Chapter 1: Character Races

[jaldaen]

I started this thread after reading the plan and seeing the request to put the chapter and topic into the subject line... if need be please put this into one of the other race threads or vice versa.

The following is a (simple) system I have developed to approximate the strength of races (and perhaps even classes though I’ve not used it for such). This first post will deal with the current PHB versions of each race and serve as an example of how the system works so that when I post the Birthright races you can see the differences and variance of power from the PHB to the Birthright races (or lack thereof). If you disagree with any of my takes on any of the below point totals please present your case and I will (as time permits) attempt to address your concerns… This is my own opinion based off of a (semi-logical) point system please do not take this as unwavering truth ;-)


First of the assumptions:

1) Ability score adjustments in the PHB are balanced (some might disagree, but I’m going off of the DMG rules).
2) Size categories are balanced (again some might disagree, but WotC seems to think so).

Type of Racial Ability Points

Great Weakness -5
Moderate Weakness -3
Weakness -1
Insignificant .5*
Minor 1
Moderate 3
Powerful 5
* This is primarily used for Human Cultural Traits for Birthright (due to their lesser nature)

Modifiers**
Conditional (Rare) +/-0
Conditional (Restrictive) +/-0
Conditional (Uncommon +/-1
Conditional (Common) +/-2
Player Chosen +3
** Only use one of these and halve the modifier when in conjunction with Human Cultural Traits. Also note that the conditions do depend somewhat on the GM and adventure, but I am thinking of this from a purely mechanical viewpoint not from any specific campaign.

Humans:
Extra Feat: 8 points (Powerful; Player chosen).
Extra Skills: 8 points (Powerful; Player chosen).
Favored Class (Any): 4 (Minor; Player chosen [I say this b/c essentially humans do in a way chose their favored class by being careful how they take class levels]).
Total Points: 20.

Dwarves:
Darkvision: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
Slower than Normal Speed: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Stonecunning: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
+2 vs. Poison: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
+2 vs. Spells/Spell-like effects: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
+1 vs. Orcs, etc: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+4 vs. Giants: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 to Appraise: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 to Craft: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Fighter): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 21.

Elves:

Trance: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Low-light Vision: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Immunity to Sleep: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 vs. Enchantment: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Proficiencies: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Elf Senses: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Wizard): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 24.

Gnomes:
Low-light Vision: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
+2 vs.Illusions: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
+1 vs.Goblins, etc: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+4 vs. Giants: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 to Listen: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Alchemy: 2 (Minor; Conditional [uncommon])
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Speak with animals (burrowing): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Cantrips (as a group): 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Favored Class (Illusionist): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 25.

Half-Elves:
Low-light Vision: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Immunity to Sleep: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 vs. Enchantment: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Elven Blood: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Elf Senses: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Any): 4 (Minor; Player chosen [see humans above]).
Total Points: 18.

Half-Orc:

Darkvision: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
Orc Blood: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Barbarian): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 10.

Halfling:
+2 to Climb: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Jump: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Move Silently: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Listen: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+1 to saving throws: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
+2 vs. Fear: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
+1 to thrown: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Rogue): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 27.

PHB Racial Ranking:

Halflings (27)
Gnomes (25)
Elves (24)
Dwarves (21)
Humans (20)
Half-elves (18)
Half-orcs (10)

If you have any comments/criticisms on the above please be constructive with them... it will help yourself, the designers, and myself in the long run to make the Birthright conversion even better than it already is.

Thanks,
Joseph

[jaldaen]

Now for the Birthright Races:

Human:
Anuirean
+1 to Will: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+1 to Bluff: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
+1 to Sense Motive: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
+1 to Knowledge (Nobility): .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
Total Points: 25.5

Brecht
+1 to Initiative: 1.5 (Insignificant; Conditional [common])
+1 to Reflex: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
Cultural Class Skills: .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])*
Total Points: 25

*My reading of “are considered class skills for you at first level” means that they are only considered class skills at first level is this a correct reading?

Khanasi
+1 to Diplomacy: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
+1 to Knowledge (any): 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
+1 Spellcraft: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
Cultural Class Skills: .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])*
Total Points: 23.5

Rjurik
+1 to Fortitude: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+1 to Wilderness Lore: .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
Cultural Class Skills: .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])*
Total Points: 24

Vos
+2 to Strength for purposes of carrying capacity: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+1 to Wilderness Lore (cold/tundra): .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
Cultural Class Skills: .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])*
Total Points: 24

Dwarves
+2 AC vs. Orog, etc.: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Increased Density: 6 (Powerful; Conditional [uncommon]).
Enduring Strength: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Total Points: 35

Elves
Proficiency (short sword): .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
Timeless: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Immunity to Natural Disease: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
Natural Stride: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
Alignment Resriction: -1 (Minor, Conditional [restrictive])
Total Points: 39

Gnomes (none in Birthright)

Half-elves
+2 vs. Disease: 2 (Minor; Conditional [uncommon])
+2 vs. aging: 1 (Minor; Conditional [rare])
Total Points: 21

Half-orcs (None in Birthright)

Halflings
Shadow Sense: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
Total Points: 34

Birthright Ranking:

Elves (39)
Dwarves (35)
Halflings (34)
Humans (23.5-25.5)
Half-elves (21)

PHB-Birthright Comparison

Halflings 27-37 (+10… 37% increase compared to PHB version)
Elves 24-39 (+15… 62% increase compared to PHB version)
Dwarves 21-35 (+14… 67% increase compared to PHB version)
Humans 20-[23.5-25.5] (+3.5-5.5… 18-28% increase compared to PHB version)
Half-elves 18-21 (+3… 17% increase compared to PHB version)

So what can I say in light of the above rankings and comparison of the races:

1) Halflings gain a lesser percentage increase in power over their PHB counterparts, than either elves or dwarves, but slightly more than humans or half-elves. They are a close third in power to the elves.
2) Elves in Birthright are more powerful than any of the other races. They also gain a greater percentage increase in their total power when compared to their PHB counterparts. Finally, they are almost twice as powerful than either human or half-elves Birthright characters.
3) Dwarves are second overall in power and gain significantly over their PHB relatives. They like halflings and elves are quite a bit more powerful than humans.
4) The various human cultures vary in power and do not gain near as much of an increase in power as elves and dwarves over their PHB counterparts.
5) Half-elves are still at the bottom of the rung power wise and like humans they do not gain near as much of an increase in power as halflings, elves, and dwarves over their PHB counterparts.

Now that I’ve taken the time to break down the PHB and Birthright races if you have any comments/suggestions/criticisms of the above ranking system please post them and if you may some constructive thoughts on how either this system can be used to help balance (or prove the balance of) the races, how it can be tweaked and made more accurate, or some other advice or observation that is relevant.
Thank You,
Joseph Miller

[Shade]

Offhand, I`d say I really like your thought process behind developing this
system. Its greatest strength is that it gives you a very good idea of
whether a race is dramatically unbalanced relative to another. While I
think a different approach could be more useful, ultimately balancing the
races using a combination of your system and mine (I use the word "mine"
loosely) might be the best way to come up with a good result.

However, my chief criticisms are as follows:

1. Overall I think that your system is not specific enough when you get
down to the nitty gritty. It gives you a really good idea of whether a race
is vastly over or underpowered relative to another, but when you are in the
tweaking phase of getting everything perfectly equalized it becomes less
useful.

The analogy I`d use is that your system is like using a telescope to find a
distant planet, and that my system is studying an organism on that planet
using a microscope. You can`t find an organism with a telescope, but it
does a great job of telling you where to look. On the other hand, a
microscope focuses on such small details that you may miss something as
large as a planet.

2. I disagree on some of the specific values you`ve assigned to different
abilities, but I do like the general paradigm and mode of thinking that
this system uses.

For instance, I think that a +1 to a saving throw is quite a bit better
than insignificant. Along the same lines increased density is WAY better
than moderate/conditional[restrictive]. I would say at least 1/4th of
attacks you take are bludgeoning, and taking half damage from each of those
is just sweet. Taking half damage from 1/3-1/4th of all attacks is in a
way, on average, like taking 12-16% less damage overall.

I speak from experience because I`ve had many PC dwarves pick the increased
density ability from the 2e Player`s Option: Skills & Powers (in non-BR
settings) and it has proved immensely useful time and again. Off the bat,
you fear club-wielding ogres or giants a lot less, zombies are almost
completely nonthreatening, and a dragon`s crush or tail slap becomes much
less cause for concern. Also anyone trying to use martial arts against you
is toast, because kicks and punches are all bludgeoning attacks. Oil of
Impact? Ha!

At 06:41 AM 2/6/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1274
>
> jaldaen wrote:
> Now for the Birthright Races:
>
>Human:
>Anuirean
>+1 to Will: 1.5 (Insignificant; Conditional [common])
>+1 to Bluff: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
>+1 to Sense Motive: 1 (Insignificant; Conditional [uncommon])
>+1 to Knowledge (Nobility): .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
>Total Points: 24

>*My reading of “are considered class skills for you at first level” means
that they >are only considered class skills at first level is this a
correct reading?

I don`t believe so. I think they permanently become class skills.

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Shade
Offhand, I`d say I really like your thought process behind developing this
system. Its greatest strength is that it gives you a very good idea of
whether a race is dramatically unbalanced relative to another. While I
think a different approach could be more useful, ultimately balancing the
races using a combination of your system and mine (I use the word "mine"
loosely) might be the best way to come up with a good result.

Mine is meant to be much more overarching than your "feat" based system... though I would put forward that you could easily adapt my approach to yours... as you mention in your racial balance thread how although some of the humans gain more "feats" than others that those "feats" are not necessarily equal (IIRC).


Originally posted by Shade
However, my chief criticisms are as follows:

1. Overall I think that your system is not specific enough when you get
down to the nitty gritty. It gives you a really good idea of whether a race
is vastly over or underpowered relative to another, but when you are in the
tweaking phase of getting everything perfectly equalized it becomes less
useful.


A fair criticism though I would put forward that we can never really "perfectly" balance the races (not even WotC has claimed that, yet... ;-)... only get them to the point were they are approximately balanced.

Though as you said both of our approaches have strengths and weaknesses... so perhaps the best approach would be to use the two concepts to check and reaffirm... as much as that is possible ;-)


Originally posted by Shade
2. I disagree on some of the specific values you`ve assigned to different
abilities, but I do like the general paradigm and mode of thinking that
this system uses.

For instance, I think that a +1 to a saving throw is quite a bit better
than insignificant. Along the same lines increased density is WAY better
than moderate/conditional[restrictive]. I would say at least 1/4th of
attacks you take are bludgeoning, and taking half damage from each of those
is just sweet. Taking half damage from 1/3-1/4th of all attacks is in a
way, on average, like taking 12-16% less damage overall.


So than perhaps the +1 a saving throw should be minor and for the increased density perhaps Powerful/conditional [restrictive]... this would btw have the same effect as Moderate conditional (common)... are these good compromises?


Originally posted by Shade
I don`t believe so. I think they permanently become class skills.


I posted a thread on this as it is slightly confusing and could be clearer.

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

[Shade]

>Though as you said both of our approaches have strengths and weaknesses...
so perhaps the best approach would be to use the two concepts to check and
reaffirm... as much as that is possible ;-)

I think this is a good idea :o


>So than perhaps the +1 a saving throw should be minor and for the
increased density perhaps Powerful/conditional [restrictive]... this would
btw have the same effect as Moderate conditional (common)... are these good
compromises?

IMO it is a powerful ability, and should be at least uncommon.. an ability
you get to use in some form or fashion every adventure should be uncommon
at the very least, right?

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Shade
I think this is a good idea :o

>So than perhaps the +1 a saving throw should be minor and for the
increased density perhaps Powerful/conditional [restrictive]... this would
btw have the same effect as Moderate conditional (common)... are these good
compromises?

IMO it is a powerful ability, and should be at least uncommon.. an ability
you get to use in some form or fashion every adventure should be uncommon
at the very least, right?


So Increased Density should be Powerful conditional (uncommon)... and here is an explaination of frequencies:

Common: Is useful on a daily or almost daily basis.
Uncommon: Is likely to be used at least once during an adventure.
Rare: Unlikely to be a part of every adventure, but is a possibility for some.
Restrictive: Applies to only a particular usually DM controlled circumstance.

Note that I will probably be modifying the description and points of the above races as I come across inconsistancies or have them pointed out (such as the ones Shade just did).

Thanks,
Joseph

PS: I have amended the above Birthright point totals to reflect the changes discussed above... these make dwarves essentially gain as much as elves do in their translation to Birthright and increases the percentage increase in power for the human cultures.

[jaldaen]

Now unfortunately I do not have the Birthright CS as I donated it to my local university's gaming club... so I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to put down the human cultural modifiers so that I can perhaps come up with some suggestions that might be "balanced" according to the above system.

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

PS: If you could do the same with the other races that would be much appreciated as well. ;-)

[doom]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:41:06AM +0100, jaldaen wrote:

> *My reading of are considered class skills for you at first level
> means that they are only considered class skills at first level is this
> a correct reading?

That is correct. A Khinasi character (raised in the Khinasi manner)
treats all knowledge skills as class skills at first level only. Feats
and/or class selection dominate all future advancement. This ability
was meant to "represent" the high availablility of education (and its
value) in Khinais culture... but not to provide an unlimited potential
for educaton for a character that did not take concious decsions to
_further_ that education. In other words, a Khinasi starts with an
opportunity to have an Education (if they want to spend the skill points),
but this early education does not necessarily have life-time learning
advantages.

> Elves
> Proficiency (short sword): .5 (Insignificant; Conditional [restrictive])
> Timeless: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
> Immunity to Natural Disease: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
> Natural Stride: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
> Alignment Resriction: -1 (Minor, Conditional [restrictive])
> Total Points: 39

Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you may
want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your calculation.
Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
BR campaigns).

I think an interesting "Test" of your system would be to apply it the
the races in the FRCS and see if there is a "margin" in which the point
totals equate to an +1 or +2 ECL.

________
/. Doom@cs.wright.edu

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:
> That is correct. A Khinasi character (raised in the Khinasi manner)
> treats all knowledge skills as class skills at first level only. Feats
> and/or class selection dominate all future advancement. This ability
> was meant to "represent" the high availablility of education (and its
> value) in Khinais culture... but not to provide an unlimited potential
> for educaton for a character that did not take concious decsions to
> _further_ that education. In other words, a Khinasi starts with an
> opportunity to have an Education (if they want to spend the skill points),
> but this early education does not necessarily have life-time learning
> advantages.

This ignores the class skill rules. If a skill is ever a class skill for
you, it always is, for purposes of the max skill ranks you can have.

> Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you may
> want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your calculation.
> Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
> interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
> BR campaigns).

Doesn`t matter. You don`t balance mechanical benefits with roleplaying
disadvantages, ever.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by doom
That is correct. A Khinasi character (raised in the Khinasi manner)
treats all knowledge skills as class skills at first level only. Feats
and/or class selection dominate all future advancement. This ability
was meant to "represent" the high availablility of education (and its
value) in Khinais culture... but not to provide an unlimited potential
for educaton for a character that did not take concious decsions to
_further_ that education. In other words, a Khinasi starts with an
opportunity to have an Education (if they want to spend the skill points),
but this early education does not necessarily have life-time learning
advantages.


Well... at first I was fine with the concept of treating those skills as class skills for 1st level only... but as Birthright-L (that nick sometimes confuses me, but I love it ;-) points out it "ignores" the class skill rules system. Though it would probably be more of a "confusing" of the class skill rules which could be clarified. I say this for the following reasons:

Having the skills only count as class skills for 1st level brings up the question of what is the max skill rank of such skills when the character's chosen class does not have that skill as a class skill?

The following are the options I can think of:

a) Does the max skill ranks follow the normal rules for cross class skills thereafter, thus restricting the character from putting skill points into those skills until such time as they reach a level that allows them to put skill points into said skill. For Example: if I put 4 ranks into Knowledge (religion) as a Khinasi Fighter at first level due to the cross skill max ranks I would not be able to put another skill point into Knowledge (religion) until I was at least 6th level (when the max skill rank goes up to 4.5). This seems the worse answer as it is hardly a benefit at all b/c although you get that initial benefit it quickly fades to nothing.

B) The max skill ranks is actually based on the normal rules for class skill thereafter, thus the character can spend two skill points per level to continue to advance in that particular skill at a normal rate. For Example: if I put 4 ranks into Knowledge (religion) as a Khinasi Fighter at first level I would at 2nd level (and every level therafter) have the option to spend up to two skill points on Knowledge (religion) and increase it according to the cross class rules (1 skill point for .5 in cross class skill). This seems a better possibility than option a, but has its own drawnbacks... and it could be said that at this point you might as well just make the skill a class skill and do away with the "unnessary" complication that this option entails.

c) Make it a class skill period... this solves all questions and needs no further explaination.

d) If you wish to keep the skills to cross class after 1st level, but not have the benefits "disappear" by 6th level then you might consider the following... not only say that they gain a skill as a class skill for 1st level only, but also say that their max ranks in that skill is at a +2 when it is a cross class skill. For Example: if I put 4 ranks into Knowledge (religion) as a Khinasi Fighter at first level I would at 2nd level (and every level therafter) have the option to spend up to one skill point on Knowledge (religion) to increase it by .5 with a max cross class skill rank of +2 to whatever the normal cross class skill max is (at 2nd level it is normally 2.5, so it would increase to 4.5). Note this would *not* affect the class skill max. This seems like a good compromise, but it adds a new layer of complexity that some my not like.


Originally posted by doom
Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you may
want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your calculation.
Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
BR campaigns).

I think an interesting "Test" of your system would be to apply it the
the races in the FRCS and see if there is a "margin" in which the point
totals equate to an +1 or +2 ECL.


As for the elven disadvantage I would have used it if I had found it in the racial traits... but I did not see it (is it meant to be there as a concrete racial penalty?)... also such "roleplaying" penalties would probably weigh only slightly in the above system as they would be considered [restrictive] for the most part.

Hope the above helps for the "1st level only class skills".

Good Gaming,
Joseph Miller

[Mark_Aurel]

In this case, I believe "b" follows the established 3e multiclassing rules, and should be the overall correct solution; if a skill has been a class skill at one point, the maximum rank for it is 3 + character level, and you can always max it out if you have skill points, though purchasing that skill may be at a cross-class cost. A fighter/rogue could use his fighter skill points to max out some of his rogue skills. In some cases, that would be bad buying habits, though, as you might end up effectively wasting skill points. The exception to this rule would be class-exclusive skills; you could only buy additional ranks in those skills when you advanced in a class that had the skill (i.e. rogue and use magic device), but you also have the option to max out in that case (i.e. a 5th level character taking a level of rogue and blowing all his skill points for that level on use magic device).

[doom]

On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 02:43:47PM -0500, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> > That is correct. A Khinasi character (raised in the Khinasi manner)
> > treats all knowledge skills as class skills at first level only. Feats
> > and/or class selection dominate all future advancement. This ability
> > was meant to "represent" the high availablility of education (and its
> > value) in Khinais culture... but not to provide an unlimited potential
> > for educaton for a character that did not take concious decsions to
> > _further_ that education. In other words, a Khinasi starts with an
> > opportunity to have an Education (if they want to spend the skill points),
> > but this early education does not necessarily have life-time learning
> > advantages.
>
> This ignores the class skill rules. If a skill is ever a class skill for
> you, it always is, for purposes of the max skill ranks you can have.

I`d argue that this fits in seamlessly with the existing class skill
rules. In effect, you`ve "Added" Knowledge (Any) to the class list of
the character`s first level class, but only at first level. The
maximum skills rank are exactly equivalent to what they would be for
any class which had Knowledge (Any) at first level. Future ranks,
however, cost 2 skill points unless the class in which advancement
takes place has the Knowledge skill as a normal class skill (as per
norm).

> Doesn`t matter. You don`t balance mechanical benefits with
> roleplaying disadvantages, ever.

I respectfully disagree with you. There are NUMEROUS game system in
which benefits are balanced with "roleplaying disadvantages": GURPS,
HERO, White Wolf, and AD&D 2e (Player`s Option), to name a few. I
agree that the designers of D&D 3e went to great lengths to remove
role-playing disadvantages from consideration. This is an appropriate
decision for a game system used in both role-playing heavy and
role-playing light games. I do not agree that this necessarily
provides a strict mandate that such factors are not worth considering
in a specific instance (in this case Elves in Birthright). Clearly
role-playing consideration shoudl not dominate, but IMHO, they are
ALWAYS worth considering (particularly in the BRCS - a work which is,
fundamentally, about a specific role-playing setting for a campaign).

- Doom

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
In this case, I believe "b" follows the established 3e multiclassing rules, and should be the overall correct solution; if a skill has been a class skill at one point, the maximum rank for it is 3 + character level, and you can always max it out if you have skill points, though purchasing that skill may be at a cross-class cost. A fighter/rogue could use his fighter skill points to max out some of his rogue skills. In some cases, that would be bad buying habits, though, as you might end up effectively wasting skill points. The exception to this rule would be class-exclusive skills; you could only buy additional ranks in those skills when you advanced in a class that had the skill (i.e. rogue and use magic device), but you also have the option to max out in that case (i.e. a 5th level character taking a level of rogue and blowing all his skill points for that level on use magic device).

Thanks for the prompt reply ;-)

I would suggest making the above clear in the cultural traits section (or skill section) so that players and DMs will know how these cultural class skills work...

Now for another question that I forgot to ask... If you don't put any skill points into a skill would you still gain the above mentioned benefit... For example: at 1st level the Khinasi fighter does not choose to put any ranks into Knowledge (religion)... would he still have the 3 + character level max? I would probably say so for simplicity's sake, but it is a possible point of confusion that may come up...

IF I think of any other questions I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

[Solmyr]

daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> > Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you may
> > want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your calculation.
> > Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
> > interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
> > BR campaigns).
>
> Doesn`t matter. You don`t balance mechanical benefits with roleplaying
> disadvantages, ever.

Especially since this "disadvantage" is never applied in practice (one
only has to look at PBEMs and the wide-eyed awe that elf domains tend to
receive, no matter what they do; speeches like "all this land once
belonged to the elves, so they are right and we are wrong" coming
routinely from humans, etc).

--

Solmyr of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/
The Archmage`s Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/
"War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left."

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Solmyr wrote:
> > > Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you may
> > > want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your calculation.
> > > Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
> > > interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
> > > BR campaigns).
> >
> > Doesn`t matter. You don`t balance mechanical benefits with roleplaying
> > disadvantages, ever.
>
> Especially since this "disadvantage" is never applied in practice (one
> only has to look at PBEMs and the wide-eyed awe that elf domains tend to
> receive, no matter what they do; speeches like "all this land once
> belonged to the elves, so they are right and we are wrong" coming
> routinely from humans, etc).

That is exactly the reason. Many of the 2e kits were `balanced` this way,
and they were awful. Roleplaying disadvantages don`t work in practice to
balance mechanical advantages, so they shouldn`t be written into the
rules. As it stands now, Cerilian elves at least, and maybe the dwarves,
need an ECL modifier.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

> Especially since this "disadvantage" is never applied in practice (one
> only has to look at PBEMs and the wide-eyed awe that elf domains tend to
> receive, no matter what they do; speeches like "all this land once
> belonged to the elves, so they are right and we are wrong" coming
> routinely from humans, etc).

That is exactly the reason. Many of the 2e kits were `balanced` this way,
and they were awful. Roleplaying disadvantages don`t work in practice to
balance mechanical advantages, so they shouldn`t be written into the
rules. As it stands now, Cerilian elves at least, and maybe the dwarves,
need an ECL modifier.


I agree with you that roleplaying disadvantages are "insignificant", but I think it is okay to use such in an overall view of a race. Note that when I say insignificant I'm talking about it in regards to the above system as well as to the "penalty" that is "suffered" by the PC...

Thus such a roleplaying penalty would only be .5 points on my scale... hardly worth noting... still though I would only consider weighing such "role-playing" penalties if their was a concrete and spelled out penalty... which I do not see thus far in the BRCS-playtest version.

Such "insignificant" penalties would need to be in the vien of:

Birthright Elves have a -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Innuendo, and Sense Motive when dealing with non-elves.

Now that is a "penalty" I can consider when determining the power levels of a race.

Good Gaming!
Joseph Miller

[Malice3679]

> > Since your system takes notes of disadvantages as well as advantages you
may
> > want to add in a rather serious disadvantage for Elves into your
calculation.
> > Elves, being distrusted (at best) by most human races find it harder to
> > interact with humans characters (generally the predominate race in most
> > BR campaigns).
>
> Doesn`t matter. You don`t balance mechanical benefits with roleplaying
> disadvantages, ever.

Ja...as an example, in the old Street Fighter storytelling game, cyborgs and
animal hybrids were released in the Player`s Guide...and their "drawbacks"
were reduced interaction in social situations...

Now, the game was about martial artists traveling around the world and
kicking each others` butts. Three guesses as to just how often that
disadvantage came into play...=P

FWIW, though, I used one cyborg NPC in my game, and one of the PCs had an
easier time with him then he did a well-balanced "normal" fighter.

Tommy
Who Isn`t Sure He Made The Point That He Was Trying To

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[Shade]

>Especially since this "disadvantage" is never applied in practice (one
>only has to look at PBEMs and the wide-eyed awe that elf domains tend to
>receive, no matter what they do; speeches like "all this land once
>belonged to the elves, so they are right and we are wrong" coming
>routinely from humans, etc).

Yeah, but there`s a lot of really bad roleplaying in PBeMs too..

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[geeman]

At 04:52 PM 2/6/2003 -0500, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>Many of the 2e kits were `balanced` this way, and they were
>awful. Roleplaying disadvantages don`t work in practice to balance
>mechanical advantages, so they shouldn`t be written into the rules.

I posted a bunch of stuff on disadvantages or drawbacks for 3e a while
back. What I found was necessary to prevent a min/maxing problem (not that
I want to rehash that little debate) is that the disadvantage should take
effect to blunt or eliminate what would otherwise be a bonus. The
disadvantage that gave a character a penalty to initiative checks, for
example, had a Dex 13+ requirement. That prevents players (or DMs) from
taking that disadvantage in a way that makes no effective different to the
character`s stats.

When it comes to role-playing disadvantages, I agree that they should not
be used to balance game mechanical disadvantages because, in effect,
role-playing disadvantages can be role-played around. I like to encourage
role-playing, but I`d suggest that there is good role-playing in which a
player is "in character" and there`s role-playing that a player does that
is mostly a chore, one that must be performed repetitively, so role-playing
around a role-playing disadvantage can often turn into a struggle of wills
between player and DM. Aside from which, without some pretty elaborate
guidelines for how the role-playing disadvantage takes effect, players try
to do the minimum role-playing to satisfy the situation, because they are
really interested in gaining the advantage, not engaging in role-playing a
disadvantage. That puts the DM into more of the parental/babysitter
position than I am personally comfortable with. If one enjoys that kind of
interaction with players then I say go for it, but institutionalizing it
into a system of play is probably not a good idea.

>As it stands now, Cerilian elves at least, and maybe the dwarves, need an
>ECL modifier.

I`m going to take advantage of this to describe some of my current thinking
on this kind of thing.

One of the weird things about D20 is that there are really two broad
categories of beneficial character class traits, and in order to reflect
things like ECL for a race I think there needs to be a bit of description
of what those things are. For the purpose of discussing here I`m going to
dub them "flat bonuses" and there are "multipliers."

Flat bonuses are those that simply add a one time bonus to a particular
class feature. Flat bonuses are things like an increase to a particular
aspect of the game mechanics, like the +4 to initiative checks made by the
Improved Initiative feat. Most of the racial bonuses are flat. Then there
are "multipliers." Multipliers are traits that that go up each level,
effectively turning character level into a multiplier. The bonus skill
points of human characters, for example, are multipliers. Bonuses to
ability scores usually effectively become multipliers because most of the
ability score bonuses are multiplied by character level to increase some
basic aspect of character class; hit points, skill points, number of
spells, etc. That`s not always the case, however. A few ability scores
don`t always act as multipliers.

Bonuses from ability scores are often both flat and
multipliers. Intelligence, for example, gives a flat bonus to performing
various skill checks, and a multiplier when it comes to skill
points. Other ability score bonuses are only flat. The bonuses from
strength are not in and of themselves multipliers, nor are the bonuses for
dexterity, and there are few character class special abilities that use
those ability scores as multipliers. Depending on character class wisdom
and charisma are not multipliers either--though those characters who have
high scores in those abilities tend to take advantage of that by levelling
up in characters classes in which they operate as multipliers. One needs
to take the overall effect of ability scores into account when determining
the ECL of a race. A race that gets +2 to intelligence, for instance, gets
for all intents and purposes the human racial "multiplier" bonus to skill
points, plus a flat bonus to intelligence based skill checks, and a
possible multiplier bonus to spells.

At first, flat bonuses would appear to be easier to rate for ECL, but in
actuality multipliers probably are. Multipliers often fit right into the
character class system and are, therefore, easily equated to particular
character class features. The bonus skill points of human characters, for
instance, is worth exactly as much as a skill point. One way to look at
this is that flat bonuses equate to the effect of levelling up once, while
multipliers become the equivalent of character class features.

The trick then is determining the relative value of flat bonuses and
multipliers. Flat bonuses can add up to an ECL, but multipliers can
provide a much more drastic effect and should probably be rated differently.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Gary wrote:
> The trick then is determining the relative value of flat bonuses and
> multipliers. Flat bonuses can add up to an ECL, but multipliers can
> provide a much more drastic effect and should probably be rated
> differently.

I don`t think so. They`re all most important at low levels. By high
levels, individual skill ranks (the `multiplier` example) tend not to
matter, as there are innumerable spells, items, and party aids which can
render skill checks unimportant. Likewise, darkvision, stonecunning,
saving throw bonuses, immunity to /sleep/, etc, the flat bonuses, also
tend to be supplanted by charater abilities and magic. By mid to high
levels, racial bonuses don`t matter much at all, so it`s best to just aim
for equivilance at 1st character level and let it go from there.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

I posted a slightly different version of this over in the other races thread, but also wanted to bring this thread back on topic... I thought the best way to do that would be to present the following possible Human Culture modifiers that I think are fairly balanced with regards to each other:

Anuirean:

+1 Will save
+1 to Sense Motive
+1 to Administrate
-1 Reflex save
-1 to Initiative

Brecht:

+1 Reflex save
+1 to Initiative
-1 Will save
-2 to Wilderness Lore

Khinasi:

+1 to Knowledge (any one)
+1 to Appraise
-1 to Fortitude saves

Rjurik:

+1 to Fortitude saves
+1 to any checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time (running, swimming, hold your breath, etc).
-1 to Bluff
-1 to Diplomacy
-1 to Disguise
-1 to Gather Information

Vos:

+2 to Strength for purposes of determining carrying capacity
+2 to Strength checks (not skills).
-1 to all Knowledge skills
All Vos are considered illiterate (Barbarian Vos must spend 4 skill points to become literate instead of the normal 2 skill points).

What do you all think?

I tried to keep to benefits and drawbacks that reflect the ability score adjustments from the original Birthright and the cultures as presented in the BRCS-playtest version.

Note that these are for the most part very different from what is currently in the BRCS-playtest version, but I thought I would present them as an alternative to the "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach the Birthright Team has taken and the "use the PHB Human" concept that Birthright-L has put forth...

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by doom
I think an interesting "Test" of your system would be to apply it the
the races in the FRCS and see if there is a "margin" in which the point
totals equate to an +1 or +2 ECL.


Missed this upon the first read through... anyone care to post the racial traits of a FRCS race or two? Then again perhaps I could just use some of the examples from the DMG... I'll let you know what I come up with in a day or two...

Thanks,
Joseph

[Shade]

At 10:01 PM 2/6/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Gary wrote:
>> The trick then is determining the relative value of flat bonuses and
>> multipliers. Flat bonuses can add up to an ECL, but multipliers can
>> provide a much more drastic effect and should probably be rated
>> differently.
>
>I don`t think so. They`re all most important at low levels. By high
>levels, individual skill ranks (the `multiplier` example) tend not to
>matter, as there are innumerable spells, items, and party aids which can
>render skill checks unimportant. Likewise, darkvision, stonecunning,
>saving throw bonuses, immunity to /sleep/, etc, the flat bonuses, also
>tend to be supplanted by charater abilities and magic. By mid to high
>levels, racial bonuses don`t matter much at all, so it`s best to just aim
>for equivilance at 1st character level and let it go from there.

Daniel I have agreed with the vast majority of your posts so far but I
strongly disagree here. I think endgame balance is far more important, but
this is a personal bias of mine.

From the perspective of endgame balance anything that gives a +ECL is the
worst possible choice for a spellcaster. At character level 17, would you
rather be a human 17th level wizard and have access to 9th level spells, or
be a 16th level caster with a +1 ECL race and have access to 8th level
spells? I promise you that 9th level spells are way better than any benefit
the +1 ECL gave you.

BUT

This only means that I don`t like +ECL for a caster. I think we should
strive for balance at the early levels but definitely keep the endgame in
mind, and make sure that a race does get enough benefits to warrant a +1
ECL.

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
> This only means that I don`t like +ECL for a caster. I think we should
> strive for balance at the early levels but definitely keep the endgame in
> mind, and make sure that a race does get enough benefits to warrant a +1
> ECL.

Actually, I think it would be better to go the other way around, and make
the races all balance at ECL 0, then have extra abilities available as
racial feats. That way you don`t have the mixed party level problem as
much. ECLs are ok for rare races like half-dragons or something, but
elves, dwarves, and halflings are part of the standard schtick of D&D, and
I`d like them all to be playably even.

This has already been partially done, there`s a section marked racial
feats, we just have to take a couple of extra steps to ECL 0 out all the
races.

I`m going to reference some d20 books because I think they do just what I
mean here. This is already going to be d20 anyway, right? So it would
just be a matter of updating our license to use some good pre-existing d20
content.

For instance, Cerilian elves get permanent Pass Without Trace. In Heroes
of High Favor: Elves, there`s a nearly identical feat:

Feather Step; Benefit: While in your favored terrain, ground that you
traverse is considered one category firmer for all purposes (tracking,
footing, etc.). For example, you can travel on very soft snow-covered
ground as if it were soft ground instead, leaving only shallow footprints.
This feat works only while wearing light or no armor.

If we do this kind of thing, we can make the original Cerilian elf
buildable, but still a basic ECL 0, and it`s perfectly plausible that the
elves which venture into human lands often have this feat, leading to the
legend that all elves do this.

A note- there`s an error in the elf description (p15), they`re described
as having low light vision to 60 feat; that`s not the way low light vision
typically works, see the PHB elf for the usual way.

In a similar way, to the elf example, there`s a feat in HoHF:Dwarves,
which would easily replace Enduring Strength.

Sturdy Back: You are accustomed to carrying heavy loads over long
distances.
Benefit: When calculating your encumberance by weight, you count Heavy
loads as Medium, and Medium loads as Light. This has no effect on
reduction of movement due to encumberance by armor, which will reduce your
normal speed as normal.

If we do this a couple more times, we have ECL 0 races pretty easily.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[jaldaen]

At doom’s request I have taken the time to put together a test of my system by taking the goblin/hobgoblin, aasimar/tiefling, and gnoll/lizardfolk creatures and determining their point values the following is what I came up with:

ECL +0 Creatures

Goblin
Darkvison: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Dexterity: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
-2 Strength: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
-2 Charisma: -5 (Moderate Weakness; Conditional [common])
+4 to Move Silently 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
Favored Class (Rogue): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive])
Total Points: 8

Hobgoblin
Darkvison: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Dexterity: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Constitution: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+4 to Move Silently 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
Favored Class (Fighter): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 27

ECL +1 Creatures:

Aasimar
Outsider Type: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Darkvison: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
Acid Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
Cold Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
Electricity Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
+2 Wisdom: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Charisma: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
Light: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+2 to Listen: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+2 to Spot: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Paladin): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 40 points

Tiefling
Outsider Type: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Darkvison: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
Fire Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
Cold Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
Electricity Resistance 5: 5 (Powerful; Conditional [restrictive])
+2 Dexterity: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Intelligence: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
-2 Charisma: -5 (Moderate Weakness; Conditional [common])
Darkness: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+2 to Bluff: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+2 to Hide: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Rogue): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 37 points

ECL +2 Creatures

Gnoll
+4 Strength: 14 (Powerful [x2]; Conditional [common])
+2 Constitution: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
-2 Intelligence: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
-2 Charisma: -5 (Moderate Weakness; Conditional [common])
Darkvison: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 HD: 14 (Powerful [x2]; Conditional [common])
+1 to Attack: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+1 Natural armor: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+3 Fortitude saves: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+3 Listen: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
+3 Spot: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common])
-3 ranks/skill: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Power Attack: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
Weapon Proficiency: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restricted])
Favored Class (Ranger): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive])
Total Points: 47

Lizardfolk
+2 Strength: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
+2 Constitution: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common])
-2 Intelligence: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
+2 HD: 14 (Powerful [x2]; Conditional [common])
+1 to Attack: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+5 Natural armor: 10 (Moderate[x2]; Conditional [common])
+3 Reflex saves: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+6 to Jump: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
+8 to Swim: 6 (Powerful; Conditional [uncommon])
+4 to Balance: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
-3 ranks/skill: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Multiattack: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common])
Weapon Proficiency: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restricted])
Favored Class (druid): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive])
Total Points: 58

So what can be seen by the above breakdowns? Well it seems that around 37 points or so is where you get into +1 ECL range and around 50 is +2 ECL range...

So in light of this I would probably say that elves definately should be +1 ECL in their current state... with perhaps dwarves and halflings following suit... with not ECL +2 races out there... which is good.

Joseph Miller

[DanMcSorley]

Originally posted by jaldaen
So what can be seen by the above breakdowns? Well it seems that around 37 points or so is where you get into +1 ECL range and around 50 is +2 ECL range...

So in light of this I would probably say that elves definately should be +1 ECL in their current state... with perhaps dwarves and halflings following suit... with not ECL +2 races out there... which is good.


Interesting. So if we do go with feats for the elve's nature walk, the dwarves carrying, and the halfling's shadow sense, it looks like they're all pretty solidly in normal territory. Assuming your numbers are valid :)

[geeman]

At 10:01 PM 2/6/2003 -0500, Daniel McSorley wrote:

> > The trick then is determining the relative value of flat bonuses and
> > multipliers. Flat bonuses can add up to an ECL, but multipliers can
> > provide a much more drastic effect and should probably be rated
> > differently.
>
>I don`t think so. They`re all most important at low levels. By high
>levels, individual skill ranks (the `multiplier` example) tend not to
>matter, as there are innumerable spells, items, and party aids which can
>render skill checks unimportant. Likewise, darkvision, stonecunning,
>saving throw bonuses, immunity to /sleep/, etc, the flat bonuses, also
>tend to be supplanted by charater abilities and magic. By mid to high
>levels, racial bonuses don`t matter much at all, so it`s best to just aim
>for equivilance at 1st character level and let it go from there.

That`s true, but that`s because of the way the D&D magic system (both
spellcasting and magic items) works. D&D`s system of magic is a whole
different can of worms. Radioactive, stinky, carnivorous worms at
that.... The magic system is a black hole of gaming imbalance that whacks
the character class system around like a drunk pimp on a slow Saturday
night. If you add up character stats and special abilities for character
classes and then compare that to the magic system wizards come out way,
way, way ahead. In discussions of character balance in my gaming group
I`ve asked for a moratorium on the magic system because it is the exception
to all rules. For that reason, I think one really needs to talk about ECL
without going into the magic system and then try to tackle that gorilla
when it breaks into the nursery.

Gary

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[Mark_Aurel]

ECL +1 Creatures:

Aasimar
Outsider Type: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])


Not really; most of the time, being an outsider is a significant advantage. Outsiders are immune to things that specifically affect humanoids, like charm person, hold person, and such. In most cases, tieflings and aasimar are also "native" outsiders, which means they're not subject to being banished and dismissed and the like. 3.5e adds the "extraplanar" subtype which will deal more clearly with that issue; i.e. you'll have regular outsiders (aasimars and tieflings) and extraplanar outsiders (pit fiends and balors).

If you do not consider this a disadvantage, and weigh it at 0, aasimars end up at 47 in your tally, the same as gnolls. So, clearly, aasimars have much better racial abilities than gnolls do; the main reason for giving gnolls and lizardfolk ECLs boils back to their hit dice. Their ability adjustments, and the lizardfolk's natural armor bonus in particular is troubling as well, though. You could put it like this: The value of each monster hit dice is generally worse than that of each character level (i.e. fewer skill points, fewer feats, fewer specials, etc) - the difference for monsters like gnolls and lizardfolk is their secondary advantages. Without the extra hit dice, gnolls and lizardfolk would probably still warrant an ECL; +5 natural armor is HUGE, especially for a low-level character; +4 Str and +2 Con is also huge. In fact, I find +5 natural armor pretty troubling for a low-level character; you can easily get ACs past the mid-20s for a low-level lizardfolk fighter. Lizardfolks, on the balance, seems to be a better choice than gnolls in any case.

I'm still inherently skeptical to trying to be too precise in tallying up racial benefits in a numercial formula; or, rather, being precise, but not precise enough, which would be extremely difficult. It's still a good breakdown, and I'm going to examine it closely, along with the BR races.

[Green Knight]

Never applied? I have yet to see anyone picking an elf to play in any BR campaign of mine. They are just too weird and alien, and players don`t like the idea of not being able to interact properly with the rest of the world.

Still, I have the Sidhe at +2 ECL, and do not compensate them for this disadvantage.
>
> Especially since this "disadvantage" is never applied in practice (one
> only has to look at PBEMs and the wide-eyed awe that elf domains tend to
> receive, no matter what they do; speeches like "all this land once
> belonged to the elves, so they are right and we are wrong" coming
> routinely from humans, etc).
>
> --
>
> Solmyr of the Azure Star


Cheers
Bjørn

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[Birthright-L]

The difference between flat bonuses and multipliers (to use you terms) is
often illusory.

The reason is that flat bonuses canbe used to "peak out" a skill or ability,
makibg it better than it ever could be otherwise. A +4 bonus to Hide, for
example, makes the Halfling rogue better at hiding at ALL levels.

The same goes for attack bonuses. Weapon Focus becomes more valuable at
higher level. One way to visulaize this is to see how many gp the +1 attack
bonus from Weapon Focus is worth. As characters increase in levels, so does
the power fo their magical weapons. And bying one additional plus to a magic
weapon becomes increasingly expensive. OS, magic weapons do many things
(more damage, penetrate DR, greater hardness, better at sundering), but the
cost of these remain proportional - if we say that 1/4 of the price of a
magic weapon si for the attack bonus, the price of that 1/4 still increases
with character level. And thus the effective value of Weapon Focus increases
as well.

OK,this example might not be very good in Birthright, where there is no
market for magic items, but the trend is true even here.


__________________________________________________ ___
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Busenkelt!

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[irdeggman]

Something to consider before using the flat assumption that roleplaying penalties shouldn't be used to balance a races benefits is the domain system in Birthright. When a character is a regent the roleplaying disadvantages/advantages of racial interactions really comes into play. Alliances are extremely important as is the ability to establish guilds in foreign lands. Just a thought.

[irdeggman]

Re: gnomes in Birthright. I had thought that it was more widely believed that the reference to gnomes on the monster table in the 2nd BRRB was an editorial. Easily explained this was as the quality of all of the BR line was rather poor editing wise and the fact that gnomes are not mentioned anywhere else. They are not mentioned in the languages section, nor in any other Birthright document ever published.

Having said that, the BRRB only addresses Cerilia and not the other continents, so gnomes could quite possibly exist elsewhere on the planet - but the core rules should only address the "known" world in detail. The d20 Atlas would be the place to insert "new" races found in other locales (e.g., Aduria).

I have personally always liked gnomes, but the 2 D&D games I was playing (Dark Sun and Birthright) did not have them - very frustrating.

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
Interesting. So if we do go with feats for the elve's nature walk, the dwarves carrying, and the halfling's shadow sense, it looks like they're all pretty solidly in normal territory. Assuming your numbers are valid :)

A big assumption indeed, but that's why their are others out their to provide correction when I go wrong ;-)

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Not really; most of the time, being an outsider is a significant advantage. Outsiders are immune to things that specifically affect humanoids, like charm person, hold person, and such. In most cases, tieflings and aasimar are also "native" outsiders, which means they're not subject to being banished and dismissed and the like. 3.5e adds the "extraplanar" subtype which will deal more clearly with that issue; i.e. you'll have regular outsiders (aasimars and tieflings) and extraplanar outsiders (pit fiends and balors).

Good points on the charm person, etc... like I said earlier I forget things and that's why you guys are here... to remind me of what I've forgotten...

As for the "native" outsiders designation I have yet to see (or find) it spelled out in the SRD (do you have a location for the designation?)... but in fact I took that into account because I've heard so many people using the term and reading those spells they do state "extraplanar" creatures... which from my personal reading of the planetouched is not what they are...

The following is the main reason for the penalty:

Outsiders cannot be raised or resurrected only a wish/miracle spell can bring them back. (this is a great weakness in and of itself... at least to me).

Now that being said the other benefits that you mentioned *probably* equal out the above... so that would increase the Aasimar to 47 and Tiefling to 44...

The question now is did I actually over weight any of the other abilities of the aasimar or tieflings...

Looking them over I suppose I might have made the resistances count for too much... perhaps they would be better as Moderate [restrictive]... which would lower their scores back down to 41 and 38... an overall increase in their totals by +1... Does this sound right or do you believe that resistance 5 is a powerful ability?


Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
If you do not consider this a disadvantage, and weigh it at 0, aasimars end up at 47 in your tally, the same as gnolls. So, clearly, aasimars have much better racial abilities than gnolls do; the main reason for giving gnolls and lizardfolk ECLs boils back to their hit dice. Their ability adjustments, and the lizardfolk's natural armor bonus in particular is troubling as well, though. You could put it like this: The value of each monster hit dice is generally worse than that of each character level (i.e. fewer skill points, fewer feats, fewer specials, etc) - the difference for monsters like gnolls and lizardfolk is their secondary advantages. Without the extra hit dice, gnolls and lizardfolk would probably still warrant an ECL; +5 natural armor is HUGE, especially for a low-level character; +4 Str and +2 Con is also huge. In fact, I find +5 natural armor pretty troubling for a low-level character; you can easily get ACs past the mid-20s for a low-level lizardfolk fighter. Lizardfolks, on the balance, seems to be a better choice than gnolls in any case.

I'm still inherently skeptical to trying to be too precise in tallying up racial benefits in a numercial formula; or, rather, being precise, but not precise enough, which would be extremely difficult. It's still a good breakdown, and I'm going to examine it closely, along with the BR races.

That's really all I can ask is that you examine what this system *seems* to show... but I would like to say that if I did overweigh the elemental resistances than the elves, dwarves, and halflings would still be pushing toward the power level of the planetouched... and even if the elemental resistances are dead on the elves are not that far away from ECL +1

Thanks,
Joseph

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:

> I have yet to see anyone picking an elf to play in any BR campaign of
> mine. They are just too weird and alien, and players don`t like the
> idea of not being able to interact properly with the rest of the world.

I don`t ever have humans and elves cooperating. A BR adventure campaign
IMO should contain either only elves and half-elves, or no elves, but not
a mixture.

In a "to each his throne" campaign, though, the whole "party" is
*supposed* to go for each other`s throats, so mixing is fine. =)


Ryan Caveney

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[jaldaen]

Bringing this back on topic... what do people think of the "alternate" Human Cultural Traits I listed... do you think they capture the feel of the Birthright human cultures? Are they more or less desireable than those currently listed in the BRCS-playtest version? Any other comments?

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> Something to consider before using the flat assumption that
> roleplaying penalties shouldn`t be used to balance a races benefits
> is the domain system in Birthright. When a character is a regent the
> roleplaying disadvantages/advantages of racial interactions really
> comes into play. Alliances are extremely important as is the ability
> to establish guilds in foreign lands. Just a thought.

An interesting thought. Still no. If the demihumans got charisma skill
check penalties and penalties to domain actions involving other species,
that might be worth thinking about, but the above suggestion is still
`balance mechanical advantages with roleplaying penalties.`

And I think such a system is going to prove to be a monster to create. It
would be better to just give the elves, dwarves, and halflings an ECL +1,
or else featify a couple of their abilities.

I don`t think we have to tone them down completely to being standard
critters. But right now they`re over the top.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
> Bringing this back on topic... what do people think of the
> "alternate" Human Cultural Traits I listed... do you think they
> capture the feel of the Birthright human cultures? Are they more or
> less desireable than those currently listed in the BRCS-playtest
> version? Any other comments?

I still don`t like the concept of pluses and minuses for humans by
default. FRCS seems to have gone a good direction with this, having
regional feats. That should be the model to emulate.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Green Knight]

After numerous versions of humans, I finally ended up with the ol`
boring human from the PHB. It`s just to powerful and flexible to be
screwed with.

However, not wanting to give up on cultural differences, I made up six
background feats (only available during character creation). Also not
that I give all "heroic" characters a bonus starting feat, so picking a
background feat still leaves you with the normal number of feats (thus
this may not be appropriate for everybody).

The numbers and bonus types aren`t really that important and can easily
be changed, but you get the point. Btw "region" is just a way of showing
where this feat is the most commonly encountered.

Pureblood Andu [Background]
The blood of the ancient Andu runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Anuirean, Western Basin States, and Island States.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Sense Motive checks and a +1
synergy bonus on Will saves.

Pureblood Basarjï [Background]
The blood of the ancient Basarji runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Khinasi, and Eastern Marches.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy checks and a +1
synergy bonus on Reflex saves.

Pureblood Brecht [Background]
The blood of the ancient Brecht runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Brecht.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Bluff checks and a +1 synergy
bonus on Reflex saves.

Pureblood Masetian [Background]
The blood of the ancient Masetians runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Masetian, and Island States.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Perform checks and a +1 synergy
bonus on Will saves.

Pureblood Rjuven [Background]
The blood of the ancient Rjuven runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Rjurik, Northern Marches, Western Reaches, and Overlook.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Wilderness Lore checks and a +1
synergy bonus on Fortitude saves.

Pureblood Vos [Background]
The blood of the ancient Vos runs strong in your veins.
Region: Any Vos, Overlook, Zhaïnge Valley, and Docandragh.
Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Spellcraft checks and a +1
synergy bonus on Fortitude saves.

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[ConjurerDragon]

jaldaen wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1274
>...
>The following is the main reason for the penalty:
>Outsiders cannot be raised or resurrected only a wish/miracle spell can bring them back. (this is a great weakness in and of itself... at least to me).
>
When in Birthright resurrection is so rare and shunned that virtually
noone can expect to come back from the dead then it is no penalty at all ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Mark_Aurel]

As for the "native" outsiders designation I have yet to see (or find) it spelled out in the SRD (do you have a location for the designation?)... but in fact I took that into account because I've heard so many people using the term and reading those spells they do state "extraplanar" creatures... which from my personal reading of the planetouched is not what they are...

The following is the main reason for the penalty:

Outsiders cannot be raised or resurrected only a wish/miracle spell can bring them back. (this is a great weakness in and of itself... at least to me).

Now that being said the other benefits that you mentioned *probably* equal out the above... so that would increase the Aasimar to 47 and Tiefling to 44...

The question now is did I actually over weight any of the other abilities of the aasimar or tieflings...

Looking them over I suppose I might have made the resistances count for too much... perhaps they would be better as Moderate [restrictive]... which would lower their scores back down to 41 and 38... an overall increase in their totals by +1... Does this sound right or do you believe that resistance 5 is a powerful ability?


Well, the term "native outsider" stems from FR - basically, the idea is that outsiders born and bred on the material plane, like aasimars and tieflings, can't be banished from their home plane, any more than you could banish an angel in Heaven, or a devil in Hell. The raise/resurrection thing still stands, but that is extremely conditional - I'd rate immunity to charm/hold far higher, for low-level characters, anyway. That's the thing with the elemental resistances as well - they're very powerful for low-level characters, but for high-level characters, they're far less useful. At low level, aasimars and tieflings are definitely ECL races; for a 20th level character, though, the real value of their racial abilities is probably less than that of most PHB races, because a character at that level is likely to have better elemental resistances from items and spells anyway, and no one casts charm person at that level anyway. Maybe hold person. The real issue, then, is what the character would get at the level they start at for the ECL. I think that tieflings and aasimar are actually a bit weak for an ECL to begin with; if they'd get +2 more of ability adjustments or another minor spell-like ability, they'd be about just right. However, I can still see your point, and I'm still working it over mentally.

[Elrostar]

I'm kind of going off on something of a tangent here, and this information is all second-hand, but a friend of mine recently started using Mutants and Masterminds, which is a point-based d20 system. The interesting thing about that is that, since they have rebuilt the system as being point-based (to make it better for super-heroes) they have a pretty good way of determining the relative strengths of special abilities for races etc. Obviously, ones involving D&D-specific events such as resurrection aren't going to be covered, but I think it's worth checking that out in greater detail.

As I said, I haven't done more than simply skim the book, but I'll ask my friend about it more, since I seem to recall him having mentioned comparing the races from the PHB, and the Halfling coming out way ahead of the rest.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that comment in there.

Elrostar

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
When in Birthright resurrection is so rare and shunned that virtually
noone can expect to come back from the dead then it is no penalty at all ;-)
bye
Michael Romes


I understand that, but the way Birthright deals with resurrection is besides the point b/c the ECLs in the MM are based upon the "norm" and not any specific campaign...

Now as you say in Birthright such would not be a "penalty"... so in Birthright perhaps aasimar and tieflings should not have +1 ECL... but that does not affect the ECL of aasimar or tiefling characters under the norm... which is what I was using in the examples above.

Joseph Miller

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Elrostar
As I said, I haven't done more than simply skim the book, but I'll ask my friend about it more, since I seem to recall him having mentioned comparing the races from the PHB, and the Halfling coming out way ahead of the rest.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that comment in there.

Elrostar

I really need to take a look at M&M... sounds like a much more concise system then my own (and for good reason as they spent quite some time developing it ;-).

If you do have the rankings of the PHB races available that would be a great help to see how my system compares to theirs and if you could breakdown the Birthright races to boot that would be supper!

It is good to know that Halflings were ranked 1st according to M&M and the same with mine...

Joseph Miller

[ConjurerDragon]

jaldaen wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1274
>jaldaen wrote:
>
Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
>When in Birthright resurrection is so rare and shunned that virtually
>noone can expect to come back from the dead then it is no penalty at all ;-)
>bye
>Michael Romes
>
>I understand that, but the way Birthright deals with resurrection is besides the point b/c the ECLs in the MM are based upon the "norm" and not any specific campaign...
>Now as you say in Birthright such would not be a "penalty"... so in Birthright perhaps aasimar and tieflings should not have +1 ECL... but that does not affect the ECL of aasimar or tiefling characters under the norm... which is what I was using in the examples above.
>Joseph Miller
>
And the easiest way to avoid such problems is to leave Aasimars and
Tiefliengs as the norm and Birthright as a campaign setting which lives
secluded from the norm without Aasimars, Tiefliengs, Monks, Psionists
and such :-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
And the easiest way to avoid such problems is to leave Aasimars and
Tiefliengs as the norm and Birthright as a campaign setting which lives
secluded from the norm without Aasimars, Tiefliengs, Monks, Psionists
and such :-)
bye
Michael Romes


Ah... I see. You have misinterpreted what I am doing... I am not advocating any of the above...

I was asked by doom to take some of the ECL races from the FRCS (which I do not have, so I subbed in the MM ones) and run them through my system to find out what point values they had and then compare them to each other and the Birthright races... Note that this was for "comparison" purposes of perhaps determining whether any of the Birthright races might need to have a ECL in their current state, and *not* for the purpose of introducing aasimar, tieflings, etc...

I understand that it is quite easy to skim threads and miss important pieces of information so I will take the above as a misunderstanding and leave it at that...

However if you would like to comment on the purpose of this thread either upon the system, the power levels of the races, or how Human Cultural Traits should be handled then please do as I am sure you have some ideas from your impassioned position above ;-)

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[doom]

On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:02:56PM -0500, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> I still don`t like the concept of pluses and minuses for humans by
> default. FRCS seems to have gone a good direction with this, having
> regional feats. That should be the model to emulate.

Honestly, if the goal was to make a "base-line" human race, I`d almost
perfer to use the WoT model. Their decision to basically _require_
that humans spend their "bonus feat" and "bonus skill points" on
regionally acceptable feats and skills goes a long ways towards
"encouraging" characters to have regional flavor.

Of course, such restrictions are arguably a net loss (unless the
regional feats were somehow "good enough" to make up the difference).

- Doom

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[Eosin the Red]

> Honestly, if the goal was to make a "base-line" human race, I`d almost prefer to use the WoT model. Their decision to basically _require_ that humans spend their "bonus feat" and "bonus skill points" on regionally acceptable feats and skills goes a long ways towards "encouraging" characters to have regional flavor.
>
> Of course, such restrictions are arguably a net loss (unless the regional feats were somehow "good enough" to make up the difference).

> - Doom

Looking at the system presented and its relative unorthodox approach, I think using something at least similar to some of the published human variants would be wise. BR is, IMO, a humanocentic setting and should try to define those cultures more than baseline d20. The BRCS works for me but I do find it awkward in execution.

Rather than just WOTify the major races, I went a step further in my home system - I define humans that hale from the West Coast, Eastern Marches, Northern Marches, etc... but I only use Anuire and its close environs. So at my house, it is enough to define Brecht and Khinasi as one unit.

I do not know that I agree with the more restrictive comment. I guess I can see that when viewed in some ways. Allowing the "+4 Skill points" at first level to stack with normal skill selection - enhances the ability to create skilled individuals within the lower five levels. You don`t need to be a 10th level "Rjuvik Expert" to be good at Wilderness Lore.

I may try to finish my conversion this week and post it for destructi...discussion.

Eosin

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[Shade]

Nowhere in the rules is this spelled out. Furthermore, as someone pointed
out this roleplaying disadvantage can be "roleplayed" around, and it also
depends on DM enforcement.

> irdeggman wrote:
> Something to consider before using the flat assumption that roleplaying
penalties shouldn`t be used to balance a races benefits is the domain
system in Birthright. When a character is a regent the roleplaying
disadvantages/advantages of racial interactions really comes into play.
Alliances are extremely important as is the ability to establish guilds in
foreign lands. Just a thought.
>
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[Shade]

[snip]
>Pureblood Andu [Background]

>
>Pureblood Basarjï [Background]

>Pureblood Brecht [Background]

>Pureblood Masetian [Background]

>Pureblood Rjuven [Background]

>Pureblood Vos [Background]

[more snips]

I really like Bjorn`s background feats. I think they are well-conceived and
well-balanced. Along with my recent suggestion for the human races (allow
each player to choose to be a standard human OR get 1 extra class skill and
a fixed favored class), I think we can get something very closely
resembling the original BR humans.

For instance, combining Bjorn`s method and mine we could have:

Player decides to be Anuirean. He decides not to be a standard human, and
takes my modified Anuirean race instead, which gives him Favored Class:
Fighter and a choice of any 1 Wisdom skill OR Knowledge (Nobility) as a
class skill. He ends up picking Sense Motive.

So at 1st level:

Joe Blow, Male Human (Anuirean)

Favored Class: Fighter
Free Class Skill: Sense Motive (note that so far this is exactly balanced
with OA humans)
Human Bonus Feat: Pureblood Andu (+2 sense motive, +1 Will save)

This is very balanced vis-a-vis a 3e PHB human, and comes very close to the
spirit of the 2e Anuirean, ya? :)

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> Player decides to be Anuirean. He decides not to be a standard
> human, and takes my modified Anuirean race instead, which gives
> him Favored Class: Fighter and a choice of any 1 Wisdom skill OR
> Knowledge (Nobility) as a class skill. He ends up picking Sense Motive.

I agree with this in general, but I think a single class skill is a little
too little to get for giving up your freely selectable favored class [I know
this is how Oriental Adventured did things, but I`d say those characters are
weaker than standard humans]. Giving extra class skills at the price of
having fighter as a favored class is almost like saying that Ainurean
fighters get an extra extra class skill. Non-fighter humans can still come
from Anuire, and have access to the regional feats (which normally depend on
cultural familiarity, not your lineage), but don`t get the extra class
skill. So you must either FORCE Ainurean characters to take the Ainurean
racial package, or only fighters will do so. This is a bit silly.

I propose that if you are from Anuire, you can choose to have either one
freely selectable feat (like a standard human) or a selection of any three
regional/racial feats (possibly with a fixed favored class). Trade power for
flexibility. Regional feats could then add a favored class appropriate to
your race/region. This still allows Ainurean characters to play what is
essentially baseline humans with a freely selectible feat if they want to,
while giving a benefit to those who select to play in the cultural
archetype.

Of course, this would force some changes to the regional feats, but this is
a minor matter.


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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
I propose that if you are from Anuire, you can choose to have either one
freely selectable feat (like a standard human) or a selection of any three
regional/racial feats (possibly with a fixed favored class). Trade power for
flexibility. Regional feats could then add a favored class appropriate to
your race/region. This still allows Ainurean characters to play what is
essentially baseline humans with a freely selectible feat if they want to,
while giving a benefit to those who select to play in the cultural
archetype.

Of course, this would force some changes to the regional feats, but this is
a minor matter.


I do like this idea... though the real question if we do the above is whether or not we make the other races (dwarves, elves, and halflings) into ECL +1 races... which I think is the best option if you keep the humans on par with PHB humans... or if you cut most of the Birthright abilities out of the races to bring them to PHB levels...

I looked over the races and tried to cut them down to PHB levels, but found it quite difficult to do without leaving very little of the birthright flavor or cutting out important concepts... in fact here are my best attempts:

Dwarves:
Darkvision: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
Slower than Normal Speed: -7 (Great Weakness; Conditional [common])
Stonecunning: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
+2 vs. Poison: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
+2 vs. Spells/Spell-like effects: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Increased Density: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
Enduring Strength: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Favored Class (Fighter): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 26

Observations: Not much to cut here… since not much of the PHB benefits are in the Birthright version… but in the end I decided that doing away with the +2 AC vs. Orogs the best cut… from the PHB material… that still results in an increase in the BR dwarves’ power by about a fifth, but that actually is not bad as it also does not push them above PHB elves in power level (according to my point system). Still they are more powerful than PHB dwarves… the only other thing I can think of to cut would be the +2 vs Poison… cutting that would get them really close… within 1 point of the PHB dwarves, but I don’t know if that is desireable.

Elves:

Rest instead of Sleep: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Low-light Vision: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Immunity to Sleep: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
+2 vs. Enchantment: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Proficiencies: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Elf Senses: 5 (Moderate; Conditional [common]).
Timeless: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Immunity to Natural Disease: 4 (Moderate; Conditional [uncommon]).
Alignment Restriction: -1 (Minor, Conditional [restrictive])
Favored Class (Wizard): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points 29

Observations: Again not much to cut here… in the end I cut the Natural Stride ability… not my favorite option, but it was the best I could do and still keep some of the core concepts of the physiology of the Birthright elves… like the BR dwarves the elves by my count increase in power by one-fifth… not to much higher than the PHB halflings… Still they are more powerful than normal elves and I don’t see anything that can be cut that is not physiologically key to elves, except perhaps the weapon proficiencies… which would bring the elves within 2 points of the PHB elves…

Halfling:
Shadow Sense: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Move Silently: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+2 to Listen: 3 (Minor; Conditional [common]).
+1 to saving throws: 7 (Powerful; Conditional [common]).
+2 vs. Fear: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
+1 to thrown: 3 (Moderate; Conditional [restrictive]).
Automatic Languages: 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Favored Class (Rogue): 1 (Minor; Conditional [restrictive]).
Total Points: 28.

Observations: This one was slightly easier and in the end I cut the bonuses to Climb and Jump… this gets the halflings within 1 of their PHB kin (according to my point system)…

Overall Observations: If we cut the +2 to Poison from dwarves and weapon proficiencies from the elves we are pretty dare close to the PHB versions (within 1 to 2 points)… however I really think that the Birthright races should be +1 ECL and that they should get both the appropriate PHB abilities and their Birthright abilities...

But as can be seen from above it is possible to bring the races down to PHB levels and at least keep some if not most of the Birthright flavor), but is it desireable?

Take Care,
Joseph

[Elrostar]

Originally posted by jaldaen



Originally posted by Elrostar
As I said, I haven't done more than simply skim the book, but I'll ask my friend about it more, since I seem to recall him having mentioned comparing the races from the PHB, and the Halfling coming out way ahead of the rest.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that comment in there.

Elrostar

I really need to take a look at M&M... sounds like a much more concise system then my own (and for good reason as they spent quite some time developing it ;-).

If you do have the rankings of the PHB races available that would be a great help to see how my system compares to theirs and if you could breakdown the Birthright races to boot that would be supper!

It is good to know that Halflings were ranked 1st according to M&M and the same with mine...

Joseph Miller

Ok, so I asked my friend, and he sent me his calculations based on M&M. They seem to be much simpler than your system, and aren't geared towards BR, obviously, but anyway. Here they are:

Dwarf Racial Package 6 PP

Darkvision: 2 PP
Poison Resistance (+2) 2 PP
Magic Resistance (+2) 2 PP


Elf Racial Package 6 PP

Low light Vision: 2 PP
Immunity Magical Exhaustion: 1 PP
Magic Resistance (+2) (Enchantment Only) 1 PP
Super Senses [2 Ranks] (+2) (Listen, Search, & Spot Only) 2 PP


Gnome Racial Package 5 PP

Low Light Vision 2 PP
Magic Resistance (+2) (Illusion Only) 1 PP
Super Senses [2 Ranks] (+2) (Hearing & Smell Only) 2 PP

Half-Elf Racial Package 5 PP

Low light Vision: 2 PP
Immunity Magical Exhaustion: 1 PP
Magic Resistance (+2) (Enchantment Only) 1 PP
Super Senses [1 Ranks] (+1) (Listen, Search, & Spot Only) 1 PP


Half-Orc Racial Package 6 PP

Darkvision: 2 PP
Super Strength [2 Ranks] (+2) 8 PP


Halfling Racial Package 12 PP

Amazing Save (+2) (Fort, Will, Ref) 6 PP
Morale (+2) 2 PP
Super-Dexterity [2 Ranks] (+2) (Dex Check Bonus Only) 4 PP

So there you go :)

Elrostar

[Shade]

At 02:01 PM 2/6/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:41:06AM +0100, jaldaen wrote:
>
>> *My reading of are considered class skills for you at first level
>> means that they are only considered class skills at first level is this
>> a correct reading?
>
>That is correct. A Khinasi character (raised in the Khinasi manner)
>treats all knowledge skills as class skills at first level only. Feats
>and/or class selection dominate all future advancement. This ability
>was meant to "represent" the high availablility of education (and its
>value) in Khinais culture... but not to provide an unlimited potential
>for educaton for a character that did not take concious decsions to
>_further_ that education. In other words, a Khinasi starts with an
>opportunity to have an Education (if they want to spend the skill points),
>but this early education does not necessarily have life-time learning
>advantages.

This particular mechanic, getting class skills by virtue of your RACE at
1st level only, exists nowhere else in D&D and therefore I don`t think we
should use it. I`m not a big fan of "inventing" new rules unless it`s
absolutely necessary (as in the case of bloodlines).

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[Shade]

At 12:49 AM 2/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
>> This only means that I don`t like +ECL for a caster. I think we should
>> strive for balance at the early levels but definitely keep the endgame in
>> mind, and make sure that a race does get enough benefits to warrant a +1
>> ECL.
>
>Actually, I think it would be better to go the other way around, and make
>the races all balance at ECL 0, then have extra abilities available as
>racial feats. That way you don`t have the mixed party level problem as
>much. ECLs are ok for rare races like half-dragons or something, but
>elves, dwarves, and halflings are part of the standard schtick of D&D, and
>I`d like them all to be playably even.

One reason I don`t like the idea of using feats to get powerful racial
abilities is that a feat is something that is `learned,` and in many cases
a racial ability is something you automatically have by virtue of genetics.
Now I grant you that some racial abilities are learned, like the dodge
bonus vs orogs or the longsword/bow proficiency. On the other hand, how can
you `learn` something like doubling the density of your body? How do you
`learn` immortality, or the lack of a need to sleep?

For many racial abilities, getting them as a feat doesn`t make sense
logically to me.

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Shade
For many racial abilities, getting them as a feat doesn`t make sense
logically to me.


This is something I discovered when I tried to "cut" racial traits from the races... most are what we would consider physiological in nature and cannot be cut without changing the very nature of the race... that being said there are a few abilities that could be "cut" from each race that are not physiological in nature...

From the dwarves you can cut:

1) Appraise and Craft skill bonuses can be made into a racial feat.
2) The +2 AC vs. Orogs can be made into a racial feat.

From elves you can cut:

1) The weapon proficiencies can be made into a racial feat.

From halflings you can cut:

1) The +1 to thrown weapons can be made into a racial feat.

The above changes actually result in the following point totals from my system:

Dwarves (26)
Elves (30)
Halflings (30)

If you believe that -2 Strength is not balanced by +2 Dex than you might even be able to say that the elves and halflings are pretty balanced with the dwarf... So perhaps you can make the Birthright races ECL +0 and balanced in concerns with their PHB kin.

Take Care,
Joseph

[jaldaen]

I have returned from the land of illness and just wanted to see what people thought of the above idea for how to balance the races down to the PHB kin...

Jaldaen

[Yair]

Hi all.

Basically, I just wanted to chime in to let be known I, too, find the races unbalanced. Its not a big deal for my party (we aren't much when it comes to power gaming), but still.

It is, however, worth noting that the +1 skill point/level of humans means much more in the birthright game than it does in a standard D&D one, or at least I think so.

I basically agree with the designer's concept, as I see it, of making all the races more powerful than they were in the PHB. This allows one to retain the special abilities of the BR setting, without needing to use ECL. It also means humans should get boosted up, which they are. It seems the argument is only how much should each race be changed, and what amount of boosting needs to be made to each to reach an equal footing for all.

I believe the strongest race in the game are the elves. I also believe that depriving them of the pass without trace ability robs them of much of their charm, and so I propose keeping it. Name them Woodland Stride and Trackless Step to bring them into accord with d20 existing rules (the druid's 2nd and 3rd class abilities - it may be neccessary to compensate elven druids). These are not overly powerful abilities (they can be gained by a 3rd level character, as minor "perks" in addition to its spellcasting abilities), so I don't think its excessive.

On Humans: Leave the humans as they are in the PHB, and grant them one more "regional feat" for free. Perhaps two. Make two or three such feats for each region (allow some overlapping, though - both a Vos and a Rjurik may qualify for the Outdoorsman feat, for example). That makes the question a question about balancing feats - which I think is easier than balancing races as you have more examples, with the only difficult question remaining is how many feats to grant them (which I think can be done through either method used on this thread). Either way, as they are the humans I consider only slightly disadvantaged - them skill points are important.

I don't really have a solid opinion on the other races. I believe the dwarve's stone-like nature is better represented through a small damage reduction. Perhaps DR 1/- (as the Brb11 class special ability, but I consider it highly inflated in improtance). The halfling's detect-shadow abilites and access to shadow feats make him cool, but I think still a little under-powered for those not wanting to play on his shadowy feats. PrCs and other racial-only options should not be considered balancing factors, in my opinion - they are there to give options, not powers, remeber? More importantly, it nerfs those not wanting to go in the PrCs (or feat's) direction, which I consider to be too much pigeon-holing the characters.

[esmdev]

I just finished reading the thread, lots of information and good suggestions.

It struck me that the D20 modern occupation system could easily be modified to become a cultural system for Birthright or any other D20 game. Further, you can also include the elves, dwarves, halflings, etc., in this system by creating a few regional elf, dwarf, halfling, etc., cultures. While they certainly started off the same, Elves out in the east are probably culturally changed from those in the west.

One of the advantages to such a cultural system would be in choice. Using the existing, defined system from D20 modern you would present a list of skills and potentially a list of feats as well. If a culture gets a feat, it will likely get only one or two choices of skills, if a culture gets no feat it can get as many as three choices of skills. Skills selected become class skills, or +1 compentency bonuses if the skill is already classed.

Of course if one wanted to be really brutal on themselves, one could extend this all the way to starting countries - similar the the FRCS, but that would be really, really excessive given the number of countries that exist in Cerilia.

I've found the occupation system in D20 modern to be an interesting addition to the D20 system and definately something you might want to consider for this. It seems like defining a cultural system might work well this way.

Just a thought...

[Athos69]

Joseph:

One factor that I notice you included for the Dwarves, but not for Gnomes or Halflings in your calculations was the 20 foot base speed. That would bring down the values of halflings by about 7 by your calculations.

In addition, you need to weigh in on the other side of things the +1 to AC and +1 to hit medium sized creatures that halflings enjoy...

-Mike

[jaldaen]

Originally posted by Athos69
Joseph:

One factor that I notice you included for the Dwarves, but not for Gnomes or Halflings in your calculations was the 20 foot base speed. That would bring down the values of halflings by about 7 by your calculations.

In addition, you need to weigh in on the other side of things the +1 to AC and +1 to hit medium sized creatures that halflings enjoy...

-Mike

Actually I only included the 20 ft. base speed for dwarves b/c they are medium sized and normally medium-sized creatures have a base speed of 30...

As for size categories I assume that all sizes are balanced with each other... thus their is no need to take into account the benefits or drawbacks of size... I did this because it seems to be the direction that WotC has taken in concerns with Small to Large creatures... since each size category has benefits and drawbacks.

Do you think that the size categories are balanced?

Thanks,
Joseph

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69


Joseph:

One factor that I notice you included for the Dwarves, but not for Gnomes or Halflings in your calculations was the 20 foot base speed. That would bring down the values of halflings by about 7 by your calculations.

In addition, you need to weigh in on the other side of things the +1 to AC and +1 to hit medium sized creatures that halflings enjoy...

-Mike

Actually the +1 AC and +1 to hit are always in effect, they don't mean against any specific size creature. In other words a halfling gets a +1 to attack and a +1 AC even when fighting another halfling, the benefits just cancel each other out.