Draft 0.0 Army units

[ConjurerDragon]

Do I understand it right, that all military units are now "generic"?
In the sense that everyone can, with training, produce units with combat
statistics exactly like those of other races or nations? So that while dwarf
units have toughness even as green units, it counts against their maximum
number of trainings and as veterans they could be identical (excepting their
magical resistance bonus) to an Anuirean veteran unit?

Or are the racial trainings (elven-scout, dwarven-toughness) in addition to
the limited number of training due to experience a unit can have? So that
elves and dwarfs always would have one training more than human units at
every level of experience?


Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
Is somewhere explained what that means?
e.g. only Marines can fight on ships, all others are simply cargo?
only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?


p. 129 Naval Battle:
When ships are fighting I understand that they use their own combat
statistics, but when they carry troops, it becomes unclear:

e.g. 2 Galleons with 3 troops each
"These army units can make additional attacks to represent boarding actons."
Do I understand that right, that we have not 6 (number of units on board)
but 8 units fighting which all can attack every other unit?

Could the 3 units from Galleon 1 attack Galleon 2 under the feet of the
other 3 units? Or have boarding units to be defeated before the vessel can
be attacked at all in a melee as in "if the defending vessel has no military
unit then the boarding unit my attack the vessel itself" And the ships
themselves - can they attack also only the crew in a melee or the other ship
while the crew is still fighting?

Do missile troops add to the missile rating of ships, or is the ship missile
rating more heavy (ballista, catapult) so that archers can´t add to that?


"army units on the vessel may attempt to board the enemy vessel" - attempt
meaning that they can fail? Is there a check to board, e.g. an empty vessel
like that for entering a fortress?

"A staggered Warship with an army aboard surrenders and is taken prize" - an
army aboard is an hostile army to that ship that before boarded that ship,
right? Or can enemy ships taken prize who still have an army unit on them?


p. 112 Damage:
Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the
unit is destroyed.

Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt
subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious
and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing
the same?

As I read the Damage section, in a battle, e.g. a noble knight unit will not
slay their enemy who is honour bound to fight against all odds, but tries to
subdue them. Shall they only succeed to take them captive if they first
stagger them with subdual attacks and then hope for them to fail a morale
roll? Or can they keep dealing subdual attacks, beating them to the ground
until they all are unconscious and helpless to be tied up and taken prisoner?
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[spehar]

I'm not completely sure what you mean by generic, but any race can certainly mix and match your culture to produce units experience, armor, and special training. So if you want Rjurik archers with heavy armor and beserk you can do just that; I have no idea why you'd want to do that but you could.

Subdual damage is considered non-leathal according to the books, but in this case, non-heroed peasants, farmers, and even trained soliders are not being afforded the same luxury. There's to many deaths, to many men fleeing from the field, and to many unleveled men who are parrishing from the trials of combat.

"Seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat is defnied in the special notation under its description. A +2 at sea is a pretty nice.

(Note to my RP group: We need to test the new sea rules one night.)

If there are 2 navies and each has 1 ship and 3 units, that indeed is 8 attacks in a single resolution. After the 1st round the 3 units from ship A will be engaged with all units from ship B. There's no where to go on a boat but the bottom of the sea/river/ocean.

Any archer unit on a boat does not add to a ship's missile rating.

Mike Spehar

[doom]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 03:17:50AM -0800, Michael Romes wrote:
> Do I understand it right, that all military units are now "generic"?
> In the sense that everyone can, with training, produce units with combat
> statistics exactly like those of other races or nations? So that while dwarf
> units have toughness even as green units, it counts against their maximum
> number of trainings and as veterans they could be identical (excepting their
> magical resistance bonus) to an Anuirean veteran unit?

Perhaps in the same way that "characters" are generic. You could
_build_ a light armor wearing unit of anuirean infantry... but it
wouldn`t really be appropriate. As a GM, I`d probably disallow any
significant deviation from the "standard cultural units" without a good
rational or special training.

> Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
> Is somewhere explained what that means?

At the end of that same entry. "+2 to melee and defense at sea; move
freely through swamp terrain".

> e.g. only Marines can fight on ships, all others are simply cargo?

Any non-mounted unit can fight on ships, but units with the marine
training special get a BONUS at sea.

> only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
> penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?

Other units would not gain the "move freely though swamp terrain" bonus.
A coastal assault would probably occur in "swampy" conditions which might
be detrimental to some units. (See the swamp terrain).

> p. 129 Naval Battle:
> When ships are fighting I understand that they use their own combat
> statistics, but when they carry troops, it becomes unclear:
>
> e.g. 2 Galleons with 3 troops each
> "These army units can make additional attacks to represent boarding actons."
> Do I understand that right, that we have not 6 (number of units on board)
> but 8 units fighting which all can attack every other unit?


The ships attack each other (one attack each), the units attack each other (one
attack per unit). If one side`s units are destroyed, then the units can attack
the ship. "Boarding" to capture would be a "subdual" attack.

> Do missile troops add to the missile rating of ships, or is the ship missile
> rating more heavy (ballista, catapult) so that archers can´t add to that?

Hmm. I don`t think that we covered that. I`m thinking that missile
troops can`t fire at naval ranges, or do "significant" damage to a ship
at range, but they can use their missle attack in the first round of
combat of a ship-to-ship engagement against troops.

> "army units on the vessel may attempt to board the enemy vessel" - attempt
> meaning that they can fail? Is there a check to board, e.g. an empty vessel
> like that for entering a fortress?

Two vessels with army units abord do not _have_ to fight. If either side _wants_
to fight, however, then they do so.

> "A staggered Warship with an army aboard surrenders and is taken prize" - an
> army aboard is an hostile army to that ship that before boarded that ship,
> right? Or can enemy ships taken prize who still have an army unit on them?

The intent was that should read "an unopposed hostile army aboard".

> p. 112 Damage:
> Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the
> unit is destroyed.
>
> Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt
> subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious
> and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing
> the same?
> As I read the Damage section, in a battle, e.g. a noble knight unit will not
> slay their enemy who is honour bound to fight against all odds, but tries to
> subdue them. Shall they only succeed to take them captive if they first
> stagger them with subdual attacks and then hope for them to fail a morale
> roll? Or can they keep dealing subdual attacks, beating them to the ground
> until they all are unconscious and helpless to be tied up and taken prisoner?

There is definately a "revision-based" error in that text. Delete the line
"If a unit`s subdual damage exceeds its current htits the unit is destroyed"
on page 112. The preceeding sentence notes (correctly) that if the subdual
damage meets or exceeds the remaining hits that the unit is staggered.

The unit doesn`t become "helpless" unless it also fails a morale check. It
can`t attack, but it can attempt to flee unless morale breaks.

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Dr. Travis Doom wrote:

>On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 03:17:50AM -0800, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>Perhaps in the same way that "characters" are generic. You could
>_build_ a light armor wearing unit of anuirean infantry... but it
>wouldn`t really be appropriate. As a GM, I`d probably disallow any
>significant deviation from the "standard cultural units" without a good
>rational or special training.
>
My question is still only partly answered. e.g. Orogs always take
toughness training is writtten.
Can an Anuierean unit who also take toughness training ever have the
exact same statistics as an orog unit of the same type, or is the
toughness of the Orog a racial advantage which is in addition to the
"trained trainings"?

If the Orogs toughness counts against the limited number of trainings
(or the elven scout, or the dwarven advanse defense) then
do I understand it right, that:
- green units who may not have special training are exactly equal - be
they elf or dwar of human as all may not have any trainings? Or is the
Orog toughness a racial advantage which they have even at green level
where humans have nothing?
- and as they gain experience and take special trainings/ or are
mustered as more experienced units, they could stay exact copies of each
other, as the all have the same limited number of special trainings? Or
is the racial training in addition?

>>Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
>>Is somewhere explained what that means?
>>
>At the end of that same entry. "+2 to melee and defense at sea; move
> freely through swamp terrain".
>
Ooops. Overread that.

>>only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
>>penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?
>>
>Other units would not gain the "move freely though swamp terrain" bonus.
> A coastal assault would probably occur in "swampy" conditions which might
> be detrimental to some units. (See the swamp terrain).
>
"Marine units are seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore combat" So
that only means on land they move freely in bog.
Is this really relevant, unless Marines land in Spirtsend where most of
the province is swamp? To actually fight in a bog at the swamp their
leader would have to win an opposed warcraft check, as the province
defender likely won´t like to fight in swamp, right?

So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"
(raiding of Paris through the Vikings-like)
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
>
> So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
> bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"
> (raiding of Paris through the Vikings-like)
> bye
> Michael Romes
>

The problem here is the lack of operational surprise rules. Even within a
single province,there is very much room, and a sudden naval landing is
likely to be unopposed for a few days. For large armies and their supplies,
there is nothing like naval operations if you want tactical surprise.

/Carl


__________________________________________________ ___
Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
Busenkelt!

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[doom]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 10:47:08PM +0100, Michael Romes wrote:
> My question is still only partly answered. e.g. Orogs always take
> toughness training is writtten.
> Can an Anuierean unit who also take toughness training ever have the
> exact same statistics as an orog unit of the same type, or is the
> toughness of the Orog a racial advantage which is in addition to the
> "trained trainings"?

All units with the same training have exactly the same cost/advantages.
Some racial types _always_ take certain advantages (if if their "experience"
would otherwise disallow such training) to represent certain racial
sterotypes. However, an Anuirean HvInf+ with Toughness would be exactly
equivalent to an Orog HvInf+ with Toughness on the battle-level. The units
would have different numbers of individuals, etc, but their cost/utility
is the same. The fundemental goal here was not to provide any inherent
advantages/disadvantages to any race in warfare: you get what you pay for.

> "Marine units are seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore combat" So
> that only means on land they move freely in bog.

If a battle took place on a coastline, the DM might consider it "Swamp
terrain". If not, then the marines would have no advantage. Perhaps
this should be reworded to drop the ship-to-shore combat to prevent
confustion.

> To actually fight in a bog at the swamp their
> leader would have to win an opposed warcraft check, as the province
> defender likely won´t like to fight in swamp, right?

Correct. A general with marines would attempt to arrange the battle in
the swamp, whereas a general without might attempt to arrange the battle
on dry land.

> So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
> bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"

Right. (Although a "Shock Troop" special might not be a bad idea).

- Doom

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

p. 112 Damage:
Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the unit is destroyed.

Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing the same?
IMO Units with dealt subdual damage should get a "virtual hit". This would mean a hit in game purposes, but to the soldiers not lethal. So a with subdual damage destroyed unit should be "virtually destroyed" (Something like knocked out, but not dead)...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 7:52 AM


> p. 112 Damage:
> Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits,
> the unit is destroyed.
>
> IMO Units with dealt subdual damage should get a "virtual hit". This
> would mean a hit in game purposes, but to the soldiers not lethal. So
> a with subdual damage destroyed unit should be "virtually
> destroyed" (Something like knocked out, but not dead)...

I`ve always interpreted a destroyed unit as being what you describe as
"virtually destroyed". Actually killing every last man of a unit is pretty
hard. Normally units break and become worthless as combat forces long
before everyone gets killed. Units need to find themselves ganged up on
without possibility of retreat before they face actual destruction.

After a battle I take all the destroyed units and a I make morale checks.
Those that rally, reform in the rear area and eventually link up with the
army again. Those that fail, break apart and the survivors desert. A
leader who makes sure none of his units get isolated and cut off, and who
puts a powerful leader to rally units that break in the rear (clerics are
especially good at this) can generally hold his army together even in defeat
and fight again another day.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.