Level dependant Blood abilties

[oximoron]

There are powerful Blood abilities out there, some of them are quite useful in many situations, others are overpowering and yet others are next to worthless, it all depends on the situation the scion is in at any given moment. lets for example take an adventuring based campeign (as opposed to political) and a mighty 15th level fighter scion who has the Blood ability Major Resistance: Non-magical attacks at either major or great Deriviation. now this ability grants you as you should be familiar with Damage Reduction either (major) 3/+1 or (great) 5/+1. Most opponents that the Scion is encountering at that level (since he is probably traveling with charecter at ECL 16/17) either have damage reduction that enables them to easily bypass this damage reduction or they are armed with weapons that enable them to bypass this ability rather easily.


The great blood ability would be alot more useful and understandable if it were something like what I suggest is that the Damage reduction increases as the charecter does in level great Resistance for example might gain one point of damage reduction per level(ECL/level?) also that the plus of the magical weapon required to injure the scion might increase as well at every five levels or in the case of the fighter scion above he would have Damage reduction 15/+3

The Major blood ability would then be something like this 1point of damage reduction per 2 levels and the plus of the weapon requered to injure the scion might increase every 7 levels (in both cases rounded down)
or incase of the fighter above he would have damage reduction 7/+2

also to make sure that they are not completly useless for a first level scion there should be bare minimum of the damage reductions as they are or in case of (major) this should be DR 3/+1 and for great this should be 6/+1

there are more abilities out there that could use revisement on this count, for example animal affinity(great) grants the scion the ability to change into Totem animal once per day(this should change to be once every 5 levels of the scion)

Blood abilities should be useful at all levels, not the just the lowest or the highest, feel free to tune down some abilites and then gradually increase the power level of them, some blood abilites are equally useful at all levels for example Long Life ability and should not be changed

[oximoron]

Recently I recieved a reply regarding my posting, sorry if I copy paste it but there are accidently two posting and this one is the complete one


kgauck Re: Level dependant Blood abilities was posted on: 02-18-03 07:13:09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood abilities should be considered on the basis of their being used for
their intended purpose. Battlewise is intended to be used for a battle
commander. A character who gets this power but whose player doesn`t want to
play that kind of character isn`t an argument that Battlewise is a bad blood
power, just that random assignment of such powers is a bad system. It helps
when assignment of blood powers preceeds class selection and development of
a character concept, but that only helps if the player doesn`t come to the
table with an existing concept idea.

In the BRCS, blood and regency is chapter 2. By the time you get to that,
you`ve already selected race, class, skills, and feats. As a character
might be imagined to develop, most skills and feats and even class selection
can be presumed to occur after the character has begun to manifest their
blood abilities. For this reason, I always do blood abilities first, and I
don`t force players to accept abilities at variance with their intended
character concept (when they bring one to the table). Players who come to
the table with no set ideas appreciate setting down some fixed abilities
first and then deciding where to go from there.

That way, characters don`t end up with blood abilities that they (because of
their intended role play) don`t regard abilities like Battlewise as useless.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[oximoron]

I would like to thank you for your reply, but I must question if you actually read what I said, I was not talking about useless blood abilities, I just thought that some of them could be improved for their intended usage by making them level dependant, also it is a great balancing point for weaker and stronger abilites

Like I said a 15th level scion fighter has very little to do with either major or great version of Major resistance to nonmagical attacks, by making it level dependant and improving it like I said in my article I think that an ability like that could be intresting it makes it not overpowering at first level yet useful at the later levels

I hope that some of my suggestions lead to a better Birthright couse there is always place for improvements

Yours sincerly
Oximoron El Grande

[irdeggman]

Re: damage reduction - I propose tabling any really specific modifications on this part until after 3.5 comes out. It is promised as having a relatively complete revision of thedamage reduction system and IMO we should revisit this effect once we have the revised rules to make a comparision.

While the player doesn't choose his blood abilities until after his race, class, etc. are chosen - if done in the order presented. Note that this is not included as a required order for character preparation, although it definitely can be implied by the order the chapters are written, even though one must go to go a later chapter to determine which domains to use in order to build a cleric. In fact the blood ability score must be rolled at the same time as the character's other ability scores so there is no real reason that the process can't be in parallel. I personnaly would favor a character to choose his blood abilities after his basic character concept is set. This doesn't work very well if the variant to randomly roll the blood abilities is used though - IMO it would be more useful for the player's to allow the blood abilities to be rolled "first" before selecting race or class. Either way works per the BRCS as currently written and both methods have their advantages and disadvantages.

:)

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> Re: damage reduction - I propose tabling any really specific
> modifications on this part until after 3.5 comes out. It is promised
> as having a relatively complete revision of thedamage reduction system
> and IMO we should revisit this effect once we have the revised rules
> to make a comparision.

Speaking of which, `half damage from X` is being replaced by DR; for
example, skeletons will, I understand, have `DR 5/Blunt`. So something
similar should be put together for BR dwarves. I`d say either DR
5/pointy things or DR Con bonus/pointy things.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[irdeggman]

The application of the "new" DR rules to dwarves will definitely be visited when the3.5 comes out, as will most everything that they could apply to.

Something similar was discussed during the development, but the fact that a dwarf could then avoid "all" damage from say a club seemed to be a bit on the extreme side. The present version has the dwarf always receiving at least 1 point of damage if hit. Damage is never rounded to 0, unless it is the result of DR which eliminates the first amount of damage.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "oximoron" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:48 AM

> I would like to thank you for your reply, but I must question if you
> actually read what I said

I wasn`t replying to your post, but to the whole thread. These were some
reflections on the whole deal - a statement of my take on the situation.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[oximoron]

Thank you again for your reply kgauck

I went and read your original reply to the thread and it was as if I was reading it for the first time (must have been to tired or something the first time) and relised that you were talking about something completly diffrent from me. How charecter concepts must come first before abilities influence such creations. In other words to stop metagame thinking and do some roleplay. But that wasnt what I was talking about. There are some aspect of BTCS that are still defined from 2e standards and havn´t been properly converted to 3e. I was trying to make improvements on an already excellent game. And I really felt that what I was doing would really make some good effects. I dont belive that the blood abilites given in BRCS are useless. But there are ways in some occasions that their intended usage could be improved.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1361
>irdeggman wrote:
>While the player doesn`t choose his blood abilities until after his race, class, etc. are chosen - if done in the order presented. Note that this is not included as a required order for character preparation, although it definitely can be implied by the order the chapters are written, even though one must go to go a later chapter to determine which domains to use in order to build a cleric. In fact the blood ability score must be rolled at the same time as the character`s other ability scores so there is no real reason that the process can`t be in parallel. I personnaly would favor a character to choose his blood abilities after his basic character concept is set. This doesn`t work very well if the variant to randomly roll the blood abilities is used though - IMO it would be more useful for the player`s to allow the blood abilities to be rolled "first" before selecting race or class. Either way works per the BRCS as currently written and both methods have their advan
> tages and disadvantages.
>:)
>
And yet another point of view: Bloodabilites could develop during the
life of the character, according to his actions, or spontaneously - just
as described in Iron Throne where Michael Roele did not have all his
abilites at once, but gained them one after one.

So the player and DM can e.g. after a great heroic adventure or after
some extraordinary sucees or cruel murder or raising of the bloodline
strenght add an ability within the maximum the character may have,
without any randomness.
bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

And yet another point of view: Bloodabilites could develop during the
life of the character, according to his actions, or spontaneously - just
as described in Iron Throne where Michael Roele did not have all his
abilites at once, but gained them one after one.

So the player and DM can e.g. after a great heroic adventure or after
some extraordinary sucees or cruel murder or raising of the bloodline
strenght add an ability within the maximum the character may have,
without any randomness.
bye
Michael Romes


Absolutely and it would be wrong, at least IMO, to place a rule mechanic that would limit the DM from doing exactly this. Also, the Great Heritage template is another award that can be "granted" by the DM for sustained or truly heroic (as in epic type proportions)actions. Leadership score awards are something that also should be handled by DMs, I think this is something that most people haven't gotten a firm hand on yet. It was after all "hidden" in the DMG vice the PHB.:)

[Birthright-L]

One way to play blood abilities that I`ve been thinking off is that the
manifestation of blood abilities is a gradual process, dependent on both
bloodline strength and character level. Say that the maximum bloodline
strength (using the old system) for which you can manifest bllodline ability
is 5 * your level. This would mean that the bloodline ability of two 4th
level characters, one with a blloodline of 20 and another with a bloodline
of 80, would be thesame. And it takes a grand total of 20 levels (or
whatever you set the divisor to) in order to manifest all your bloodline
abilities.

This would be a major balancing factor. After all, most bloodline abilities
are very powerful at low levels, when the characters have few abilities and
magic items are few and far between. At high levels, the bloodline abilities
are much less disruptive, because characters at these levels are so
impressive anyway. It could also be fun to play out and select new blood
abilities as you advance in level.

I think such a system could let us do away with the ECL modifiers fro blood
abilities - my single greatest gripe with the new conversion manual.

/Carl


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[irdeggman]

How about the other factors that contribute to the ECL modifiers; bonus hit points and starting magic items? In order to do away with the ECL modifiers should we also drop those benefits?

And would not a DM still have to create a "virtual" ECL to calculate appropriate ELs?

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by irdeggman

How about the other factors that contribute to the ECL modifiers; bonus hit points and starting magic items? In order to do away with the ECL modifiers should we also drop those benefits?

And would not a DM still have to create a "virtual" ECL to calculate appropriate ELs?
Some DM's don't allow starting magical items ("earn them, you will get enough, if you're high level") and don't start as regents (so no bonus hit points). These PC's shouldn't get an ECL, may be a "virtual" ECL, if they are high level isn't bad. But: As a high level PC you have still no "bonus magical item", you got what you got over the time (and having none will reduce a CR)...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:29 AM

> How about the other factors that contribute to the ECL modifiers;
> bonus hit points and starting magic items? In order to do away with
> the ECL modifiers should we also drop those benefits?

I`ve never used the bonus hit points, so I can`t speak to that, except to
say I wouldn`t miss it if it disappeared. As for the bonus magic item, if
these guys are aristocrats (not the D&D class) then they have access to
wealth, including family heirlooms, one of which might well be a magic item.
Even if you don`t allow it at game start, its hard to keep family magic
items from ever ending up in the hands of PC`s. Its even harder to suggest
that the ruler of a realm has no access either to magic creation or magic
items associated with the office.

These are the magic items I gave out when PC`s were created:
shirt of warmth (functions as ring of the same name)
ring of swimming
orb of light (functions as wand, including trigger)
masterwork sword with a bead of blessing on the pommel (see Neckless of
Prayer Beads)
5 potions, three of Cure Light Wounds, one Aid, and one Lessor Restoration.
+1 chain shirt
cup of "shield of faith" drink from the cup, activate shield of faith around
drinker

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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