Well done

[Azrai]

There should also be some room for a discussion what has been done well in the BRCS. So maybe this is the place.....


Personally I thank the fine folk of the design team for the lot of work. I really like it.
I feel slightly sorry that there is no real new invention, only some kind of conversion. (This affects especialy the races and prestige classes). But that seems to be well-made.

Some small "side track" chapters like the days of a week are great and should also be mentioned.

Some new artwork from Tony (only a little one) would have been very cool. No time, Tony?

[Arjan]

Originally posted by Azrai


There should also be some room for a discussion what has been done well in the BRCS. So maybe this is the place.....


Personally I thank the fine folk of the design team for the lot of work. I really like it.
I feel slightly sorry that there is no real new invention, only some kind of conversion. (This affects especialy the races and prestige classes). But that seems to be well-made.

Some small "side track" chapters like the days of a week are great and should also be mentioned.

Some new artwork from Tony (only a little one) would have been very cool. No time, Tony?


I was working on the layout when the "flamewar" started, but here are some excerps from what i have done so far

http://www.birthright.net/tmp/excerp3.jpg

http://www.birthright.net/tmp/excerp1.jpg

Here (below) i combined the 5 humans that are on a card of the boxed set, then gave them a duotone.

http://www.birthright.net/tmp/excerp2.jpg

[accasey]

I really liked the Forward by Rich Baker. I think that was really nice of him to write something for that. Enjoyed it, and good of the team to include it as well.

I also liked that there was a good intro section which discussed the history of Cerilia, from the flight from Aduria to the current day. I'm not sure how much of that was taken from the original rules but it's still good to read again.

I liked how clerics were pretty much kept as specialty priests. That was something I really liked about the 2nd edition game. I liked that there are no Monks!! Moradin having paladins is good as well. I think he is a LG god anyways.

I liked how the standard races were changed for BR, ie the elves, dwarves and halflings kept their Cerilian feel. The same BR feel seems to be here and I haven't finished the first chapter.

[Ulairi]

I think it was very nice of Mr. Baker to do the Foreword. It would be nice if we were allowed to produce it as a real book and sell it at cost (just for use not for profit).

[ConjurerDragon]

accasey wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>I liked how clerics were pretty much kept as specialty priests. That was something I really liked about the 2nd edition game.
>
Mmmh? I did read it completely different - Priests may choose 2 domains,
just like all 3E Priests and have access to all spells from the divine
list. They are not limited to minor or major spheres like the specialty
priests in 2E. THAT was what I liked, that full-armour, medium-weapon
beareres could cast not ALL spells, but only all spells from some
schools, only spells of level 0-3 from minor spheres and none from some
spheres.

Or did you only mean that they have to follow a god and not just a cause?

I personally would have liked to see that 3E Birthright re-introduces
the concept of specialty priests, e.g.
that Priests choose 2 domains from a gods list and get the granted
powers, and can cast all spells from this domains (= major spheres) has
only access to spells of level 0 - 3 from the other domains of his god
(= minor spheres) and can cast NO spells from domains that his god does
not grant... Not just the minor restriction that a cleric with the good
domain can´t cast spells of the evil domain.

e.g. Antimagic Field would only be accessible to Clerics who choose the
Protection Domain
bye
M

> I liked that there are no Monks!! Moradin having paladins is good as well. I think he is a LG god anyways.
>
>I liked how the standard races were changed for BR, ie the elves, dwarves and halflings kept their Cerilian feel. The same BR feel seems to be here and I haven`t finished the first chapter.
>
>
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[accasey]

Yes I just meant that they have to follow a specific god.

[irdeggman]

ConjurerDragon - as the domains are set up in 3rd ed they only encompass a single spell of each level above 0. By using your suggestion a cleric would be limited to only casting from a choice of 2 spells of any level above 3rd and only a choice of 4 or 5 (depending on the number of domains the deity has) for 1st thru 3rd and no 0 level spells. Note that not all deities have healing as a domain, so the cure spells would be out.

I take it that you would rather create a"new" cleric class for every deity with their own spell list. In the 3rd ed system that is the only other option to do something like this.

As written clerics get to cast from the "cleric" list which would be different than the divine list. I haven't seen a comprehensive divine list, except for divine scrolls in the DMG and that is not a complete list.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>irdeggman wrote:
> ConjurerDragon - as the domains are set up in 3rd ed they only encompass a single spell of each level above 0. By using your suggestion a cleric would be limited to only casting from a choice of 2 spells of any level above 3rd and only a choice of 4 or 5 (depending on the number of domains the deity has) for 1st thru 3rd and no 0 level spells. Note that not all deities have healing as a domain, so the cure spells would be out.
>
Really? I thought the most of the 3E divine spell list was availiable to
any cleric
e.g. Bless - Clr. 1
Here no domain is mentioned, so all Clerics could cast it following my
suggestion, regardless of what domain they had chosen.
The restriction would be e.g. with Circle of Doom Clr 5, Destruction 5
--> Following my suggestion only Clerics with the Destruction Domain
would be able to cast it.

The example you mention, Cure spells would look like this:
Cure Critical Wounds would be available only to Clerics who chose the
Healing Domain (as it is a 4th level spell)
Cure Light Wounds would be available to all clerics whose god has the
Healing Domain, even if the cleric has not chosen the domain (as it is a
1st level spell)
Cure Minor Wounds is available to ALL clerics, as it has no domain level
listed.

This would not be as restrictive as you understood, as not all divine
spells have a "domain level" mentioned and thus would not be limited in
access.

But it would closely resemble the 2E specialty priests, e.g. the Priest
of Haelyn who had major access to Combat, but only minor to divination
(never cast a Detect Lie!) or no access to Creation (never cast the
"Maintain Armies" Realm spell as only Avani had major access to the
Creation sphere).

And it would make sense - as you mention not every god has the "Healing"
domain in his domain list - why then should his followers have full
access to healing spells?

I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
(major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Ariadne]

Creating own spell lists for every class is a very good idea. I did like the sphere restriction in 2nd Edition too (what to the hell wants a priest of Cuiraécen with circle of doom, harm or slay living). Further I think, they still needn't to turn undead...

[irdeggman]

Michael there is no "divine" spell list. When the PHB says clr - that means it is on the cleric spell list. The PHB lists all the locations the spell falls under. Using the cure light wounds spell as an aexample, it is listed as Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and Rgr 2. This means that it is a 1st level spell on the bard, cleric, druid and paladin spell lists, it is 2nd level spell on the ranger spell list and is a 1st level spell on the Healing Domain list. The lists all work together not exclusively.

Hence all clerics that can cast a 1st level spell can cast the spell whether or not they have access to the healing domain (or chose it if they had the option). All of the version of cure light wounds are divine spells, except for the bard's version which is arcane. All of the classes are described as either divine or arcane casters.

To say that if a specific domain is not listed with the spell then it is not available to any cleric that doesn't have the domain is quite contrary to the 3rd ed system of spell casting.

Which spell list the spell is on is very important since this determines whether or not a member of that class can cast the appropriate spell from a scroll.

[kgauck]

The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer of
love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[DanMcSorley]

On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
> in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
> (major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
> shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
> retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
> divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
> comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
> school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
> the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?

The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
the fun of it.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer
of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).
>

Good idea actually. this also solves the eternal question of bardic
armor-wearing and generally powers up the class some - which itneeds. I say
keep spell list selection and spontaneous castin as it is - there is no rule
saying that all divine casters have access to all their spells, or that they
cannot be spontaneous casters. in fact, the Oriental Adventures Shugenja is
precisely that.

/Carl


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[doom]

On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:43:12PM -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).

Mechanically, this might avoid the problem but it would conflict with the
cannon "the magic taught by the bardic colleges was handed down by the
elves". If something has to give, this might be the lesser evil.
Definately an idea worth considering.

- Doom

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[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
>>in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
>>(major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
>>shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
>>retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
>>divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
>>comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
>>school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
>>the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?
>>
>The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
>core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
>the fun of it.
>
Realm spells like "Maintain Armies" were written so that they could only
be cast by Priests of Avani with the Major Creation sphere, not by the
Priests of Cuiraceen or Haelyn. Haelynite priests were dependant on
priests of Nesirie for highlevel healing and divination spells. Priests
of different gods supplemented their powers and teamwork with the
priests of gods thatt were "allied" with your god was encouraged.

The whole problem of resurrection was not so problematic, as not all
gods even granted resurrectiion (a spell of that level from the
Necromantic sphere required major access to that sphere which as far as
I remember only Nesirie, Ruornil, Sera, Eloele and Kriesha had. "Mosts
sects of Erik and Belinik..." as in the draft 0.0 mentioned would never
have been able to even cast the spell.

What I want to show with that, is my personal opinion, which is probably
as non-canon as that of some people who want gunpowder in Cerilia (I
don´t but I can understand them). I liked the flavour of priest who were
not able to cast ALL spells, but limited in their spell selection due to
a god, who is also limited in power and can provide spells only from
spheres which fit to his portfolio. That I direly miss in the cast-all
3E cleric.

I know that this "flavour" that I miss is not specific Birthright, but
2E. However as Birthright is the only world I play in, it was for me
connected to the world.

> irdeggman wrote:
> Michael there is no "divine" spell list. When the PHB says clr - that means it is on the cleric spell list. The PHB lists all the locations the spell falls under. Using the cure light wounds spell as an aexample, it is listed as Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and Rgr 2. This means that it is a 1st level spell on the bard, cleric, druid and paladin spell lists, it is 2nd level spell on the ranger spell list and is a 1st level spell on the Healing Domain list. The lists all work together not exclusively.
>
I know. I used the term divine spell list, simply to differentiate if
from the arcane (wizard/sorceror) spell list. It is sometimes hard for
me, who got used to 2E to remember that now there are several spell
lists, not just wizard - priest ;-)

>Hence all clerics that can cast a 1st level spell can cast the spell whether or not they have access to the healing domain (or chose it if they had the option). All of the version of cure light wounds are divine spells, except for the bard`s version which is arcane. All of the classes are described as either divine or arcane casters.
>
>To say that if a specific domain is not listed with the spell then it is not available to any cleric that doesn`t have the domain is quite contrary to the 3rd ed system of spell casting.
>
Yes, it is. As I wrote, the 2E system of limiting spell availability to
the powers of the followed god made much more sense to me, than the 3E
system of allowing all spells from the cleric list + 2 domain lists + 2
granted powers + 1 additional spell per level.

It struck me as very similar to the specialized wizard who gains a
"granted power" (+1 spelllevel) and additional spell per spelllevel -
but without any penalties.

What I wanted to show was a way to emulate the 2E system of spheres
without having to compare every 3E spell with the 2E spell list and look
which sphere it was.

3E itself has a negligible restriction in that a good cleric of a god
can´t cast evil spells (chaotic-law is similar).
I thought to retain the flavour of specialty priests in Birhtright (even
if 3E has dropped them) it would be possible to create an easy rule like
I suggested
Only 2 chosen domains full access, all the other domains minor (spell
level 0-3) access, domains your god has not no access.
Clerical spells without a domain listed (as Bless) could still be cast
by all clerics.

I found that not too harsh, as 2E Clerics had similar restrictions to
spellcasting - they were after all only part spellcasters as opposed to
the physically weak true spellcaster, the wizard.

A variant rule, not so harsh could be:
Major access to the spells of domains your god has and all spells on the
cleric list which do not list a domain, minor access to the other domain
spells (only level 0-3, even if they are listed as Clr X spell, you have
no access to the spell if it is a e.g. Chaos domain spell and your god
has not Chaos in his list).

No access only to that spells that are opposed to domains of your god
(good-evil, law-chaos, Healing-Destruction) or your alignment (good
-evil spells).
bye
Michael Romes

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[Green Knight]

Hi

In an attempt to retian some of the 2E flavor, I`ve experimented with "class templates", very similar to the creature templates of the MM.

Under this system, all clerics (and paladins for that matter) must choose a template (that of their god), and abide by the restrictions and benefits presented there (which includes additional/banned class skills, additional/banned spells, different proficiencies etc.).

Its quite neat, as it keeps the core class untouched, but opens up the posibility for advanced players to subtly alter it.

Cheers
Bjørn
>
> Fra: Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
> Dato: 2003/02/10 Mon AM 09:51:57 CET
> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Emne: Re: Well done [36#1271]
>
> daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> >
> >>I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
> >>in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
> >>(major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
> >>shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
> >>retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
> >>divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
> >>comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
> >>school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
> >>the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?
> >>
> >The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
> >core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
> >the fun of it.
> >
> Realm spells like "Maintain Armies" were written so that they could only
> be cast by Priests of Avani with the Major Creation sphere, not by the
> Priests of Cuiraceen or Haelyn. Haelynite priests were dependant on
> priests of Nesirie for highlevel healing and divination spells. Priests
> of different gods supplemented their powers and teamwork with the
> priests of gods thatt were "allied" with your god was encouraged.
>
> The whole problem of resurrection was not so problematic, as not all
> gods even granted resurrectiion (a spell of that level from the
> Necromantic sphere required major access to that sphere which as far as
> I remember only Nesirie, Ruornil, Sera, Eloele and Kriesha had. "Mosts
> sects of Erik and Belinik..." as in the draft 0.0 mentioned would never
> have been able to even cast the spell.
>
> What I want to show with that, is my personal opinion, which is probably
> as non-canon as that of some people who want gunpowder in Cerilia (I
> don´t but I can understand them). I liked the flavour of priest who were
> not able to cast ALL spells, but limited in their spell selection due to
> a god, who is also limited in power and can provide spells only from
> spheres which fit to his portfolio. That I direly miss in the cast-all
> 3E cleric.
>
> I know that this "flavour" that I miss is not specific Birthright, but
> 2E. However as Birthright is the only world I play in, it was for me
> connected to the world.
>
> > irdeggman wrote:
> > Michael there is no "divine" spell list. When the PHB says clr - that means it is on the cleric spell list. The PHB lists all the locations the spell falls under. Using the cure light wounds spell as an aexample, it is listed as Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and Rgr 2. This means that it is a 1st level spell on the bard, cleric, druid and paladin spell lists, it is 2nd level spell on the ranger spell list and is a 1st level spell on the Healing Domain list. The lists all work together not exclusively.
> >
> I know. I used the term divine spell list, simply to differentiate if
> from the arcane (wizard/sorceror) spell list. It is sometimes hard for
> me, who got used to 2E to remember that now there are several spell
> lists, not just wizard - priest ;-)
>
> >Hence all clerics that can cast a 1st level spell can cast the spell whether or not they have access to the healing domain (or chose it if they had the option). All of the version of cure light wounds are divine spells, except for the bard`s version which is arcane. All of the classes are described as either divine or arcane casters.
> >
> >To say that if a specific domain is not listed with the spell then it is not available to any cleric that doesn`t have the domain is quite contrary to the 3rd ed system of spell casting.
> >
> Yes, it is. As I wrote, the 2E system of limiting spell availability to
> the powers of the followed god made much more sense to me, than the 3E
> system of allowing all spells from the cleric list + 2 domain lists + 2
> granted powers + 1 additional spell per level.
>
> It struck me as very similar to the specialized wizard who gains a
> "granted power" (+1 spelllevel) and additional spell per spelllevel -
> but without any penalties.
>
> What I wanted to show was a way to emulate the 2E system of spheres
> without having to compare every 3E spell with the 2E spell list and look
> which sphere it was.
>
> 3E itself has a negligible restriction in that a good cleric of a god
> can´t cast evil spells (chaotic-law is similar).
> I thought to retain the flavour of specialty priests in Birhtright (even
> if 3E has dropped them) it would be possible to create an easy rule like
> I suggested
> Only 2 chosen domains full access, all the other domains minor (spell
> level 0-3) access, domains your god has not no access.
> Clerical spells without a domain listed (as Bless) could still be cast
> by all clerics.
>
> I found that not too harsh, as 2E Clerics had similar restrictions to
> spellcasting - they were after all only part spellcasters as opposed to
> the physically weak true spellcaster, the wizard.
>
> A variant rule, not so harsh could be:
> Major access to the spells of domains your god has and all spells on the
> cleric list which do not list a domain, minor access to the other domain
> spells (only level 0-3, even if they are listed as Clr X spell, you have
> no access to the spell if it is a e.g. Chaos domain spell and your god
> has not Chaos in his list).
>
> No access only to that spells that are opposed to domains of your god
> (good-evil, law-chaos, Healing-Destruction) or your alignment (good
> -evil spells).
> bye
> Michael Romes
>
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Cheers
Bjørn

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[Green Knight]

"Dr. Travis Doom" wrote

> Mechanically, this might avoid the problem but it would conflict with the
> cannon "the magic taught by the bardic colleges was handed down by the
> elves". If something has to give, this might be the lesser evil.
> Definately an idea worth considering.
>
> - Doom

I have experimented with a separate bard class (called the skald for lack of a better name), that uses divine magic. Otherwise the class shares much with the bard class.

This lets me keep both the 2E bard, and introduce a bard that doesn`t break with the cannon above. I use it mainly for the Rjurik and the Vos, who I feel have (for very different reasons) need for their own tradition, not handed down from the elves. the class can also be used with goblins and other such creatures.

Well, I suppose it doesn`t solve the problem discussed here; just an idea really.

Cheers
Bjørn

Cheers
Bjørn

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer
of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).
>

Good idea actually. this also solves the eternal question of bardic
armor-wearing and generally powers up the class some - which itneeds. I say
keep spell list selection and spontaneous castin as it is - there is no rule
saying that all divine casters have access to all their spells, or that they
cannot be spontaneous casters. in fact, the Oriental Adventures Shugenja is
precisely that.

/Carl


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[irdeggman]

Making the bard a divine caster causes many more problems than it solves. It violates the core cannon material for one, which is really beyond our ability to change. The fact that bards can wear armor while casting isn't an issue, so can wizards and sorcerers, they all suffer from the % failure for arcane casting associated with the armor. Bards just get the feats for free as starting class abilities.

In 2nd ed this wasn't a problem because ot was never addressed. Wizards just couldn't cast spells while wearing armor and bards couldn's if they wore anything about leather (or was it studded leather). This mechanic has vanished and to try to bring it back will cause nothing but problems in the future. Peole will have tremendous problems trying to mesh future D&D products with the Birthright setting if the mechanics don't mesh.

I also have trouble resolving the associating of Cuirecean with bards. He was never very artsy or storytelling oriented. More of deity of action than philosophy (something generally associated with bards).

Creating a new bard like class is a different matter, although IMO it would just complicate the current system without really adding any substantial benefit, core and whatever we come up with for Birthright. This could be done - we'd only have to resolve if it should or shouldn't be done.

[Perhelion]

First of all - Well done!
Very nice crisp presentation of our favourite setting.

As far as the 3ed clerics are concerned, I agree that I dislike the too similar priests of 3ed and am now trying (PURELY on a house rule basis) to remove automatic access to the 'generic' cleric spells and assign all spells to at least one domain. This obviously means that some domains will end up with more spells than others, and that a cleric will probably require access to more domains than at the moment, but I'll see if I can sort that out. I realise that it greatly changes the role of the cleric, and greatly reduces his versatility (e.g. most clerics won't be able to cure wounds) and magical potential, except in his domains - and that's what I am looking for. The specialisation of the clerics will mean that you will, for instance, seek out a priest(ess) of Nesirie when you require healing, a priest of Haelyn for Justice and visit Sarimie and Nesirie before setting out on a long sea voyage. As in 3ed multiclassing is so easy, it should not cripple the PC while still allowing him access to powerful albeit specialised spells.

My rather wordy 2cp...

[ConjurerDragon]

Perhelion wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>
> Perhelion wrote:
> First of all - Well done!
>Very nice crisp presentation of our favourite setting.
>
Mmmh, I suddenly remember that I have only critisized and suggest, but
forgot to say that with the expected differences the draft 0.0 could
easily be named at least 0.5 IMO ;-)

>As far as the 3ed clerics are concerned, I agree that I dislike the too similar priests of 3ed and am now trying (PURELY on a house rule basis)
>
Why so PURELY on a house rule basis?
2E Birthright had specialty priests, 3E Birthright could have them as
well - even when only as a mentioned Variant, but more than one of
thousand house rules.

> to remove automatic access to the `generic` cleric spells and assign all spells to at least one domain. This obviously means that some domains will end up with more spells than others, and that a cleric will probably require access to more domains than at the moment, but I`ll see if I can sort that out. I realise that it greatly changes the role of the cleric, and greatly reduces his versatility (e.g. most clerics won`t be able to cure wounds) and magical potential, except in his domains - and that`s what I am looking for.
>
I fully agree :-)

>The specialisation of the clerics will mean that you will, for instance, seek out a priest(ess) of Nesirie when you require healing, a priest of Haelyn for Justice and visit Sarimie and Nesirie before setting out on a long sea voyage. As in 3ed multiclassing is so easy, it should not cripple the PC while still
> allowing him access to powerful albeit specialised spells.
>
Mmmh, Multiclassing is easy in 3E - however you certainly do not mean a
warpriest of Belinike multiclassing to a healer of Nesierie or such
weird things? If the gods allow their priest at all (and I would not) to
follow another god (by multiclassing to a priest of Haelyn/priest of
Nesierie for example) then only among the allied gods, never to foes,
not even to neutral gods.


Why do you want to assign EVERY spell from the "generic" cleric list to
a domain? In my earlier suggestion about re-creating an easily usable
rule to specialize 3E Priests I have already offered two variants:

A priest chooses 2 domains and gets the granted powers from the god of
his choice - just as any 3E priest.

Variant 1 heavily restricted spell-casting as in 2E Birthright:
- all spells from his 2 chosen domains (similar to major access in 2E);
- only minor access (to use the 2E words) to the other domains of his
god (= only 0,1,2,3 level spells);
- no access to domains that his god does not grant.

e.g. A priest of Haelyn who choses the Justice and Law domains can cast
all spells on this two lists.
He can cast level 0, 1, 2, 3 (minor spells) from the Good, Nobility and
War domains as the other domains of Haelyn.
He can cast all spells on the Clr (Clerical list) that do not have any
domain associated with them (e.g. Animal Messenger, Bless, even
high-level ones without a domain listed, e.g. Banishment (level 6) or
Energy Drain (level 9) - this would resemble a sort of universal school
of spells available to all priests.

He can cast no spells that have a domain listed that his god does not
grant (e.g. Chaos - even Animate Objects which normally would be
available to all Clerics as a 6th level spell).

In this variant the priest would be somewhat similar to the 2E Magician.
He would have 3 "schools" of spells (his 2 chosen domains and the
"universal=no domain listed Clr spells", level 0,1,2,3 spells from a few
other domains and be barred from all other spells.

As he has full armour without spell failure chance he is however still
better off than the Magician but he loses lots of spells.
Variant 1 would have very different priests, even of the same god.

Variant 2: As before the 2 domains of choice + granted powers, plus
- all spells from all the domains of his god (even if they are only in
the domain list of his god, and not on the Clr spell list, such as Acid
Fog which is no Clr spell, but a Water spell - would be available to a
cleric of - mmh, noone? I notice for the first time that Nesirie does
not grant Water domain of the PHB??? O.K. lets take Fog Cloud for
example: It´s on both the PHB water domain and the Birthright Sea domain
- any priest of Nesirie of sufficient caster level can cast it - even if
he had chosen only the granted powers/domains of Good and Healing.
- minor access (level 0,1,2,3 spells) from the domains not in his gods
list but no higher spells - even if that spells have a Clr association;
- no access to domains opposed to his alignment or his gods portfolio
(good priest - EVIL domain; God with Law domain as Haelyn - CHAOS domain)

This variant has more spells than Variant 1 and priest of the same god
will all have access to the same spells.
However a priest of Haelyn will never cast e.g. Discern Location as it
has Knowledge Domain which Haelyn does not grant, or Dispel Law to which
Haelyns Law domain is opposed, or Divination (Knowledge).
A priest of Nesiere would never get Earthquake (normally Clr 8) as it is
part of the Destruction domain which is opposed to the Healing domain...

So we could re-produce the effects of 2E divine spell-casting
limitations without changing the spell lists from the PHB, only by
allowing each Cleric only a selected choice. And not all spells would
have to be assigned to one domain which then became very large - there
still can be some universal Clr spell list which then only includes
those spells which do not have a domain listed.
bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

There is a fundamental problem with placing all or nearly all of the clerical spells into a domain. In 3rd ed there is no more than a single spell of each level (and no 0-level spells) associated with a domain. Now almost all spells belong to a set school and usually a subschool, for example cure light wounds belongs to the Conjuration school and the healing subschool - it is calssified as a Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and RGR 1 spell - which corresponds to the spell level on the appropriate spell list.

We've got to stop thinking in 2nd edition terminology. It is gone and not coming back it is not being supported by Wizards or even Dungeon magazine for that matter. If someone wants to play 2nd edition rules (and there are many out there) then continue to do so only don't try to mix and match between the two systems - they are fundamentally different.

Even the Dark Sun 3d ed conversion at Athas.org didn't reclassify all of the divine spells into different domains or schools. In Dark Sun all clerics gain their spells from the elements (air, earth, fire, water) or para-elements (magma, rain, silt, wind) and the remaining spells (mostly) were put into the "sphere" of cosmos which only druids had major access to. Instead of putting all the divine spells into one of the listed categories (spheres, etc.) the Athas.org development group opted to remain true to the 3rd edition D&D concepts and kept the clerical spell list and druid spell list and created several domains (again only 1 spell per level of 1st and above). If they can do it that way we certainly can since Birthright was no where near a split or restrictive on divine casters as was Dark Sun.

All of the proposals concerning this concept violate core 3rd ed D&D concepts. If desired we can create brand new divine casting classes with a spell list for each and level-based abilities that match the 2nd ed system. In this case they would no longer be clerics and shouldn't gain the spontaneous healing ability that 3rd ed clerics gain now, since it is reserved for the cleric class only. Druids, paladins, rangers, adepts, etc. do not get it.

Again if people wish to continue to play 2nd edition rules than by all means do so, there are a lot of people out there that want it this way - not just in Birthright. But if we wish to recreate Birthright into the 3rd edition D&D system then we need to follow the core 3rd edition D&D rules (from the PHB, DMG and MM) in order to do it. We really can't be true to anything if we are "splitting the difference" and trying to do both things. It really has to be one way or the other or else it will never be compatable with any future D&D products.

Let's pick a path (2nd edition or 3rd edition) and go that way.([_]

[Green Knight]

irdeggman wrote:


>There is a fundamental problem with placing all or nearly all of the
>clerical spells into a domain. In 3rd ed there is no more than a
single >spell of each level (and no 0-level spells) associated with a
domain. Now >almost all spells belong to a set school and usually a
subschool, for >example cure light wounds belongs to the Conjuration
school and the healing >subschool - it is calssified as a Brd 1, Clr 1,
Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and >RGR 1 spell - which corresponds to the
spell level on the appropriate spell >list.

It should be noted that BR wouldn`t be the first d20 addition that had
more than 1 spell/level for cleric domains (S&C has done it).

It wouldn`t be that weird to go all the way and assign all spells to a
domain, then kill the cleric spell list.

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[ConjurerDragon]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:00:35 +0100, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Eian_S=F8rgjerd?=
<bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET> wrote:

> irdeggman wrote:
>>There is a fundamental problem with placing all or nearly all of the
>>clerical spells into a domain. In 3rd ed there is no more than a
>single >spell of each level (and no 0-level spells) associated with a
>domain. Now >almost all spells belong to a set school and usually a
>subschool, for >example cure light wounds belongs to the Conjuration
>school and the healing >subschool - it is calssified as a Brd 1, Clr 1,
>Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and >RGR 1 spell - which corresponds to the
>spell level on the appropriate spell >list.
>
>It should be noted that BR wouldn`t be the first d20 addition that had
>more than 1 spell/level for cleric domains (S&C has done it).
>
>It wouldn`t be that weird to go all the way and assign all spells to a
>domain, then kill the cleric spell list.

That would not be necessary. Even the 2E clerics had an "ALL" sphere to
which nearly all gods granted major access. Leaving the 3E spells which have
no domain, but Clr listed in the "all", "universal" or whatever domain to
which all clerics have access would not be too much.
bye
Michael Romes

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[DanMcSorley]

Originally posted by The Green Knight
It wouldn`t be that weird to go all the way and assign all spells to a
domain, then kill the cleric spell list.

Yes it would, because we're not rewriting 3e. 3e provides a mechanic for specialized priests, in fact all of them are specialized by default, having a couple of domains they choose. The rest of the spells are available to all clerics by design.

[Perhelion]

In my case, I decided to kill the generic cleric group because it regrouped some spells that I do not believe are 'generic' priest spells (e.g. Energy drain, which sounds more like death or evil to me). I ressurected the warding domain to regroup the alarm etc. spells, assigned Scrying to knowledge etc. That leaves many gaps that will need to be filled, but I believe it should be possible to have at least one spell/level/domain. To have a reasonable spell list, the priests would need to have access to a number of domains, at the moment up to 6-8 domains, of which he would choose two as his major domains (and gain the usual benefits). He would still have access to all spells from all other domains granted by his deity.
Concerning the remark about 3ed clerics vs. 2ed specialty priests, i must say I don't like generic clerics anyways. Each god is different, each priest should be too in my opinion. That was one of the major strengths of the BR setting in my eyes. I'd agree toatallty with ditching the generic cleric and replacing it with specialty priests (each with unique powers, much like the druid's abilities).
Concerning multiclassing I meant that you could take other classes to supplement the priest class, I didn't mean multiclass between faiths (doesn't make sense really).
These views are of course purely my own, and even though I always tamper with the rules and disregard/modify those that I don't like, I fully understand that the object of this exercise is to make a set of BR campaign setting rules that do not stray too far from the original.

[ConjurerDragon]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:28:59 +0100, irdeggman <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> There is a fundamental problem with placing all or nearly all of the
clerical spells into a domain. In 3rd ed there is no more than a single
spell of each level (and no 0-level spells) associated with a domain. Now
almost all spells belong to a set school and usually a subschool, for
example cure light wounds belongs to the Conjuration school and the healing
subschool - it is calssified as a Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and
RGR 1 spell - which corresponds to the spell level on the appropriate spell
list.
>We`ve got to stop thinking in 2nd edition terminology. It is gone and not
coming back it is not being supported by Wizards or even Dungeon magazine
for that matter. If someone wants to play 2nd edition rules (and there are
many out there) then continue to do so only don`t try to mix and match
between the two systems - they are fundamentally different.
>Even the Dark Sun 3d ed conversion at Athas.org didn`t reclassify all of
the divine spells into different domains or schools. In Dark Sun all clerics
gain their spells from the elements (air, earth, fire, water) or
para-elements (magma, rain, silt, wind) and the remaining spells (mostly)
were put into the "sphere" of cosmos which only druids had major access
to. Instead of putting all the divine spells into one of the listed
categories (spheres, etc.) the Athas.org development group opted to remain
true to the 3rd edition D&D concepts and kept the clerical spell list and
druid spell list and created several domains (again only 1 spell per level
of 1st and above). If they can do it that way we certainly can since
Birthright was no where near a split or restrictive on divine casters as was
Dark Sun.
>All of the proposals concerning this concept violate core 3rd ed D&D
concepts. If desired we can create brand new divine casting classes with a
spell list for each and level-based abilities that match the 2nd ed system.
In this case they would no longer be clerics and shouldn`t gain the
spontaneous healing ability that 3rd ed clerics gain now, since it is
reserved for the cleric class only. Druids, paladins, rangers, adepts, etc.
do not get it.
>Again if people wish to continue to play 2nd edition rules than by all
means do so, there are a lot of people out there that want it this way - not
just in Birthright. But if we wish to recreate Birthright into the 3rd
edition D&D system then we need to follow the core 3rd edition D&D rules
(from the PHB, DMG and MM) in order to do it. We really can`t be true to
anything if we are "splitting the difference" and trying to do both
things. It really has to be one way or the other or else it will never be
compatable with any future D&D products.
>Let`s pick a path (2nd edition or 3rd edition) and go that way.([_]

Mmmh. 2E Birthright had limited arcane magic by introducing the True Wizard
requirement bloodlines and the Magician with limited powers. Divine Magic
was also rare, as clerics were limited in their access to spells as
specialty priests and had higher ability requirements than the standard 2E
cleric.

So 2E Birthright was a rare magic world, both in the arcane and the divine.

By having the 3E cleric go unchanged into the Birthright world, it is no
longer a rare divine magic world, as suddenly all clerics have access to
nearly all spells (except the small limitation of opposed domains).

So 3E Birthright would be a world in which arcane magic is still rare, but
divine magic not - and thus be different from 2E Birthright as a world, not
just the rules how to act there.

It is like saying that the 3E PHB Wizard has no bloodline restriction listed
and so all humans in Birthright must be able to become true wizards - only
difference is that 3E PHB Clerics have no longer restricted spell selection
and so Clerics in Birhtright have (or have to have?) access to nearly all
spells.

It is certainly a problem. Having the unchanged 3E Cleric in Birthright
makes the world change from 2E Birthright to 3E Birthright. Having clerics
with a smaller selection of spells means having a difference between the 3E
cleric and the Birthright Cleric - the last why not? The Birthright Wizard
and Magician are different from 3E, why can´t the Cleric be different from
3E core?

A variant rule would not need to be so drastic to assing ALL "Clr" spells to
a domain and give the clerics of different gods only access to several of
those domains. Those "Clr" spells which have no domain associated (which are
several, e.g. Animal Messenger, Atonement, Augury, Bane, Banishment, Bestow
Curse, Bless, Bless Water, Blindness/Deafness,Command, Commune, Comprehend
Languages, and so on...). This spells would still be available to all
Clerics, just like the old 2E "All" sphere.
To avoid misunderstanding I do not mean the school/domain listed right below
the name of the spell in the PHB (e.g. Abjuration for Atonement), but that
written in the Level: field (e.g. Abjuration Level: Clr 5, Drd 5).

To really avoid misunderstanding: A variant Birthright cleric would not be
able to cast a spell of level 4+ from any domain that his god does not have
in his domain list (e.g. Healing Domain "Cure Critical Wounds" can only be
cast by clerics whose god has Healing in his domain list).

So a priest of Haelyn would not be able to cast e.g. Cure Critical Wounds as
Haelyn does not list Healing domain, True Seeing as Haelyn has not the
Knowledge domain. However that priest of Haelyn would still be able to cast
all "Clr" Spells that have no domain description listed.
bye
Michael Romes

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> It is certainly a problem. Having the unchanged 3E Cleric in Birthright
> makes the world change from 2E Birthright to 3E Birthright. Having clerics
> with a smaller selection of spells means having a difference between the 3E
> cleric and the Birthright Cleric - the last why not? The Birthright Wizard
> and Magician are different from 3E, why can´t the Cleric be different from
> 3E core?

The Birthright wizard is not different. The game assumes PCs will be
blooded rulers, so it`s not a restriction at all for the heroes that
wizards have to be blooded.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[irdeggman]

Since every deity has between 4 and 5 domains, maybe 6 - but that is extremely rare then a cleric would be limited to only 4 to 6 spells of any given level that is above level 3? Seems rather limiting doesn't it? Also how would the spontaneous cure/inflict cleric ability be handled? There are many divine spells that aren't associated with "domains".

Either rewrite every Birthright cleric as a separate class with their own spell list (a daunting effort to say the least), including level based class abilties or just use the 3rd ed cleric system with domains (and their granted abilities). These are the only 2 options that fit the core D&D rules.

[ConjurerDragon]

DanMcSorley wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>
> DanMcSorley wrote:
>
Originally posted by The Green Knight
>It wouldn`t be that weird to go all the way and assign all spells to a
>domain, then kill the cleric spell list.
>
>Yes it would, because we`re not rewriting 3e. 3e provides a mechanic for specialized priests, in fact all of them are specialized by default, having a couple of domains they choose. The rest of the spells are available to all clerics by design.
>
3E has specialized priests?
I did not read all that is about priests, but as far as I understood the
"specialization" of 3E Priests only means that:
they have in addition to having access to the Clr spell lsit, access to
18 spells (9 from 2 domains) to which they in part already have access
as they are already on the Clr list (e.g. Find the Path - it is in the
Knowledge domain, but also a Clr 6 spell), that they may memorize 1
additional spell from one of these two domains and that they get 2
granted powers from that domains.

These are all good things which come in addition to having access to all
the spells from the Clr list.

Specialization, however is the opposite of versatility, it does not come
on top of it.

The 3E specialized Wizard for example, gets 1 bonus spell slot as well
like the 3E priest, the spec. Wizard gets a "granted power" advantage
for being a specialist in the school he chose - however the specialist
wizard has to forfeit one or more schools of magic to become a
specialist and more powerful in one school.

Now if the "specialized" 3E priest gets 2 granted powers and an
additional spell slot, what does he give up in versatility to become
that more specialized and powerful? As far as I see - nothing.

So 3E priests differ only in the additional advantages they chose but
are to a large part identical to each other - be they priests of Belinik
or Nesirie, whereas 2E priests of different gods had very different
access to spells.

3E Priests rob the priests of different gods of their identity, of their
flavour, their specialty.

In addition it unbalances the divine -arcane spellcaster balance in
Birthright.

2E Priests were limited spellcasters, 2E Wizards full.
Both had advantages (e.g. full armour and free agitate and GB collection
for Priests) and disadvantages (no armour, lower hd for wizards) to
balance it out.

While I could see a "cloistered cleric" (like Travis Dooms 3E manual
mentioned) to have a broader access to spells for giving up his heavy
armour proficiency and medium armour proficiency and shield proficieny
and blunt martial weapon proficiency and his higher hd, I can´t see the
3E Priest as fitting in the Birthright world unchanged.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Since every deity has between 4 and 5 domains, maybe 6 - but that is extremely rare then a cleric would be limited to only 4 to 6 spells of any given level that is above level 3? Seems rather limiting doesn`t it? Also how would the spontaneous cure/inflict cleric ability be
>
>handled? There are many divine spells that aren`t associated with "domains".
>
I do not know if you reply to me or the other writer who loved to see
specialized clerics. If to me then it is simpls: Those spells that are
listed as "Clr" and are not associated with a domain would be available
to all priests, like the old "All" Sphere. I have already mentioned that
in my suggestion for a priest Birthright variant.

This would mean that every cleric, while being limited would still have
access to more than 4-6 spells per level above spelllevel 3, e.g.
Banishment is on the Clr list, but has no domain listed in the level
field, so it would be available to all Clerics as well as Commune or
Ethereal Jaunt or Forbiddance or Gate, IMO.

>Either rewrite every Birthright cleric as a separate class with their own spell list (a daunting effort to say the least),
>
And not necessary. Even in 2E there was not a spelllist for every god´s
clerics, but one list split up in spheres. Now it´s split up in domains
and an "universal"/"all" domain (all of the Clr list without a
domainlevel listed).
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1271
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Since every deity has between 4 and 5 domains, maybe 6 - but that is
extremely rare then a cleric would be limited to only 4 to 6 spells of any
given level that is above level 3? Seems rather limiting doesn`t it? Also
how would the spontaneous cure/inflict cleric ability be handled? There are
many divine spells that aren`t associated with "domains".
>

First, let me say that I`m opposed to the idea of domain spells only for BR
clerics - simply because I find that nobody ever wants to play a cleric
despite their vast improvement in 3E.

But, despite this, I see some promise in this idea. I thing that if you
restrict clerics to spells from only some domains, but let clerics cast
spells spontaneously like sorcerers, this could be a good mix. Fewer spells
to choose from, but free selection from these few spells when you want to
cast your spell. This could work.


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[Yair]

Coming back to the original thread topic...

Thanks for the guys that did the conversion. Overall, I and my group really liked it - just about every part of it. I was particularly pleased with the way you did the character and bloodline chapters, if I need to choose favorites. There are some nit-bits I don't like in those (probably because being familiar with d20 rules I feel I know enough to judge them adequently), but overall very well done. I also liked the "spell-slots" of blood abilities and "combat-actions" of the domain turn - it made explaining and understanding the rules much simpler. Good idea, that one.
I won't expand on what I didn't like. Not on this thread.

BTW, after seeing the preview design, I am definitely waiting for the revised edition...

[oximoron]

Chosing to limit clerics to Domains is a fundamental diffrence between 2e and 3e, I personally like the 3e version more, instead of doing the limiting by spheres as in 2e (which was actually a much disliked part of 2e although there are few always those who liked it(actually according to the team that designed much of 3e many people ignored this rule altogether)) it might be better to take a look at the clerical spell selection for 3e and say that those are banned spells for clerics of those gods(create greater undead for eric for example) also if you want to remove a large part of the spell selection for clerics it would also be neccessary as a balancing point to give the cleric more feats depending on how much of the spells you remove, although the more spells you remove the more the cleric begins to resemble the fighter class in abilities

[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
Realm spells like "Maintain Armies" were written so that they could only
be cast by Priests of Avani with the Major Creation sphere, not by the
Priests of Cuiraceen or Haelyn. Haelynite priests were dependant on
priests of Nesirie for highlevel healing and divination spells. Priests
of different gods supplemented their powers and teamwork with the
priests of gods thatt were "allied" with your god was encouraged.


Then it's the type of magic, Realm Magic, which needs to be made distinct. Perhaps instead of merely being a spell on the cleric list, it's listed separately, with requirements which must be met before you can learn the spell. That's pretty easy to do without changing core classes, core spell lists, or core mechanics.



The whole problem of resurrection was not so problematic, as not all
gods even granted resurrectiion (a spell of that level from the
Necromantic sphere required major access to that sphere which as far as
I remember only Nesirie, Ruornil, Sera, Eloele and Kriesha had. "Mosts
sects of Erik and Belinik..." as in the draft 0.0 mentioned would never
have been able to even cast the spell.


In my opinion, any "holy" servant of a god should be able to restore life to the dead. After all, the gods are what give life to the world, right?



Yes, it is. As I wrote, the 2E system of limiting spell availability to
the powers of the followed god made much more sense to me, than the 3E
system of allowing all spells from the cleric list + 2 domain lists + 2
granted powers + 1 additional spell per level.

It struck me as very similar to the specialized wizard who gains a
"granted power" (+1 spelllevel) and additional spell per spelllevel -
but without any penalties.


Well, clerics have an alignment restriction (must stay true to your god, after all), whereas wizards don't. Wizards also gain a familiar, and five bonus feats. Clerics gain turn undead and domain powers (turn undead and a familiar scale with level). Clerics are more combat oriented, and wizards should have more skill points (they are an intelligence-based class, after all), so clerics have a definite advantage, but not as much as one might think.



3E itself has a negligible restriction in that a good cleric of a god
can´t cast evil spells (chaotic-law is similar).


Negligible? I think not. It shows that even if you want to (y'know, to be able to power game), you cannot go against your basic nature, or your god's nature, since you can't cast spells opposed to your god's nature.

So, a neutral good cleric of a lawful good god cannot cast Chaotic or Evil spells.



I thought to retain the flavour of specialty priests in Birhtright (even
if 3E has dropped them) it would be possible to create an easy rule like
I suggested
Only 2 chosen domains full access, all the other domains minor (spell
level 0-3) access, domains your god has not no access.
Clerical spells without a domain listed (as Bless) could still be cast
by all clerics.


There are no 0-level domain spells.



No access only to that spells that are opposed to domains of your god
(good-evil, law-chaos, Healing-Destruction) or your alignment (good
-evil spells).


What if your god is a nature god, patron of the cleansing forest fire (Destruction) and the rebirth of life (Healing)? Destruction is not against his nature, nor is Healing. However, Good and Evil are complete opposites.