Chapter 2 - Blood Abilities

[irdeggman]

I haven't seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> I haven`t seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?
>
A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?

Then the description of the totem animal: The lion is pretty specific.
Serpent however is very general, not python, or viper, or cobra. Would
not it be better for Anduiras have the ability work on all large cats
(lions, tigers, puma, even wildcats and lynx) to have a sufficient
number of animals to use the ability on in every region of Aebrynnis? If
going strictly with lion only Khinasi might enjoy the benefit of talking
with a lion, or not?

Bloodmark: I find it good that this ability has got a real bonus (+1 to
CHA skills). The 2E "characters will react accordingly..." was very
vague and often ignored by other players as most roleplaying advantages
which are not hardwired in rules.
What has become of the sentence that Bloodmark is the minor version of
Divine Aura, I think it was in Dooms 3E manual?


Courage: The change in the great ability from "all units in the same
battlefield square" to now one units weakens the ability.
That now only 1 unit can be in 1 square should either be done away with
- or the great ability work on all friendly units in the square of the
scion and all surrounding squares.

A word about the 1 unit/1 square rule: The battlefield is with it´s 3X5
still as small as the 2E version. Large Battles e.g. between the main
armies of Boeruine and Avanil with only 1 unit/square could resemble a
minor skirmish with most of the army sitting idle in the reserve.

In addition the main advantage of Pikemen is to counter Cavalry.
However Cavalry would not be wise to attack Pikeman and instead pick on
other units (e.g. Archers or Infantery). A sound strategy would involve
Archers firing on the advancing enemy and if in danger of being overrun
by a charge, retreating behind a hedge of Pikes. This is not possible,
as the Pikes can´t anymore be in teh same square as the Archers and the
Archers can´t shoot over the Pikes. To have this strategy work, either
the old 2E rule of stacking (Archers will be defended by the Pikemen in
the same square as the defender chooses which unit engages with the
attacker) or a new rule of Archers shoot one area farther ( which also
has to have a larger battlefield) so that they can be positioned behind
a Pike unit.
bye
Michael Romes

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[DanMcSorley]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
> live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
> in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
> of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?

There are no lions in England or France, but Richard Coeur de Leon had his
nickname nonetheless. I imagine they had some in Aduria, and we know they
exist in Khinasi lands.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> I haven`t seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?
>
Elemental Control: A great ability only to summon a SMALL elemental once
per week? (summon Monster III) but changed the spell (Gust of Wind -->
Control Wind 5th level). Why not keep the old 3rd level spell Gust of
Wind as in the 2E version and instead use Monster Summon IV to at least
summon a medium Air Elemental for Anduiras scions?

And Masela: Water Walk has been kept like in 2E, a now 3rd level spell -
how is that balanced to the 5th level spell of Anduiras?
Would not better all have 3rd level spells/day and a medium elemental/week?

Same for Basaia, only a 3rd level spell . Reduce Anduiras also to a 3rd
level spell again.

A medium elemental would not be too overpowering, as they start with
damage reduction at Large Size, the medium has still none.


Long Live: A PC who has Long Life really has nothing - which game lasts
so much turns that it really is an advantage to outlive the other PC´s?
In the Book of Magecraft Highmage Aelies is described as patiently
building his source holdings while the human wizards around are
reckless. This is only a roleplaying advantage, but a new character with
Long Life has no advantage to use that I see which makes itself clearly
visible during the course of a normal game. Certainly the Gorgon has
taken advantage of his Long Life, becoming a nearly unbeatable character
in the course of his 1000 years, and Rhuobhe likewise. But if the
character starts with a normal human with other human players, then he
has nothing to show for this ability. Even IF the game lasts so long
that the PC with longlife can outlive the other characters - then they
will have used Investitture to designate a heir and he still have no
real advantage.

Suggestion: Add that the scion while gaining the advantages of age as
his lived (been on earth) age raises (+INT + WIS) he does not suffer
from the disadvantage (-DEX, - STR, - CON) as long as his aged age does
not go beyond the borderlines of age as well. e.g. a human who gained
Long Life major with the age of 20: After having lived 50 years he
normally would have gained and suffered the middle age and old modifiers
and venerable - with Long Life major he has gained the advantages, as he
really has lived 50 years, but he aged only 2 so does suffer no penaltys.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
>>live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
>>in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
>>of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?
>>
>
>There are no lions in England or France, but Richard Coeur de Leon had his
>nickname nonetheless. I imagine they had some in Aduria, and we know they
>exist in Khinasi lands.
>
Would then essentially the whole GREAT bloodability to talk to lions be
useless crap in Anurie if that is like England/France?
Which Anuirean scion with the Animal Affiinity Great ability would
travel to the Khinasi steppes or Adurian wastes to talk to a lion? I
suggest to broaden it to all great cats so that every region in Anuire
will have some animals to talk to.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

> A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
> live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
> in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
> of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?
>

Mountain lions lived in Turkey until quite recently, and in most of southern
Europe in antiquity. Legend has it that they were all killed in roman
gladiatorial games - though I`m not sure I beleive that.


__________________________________________________ ___
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[Ariadne]

Elemental control: To give them this ability I would change that to a minor ability. Summon monster III? Sweet...

My idea: Make it a minor ability (Summon monster III), a major ability (Summon monster V) and a great ability (Summon monster VII) once per week. (The gust of wind etc. ability part I would give at great version)...

Invulnerability, Regeneration: Why extra requirements? When rolling it, it will be not this often and if you may choose it (and you want it), everybody would take bloodtrait first...

Bloodmark, Protection from evil, Animal affinity: Good descriptions...

Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...

[irdeggman]

There were a handful of blood abilites that upon discussion were determined to be well above the normal level of great abillities; Divine Wrath, Invulnerability, Regeneration and Major Regeneration. These would be "must haves" and could easily make a campaign unbalanced if they were generally available, even with a random roll. That is why the prerequisites were placed on them. Blood form will cause the transformation to an awnsheghlien to happen quicker if one of these abilities is "used". Yeah, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what is meant by when they are used - but that is going to be pretty much up to the DM to "control" and "design" the transformation process anyway.

No matter how you cut it not all blood abilities of the same level are equal, just like not all feats are equal. We tried to balance them as best we could with this respect.

I think that I'd favor upping the elemental control to Monster Summoning V. This was an ability that has been discussed frequently on the boards as one of the reasons that the "old" system was not balanced, a scion with this ability could easily dominate any encounter. Do the the other granted spells, even though not of the same spell level really not end up being balanced (more or less) with each other? I mean just because a spell is not the same level doesn't mean that it is that much more powerful, Some are more frequently of use than others. Making this a minor, major and great ability would cause even more game imbalancing type problems.

The reason that lions were part of the animal affinity blood ability was for the aspects associated with a lion. It is important to keep this in mind instead of always thinking of in game mechanics. Yes this is a role playing type aspect, but all things related to totem animals in any setting are. It is an important aspect of defining character. It might be worthhile to allow communication with other great cats but the aspect must remain the lion. The great ability to wild shape would only be to a lion and not some other great cat. Yes serpents are much broader than others, but they are much more minor creatures than a lion in the MM. These aren't great creatures of this type but the standard versions.

Good point with the long life ability and gaining age enhancements. This is worth a longer look indeed.

Keep up the comments there is a lot of information in this chapter and it is an esssential part of Birthright.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> There were a handful of blood abilites that upon discussion were determined to be well above the normal level of great abillities; Divine Wrath, Invulnerability, Regeneration and Major Regeneration. These would be "must haves" and could easily make a campaign unbalanced if they were generally available, even with a random roll.
>
Why?
Divine Wrath is usable not by the will of the scion, but only if a set
condition is met of the DM. Michael Roele is mentioned to have used his
only 3 times in Iron Throne novel (first time when fighting gnolls who
already killed some of "his" men, fighting in the Shadow World when the
undead horrors where severely hurting his whole army, and the third time
as he died against the Gorgon). In a campaign concentrating on politics
and the domain level it is utterly useless.

This is a reason to make this ability usable on a broader basis, e.g. by
having it make Intimidate a class skill as well.


Invulnerabilty is even worse - you have to be defeated and "killed"
before it will benefit you!
This ability is however different than the 2E version in that it makes
you immune to polymorph as well - why?
I see this ability more like a "I´ll be back!" ability. Equally how
often you are defeated and even killed you come back - after a time. To
make the scion immune to death magic and immune to polymorph is too much
IMO - e.g. against "Slay living" it should only mean that you always
make a successful save - but not that you take no damage at all. Against
spells without alternative to simply die, the scion should still be
affected like from Slay living - perhaps paralyzed for a few rounds,
take a few points of damage instead of dying or such...

Regeneration and Major Regenration: Aren´t these abilites weaken than
the Regenration of the Troll from the MM as they are much slower?

However again: All of these abilities benefit only a character who takes
damage in a fight. Domain-Level action seldom does that and most PBEMS
concentrate on the domain level.

> That is why the prerequisites were placed on them. Blood form will cause the transformation to an awnsheghlien to happen quicker if one of these abilities is "used". Yeah, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what is meant by when they are used - but that is going to be pretty much up to the DM to "control" and "design" the transformation process anyway.
>No matter how you cut it not all blood abilities of the same level are equal, just like not all feats are equal. We tried to balance them as best we could with this respect.
>I think that I`d favor upping the elemental control to Monster Summoning V.
>
I agree. This would give a medium elemental who still has no damage
reduction. Not overbalancing. Perhaps make it also more versatile:
Simply say that the scion can use the Summon Monster V spell - not to
summon only 1 elemental, but either a medium elemental or as the spell
describes 2 small elementals. In addition, shouldn´t the scion be able
to speak Auran to talk with the elemental or give orders?

However I would balance this by having the scion suffer the penalty of
being such close to an element - e.g. the Tome&Blood has the "Elemental
Savant" Prestige Class - this class works closely with one element but
suffers from others: e.g for Air /Anduireas this could mean to be
hedged out by a magic circle agianst air, taking double damage from
Acid/Earth.... And this in all weeks in which the scion actually has
used his ability.

>The reason that lions were part of the animal affinity blood ability was for the aspects associated with a lion.
>
Courage, Strenght?

> It is important to keep this in mind instead of always thinking of in game mechanics. Yes this is a role playing type aspect, but all things related to totem animals in any setting are. It is an important aspect of defining character. It might be worthhile to allow communication with other great cats but the aspect must remain the lion. The great ability to wild shape would only be to a lion and not some other great cat.
>
> Yes serpents are much broader than others, but they are much more minor creatures than a lion in the MM. These aren`t great creatures of this type but the standard versions.
>
The MM has serpents as vipers and constrictors form tiny to Huge size,
what do you mean that they are minor creatures?

>Good point with the long life ability and gaining age enhancements. This is worth a longer look indeed.
>
:-)

bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

The reason invulnerability was written to include immunity to polymorph effects was that by using polymorph the invulnerabilty could be bypassed. We didn't want a polymorphed scion with invulnerability to "pick up" a weakness that could be fatal due to the polymorphing. The scion has only the "set" conditions that can kill him and no other ones. This addition may cause more confusion than it was worth though.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 8:26 PM


> irdeggman wrote:
> The reason invulnerability was written to include immunity to
> polymorph effects was that by using polymorph the invulnerabilty
> could be bypassed. We didn`t want a polymorphed scion with
> invulnerability to "pick up" a weakness that could be fatal due
> to the polymorphing. The scion has only the "set" conditions that
> can kill him and no other ones. This addition may cause more
> confusion than it was worth though.

You could just say that scions with the power of invulnerability cannot
aquire characteristics of their new form which would prove immediatly fatal.
Either they retain their normal abilties (such as the scion who is turned
into a fish, but continues to breath air) or instantly reverts to their
normal form if they recieve what would be a single death blow in their
altered form (attempting to squash the scion in mosquito form). Alternatly,
scions might be instantly teleported to some home location rather than
actually suffer the intended death.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 8:26 PM
>
>> irdeggman wrote:
>> The reason invulnerability was written to include immunity to
>>polymorph effects was that by using polymorph the invulnerabilty
>>could be bypassed. We didn`t want a polymorphed scion with
>>invulnerability to "pick up" a weakness that could be fatal due
>>to the polymorphing. The scion has only the "set" conditions that
>>can kill him and no other ones. This addition may cause more
>>confusion than it was worth though.
>>
>
>You could just say that scions with the power of invulnerability cannot
>aquire characteristics of their new form which would prove immediatly fatal.
>Either they retain their normal abilties (such as the scion who is turned
>into a fish, but continues to breath air) or instantly reverts to their
>normal form if they recieve what would be a single death blow in their
>altered form (attempting to squash the scion in mosquito form). Alternatly,
>scions might be instantly teleported to some home location rather than
>actually suffer the intended death.
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
I saw a film on TV a few years ago with a younger Sean Connery: Zardoz
(made up from the the last words from the title of the book "Wizard of
Oz"). In that film people in a certain small village with superiour
technology, far in the future had become immortal - they would not age,
except as punishment and if they died equally how, they just would be
reborn at a strange place. Not as a baby, but exactly as they had died,
at the same age, with the same memorys.

This kind of Immortality?
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 8:26 PM
>
>> irdeggman wrote:
>> The reason invulnerability was written to include immunity to
>>polymorph effects was that by using polymorph the invulnerabilty
>>could be bypassed. We didn`t want a polymorphed scion with
>>invulnerability to "pick up" a weakness that could be fatal due
>>to the polymorphing. The scion has only the "set" conditions that
>>can kill him and no other ones. This addition may cause more
>>confusion than it was worth though.
>>
>
>You could just say that scions with the power of invulnerability cannot
>aquire characteristics of their new form which would prove immediatly fatal.
>Either they retain their normal abilties (such as the scion who is turned
>into a fish, but continues to breath air) or instantly reverts to their
>normal form if they recieve what would be a single death blow in their
>altered form (attempting to squash the scion in mosquito form). Alternatly,
>scions might be instantly teleported to some home location rather than
>actually suffer the intended death.
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
I saw a film on TV a few years ago with a younger Sean Connery: Zardoz
(made up from the the last words from the title of the book "Wizard of
Oz"). In that film people in a certain small village with superiour
technology, far in the future had become immortal - they would not age,
except as punishment and if they died equally how, they just would be
reborn at a strange place. Not as a baby, but exactly as they had died,
at the same age, with the same memorys.

This kind of Immortality?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Yair]

Regarding the bloodtrait and bloodform blood abilities - they are too vague as presented in the player's section, and I believe more discussion and thought are needed on their presentation in the monster's section (they seem a little rough). I for one would definitely need more guidelines if I am to create a deformed scion of Azrai that has any relation to the bloodform trait (as it is, I'll just wing it).

Perhaps more importantly, a general note - it helps if you put a "behind the screen" section explaining our design decisions. Especially decisions that have to do with game balance. It retrospect, it seems obvious that a "prereq chain" implies the top-abilities are more powerful, but at first sight I didn't see it, and a behind the screen section would have helped.
As bloodtrait and bloodform are also probably the most DM-controlled and most complicated of the blood abilities, does it make sense to put them at the begining of the chain? Wouldn't a less-complicated and less useful (aka not world shattering) power be better suited for this role? If bloodmark doesn't work for you, perhaps a greater version of it? (personally, I see bloodmark as pretty much useless (if not crippling) by itself, and hence a good candidtate for a prereq.)

[Shade]

>Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...
>

?? I thought in 2nd edition Battlewise was by far the most powerful blood
ability, correct me if I`m missing something...

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yair" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 3:35 PM

> Personally, I see bloodmark as pretty much useless (if not crippling) by
> itself, and hence a good candidtate for a prereq.

I`m curious. Why is bloodmark crippling?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>>Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...
>>
>
>?? I thought in 2nd edition Battlewise was by far the most powerful blood
>ability, correct me if I`m missing something...
>
That totally depends on how often you go into a battle with an army.
If you prefer to be the single adventurer, or the leader of a small
party adventuring in dungeon, or enjoy social interaction...
Then Battlewise is useless ;-)

If however you are the Archduke of Boeruine and want to be the next
emperor, then having such a bonus to your armys in the field is a great
bonus...
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Yair" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 3:35 PM
>
>>Personally, I see bloodmark as pretty much useless (if not crippling) by
>>itself, and hence a good candidtate for a prereq.
>>
>I`m curious. Why is bloodmark crippling?
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
Because PC´s tend to ignore the Bloodmarks of other players to do what
they want to do.
I don´t know many players, who would get exalted to meet someone with
"extremely red hair" or "steel-gray eyes" and suddenly drop their plans
and become much more friendly... ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Shade

>Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...

?? I thought in 2nd edition Battlewise was by far the most powerful blood ability, correct me if I`m missing something...
If you don't focus on battles the whole play (in adventuring for example), it's realy a waste of a good maybe ability...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:37 AM

> Because PC´s tend to ignore the Bloodmarks of other players to
> do what they want to do. I don´t know many players, who would
> get exalted to meet someone with "extremely red hair" or "steel-gray
> eyes" and suddenly drop their plans and become much more
> friendly... ;-)

That`s an explanation for why Bloodmarks are useless, but those characters
with the red hair or the gray eyes aren`t crippled.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
>Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:37 AM
>
>>Because PC´s tend to ignore the Bloodmarks of other players to
>>do what they want to do. I don´t know many players, who would
>>get exalted to meet someone with "extremely red hair" or "steel-gray
>>eyes" and suddenly drop their plans and become much more
>>friendly... ;-)
>>
>That`s an explanation for why Bloodmarks are useless, but those characters
>with the red hair or the gray eyes aren`t crippled.
>
I assume the writer who stated that they are crippled felt that a
character having Bloodmark is at an disadvantage
compared to anohter character with an bloodability which is actually of
use in the game - not quite crippled, but
not balanced either.
bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

Re; bloodmark, that is why the mechanical benefit is a +1 to charisma based skills. No matter how you cut it PCs are always immune to action influencing effects, that aren't charms that require saving throws. Always has been and pretty much always will be. Something about free will of the players to decide how their characters will react to circumstances.

While not as useful as other minor blood abilities, again not all feats are equal either. How many people think that the toughness or endurance feats are all that usefull as compared to say alertness or power attack? OK toughness can be useful if the character in question is a first level wizard with only 4 hitpoints, but overall it is pretty lame for a feat.

Again, the blood ability may not be as useful as others but it is not crippling.

[Shade]

At 05:26 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>>Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...
>>>
>>
>>?? I thought in 2nd edition Battlewise was by far the most powerful blood
>>ability, correct me if I`m missing something...
>>
>That totally depends on how often you go into a battle with an army.
>If you prefer to be the single adventurer, or the leader of a small
>party adventuring in dungeon, or enjoy social interaction...
>Then Battlewise is useless ;-)
>
>If however you are the Archduke of Boeruine and want to be the next
>emperor, then having such a bonus to your armys in the field is a great
>bonus...
>bye

Yeah, I always thought that was the great equalizer between Avanil and
Boeruine. On paper Avanil looks so much stronger (bigger army, more
vassals, better vassals, more money, more tribute, more territory, more
holdings, bigger bloodline, next to the City of Anuire, few serious enemies
nearby, etc) but Aeric Boeruine has battlewise. That alone in my mind was
enough to match Avan`s advantages.

Imagine if Ghoere had battlewise... gg thx for playing Roesone and Mhoried!

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[Shade]

I generally considered Bloodmark to be the most minor of blood abilities,
and for a while let PCs take the ability for free if they wanted it.

I changed my mind when I realized that the +4 to reactions is definitely
valuable. The downside, of course, is that you have big problems trying to
disguise yourself (important for a thief or mage).

At 05:37 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Yair" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 3:35 PM
>>
>>>Personally, I see bloodmark as pretty much useless (if not crippling) by
>>>itself, and hence a good candidtate for a prereq.
>>>
>>I`m curious. Why is bloodmark crippling?
>>Kenneth Gauck
>>kgauck@mchsi.com
>>
>Because PC´s tend to ignore the Bloodmarks of other players to do what
>they want to do.
>I don´t know many players, who would get exalted to meet someone with
>"extremely red hair" or "steel-gray eyes" and suddenly drop their plans
>and become much more friendly... ;-)
>bye
>Michael Romes
>
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[Shade]

> irdeggman wrote:
> Re; bloodmark, that is why the mechanical benefit is a +1 to charisma
based skills. No matter how you cut it PCs are always immune to action
influencing effects, that aren`t charms that require saving throws. Always
has been and pretty much always will be. Something about free will of the
players to decide how their characters will react to circumstances.
>
>While not as useful as other minor blood abilities, again not all feats
are equal either. How many people think that the toughness or endurance
feats are all that usefull as compared to say alertness or power attack?
OK toughness can be useful if the character in question is a first level
wizard with only 4 hitpoints, but overall it is pretty lame for a feat.

actually alertness is crap too ;)
Better to use something like, say, Improved Critical to make your point :)

But I get your point, and I agree.

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[irdeggman]

I don't know, I've used Alertness quite frequently (+2 to Spot and Listen checks comes up quite frequently), almost as often as Improved Initiative.

[Shade]

At 04:20 AM 2/18/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> I don`t know, I`ve used Alertness quite frequently (+2 to Spot and
Listen checks comes up quite frequently), almost as often as Improved
Initiative.

Hmm, I could be wrong then :)

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>At 05:26 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Lord Shade wrote:
>>
>>...
>>If however you are the Archduke of Boeruine and want to be the next
>>emperor, then having such a bonus to your armys in the field is a great
>>bonus...
>>
>Yeah, I always thought that was the great equalizer between Avanil and
>Boeruine. On paper Avanil looks so much stronger (bigger army, more
>vassals, better vassals, more money, more tribute, more territory, more
>holdings, bigger bloodline, next to the City of Anuire, few serious enemies
>nearby, etc) but Aeric Boeruine has battlewise. That alone in my mind was
>enough to match Avan`s advantages.
>Imagine if Ghoere had battlewise... gg thx for playing Roesone and Mhoried!
>
Imagine if Ghoere could use the realmspell "Maintain Armies" to cheaply
maintain HUGE numbers of military units - in 3E every damn cleric can
cast it, while in 2E only priests of Avani could cast it... ::-( (And
clerics must be karthago! (ähm be specialists!)

Better Vassals? ;-)
Taeghas and Brosengae were on Boeruines side during Michale Roeles
ascension to the throne - they can change again sides. And as both are
constantly on the brink of civil war Avan can be kept busy by this alone
(if he has only Magician lieutenants and not good diplomats to send...)

Mieres could be cut off at any time the seadrake wishes and the governor
does not seem overly trustworthy. Something interesting that was brought
up in COG II: The temples of Eloele in Mieres (a vassal of Avan) could
easily be used to discredit Avan as next emperor - after all the Emperor
is the protector of Anuire, of which Haelyn is patron! And AVAN allows
the temples of the goddess of thiefs prosper in his vassals lands? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>I generally considered Bloodmark to be the most minor of blood abilities,
>and for a while let PCs take the ability for free if they wanted it.
>
>I changed my mind when I realized that the +4 to reactions is definitely
>valuable. The downside, of course, is that you have big problems trying to
>disguise yourself (important for a thief or mage).
>
Mage: "fifth level spell from 2E Book of Magecraft: disguise bloodline:
hids all magical and also physical (as appearance) aspects of a bloodline.

And a simple shave will hide the "Very red beard", a cheap cloak or wig
conceal the bright white hair...
No problem for imaginative mages and thiefs.
bye
Michael Romes

>At 05:37 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Yair" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>>>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 3:35 PM
>>>
>>>>Personally, I see bloodmark as pretty much useless (if not crippling) by
>>>>itself, and hence a good candidtate for a prereq.
>>>>
>>>I`m curious. Why is bloodmark crippling?
>>>Kenneth Gauck
>>>kgauck@mchsi.com
>>>
>>Because PC´s tend to ignore the Bloodmarks of other players to do what
>>they want to do.
>>I don´t know many players, who would get exalted to meet someone with
>>"extremely red hair" or "steel-gray eyes" and suddenly drop their plans
>>and become much more friendly... ;-)
>>bye
>>Michael Romes
>>
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>
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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Yair


Perhaps more importantly, a general note - it helps if you put a "behind the screen" section explaining our design decisions. Especially decisions that have to do with game balance. It retrospect, it seems obvious that a "prereq chain" implies the top-abilities are more powerful, but at first sight I didn't see it, and a behind the screen section would have helped.

Including such a section was actually discussed during the development but was dismissed as not really providing a good bang for the buck. None of the core rules really includes such a section, that is mostly left up to sage advice. It was basically decided that it would be best to answer specific questions rather that to include information that may not be very useful to people, i.e., we could have providing lengthy explanations of things that people didn't really have any questions on. I had actually prepared some FAQs that I thought would be useful, but really only one has come up so far - the reason for ECLs and scion templates. So why much up a process answering questiones that aren't being asked?:)

[kgauck]

Arguing that Bloodmark is irrelevant is like arguing that Arthur pulling the
sword from the stone was a meaningless act. Or that if a wife`s wedding
ring is replaced by some other ring of equal value, she won`t demand the
original back.

The bloodmark is a visible manifestation of the mystical bond between a
ruler and his realm and a ruler and his people. In a society that takes a
birthright as a serious thing, that`s about all you need to demonstrate your
legitimacy. William Moergan will be a perpetual problem to Jaison Raenech
because he can show up, display his bloodmark and be hailed as the true and
righful duke.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Shade]

>Better Vassals? ;-)
>Taeghas and Brosengae were on Boeruines side during Michale Roeles
>ascension to the throne - they can change again sides. And as both are
>constantly on the brink of civil war Avan can be kept busy by this alone
>(if he has only Magician lieutenants and not good diplomats to send...)

I think Avanil has better vassals. Let`s look at it this way:

Avanil Boeruine
------ --------
Taeghas = Talinie
PAI = Arien Borthein
WIT > NIT
Harald Khor = Arlen Innis
Mieres/AV
Brosengae/EM

As written Talinie and Taeghas are both pretty reliable and comparable in
size. Arlen Innis is higher level, but Harald Khorien has more
sources/bloodline and therefore more RP, so I count them as pretty much
equal. AB and PAI both kind of suck, as their bloodlines are small. WIT is
an awesomely powerful domain on its own (huge holdings and income,
4th-largest non-awnshegh bloodline in all of Anuire) and seems to be
extremely reliable, and clearly superior to NIT. On top of this advantage,
Avan has 2 unreliable vassals, Brosengae and Mieres, that at least for the
time being provide him with tribute and therefore a bigger advantage over
Boeruine.

As for the Magician lieutenant issue, you are responding to a different
thread and I`ll rebut your point there.

>Mieres could be cut off at any time the seadrake wishes and the governor
>does not seem overly trustworthy. Something interesting that was brought
>up in COG II: The temples of Eloele in Mieres (a vassal of Avan) could
>easily be used to discredit Avan as next emperor - after all the Emperor
>is the protector of Anuire, of which Haelyn is patron! And AVAN allows
>the temples of the goddess of thiefs prosper in his vassals lands? ;-)

You could make that point, but I doubt that who becomes the next Emperor of
Anuire is going to be decided by who has a vassal with a temple of Eloele
in his lands.

Besides, in many places in the books, the designers imply that there are
unwanted holdings in several realms, and the rulers have tried to get rid
of them and can`t. Just because a holding exists in a particular place
doesn`t mean a regent wants it there or is actively supporting it.

In PBeMs, IMHO DMs never do a good job of portraying the real consequences
of invading your own provinces and burning down holdings. I would think
such a horrible action would result in complete hatred from the populace,
if you burn down temples that they have been attending for years, or guilds
that employed them and all their neighbors. If such an action was really as
easy as PBeMs make it, no landed regent would ever have an unwanted holding
in his realm for longer than 1 or 2 seasons. Why then do the published
realms have unwanted holdings in almost every other domain?

Case in point - do you think that because the Brotherhood of Khet or the
Society of the Serpent exist in a number of Khinasi kingdoms, the rulers
want them there or intentionally permit their existence? How about the
White Hand of Kriestal in Danigau, or the Mhor`s law holdings in Ghoere or
Gavin Tael`s holdings in Mhoried? Or the bandit guild in Berhagen? Or
Kalien`s holdings in Alamie and Medoere? There are many more examples.

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[Shade]

At 05:51 PM 2/18/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>I generally considered Bloodmark to be the most minor of blood abilities,
>>and for a while let PCs take the ability for free if they wanted it.
>>
>>I changed my mind when I realized that the +4 to reactions is definitely
>>valuable. The downside, of course, is that you have big problems trying to
>>disguise yourself (important for a thief or mage).
>>
>Mage: "fifth level spell from 2E Book of Magecraft: disguise bloodline:
>hids all magical and also physical (as appearance) aspects of a bloodline.
>
>And a simple shave will hide the "Very red beard", a cheap cloak or wig
>conceal the bright white hair...
>No problem for imaginative mages and thiefs.
>bye
>Michael Romes

That`s true in some cases.

I wouldn`t think that the Disguise bloodline spell would be a viable option
for the vast majority of characters with bloodmarks (you have to be a 9th+
level mage to cast it, and how many of those are there in BR? 20-30?)

For instance, Port of Call Exchange player in my game had six fingers on
his left hand as his bloodmark. That`s pretty easy to hide. On the other
hand, what if you had an ugly-looking purple blob on your face like Darien
Avan? How are you going to hide that without going around looking like a
leper or an evil necromancer? Are you going to keep your great helm on 24-7
(and as a result be almost completely blind and deaf)?

If you are a Khinasi woman, you might be able to get away with veils, but
otherwise...

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[Shade]

At 04:06 PM 2/18/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Arguing that Bloodmark is irrelevant is like arguing that Arthur pulling the
>sword from the stone was a meaningless act. Or that if a wife`s wedding
>ring is replaced by some other ring of equal value, she won`t demand the
>original back.
>
>The bloodmark is a visible manifestation of the mystical bond between a
>ruler and his realm and a ruler and his people. In a society that takes a
>birthright as a serious thing, that`s about all you need to demonstrate your
>legitimacy. William Moergan will be a perpetual problem to Jaison Raenech
>because he can show up, display his bloodmark and be hailed as the true and
>righful duke.

An excellent point. Bloodmark is definitely NOT useless from a roleplaying
perspective.

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[geeman]

At 11:16 PM 2/18/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>
Originally posted by Yair
>It retrospect, it seems obvious that a "prereq chain" implies the
>top-abilities are more powerful, but at first sight I didn`t see it, and
>a behind the screen section would have helped.
>
>Including such a section was actually discussed during the development but
>was dismissed as not really providing a good bang for the
>buck. [Snip] So why much up a process answering questiones that aren`t
>being asked?:)

It could preempt a little email banter.... I do agree, though, that a
"behind the screen" discussion would probably be too much to have in the
actual text. What about putting up some of that stuff on a web page
someplace as a sort of FAQ-like thing?

Gary

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[Yair]

I never intended to say bloodmark wasn't a good minor ability, or that it was useless in the game. Indeed, I consider it very important to the setting and I can imagine many plots where it is crucial to the adventure (perhaps more so than any other blood ability). However, it is relatively weak rule-wise which make it an ideal candidate to serve as a prereq feat. Bloodtrait, on the other hand, seems to me to be such a useful thing that almost anyone would want it (if his DM is reasonable), so it makes a poor prereq as part of the idea of prereqs is to increase the cost of things such as Invulnerability.
That is all I meant to say.
As for the "crippling": in certain circumstances, having a bloodmark is a giveaway. It thus prevents, or makes harder, certain things (as you all have been saying). It is possible to overcome these difficulties, of course, but it is crippling in the sense that it hinders your actions. Not debilitating, but crippling - yes, I believe. I have yet to play a Birthright campaign (just starting my first), but in some plots in the party's future (as I now see it) having a bloodmark will be a disadvantage more than an advantage.

As for the behind the curtain thing - you are right, it is overkill. An on-line FAQ or something like that would be preferable.

[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>>Better Vassals? ;-)
>>Taeghas and Brosengae were on Boeruines side during Michale Roeles
>>ascension to the throne - they can change again sides. And as both are
>>constantly on the brink of civil war Avan can be kept busy by this alone
>>(if he has only Magician lieutenants and not good diplomats to send...)
>>
>I think Avanil has better vassals. Let`s look at it this way:
>
>Avanil Boeruine
>------ --------
>Taeghas = Talinie
>PAI = Arien Borthein
>WIT > NIT
>Harald Khor = Arlen Innis
>Mieres/AV
>Brosengae/EM
>As written Talinie and Taeghas are both pretty reliable and comparable in
>size. Arlen Innis is higher level, but Harald Khorien has more
>sources/bloodline and therefore more RP, so I count them as pretty much
>equal. AB and PAI both kind of suck, as their bloodlines are small. WIT is
>an awesomely powerful domain on its own (huge holdings and income,
>4th-largest non-awnshegh bloodline in all of Anuire) and seems to be
>extremely reliable, and clearly superior to NIT. On top of this advantage,
>Avan has 2 unreliable vassals, Brosengae and Mieres, that at least for the
>time being provide him with tribute and therefore a
> bigger advantage over
>Boeruine.
>
When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
Wasn´t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?


>As for the Magician lieutenant issue, you are responding to a different
>thread and I`ll rebut your point there.
>
>>Mieres could be cut off at any time the seadrake wishes and the governor
>>does not seem overly trustworthy. Something interesting that was brought
>>up in COG II: The temples of Eloele in Mieres (a vassal of Avan) could
>>easily be used to discredit Avan as next emperor - after all the Emperor
>>is the protector of Anuire, of which Haelyn is patron! And AVAN allows
>>the temples of the goddess of thiefs prosper in his vassals lands? ;-)
>>
>You could make that point, but I doubt that who becomes the next Emperor of
>Anuire is going to be decided by who has a vassal with a temple of Eloele
>in his lands.
>Besides, in many places in the books, the designers imply that there are
>unwanted holdings in several realms, and the rulers have tried to get rid
>of them and can`t. Just because a holding exists in a particular place
>doesn`t mean a regent wants it there or is actively supporting it.
>In PBeMs, IMHO DMs never do a good job of portraying the real consequences
>of invading your own provinces and burning down holdings. I would think
>such a horrible action would result in complete hatred from the populace,
>if you burn down temples that they have been attending for years, or guilds
>that employed them and all their neighbors. If such an action was really as
>easy as PBeMs make it, no landed regent would ever have an unwanted holding
>in his realm for longer
>than 1 or 2 seasons. Why then do the published
>realms have unwanted holdings in almost every other domain?
>
Because the rules do not prevent it and occupation and
destruction/divestion is easier than several contests.

>Case in point - do you think that because the Brotherhood of Khet or the
>Society of the Serpent exist in a number of Khinasi kingdoms, the rulers
>want them there or intentionally permit their existence? How about the
>White Hand of Kriestal in Danigau, or the Mhor`s law holdings in Ghoere or
>Gavin Tael`s holdings in Mhoried? Or the bandit guild in Berhagen? Or
>Kalien`s holdings in Alamie and Medoere? There are many more examples.
>
I understand your point. Some Rjurik realms have to add to your list
guild holdings of the White Witch, about which they are not even
informed - while the holdings are in their own lands. That is impossible
in a PBEM unless the DM is super-human and devious...

However even the presence of such holdings could be used by Avan´s
opponents to show that he has done nothing/not enough to get rid of
them. Eloele is after all an enemy of Haelyn - even Rhobher Nicholair as
a firm supporter of Avan would have a hard time arguing to do nothing
against that temples. Not to act or not to succeed could be pointed out
as a failure - of a person who wants to rule a whole empire, and can´t
even bring law and order to his own vassals lands? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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