. That longsword prof (on average +1
more damage than a quarterstaff) is not going to keep you alive. That
longbow prof is going to be useful for the first couple levels, and after
that you are going to be struggling to hit anything with your lousy BAB.
Furthermore, you haven`t spent any feats on PS, PBS or Rapid Shot so you`re
even that much weaker than another archer. If you take one or more prestige
classes, odds are your BAB will be even less than +10 at level 20.

I consider feats that grant non-exotic proficiencies to be very WEAK feats.
A fighter effectively gets 5 feats for free at 1st level just in the form of
proficiencies. Now if I made a class that was identical to fighter, except
for getting proficiency in 3 armors and 2 sets of weapons, and gave it 5
bonus fighter feats instead, would you think that class was balanced?

I grant you that dwarven resistance to magic is a solid benefit. However,
I`ve always thought the + to hit racial enemies and dodge bonus vs giants
was pure garbage. After 3rd level how much help do you really need hitting
an orc? In how many adventures do you get to meet giants?

IIRC the dodge bonus is +4 vs giants. A human can take the dodge feat and
get a +1 vs all enemies. Would you say that 1 in 4 enemies you fight is a
giant? If not, on average the human ability is much better.

For the same reason I thought that the 2e ranger species enemy was
basically a weak and worthless skill. In 3e it is significantly better
because it encompasses a wider range of creatures and you get to add more as
you level up, but even then IMHO it is only worth it for certain
characters (ie, Rhoubhe).

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[Shade]

At 05:09 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, Anthony Edwards wrote:
>The book actually says you get Longsword OR Rapier, and ALL bows; and
>everyone keeps forgetting I said these bonuses are overcome later. The
>non-human races all get a +2 skill point bonus just in their extra language
>too. I didn`t say a wizard should be in a fight, but I promise you an elven
>wizard in a fight with a human wizard using weapons alone will whip the
>humans butt.

Yeah, but this is hardly a point of comparison. Who cares if a mage can
beat another mage in a hand-to-hand melee? The point here is that the human
mage is going to be better at MAGIC than the elf mage because he has the
option to get an extra spellcasting-related feat than the elf. I promise
you that a human wizard in a fight with an elven wizard using magic alone
will whip the elf`s butt.

>As for "that longbow" it is really nice when the wizard can make his own
>magic arrows....the fighter can`t. And if the Elf Wizard is using his bow
>at range...who said he had to be in a fight up close? Ever hear of
>exploding arrows? Pretty easy to deliver one of those against a SQUARE your
>target is standing in when the AC of the area is less than ten!!!

Comparing a fighter to a wizard is a bad way to balance elf vs human. We
already know that at mid to high levels, wizards are much stronger than
fighters in 1v1 duels.

>The reason fighters get more feats is this: without them they are useless.
>A 9th level fighter dies against a 9th level wizard because he doesn`t have
>the ability to hurt the wizard without magic. Don`t read too much into
>this, I`m saying if the wizard`s player is smart and only CLASS abilities
>are being used.

Sure, but we`re not trying to balance CLASSes, we`re talking about races :)

>Not only does the dwarf get a +2 to magic, but a +2 vs poison; and these
>stack. As to how often you meet giants, depends on your game master.
>Currently playing in Living Geoff in the Living Greyhawk campaign....ya meet
>a LOT of frickin giants.

Sure, that`s nice, but what about in other campaigns? Then that ability is
totally useless.

>QUOTE:[IIRC the dodge bonus is +4 vs giants. A human can take the dodge feat
>and get a +1 vs all enemies. Would you say that 1 in 4 enemies you fight is
>a giant? If not, on average the human ability is much better.]
>
>That math is REALLY flawed. You shouldn`t use a circumstance bonus in that
>way against a permanent bonus. Like I said just before, if you are playing
>in a campaign in Geoff, then you betcha 1 in 4 enemies will be a giant (but
>against giants a +4 bonus isn`t that big of a deal honestly).

But that`s exactly what it is - a dwarf gets a circumstance bonus, and a
human gets a permanent bonus. That`s why I say that human is better.

>As for a wizard being a worse shot than an archer: OF COURSE, he is a wizard
>for crying out loud. Lets not get too deep on this or we may as well
>rewrite the books while we are at it. I`m just saying that I think the
>races and classes are balanced over all. Demi-Humans tend to be more
>powerful in the beginning, but humans catch up.

I think I could agree with this assessment. Demihumans are stronger early
on, but humans surpass them towards the end. I guess my conception of
humans being a better race is because I consider endgame power much more
important than early advantages.

But for min/maxing purposes, I promise you human is a better race.

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[Shade]

>No sense in banging our heads on a rock here though. I just have my opinion
>that I think is right, and you have yours which I think is wrong. ;-p As
>the an old Japanese Saying goes: It isn`t hard to realize you are climbing a
>mountain even though you can`t see the whole mountain.
>
>Tony

lol, well said Tony.. but we are merely debating for the intellectual
exercise! No hard feelings of course :)

At 04:50 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>It is true that warrior type classes already have elven bonus weapons as
>class abilities; but many other classes don`t. What you quote as flavor
>isn`t entirely true either: An Elven Wizard at later levels who can simply
>create his own magic arrows, as well as haste himself, will be just as
>deadly as a fighter if we are looking strictly at class ability. I can also
>say that a third level Elven Wizard with Weapon Finesse Rapier will hit just
>as often as a third level human fighter, and he`ll have a better AC I`ll
>wager too.

To some extent I agree with you - but the same elf wizard would be almost
as strong with finesse: shortsword or shortbow proficiency (which is a
simple weapon I believe?)

The basic problem here is that at high levels casters are so much stronger
than non-casters, which is getting away from the issue of basic racial
balance.

>Lets look at it at a point by point basis using Elf vs. Human:
>
>Elf is immune to Sleep and +2 vs alllll Enchantment (a feat at least)
>Elf has low-light vision (there is a feat I dare say)
>gains either longsword or rapier AND all bows (LOTS of feats)
>+2 to Listen, Search, and Spot (Feat and a Half) i.e Alertness + some
>Automatic bonus language (skill point bonus)
>
>The human gets a bonus feat and 4 extra skill points; with any favored
>class.
>
>There is NO way you can argue a first level human is MORE powerful than that
>same first level elf; no matter what the class. Later down the road (as I
>said before) the human will be better maybe; but that is down the road a
>good way.

Ok, I`ll grant you this. Demihumans are quite a bit stronger at 1st level.
However, like I said before, the true power of 3e lies in prestige classes,
and humans can qualify for more of them faster, and therefore in the end be
a significantly stronger character.

>And how the heck do you say a +2 bonus to alllll saves vs magic is
>circumstantial....like circumstantial is junk. A fighter doesn`t gain a
>plus 2 to Ref and Will saves til 6th level; and lets remember most saving
>throws against a wizards spells are either reflex or will; fortitude rarely.

I didn`t say the +2 to saves vs magic was circumstantial - in fact I
conceded that it was a very good ability. I was referring to the +to hit
racial enemies and the dodge bonus, which are of dubious utility in most
campaigns.

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[Birthright-L]

From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>


> Humans should be left as they are in core 3e. They are the baseline,
> equivalent in power to the other races, and shouldn`t be fiddled with. If
> the block of powers they get now (Anuireans get +1 to will, Bluff, Sense
> Motive, and Knowledge-nobility) are to be retained, it should be as a feat
> available to the culture that humans can spend their bonus feat on if they
> want.
>

I think the "standard" 3E human should be avaiable in Birthright, as a
forigener or a character of hopelessly mixed heritage. The different human
sub-races could then have specific bonus feats and specific favored classes,
balanced by some extra abilities akin to the ones they have now.

Less fexibility - more power



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[Birthright-L]

Gotcha Shade ol` buddy.....I guess we are sort of arguing the same point;
just different ways eh? ;-)

Tony



----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

>No sense in banging our heads on a rock here though. I just have my
opinion that I think is right, and you have yours which I think is wrong.
;-p As the an old Japanese Saying goes: It isn`t hard to realize you are
climbing a mountain even though you can`t see the whole mountain.

>Tony

lol, well said Tony.. but we are merely debating for the intellectual
exercise! No hard feelings of course :)

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[Birthright-L]

Ok...you say potato, I say potato......I`m right, you are wrong; but that is
just my opinion. ;-) I would agree that humans are better at end game (that
is why I prefer humans, because I tend to play in High Level
campaigns)...BUUUUT...in Birthright, I`ve always noticed it focuses more on
lower level characters in the world. I mean heck, Darien Avan is what...a
12th level fighter....and he is the BIGGEST fella on the block as far as
political clout goes. Even the most powerful wizard in Anuire is only 16th
level (I think Aelies is the highest level wizard outside the "bad guys").
So for me, I`m going for the race that will give me the most punch at the
lower levels: if I kill off my competition before they get high level, don`t
have anything to worry about do I? ;-p

Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

I think I could agree with this assessment. Demihumans are stronger early
on, but humans surpass them towards the end. I guess my conception of humans
being a better race is because I consider endgame power much more important
than early advantages.

But for min/maxing purposes, I promise you human is a better race.

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[Shade]

Haha, ok, truce... but a parting shot:

It makes sense to maximize your potential at the lower levels in BR.. but
again in the case of Darien Avan, it`s much better to be human because of
the roleplaying advantages accorded to it in Cerilia. If you`re an elf or
dwarf, you`re, well, alone.

At this point I cede the final word to you. It`s only fair since I started
the argument. :)



At 11:16 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Ok...you say potato, I say potato......I`m right, you are wrong; but that is
>just my opinion. ;-) I would agree that humans are better at end game (that
>is why I prefer humans, because I tend to play in High Level
>campaigns)...BUUUUT...in Birthright, I`ve always noticed it focuses more on
>lower level characters in the world. I mean heck, Darien Avan is what...a
>12th level fighter....and he is the BIGGEST fella on the block as far as
>political clout goes. Even the most powerful wizard in Anuire is only 16th
>level (I think Aelies is the highest level wizard outside the "bad guys").
>So for me, I`m going for the race that will give me the most punch at the
>lower levels: if I kill off my competition before they get high level, don`t
>have anything to worry about do I? ;-p
>
>Tony
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>
>I think I could agree with this assessment. Demihumans are stronger early
>on, but humans surpass them towards the end. I guess my conception of humans
>being a better race is because I consider endgame power much more important
>than early advantages.
>
>But for min/maxing purposes, I promise you human is a better race.
>
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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
Humans should be left as they are in core 3e. They are the baseline,
equivalent in power to the other races, and shouldn`t be fiddled with. If
the block of powers they get now (Anuireans get +1 to will, Bluff, Sense
Motive, and Knowledge-nobility) are to be retained, it should be as a feat
available to the culture that humans can spend their bonus feat on if they
want.

That way, human races `imbalanced compared to each other` isn`t a problem,
so long as the feats are fair.


My only disagreement with this is that the other races in Birthright gain racial abilities over their PHB kin... Thus if you leave humans alone are they get "left behind" and IMHO this would underbalance them whereas right now they seem to be pretty balanced in comparison to the other races.

That said I do think their is some slightly balance issues between the different Human Cultures as presented in the BRCS-playtest version (see my race thread for more details).

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
> My only disagreement with this is that the other races in Birthright
> gain racial abilities over their PHB kin... Thus if you leave humans
> alone are they get "left behind" and IMHO this would underbalance
> them whereas right now they seem to be pretty balanced in comparison
> to the other races.

Then you don`t change the baseline, you change the overpowered other
races. Either you tone them down, or you give them an ECL.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>...
>I consider feats that grant non-exotic proficiencies to be very WEAK feats.
>A fighter effectively gets 5 feats for free at 1st level just in the form
>of proficiencies.
>
5?
Shield, Light, Medium and Heavy armour, Simple and Martial Weapon = 6?
bye
Michael Romes

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
> My only disagreement with this is that the other races in Birthright
> gain racial abilities over their PHB kin... Thus if you leave humans
> alone are they get "left behind" and IMHO this would underbalance
> them whereas right now they seem to be pretty balanced in comparison
> to the other races.

Then you don`t change the baseline, you change the overpowered other
races. Either you tone them down, or you give them an ECL.


Actually I think either approach is valid... unless Birthright is meant to interact with other worlds/settings on a regular basis... if Birthright does have a good deal of interaction with other settings that ECL is the best option... if not and it is meant to be self-contained then either approach works. At least from a mechanical POV if not an aesthetic one.

Though if I do remember correctly weren't the human races for Birthright more powerful than the standard in 2ed? If so than perhaps keeping the flavor of that concept is an important one to the Birthright community.

Thanks,
Joseph

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
> Though if I do remember correctly weren`t the human races for
> Birthright more powerful than the standard in 2ed? If so than perhaps
> keeping the flavor of that concept is an important one to the
> Birthright community.

No, they weren`t. They had a +1 and a -1, which made them standard power
for 2e races.
--
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Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
No, they weren`t. They had a +1 and a -1, which made them standard power
for 2e races.


My bad (I knew about the +1, -1, but I couldn't remember if their was anything else... thanks for letting me know ;-)...

But as you point out they were different from the "baseline" humans of 2ed (if not more powerful)... so the question really is whether or not the different flavor of the humans should be carried over from the 2nd ed Birthright CS to the 3rd ed. Obviously you can't do the +1, -1 stat because such would be quite against what WotC says is balanced as you can in a sense "hide" the penalty in an odd score and gain full benefit from the +1 by placing it on an odd score... (note there are some who disagree with this concept, but that is another arguement and one that probably never will be resolved ;-)

So then the question is: Does the Birthright community want the baseline human from the PHB or the "slightly flavored, but balanced" birthright versions?

Now in light of what you have said... right now the Human cultures as presented in the BRCS do not fit either of these... they take a third route... they increase the power level of the humans in Birthright in a way that was not there "technically" in the 2nd ed Birthright CS.

From a pure translator perspective I would say that the "slightly flavored, but balanced" approach is the most true to the 2nd ed Birthright CS... the baseline human approach would be the most appropriate to 3rd edition... and the current "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach that the designers has taken is their attempt at a compromise.

Which is the best? I do not know... but I would like to see a "slightly flavored, but balanced" approach tried... now if only I could find out the 2nd Ed Birthright human traits so I could put one together ;-)

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[Shade]

>5?
>Shield, Light, Medium and Heavy armour, Simple and Martial Weapon = 6?
>bye
>Michael Romes

I forgot shield! Good call.

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[Shade]

>Then you don`t change the baseline, you change the overpowered other
>races. Either you tone them down, or you give them an ECL.
>
>
>Actually I think either approach is valid... unless Birthright is meant to
interact with other worlds/settings on a regular basis... if Birthright
does have a good deal of interaction with other settings that ECL is the
best option... if not and it is meant to be self-contained then either
approach works. At least from a mechanical POV if not an aesthetic one.
>
>Though if I do remember correctly weren`t the human races for Birthright
more powerful than the standard in 2ed? If so than perhaps keeping the
flavor of that concept is an important one to the Birthright community.

I think we should go on the assumption that our races will be used in other
campaigns; therefore we should strive for balance based on the D&D norm.

In this case we can`t use 2e as a good example. Minotaur (+2 Str/Con, -2
Wis/Cha, large size, and some other bonuses to fear, surprise), Irda (+1
Int/Dex/Cha, -3 Con, infravision, shapechanging, and +1 spell of highest
level), and Half-Silver dragon (+1 to all stats, animal empathy) had no "xp
penalty" or "ECL equivalent" in 2e but nobody can deny that they were WAY
WAY WAY more powerful than a human or an elf. Svirfneblin was another good
example of a drastically overpowered race that had no real drawbacks.

All of these races have huge ECLs in 3e. By that coin it would make sense
to give elves and dwarves an ECL in our conversion. I didn`t initally agree
with this but I am coming around to that point of view.

I am also opposed to the idea of using roleplaying disadvantages to balance
game mechanics. That sort of reasoning leads to the slippery slope of
munchkinism.. "sure, I`m a drow, but I`m a GOOD drow, and I`ve spent all my
life on the surface" ..Daniel brings up a good point about 2e kits. Many of
them were balanced by roleplaying disadvantages that could be easily
circumvented. In any case a roleplaying disadvantage requires extreme
attention on the part of the DM, and I feel the rules should be robust
enough to be balanced without extensive DM intervention.

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[Shade]

>From a pure translator perspective I would say that the "slightly
flavored, but balanced" approach is the most true to the 2nd ed Birthright
CS... the baseline human approach would be the most appropriate to 3rd
edition... and the current "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach that the
designers has taken is their attempt at a compromise.
>
>Which is the best? I do not know... but I would like to see a "slightly
flavored, but balanced" approach tried... now if only I could find out the
2nd Ed Birthright human traits so I could put one together ;-)

Joseph I think you describe both sides of the argument very well.

I for one am very much a purist, and want the 3e product to be as close as
possible to the 2e version we know and love. I feel that exotic changes
should be the purview of individual campaigns and should not be reflected
in the "official" product.

Also, I am a firm believer in precedent, and in this case I think we should
look to precedents set by official WOTC products.

The Oriental Adventures book is a WOTC-published product (it is NOT
published by AEG; read the inside cover and you will see very clearly that
it is copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast). It has a very good example of
"flavored" humans in the case of the OA clans. For instance humans from the
Crane clan get Diplomacy as a class skill, humans from the Scorpion clan
get Bluff as a class skill.

I think this gives a slight, but very slight, power increase to these
humans. I`d be in favor using a similar mechanic for BR3e humans.

I believe that this is a power increase on par with the power increase
humans got in 2e. On paper +1/-1 was balanced, but effectively it gives you
a small opportunity for min/maxing. Take the example of a Brecht thief with
18 Dex and 12 Wis; as a normal human his stats stay as is, but with Brecht
adjustments they become 19 Dex 11 Wis. Even though the stat totals are the
same (30 ability points) the 19/11 is WAY better.

I`d say getting one and only one class skill for free is a small increase
in power similar to giving humans the opportunity to minmax stats in 2e.

We could use something like this:

Anuirean - You get ONE extra class skill at first level. This skill is
always a class skill for you. Choose ONE of: (bunch of Wisdom skills, as
Anuireans got +1 wis in 2e), Knowledge (Nobility).
Khinasi - (bunch of Int skills), Diplomacy
Brecht - (bunch of Dex skills), Appraise
Rjurik - (bunch of Con skills), Wilderness Lore
Vos - (bunch of Str skills), Intimidate

This is pretty much the exact mechanic that the WOTC-published, "flavored"
humans get in Oriental Adventures.

I am also now of the mind that we should balance Elves, Dwarves and
Halflings to the +1 ECL point. Half-elves are weak enough to be +0 ECL.

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[Birthright-L]

You surrender? Shucks.

Seriously though, I still prefer humans to other races; though one of my
friends makes a good point: "I`m a human every day of my life, when I play
fantasy I want to be something I`m not; something I can only dream of being.
At least playing a non-human allows me some control over my dreams."

Along that line of thinking, I agree that I don`t like being something I am
every day; but I sure as heck am not a wizard! So that suits me well
enough. I prefer non-humans in Cerilia just BECAUSE of the advantage humans
have. My thing.

Tony



----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

Haha, ok, truce... but a parting shot:

It makes sense to maximize your potential at the lower levels in BR.. but
again in the case of Darien Avan, it`s much better to be human because of
the roleplaying advantages accorded to it in Cerilia. If you`re an elf or
dwarf, you`re, well, alone.

At this point I cede the final word to you. It`s only fair since I started
the argument. :)


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[jaldaen]

I was going to post this in my other thread, but realized that the idea for the following came out of this thread so I'll post it here (at least for now)...

Thanks to some researching I (think that I) have found out what the Human modifiers for Birthright were (let me know if I am missing anything):

Anuirean: +1 Wis, -1 Dex
Brecht: +1 Dex, -1 Wis
Khinasi: +1 Int, -1 Con
Rjurik: +1 Con, -1 Cha
Vos: +1 Str, -1 Int

The following are possible “flavorful, but balanced” ideas for each of these cultures:

Anuirean:

+1 Will save
+1 to Sense Motive
+1 to Administrate
-1 Reflex save
-1 to Initiative

Brecht:

+1 Reflex save
+1 to Initiative
-1 Will save
-2 to Wilderness Lore

Khinasi:

+1 to Knowledge (any one)
+1 to Appraise
-1 to Fortitude saves

Rjurik:

+1 to Fortitude saves
+1 to any checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time (running, swimming, hold your breath, etc).
-1 to Bluff
-1 to Diplomacy
-1 to Disguise
-1 to Gather Information

Vos:

+2 to Strength for purposes of determining carrying capacity
+2 to Strength checks (not skills).
-1 to all Knowledge skills
All Vos are considered illiterate (Barbarian Vos must spend 4 skill points to become literate instead of the normal 2 skill points).

What do you all think?

I tried to keep to benefits and drawbacks that reflect the ability score adjustments from the original and the cultures.

Note that these are for the most part very different from what is currently in the BRCS-playtest version, but I thought I would present them as an alternative to the "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach the Birthright Team has taken and the "use the PHB Human" concept that Birthright-L has put forth...

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[Birthright-L]

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> For instance humans from the
> Crane clan get Diplomacy as a class skill, humans from the Scorpion clan
> get Bluff as a class skill.
>

Note that these sub-groups of humand do not get to choose their favored
class freely - it is fixed. Arguably, this makes them less powerful than
baseline humans. What is best, an extra class skill, or getting to choose
your favored class as you will?

I repeat myself - I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

Once humans are balanced this way, the other races can be balanced through
ECL modifiers. I don`t mind ECL for nonhumans in Cerilia at all, as I don`t
envisions players using nonhumans. Complexities involving NPCs don`t bother
me.

/Carl


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[Shade]

>Note that these sub-groups of humand do not get to choose their favored
>class freely - it is fixed. Arguably, this makes them less powerful than
>baseline humans. What is best, an extra class skill, or getting to choose
>your favored class as you will?

I think they`re about equal. Neither is significantly useful for the
majority of builds, which are primarily made up of prestige classes.

>I repeat myself - I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
>humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
>freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
primary advantage of being a human.

I no way can I endorse this proposed change.

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[Birthright-L]

> >I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
> >humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
> >freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
> primary advantage of being a human.
>
> I no way can I endorse this proposed change.
>


I`m not saying that variant humans should not get extra feats. I`m saying
that they should get MORE feats, but from a limited or fixed selection
depending on their origin.

Who much compensation these variant humans should get for their lack of
flexibility is an open matter.

In my analysis, the freely selectible favored class advantage is huge when
building characters - especially since a mix of classes usually makes
qualifying for prestige classes so much easier. And if you don`t use PrCs,
it becomes even more valuable.

But I don`t like new human sub-races that get new abilities "for nothing".



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[doom]

On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:16:49AM +0100, jaldaen wrote:
> I tried to keep to benefits and drawbacks that reflect the ability
> score adjustments from the original and the cultures.
>
> Note that these are for the most part very different from what is
> currently in the BRCS-playtest version, but I thought I would present
> them as an alternative to the "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach
> the Birthright Team has taken and the "use the PHB Human" concept
> that Birthright-L has put forth...

I think that it is safe to say that the "races" issues has (to date) been
the primary topic of consideration. I`d like to add a bit of direction
to this discussion to aid us in coming to a concensus as to A) If there
needs to be a change and B) What that change should be.

--- First, the history

Races were one of the first topics covered by the team (back when _we_
were stilling developing a good set of rules for interacting and making
decisions). The team conensus was that the published "extra goodies"
for Cerilian elves/dwarves/halfings did not quite equate to an ECL
(using the FRCS +1 ECL races for comparision). I am going to
oversimplify dramatically and say that we came up with a few basic
options:

Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
make the races a "full" +1 ECL.

Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.

Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
at baseline.

Option #4: Just ignore the difference in power level (as per 2e BR).

Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this

--- Now what?

The races discussion is complicated by people treading lines between
these options. What is an "appropriate" bonus, whether humans should
be baseline or not, and pretty much every other decision regarding
races depends, firstly on which of the options above we wish to use as
our basic model.

Does the community at large have a strong opinion as to _which_ of
these options they find most agreeable. Yet a different option??
Unless we are in agreement as to which of these approaches is "the
best", it might be difficult to move forward and/or compare different
proposals.

- Doom

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:
> Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
> level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
> minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
> zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
> make the races a "full" +1 ECL.
>
> Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
> ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
> for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
> require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
> the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.
>
> Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
> at baseline.
>
> Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this
>
> --- Now what?
>
> The races discussion is complicated by people treading lines between
> these options. What is an "appropriate" bonus, whether humans should
> be baseline or not, and pretty much every other decision regarding
> races depends, firstly on which of the options above we wish to use as
> our basic model.

I heard at one point that you were looking at a FRCS model of regional
feats to give flavor to humanity. What happened to that?

Ranking the options, number 4 is clearly out. I don`t like the way 2
seems to work, because I think humans should be standard.

That leaves 1 and 3. 1 is difficult because the elves, dwarves, and
halflings, while powerful, may or may not make the cut to ECL +1 in
peoples` opinions.

I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
racial feats.

That way, the system is balanced at ECL 0 by default, and DMs who want to
power up their demihumans can just give out the appropriate feats for
free.

:)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[irdeggman]

Daniel, there are regional (and racial) feats ala FRCS. FRCS didn't give the regional feats for free either they were just a regional exclusive option.

[Shade]

At 10:59 AM 2/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> >I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
>> >humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
>> >freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.
>
>From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>
>> Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
>> primary advantage of being a human.
>>
>> I no way can I endorse this proposed change.
>>
>
>
>I`m not saying that variant humans should not get extra feats. I`m saying
>that they should get MORE feats, but from a limited or fixed selection
>depending on their origin.
>
>Who much compensation these variant humans should get for their lack of
>flexibility is an open matter.
>
>In my analysis, the freely selectible favored class advantage is huge when
>building characters - especially since a mix of classes usually makes
>qualifying for prestige classes so much easier. And if you don`t use PrCs,
>it becomes even more valuable.
>
>But I don`t like new human sub-races that get new abilities "for nothing".

I agree with your statement that the freely selectable feat is a big
advantage. However, I think that the freely selectable feat is the main
reason to be a human and that should under no circumstances be changed.

I think the best solution is to take away all the "extra" feats (the +1s to
saves and skills) and just give 1 extra class skill for "flavor." Or, how
about this:

When you choose human as your race, choose an ethnicity. You have the
option of getting 1 extra class skill based on your ethnicity at the cost
of having a fixed favored class based on your ethnicity. If you don`t want
the extra class skill, you can play a standard human.

Anuirean - Favored Class: Fighter (or cleric, to be decided by the
listserv). Any one skill (Wis based) or Knowledge (Nobility) is always a
class skill for you.

Khinasi - Favored Class: Wizard (if blooded) or Magician (if unblooded).
Any one skill (Int based) or Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.

Brecht - Favored Class: Rogue. Any one skill (Dex based) or Appraise is
always a class skill for you.

Rjurik - Favored Class: Ranger. Any one skill (Con based) or Wilderness
Lore is always a class skill for you.

Vos - Favored Class: Barbarian. Any one skill (Str based) or Intimidate is
always a class skill for you.

You may choose to be any of the above ethnicities but lose the free class
skill and gain the ability to have Favored Class: Any. This is equal to the
standard human presented in the PHB.

This basically gives you the exact same option that OA does: you can be a
1. standard human or you can be a 2. human from one of the Clans and get a
specific favored class and an extra class skill. However in BR, there are
no "non ethnic" humans; so you still call yourself an Anuirean, although
you are identical to the PHB human.

I hope this explanation is clear.

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[Shade]

I favor option #1. Keep humans = to PHB (vanilla) or OA (flavored) humans,
make elf/dwarf/halfling +1 ECL.

Some suggestions on how to increase elf/dwarf/halfling abilities without
adding drastically different abilities:

Increase dwarf modifiers to +4 Con, -2 Dex.

Instead of making halflings buy feats to use their shadow abilities, give
them all for free.

Elves - this is the trickiest part. I`d say go along the lines of dwarves
and add more ability scores.. maybe +2 Dex Int Cha, -2 Str Con. This
reflects the ability of an elf to be equally proficient at being a bard,
wizard, or sorcerer.

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by doom
Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
make the races a "full" +1 ECL.


Pros: Takes into account the increased power of the non-human races in the Birthright CS.
Cons: ECL races are disliked by certain sectors of the gaming community. Also *might* require the addition of abilities to races that do not appear in the origianl Birthright book.

Opionion: I don't mind ECLs for the Birthright races as long as they don't exceed +2... which in my opinion none of the current BR races would reach... though they *might* be +1...


Originally posted by doom
Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.


Pros: This provides a nice "self contained" balance.

Cons: Birthright characters would be much more powerful than their peers in other settings and as such cross campaign setting adventures would be problematic. MM monsters are balanced toward the "baseline" PHB races and so Birthright characters would technically have a slight upper hand on them from a technical POV. Also *might* require the addition of abilities to humans that do not appear in the origianl Birthright book or even reflect the original concepts.

Opinion: This approach is fine, but as noted above cross campaign setting adventures would be quite problematic as Birthright characters would be more powerful than normal. Monsters also are at a *slight* disadvatage as the races are more powerful. Thus CRs might need amending (which is actually a good idea for any unique setting to look at).


Originally posted by doom
Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
at baseline.


Pros: Makes cross campaign setting adventures possible and does not give the Birthright characters a *slight* upperhand against standard monsters.

Cons: Takes away from the flavor of Birthright.

Opinion: Not my favorite option as it takes away from the setting... though actually if you were to take away the PHB benefits first perhaps you could lower them to the "baseline" without sacrificng any of the Birthright flavor... hmmm this might be worth a try...


Originally posted by doom
Option #4: Just ignore the difference in power level (as per 2e BR).

Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this


Pros: Less work.

Cons: No balance.

Opinion: Not good ;-)

I can see that you chose Option #2 and it is not a bad option, my only observation is that perhaps you might have used the Birthright +1/-1 stats as a "stricter" guideline... still I think you did a decent job at putting together the human cultural traits.


Originally posted by doom
--- Now what?

Does the community at large have a strong opinion as to _which_ of
these options they find most agreeable. Yet a different option??
Unless we are in agreement as to which of these approaches is "the
best", it might be difficult to move forward and/or compare different
proposals.

- Doom


I find option 1 and 2 the most appealing, but option 3 done right might be even better... option 4 is not really a good option at all...

If you take a look at my race thread you'll find an approach that would fit best with option 1... one that gives the humans cultural traits that "balance" each other out and provide flavor that is (IMHO) consistant with the benefits from the original.

Take Care,
Joseph

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
Ranking the options, number 4 is clearly out. I don`t like the way 2
seems to work, because I think humans should be standard.

That leaves 1 and 3. 1 is difficult because the elves, dwarves, and
halflings, while powerful, may or may not make the cut to ECL +1 in
peoples` opinions.


I agree with you on 4 it is the worst option... and 2 is problematic for balance, but not because humans would not be standard... it would be problematic because all of the races would be quite a bit more powerful than their PHB kin and thus might through off the CRs of monsters... probably by 1...

For me 1 & 3 are the "best" options as they balance the races either through ECL or through lowering their power...


Originally posted by DanMcSorley
I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
racial feats.


Actually I would go about it the opposite way... keep the Birthright specific traits and drop the PHB traits... that way the Birthright races are not turned into Greyhawk races...

Still gets you to the same place, but by a different route.

Take Care,
Joseph

[DanMcSorley]

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> Daniel, there are regional (and racial) feats ala FRCS. FRCS didn`t
> give the regional feats for free either they were just a regional
> exclusive option.

I know, that`s what I think BRCS should use. The human templates should
be remoded into regional feats, and leave all humans as standard 3e humans.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[DanMcSorley]

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
>
Originally posted by DanMcSorley
> I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
> bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
> from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
> races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
> racial feats.
>
>
> Actually I would go about it the opposite way... keep the Birthright
> specific traits and drop the PHB traits... that way the Birthright
> races are not turned into Greyhawk races...

What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that isn`t
inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
-low light vision,
-immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
-elven racial weapon profs,
-bonus to search, spot, and listen.

Which of these would you cut? Better to go with the 3e standard races or
something close to it, and have the more powerful abilities available as
racial feats. I think it works out well.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that isn`t
inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
-low light vision,
-immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
-elven racial weapon profs,
-bonus to search, spot, and listen.

Which of these would you cut? Better to go with the 3e standard races or
something close to it, and have the more powerful abilities available as
racial feats. I think it works out well.


It is difficult to say without knowing what the actual traits were for Birthright elves originally... did they have the above standard traits?

They probably did... and if so then you are right on that (as I just went through the races and discovered that trying to trim the PHB traits was too difficult b/c the racial traits seem to be pretty dead on with what I remember)

In light of this I would have to say that option #1 looks more appealing (than #3) as it does not sacrifice the flavor of Birthright and uses a system that is pretty widely accepted (i.e. the ECL system)... So my belief is that the elves, dwarves, and halflings should *probably* be ECL +1 races... and that humans be given some kind of racial traits that balance out...

Thanks,
Joseph

[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>At 10:59 AM 2/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>I agree with your statement that the freely selectable feat is a big
>advantage. However, I think that the freely selectable feat is the main
>reason to be a human and that should under no circumstances be changed.
>I think the best solution is to take away all the "extra" feats (the +1s to
>saves and skills) and just give 1 extra class skill for "flavor." Or, how
>about this:
>When you choose human as your race, choose an ethnicity. You have the
>option of getting 1 extra class skill based on your ethnicity at the cost
>of having a fixed favored class based on your ethnicity. If you don`t want
>the extra class skill, you can play a standard human.
>
>Anuirean - Favored Class: Fighter (or cleric, to be decided by the
>listserv). Any one skill (Wis based) or Knowledge (Nobility) is always a
>class skill for you.
>
The Fighter is no Wisdom based class. In 2E the Cleric and the Paladin
would have fit, in 3E the cleric would fit as a wis based class and the
Paladin as the embodiement of the noble warrior (Haelyn as the patron
deity of Anuire is the god of noble war).

>Khinasi - Favored Class: Wizard (if blooded) or Magician (if unblooded).
>Any one skill (Int based) or Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.
>Brecht - Favored Class: Rogue. Any one skill (Dex based) or Appraise is
>always a class skill for you.
>Rjurik - Favored Class: Ranger. Any one skill (Con based) or Wilderness
>Lore is always a class skill for you.
>Vos - Favored Class: Barbarian. Any one skill (Str based) or Intimidate is
>always a class skill for you.
>You may choose to be any of the above ethnicities but lose the free class
>skill and gain the ability to have Favored Class: Any. This is equal to the
>standard human presented in the PHB.
>This basically gives you the exact same option that OA does: you can be a
>1. standard human or you can be a 2. human from one of the Clans and get a
>specific favored class and an extra class skill. However in BR, there are
>no "non ethnic" humans; so you still call yourself an Anuirean, although
>you are identical to the PHB human.
>I hope this explanation is clear.
>
Humans are versatile and that is reflected in their extra feat and extra
skills that are freely selectable and the favoured class: Any.
This should in my opinion not be changed into a structure in which you
have no choice of favoured class.

A limited choice, balanced by more power than the standard human - that
would sound good to me.

However IF limited, not to only "standard human" or "Ethniciciy
Anuirean: Cleric". As already others suggested on this list the favoured
class, should not only be dependant on your subrace but also on your
bloodline which has at least an equally high influence on your life.

So everyone choosing the Birthright human over the standard human would
have two choices if blooded: Either the cultural favoured class, or the
bloodline favoured class: e.g. Anuirean with Azrai: Paladin/Cleric or
Blackguard/Rogue or something like that. Brecht with Reynig bloodline:
Rogue/Aristocrat(Guilder) Noble OR Druid/Ranger
bye
Michael Romes

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:

> I favor option #1. Keep humans = to PHB (vanilla) or OA (flavored) humans,
> make elf/dwarf/halfling +1 ECL.

Personally, I think elves and dwarves should be even higher than that.

The stat modifiers I use IMC come directly from the original BR rulebook,
but are based not only on Table 2: Racial Ability Adjustments, but also on
Table 1: Racial Ability Requirements.

As seems to be the standard in going from 2e to 3e, I double the numbers
in Table 2. Then I take the average of Table 1, subtract 10.5, and add to
the previous result to get the total modifier.

That gives the following transformation.


Step One: Table 2 becomes
Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
Strength -2 -4
Dexterity -4 +2 +2 +2
Constitution +4 -2 -2
Intelligence +2
Wisdom +2
Charisma

Step Two: Table 1 starts out like
Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
Strength 13/18 5/18 4/18 3/18
Dexterity 3/16 6/18 6/18 10/18
Constitution 13/18 6/18 3/18 8/18
Intelligence 3/18 8/18 6/18 6/18
Wisdom 3/18 3/18 3/18 6/18
Charisma 3/17 10/18 6/18 3/18

Step Three: Table 1 averaged
Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
Strength 15.5 11.5 11 10.5
Dexterity 9.5 12 12 14
Constitution 15.5 12 10.5 13
Intelligence 10.5 13 12 12
Wisdom 10.5 10.5 10.5 12
Charisma 10 14 12 10.5

Step Four: Table 1 converted to modifiers by subtracting 10.5
Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
Strength +5 +1 +0.5 0
Dexterity -1 +1.5 +1.5 +3.5
Constitution +5 +1.5 0 +2.5
Intelligence 0 +2.5 +1.5 +1.5
Wisdom 0 0 0 +1.5
Charisma -0.5 +3.5 +1.5 0

Step Five: Add tables together, round away from zero
Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
Strength +5 -1 +1 -4
Dexterity -5 +4 +4 +6
Constitution +9 -1 -2 +3
Intelligence 0 +5 +2 +2
Wisdom 0 0 0 +4
Charisma -1 +4 +2 0

This gives strange Str and Con values for Half-Elves (since they should
me like averaging humans and elves, not outside the elf-human range on
any stat), so we arbitrarily modify them to 0 and -1, respectively.


These races are nothing like balanced, which is actually fine by me.
I don`t use ECLs, but then I don`t run mixed-species parties, either.
If ECLs were needed, I could easily see the dwarves and elves I`ve
presented above being +3 each.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:

> Daniel McSorley wrote:
> > What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that
> > isn`t inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
> > -low light vision,
> > -immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
> > -elven racial weapon profs,
> > -bonus to search, spot, and listen.
>
> It is difficult to say without knowing what the actual traits were for
> Birthright elves originally... did they have the above standard
> traits?

In the BR Rulebook, elves have 90% resistance to sleep and charm, are
unaffected by aging attacks and normal disease, have low-light vision (but
not infravision), and never need to sleep. They don`t get +1 to hit with
sword and bow, but do get a +4 bonus to surprise enemies when alone and
not in metal armor. They pass without trace in natural settings and
ignore terrain when marching.

The remaining step in the comparison is to line up 2e PHB elves with 3e
PHB elves; it is from this that "bow and sword to-hit -> racial weapon
profs" and "surprise -> listen search and spot" arise.

Personally, I think pass without trace and easy marching for Sidhelien
definitely ought to stay.


Ryan Caveney

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[DanMcSorley]

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> In the BR Rulebook, elves have 90% resistance to sleep and charm, are
> unaffected by aging attacks and normal disease, have low-light vision (but
> not infravision), and never need to sleep. They don`t get +1 to hit with
> sword and bow, but do get a +4 bonus to surprise enemies when alone and
> not in metal armor. They pass without trace in natural settings and
> ignore terrain when marching.
>
> The remaining step in the comparison is to line up 2e PHB elves with 3e
> PHB elves; it is from this that "bow and sword to-hit -> racial weapon
> profs" and "surprise -> listen search and spot" arise.

90% sleep/charm resistance (in 2e) became immunity to sleep and +2 saving
throw bonus vs enchantment in 3e.

No sleeping and low light vision became standard for all elves in 3e.

> Personally, I think pass without trace and easy marching for Sidhelien
> definitely ought to stay.

I think all the ablities (standard 3e + setting flavor abilities) should
be around, but if they`re all given to elves by default, they need an ECL.
If we take away a couple and make them feats, they become ECL 0, and I
think that`s a good thing.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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