2e Bloodlines in 3e Style.

[geeman]

At 11:24 AM 2/22/2003 -0600, Lord Shade wrote in the "Re: [BIRTHRIGHT]
Draft 0.0 Birthright skills and feats" thread:

>I strongly agree with Michael, IN PRINCIPLE. I hate the fact that you have
>to be weaker than a normal adventurer in order to be a better regent. 2e
>Birthright did not have that tradeoff, and "hero-king" was a viable
>character concept.

I agree. It`s part of making bloodline an ability score IMO. At first
blush I think it sounds like a good idea for a 3e conversion but when it
gets right down to it expressing bloodline as an ability score (and
attaching it to the point buy method of character generation) has several
problems, such as:

1. Bloodlines become expressed in a range from 8-18--which is effectively a
range of 1-11, a substantial difference in permutations from the original
bloodline system.

2. Because of the way bloodline is purchased we lose the lower "tainted"
bloodline strength.

3. As you note, spending points on bloodline as an ability score means the
character "pays" for his bloodline by having lower ability scores in other
ability scores, meaning that if one were to examine the blooded nobles of
greater bloodlines, sans that bloodline, they wind up being less impressive
characters that other non-blooded characters. A character like Darien
Avan, for example, if generated using this system`s mechanic would be a
rather anemic guy with a HUGE bloodline. As a result, there are guidelines
for "great heritage" but if one weren`t expressing bloodline as an ability
score one`s great heritage is factored into the bloodline.

4. The ability score mechanic operates in conjunction in many ways with
other aspects of 3e/D20 which the BR 3e conversion`s bloodline system
largely ignores. For instance, if the Noble PC class presented in that
text had more abilities based on bloodline, making that ability score the
"primary ability score" of the character class it would make more sense to
express bloodline as an ability score, but since it doesn`t, and since
other aspects of the game that rely on bloodline (the domain level,
bloodtheft, etc.) aren`t particularly more reliant upon the ability score
mechanic, expressing bloodline as an ability score doesn`t have much
relevance to the rest of the 3e/D20 mechanics.

5. Using bloodline as an ability score ties it in with the other ability
score mechanics of 3e so, for instance, a character can now raise his
bloodline a point every 4 character levels. Now, this is a change that
makes sense--if bloodline is an ability score. As originally
conceptualized, however, bloodline was separate from character features
like levelling up. It was a semi-divine, extraordinary system of powers
and abilities that interacted primarily with the domain level, but also at
the adventure level by granting special abilities and to a lesser extent
with other blooded characters in the sense that they could perform
bloodtheft on one another. That was it, though. Bloodline represented a
"higher order" of character features that did not generally interact with
other, adventure-level game mechanics because it was a bridge between the
adventure level and the domain level at which a character could become, to
paraphrase Hamlet, "like a god" in that their divine right to rule was
embodied by their birthright. If expressing bloodline as an ability score,
however, it makes sense that one should be able to raise it like any other
stat as a character levels up--even though that wasn`t the original
idea. It doesn`t break the system or anything, but it is a substantial
change in the way the bloodline system works, one that need not necessarily
be there, and one that IMO reduces the significance of the bloodline (and
the rest of the setting along with it) by equating one of the fundamental
aspects of the setting with strength or dexterity.

There are advantages to expressing bloodline as an ability score, but none
of them are IMO particularly compelling and often have ambiguous benefits:

1. A quick and easy connection to ability the score modifier system for use
when determining things like the DC needed to resist blood abilities.

Rebuttal: At first this seems like a very necessary mechanic for a 3e
conversion, but in fact if you go through the list of blood abilities there
aren`t that many that use the ability score modifier. For those occasions
when some sort of modifier is necessary, however, there are other ways of
coming up with one, some of which might actually make more sense. Using
ability score for bloodline there are modifiers possible in the range of
+10, which is substantially higher than the typical ability score modifier
for 3e. Since bloodline is a pretty mercurial stat characters with such
scores could easily exist, leading to issues of balance.

2. Expressing bloodline as an ability score allows the DM to balance
characters and gauge ECL.

Rebuttal: It does look that way, but in actuality I don`t think it works
out very well. ECL is better exemplified by a point value based on the
equivalent of hit dice, BAB, damage or other values that can be equated to
class features. The ECL numbers presented in the BR 3e Playtest text don`t
necessarily equate very well to actual character levels. I haven`t seen
any of the particular math behind those numbers, and such numbers are often
hazy to begin with, so I could be wrong in that assessment.

In the spirit of suggesting an alternate rather than merely critiquing the
material in the conversion, here`s another way of handling bloodline that,
I think, will be more satisfactory to all parties. It borrows "mechanics"
from both the original rules and the ability score mechanic. Please bear
in mind that this is a first draft sort of post.

Step #1: Roll bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is determined just
like any other ability score using whatever die roll method (3d6, 4d6
ignore lowest, etc.) the DM prefers for character generation, he can use
the point buy method if he likes, though that would result in the loss of
most low bloodlines. Subtract 2 for a range of 1-16. The result of this
roll (or points) determine two things. The first is the bloodline strength
of the character on the table below:

Score Strength
1+ Tainted
4+ Minor
8+ Major
12+ Great
16+ True (This be 18+ with an optional background feat called something
imaginative like... oh, "Improved Bloodline" or something that gave the PC
+2 on his bloodline strength score.)

Step #2. The result is also used to determined bloodline strength
score. Roll d6 for each point of the "bloodline strength" roll above. A
bloodline strength roll of 14 on the aforementioned roll means the player
should roll 14d6 to get his bloodline strength score; a range from 14-84
with an average of 49. An "average" roll of 9 on the previous bloodline
strength roll would result in a bloodline score of 9d6, or 9-54 with an
average of 31 or 32.

Step #3. Determine bloodline derivation.

Step #4. Determine blood abilities. Now, I`ve never liked the original
blood abilities table on p22 of the Rulebook. I would suggest that
something like this makes much more sense:

Score Abilities
1-10 1 minor
11-20 2 minor
21-30 1 minor, 1 major
31-40 2 minor, 1 major
41-50 2 minor, 2 major
51-60 2 minor, 1 major, 1 great
61-70 3 minor, 1 major, 1 great
71-80 2 minor, 2 major, 1 great
81-90 3 minor, 2 major, 1 great
91-100 2 minor, 2 major, 2 great

This table could be continued indefinitely for those rare characters with a
bloodline score greater than 100.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 11:24 AM 2/22/2003 -0600, Lord Shade wrote in the "Re: [BIRTHRIGHT]
> Draft 0.0 Birthright skills and feats" thread:
> ...
> I agree. It`s part of making bloodline an ability score IMO. At first
> blush I think it sounds like a good idea for a 3e conversion but when it
> gets right down to it expressing bloodline as an ability score (and
> attaching it to the point buy method of character generation) has several
> problems, such as:
>
> 2. Because of the way bloodline is purchased we lose the lower "tainted"
> bloodline strength.

Which is sad. There are huge numbers of unblooded people in Aebrynnis.
And among the blooded there are certainly (at least in the civilized
nations who do not constantly pray upon each other) HUGE numbers of
people with tainted (as in 2E) bloodlines - much more than great, major
or even minor bloodlines.
e.g. from bastard sons with bar maidens to use the example given in the
novel "Iron Throne" - there Aedan (the Imperial Chamberlain at that
time) on p. 293/294 explains to Sylvanna that unblooded woman often
tried to start a liasion with a noble, for the off chance that it might
lead to marriage or at least a bastart that the noble might feel
duty-bound to support... Which would produce large numbers of diluted
(due to blooded+unblooded heritage) bloodlines among these children.

Without proper ways to prevent getting a child (unless some herbalist
brews abortion potions) among the uneducated commoners, and even less
intention to prevent it if the child could be perhaps recognized by the
noble or at least bring in more money as "support" than a commoner could
ever hope to see...

> 5. Using bloodline as an ability score ties it in with the other ability
> score mechanics of 3e so, for instance, a character can now raise his
> bloodline a point every 4 character levels. Now, this is a change that
> makes sense--if bloodline is an ability score. As originally
> conceptualized, however, bloodline was separate from character features
> like levelling up. It was a semi-divine, extraordinary system of powers
> and abilities that interacted primarily with the domain level, but
> also at
> the adventure level by granting special abilities and to a lesser extent
> with other blooded characters in the sense that they could perform
> bloodtheft on one another. That was it, though. Bloodline represented a
> "higher order" of character features that did not generally interact with
> other, adventure-level game mechanics because it was a bridge between the
> adventure level and the domain level at which a character could
> become, to
> paraphrase Hamlet, "like a god" in that their divine right to rule was
> embodied by their birthright. If expressing bloodline as an ability
> score,
> however, it makes sense that one should be able to raise it like any
> other
> stat as a character levels up--even though that wasn`t the original
> idea. It doesn`t break the system or anything, but it is a substantial
> change in the way the bloodline system works, one that need not
> necessarily
> be there, and one that IMO reduces the significance of the bloodline (and
> the rest of the setting along with it) by equating one of the fundamental
> aspects of the setting with strength or dexterity.

And to really question the bloodline=ability score stuff: Would an
unblooded character be able to create a new bloodline of 1 when he gets
to raise one of his ability scores? No? Then bloodline is no ability
score and should not be treated as one.

> Rebuttal: It does look that way, but in actuality I don`t think it works
> out very well. ECL is better exemplified by a point value based on the
> equivalent of hit dice, BAB, damage or other values that can be
> equated to
> class features. The ECL numbers presented in the BR 3e Playtest text
> don`t
> necessarily equate very well to actual character levels. I haven`t seen
> any of the particular math behind those numbers, and such numbers are
> often
> hazy to begin with, so I could be wrong in that assessment.

And ECL´s - when they should work- must be used with care. A character
with a great bloodline gets +ECL because of his great bloodline abilites
- what if in that problem/encounter these abilites are useless? e.g. a
scion with a major or great bloodline with Unreadable Thoughts, Sea Song
and Magic Resistance and in a fight against Ogres with nailed clubs
clobbering him? Should some more Ogres be present because the scion has
a higher ECL?
bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman



There are advantages to expressing bloodline as an ability score, but none
of them are IMO particularly compelling and often have ambiguous benefits:

1. A quick and easy connection to ability the score modifier system for use
when determining things like the DC needed to resist blood abilities.

Rebuttal: At first this seems like a very necessary mechanic for a 3e
conversion, but in fact if you go through the list of blood abilities there
aren`t that many that use the ability score modifier. For those occasions
when some sort of modifier is necessary, however, there are other ways of
coming up with one, some of which might actually make more sense. Using
ability score for bloodline there are modifiers possible in the range of
+10, which is substantially higher than the typical ability score modifier
for 3e. Since bloodline is a pretty mercurial stat characters with such
scores could easily exist, leading to issues of balance.



Also the blood ability modifier is used for the DC made against blood abilities - DC = 12/15/18 + Bld modifier. If a different system is used then an alternative mechanic would also have to be implemented for saving throws. This mechanic was partially chosen so as to be consistent with the core D&D mechanic for saving throws.


Maybe I'm getting confused here but most of the discussion on whether or not to retain the "tainted" bloodline label seems to revolve around role-playing aspects and not actual game mechanics. In the 2nd ed rules the "only" difference was the score (the bloodline strength determined how many and what type of dice were rolled to determine the original number. All other aspects; number and type of blood abilities, amount of regency capable of being collected in a domain turn were based on the actual strength number. I mean that several people have commented on not using role-playing as a basis for a game mechanic.:)

[geeman]

At 08:01 PM 2/23/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>Also the blood ability modifier is used for the DC made against blood
>abilities - DC = 12/15/18 + Bld modifier. If a different system is used
>then an alternative mechanic would also have to be implemented for saving
>throws. This mechanic was partially chosen so as to be consistent with the
>core D&D mechanic for saving throws.

Sure, but its not the only possible way of doing it. One could assign a
"modifier" to the bloodline strengths; tainted +0, minor +1, major +2, etc.
or one could have a modifier based on every 10 points of bloodline
strength, or one could have the DCs set based on the strength of the blood
ability on a case by case basis. Blood abilities could be based on another
ability score (charisma seems apt, but this could be based on derivation)
in order to determine a DC. The need to have bloodline expressed as an
ability score in order to get the function of the ability score modifier
isn`t really all that pressing.

>Maybe I`m getting confused here but most of the discussion on whether or
>not to retain the "tainted" bloodline label seems to revolve around
>role-playing aspects and not actual game mechanics.

There are certainly ancillary role-playing aspects, but it`s primarily game
mechanics here. Tainted bloodlines representing low numerical scores are
more easily justified if using some sort of bloodline system that does not
relate to the ability score mechanic because the ability score mechanic
starts at 3 using dice or, worse, starts at 8 using the point buy
method. Figuring the bloodline strength of offspring using bloodline as an
ability score becomes very different from how it was originally
done. Also, bloodline as an ability score makes all blooded characters
earn RP in increments of 2, minimum 16. That`s higher than many regents
presented in the original materials. I just pulled out RoE and turned to
random page and on that page there was Parnien Anuvier Iniere (MA; T2; Br,
minor, 15; LN) whose bloodline would be have to be at least 16 to equate to
the bloodline as an ability score system.

When it gets right down to it, losing the tainted bloodline strength
removes several character concepts that existed in the original rules.

>In the 2nd ed rules the "only" difference was the score (the bloodline
>strength determined how many and what type of dice were rolled to
>determine the original number. All other aspects; number and type of
>blood abilities, amount of regency capable of being collected in a domain
>turn were based on the actual strength number.

That`s true, but it`s also another aspect that I find expressing bloodline
as an ability score is lacking. In the original system there were
functional differences within bloodline strengths. That is, a minor
bloodline could be powerful or it could be weak. A tainted bloodline could
be almost insignificant (it`s always going to have _some_ effect since at
the very least someone could gain RP from a holding) or one could gain an
unexpected power from it. Bloodline as an ability score, however, is much
less versatile.

>I mean that several people have commented on not using role-playing as a
>basis for a game mechanic.:)

I don`t think this is really a role-playing issue. To me, "tainted" is
just a label representing the low ends of the bloodline system. Those low
ends are lost in the 3e Playtest text, which is only one of the problems
with the presentation of bloodline as an ability score. Character`s with
tainted bloodlines could certainly be role-played differently than other
characters in the same way that a character with a true bloodline would be
role-played differently from other characters, but fundamentally it`s a
game mechanical issue not a role-playing one.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Tainted bloodlines makes some of the best vassals. You can make a buddy
with a 7 bloodstrength a single province confident that he can collect all
the RP he needs safe in the knowledge he can`t manage a realm the size of
yours.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 10:34 PM 2/23/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Tainted bloodlines makes some of the best vassals. You can make a buddy
>with a 7 bloodstrength a single province confident that he can collect all
>the RP he needs safe in the knowledge he can`t manage a realm the size of
>yours.

Heck, they make some of the best PCs. Most folks appear to like to play a
more domain oriented campaign than I do, but I have run some campaigns in
which a PC controls no more than a couple of low level law holdings,
sometimes as a vassal to a more powerful regent, sometimes
independently. It makes for a solid campaign, since players who build up a
holding on their own tend to value it all the more.

Gary

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[Dantain]

I agree, treating a blood as an ability score is a good idea on the surface bad in implimntation. Personally, I ahve been toying with the idea of utlizing the Deites and Demigods method for Divine Salient abilities, only at a lower scale (like 1 ability/5 blood points or so [might have to bring it up to 10]), then assign an ECL fof 1/2-3 abilities. Then add in requirments to the blood abilities of Blood Strength of X, it also makes it easier to balance the abilities with one another, as I have the ability to set each ability in comparison to others (putt bloodmark at the lower ends, and things like invurability, major regen at the top).

[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
And to really question the bloodline=ability score stuff: Would an
unblooded character be able to create a new bloodline of 1 when he gets
to raise one of his ability scores? No? Then bloodline is no ability
score and should not be treated as one.


This is a silly argument.

A character with a non-ability (a zero, in other words) cannot increase that ability. Thus, an undead creature (Constitution 0) that gains 4 levels would not be able to increase their Constitution.

Thus, a commoner (Bloodline 0) would be unable to increase their Bloodline score because they do not have one.

As for the Bloodline ability and comparing it to Bloodline Strength, it could be fairly easy.

Score Strength
0 Commoner
1-9 Tainted
10-15 Weak (Minor)
16-21 Strong (Major)
22-27 Noble (Great)
27+ Pure (True)

As for Bloodline abilities, turn them into spell-like abilities. Use the bonus spells chart in the PHB to determine when you get blood abilities. Then you reorganize the lists so that each bloodline has abilities from levels 1-9, based on existing spells and feats. One easy way to do this would be to decide what domains each Bloodline's deity had, and put those spell-like abilities on the list, as well as the ones currently listed.

Only have the Strength category used with bloodtheft, roleplaying purposes and detect spells (like Detect Bloodline).

With bloodtheft, the strength could determine how much of an increase you gain, compared to your own bloodline strength.

Here's an example system, better than my other one. I'm of the opinion that even taking out a weak bloodline and absorbing it should grant you a benefit, thus I came up with a temporary one.

If you kill a scion with a lower bloodline strength, you gain NOTHING except a +1 bloodline bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws for one hour per point of Bloodline the victim possessed.

If you kill a scion with an equal bloodline strength, you gain a +2 bonus to your Bloodline score (with successful bloodtheft, of course). A tainted scion (Bld 8) commits bloodtheft on another tainted scion (Bld 6), and gains a +2 bonus (Bld 10), which gives him a weak (minor) bloodline.

If you kill a scion with a greater bloodline strength, you gain an additional +2 bonus to your Bloodline score for each strength category (with successful bloodtheft, of course). Thus, the tainted scion (Bld 8) killing the pure scion (Bld 30) would gain a +10 bonus (+2 tainted, +2 weak, +2 strong, +2 noble, +2 pure) to his Bloodline score (Bld 18), which would make him a strong scion.

The Gorgon (Bld 60), a true scion, killing a weaker scion would gain nothing but a temporary bonus... a "high," if you will, but with no substantial increase. He would have to cultivate a pure bloodline before gaining anything... and even then, it's only a +2 increase.

[Edit]

The DCs for saves against any bloodline abilities should be DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Bld Modifier. Most characters with a higher bloodline score would be higher-level characters anyway, by being invested with other bloodlines, bloodtheft and such.

As for increasing Bloodline with ability points every four levels... I say it should be possible... after all, a scion earning experience, developing a name and rep for himself, building up his personal power should be able to increase his bloodline score in that way, showing that his actions make him more worthy... thus, his blood is more important.

[geeman]

At 12:06 AM 3/7/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>As for the Bloodline ability and comparing it to Bloodline Strength, it
>could be fairly easy.
>
>Score Strength
>0 Commoner
>1-9 Tainted
>10-15 Weak (Minor)
>16-21 Strong (Major)
>22-27 Noble (Great)
>27+ Pure (True)

If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
closely with the way the modifiers go up.

Out of curiosity, why the different terms?

>As for Bloodline abilities, turn them into spell-like abilities.

A couple of people have suggested this in the past. For many of the blood
abilities this would probably be apt, but on other occasions not so
much. It works out better if you decide on a case by case basis whether a
blood ability should be a spell-like, a supernatural or an extraordinary
ability.

>Use the bonus spells chart in the PHB to determine when you get blood
>abilities. Then you reorganize the lists so that each bloodline has
>abilities from levels 1-9, based on existing spells and feats.

How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at what point
would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level spell?

>If you kill a scion with a lower bloodline strength, you gain NOTHING
>except a +1 bloodline bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and saving
>throws for one hour per point of Bloodline the victim possessed.

I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
gods in an individual.

>If you kill a scion with an equal bloodline strength, you gain a +2 bonus
>to your Bloodline score (with successful bloodtheft, of course). A tainted
>scion (Bld 8) commits bloodtheft on another tainted scion (Bld 6), and
>gains a +2 bonus (Bld 10), which gives him a weak (minor) bloodline.
>
>If you kill a scion with a greater bloodline strength, you gain an
>additional +2 bonus to your Bloodline score for each strength category
>(with successful bloodtheft, of course). Thus, the tainted scion (Bld 8)
>killing the pure scion (Bld 30) would gain a +10 bonus (+2 tainted, +2
>weak, +2 strong, +2 noble, +2 pure) to his Bloodline score (Bld 18), which
>would make him a strong scion.
>
>The Gorgon (Bld 60), a true scion, killing a weaker scion would gain
>nothing but a temporary bonus... a "high," if you will, but with no
>substantial increase. He would have to cultivate a pure bloodline before
>gaining anything... and even then, it`s only a +2 increase.

Those all seem to basically make sense. One thing to note, however, is
that the above system does equate bloodline strength with bloodline score,
which most other people`s systems differentiate for various
reasons. Because of that it does make for a kind of weirdness in one
regard. If a scion with a bloodline of tainted(9) kills a scion with a
bloodline of weak(10) he will wind up with a bloodline of strong(13)
correct? +2 tainted, +2 strong. A scion with a bloodline of weak(10) who
kills the same guy would end up with a strong(12) bloodline, right? So the
scion with the weaker bloodline strength winds up benefiting more. That
happens at the upper end of each bloodline strength rating.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

Another problem is the "implied" ability to gain a true blood line. In the 2nd ed (and currently proposed) methodology it was impossible to acquire a true blood line unless the scion was at Mt Deismaar. The BRCS proposed version does have an allowance for direct investiture to account for "passing of the bloodline", but blood theft would never yield a "true" blood line.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by geeman
>Score Strength
>0 Commoner
>1-9 Tainted
>10-15 Weak (Minor)
>16-21 Strong (Major)
>22-27 Noble (Great)
>27+ Pure (True)

If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
closely with the way the modifiers go up.

Out of curiosity, why the different terms?

Well, each bloodline strength category begins on an even number, and ends on an odd modifier for a reason. For instance, if a 16 was the cut off for a minor bloodline, a character with a minor bloodline (16) and a scion with a major bloodline (17) would have the same modifier... that doesn't seem right to me.

As for the different terms... it's just the way I write... I usually phrase some of my mechanics to flow more with what a person in the setting would say...


A couple of people have suggested this in the past. For many of the blood
abilities this would probably be apt, but on other occasions not so
much. It works out better if you decide on a case by case basis whether a
blood ability should be a spell-like, a supernatural or an extraordinary
ability.

I agree there.


How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at what point
would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level spell?

When it has the power that a ninth level spell demonstrates. There will not be very many abilities of that level, and even less scions to possess them. I'm thinking more of blood abilities based on spell-like abilities from levels 1-5, supernatural and extraordinary abilities.


I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
gods in an individual.

True. Perhaps you could look the system over, take what you think is could and come up with some ideas for the rest? Why not help me hammer it out?


Those all seem to basically make sense. One thing to note, however, is
that the above system does equate bloodline strength with bloodline score,
which most other people`s systems differentiate for various
reasons. Because of that it does make for a kind of weirdness in one
regard. If a scion with a bloodline of tainted(9) kills a scion with a
bloodline of weak(10) he will wind up with a bloodline of strong(13)
correct? +2 tainted, +2 strong. A scion with a bloodline of weak(10) who
kills the same guy would end up with a strong(12) bloodline, right? So the
scion with the weaker bloodline strength winds up benefiting more. That
happens at the upper end of each bloodline strength rating.

You are so right. I'll add a cap to it, so that you can never increase your bloodline score above your victim's through bloodtheft.

[geeman]

At 08:35 AM 3/7/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>> >Score Strength
>> >0 Commoner
>> >1-9 Tainted
>> >10-15 Weak (Minor)
>> >16-21 Strong (Major)
>> >22-27 Noble (Great)
>> >27+ Pure (True)
>>
>>If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
>>up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
>>closely with the way the modifiers go up.
>
>Well, each bloodline strength category begins on an even number, and ends
>on an odd modifier for a reason. For instance, if a 16 was the cut off for
>a minor bloodline, a character with a minor bloodline (16) and a scion
>with a major bloodline (17) would have the same modifier... that doesn`t
>seem right to me.

There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.

Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
something that might need some consideration.

>
How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at
>what point
>would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level
>spell?
>
>When it has the power that a ninth level spell demonstrates. There will
>not be very many abilities of that level, and even less scions to possess
>them. I`m thinking more of blood abilities based on spell-like abilities
>from levels 1-5, supernatural and extraordinary abilities.

I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
(and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
use for comparison.

>
I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
>another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
>something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
>of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
>might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
>scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
>same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
>bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
>a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
>similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
>another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
>attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
>effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
>score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
>gods in an individual.
>
>True. Perhaps you could look the system over, take what you think is could
>and come up with some ideas for the rest? Why not help me hammer it out?

OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
numbers.

When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
"rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:

#1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
#2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
#3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
#4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
#5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
#6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score

That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
weapon.

In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
productive than the original system allowed.

Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
rewards I`d be very interested.

Gary

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[Mourn]

There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.

Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
something that might need some consideration.

Yeah, I noticed that when I replied to your message. Should be 28+.

Well, let's take a look at the modifiers associated with those scores. While we're at it, let's also compare it to the bonus spells chart and determine blood abilities.

Tainted (0-9) has modifiers of -5 to -1, which makes any use of the Bloodline ability score a drawback. At these scores, the scion would gain no blood abilities.

Weak (10-15) has modifiers of +0, +1, and +2. So, the weakest of the group receive no penalty, but no drawback from their bloodline. The next two gain a small bonus, as well as a 1st-level blood ability for the 12-13 scores, and a 1st- and 2nd-level blood ability for the 14-15 scores.

Strong (16-21) has modifiers of +3, +4, and +5. This is a good ability score rating for a character, with a solid bonus. At 16-17, they gain a 3rd-level ability, at 18-19 they gain a 4th-level ability, and at 20-21 they gain an additional 1st-level ability and a 5th-level ability. I don't find that overly powerful, but it might require an ECL adjustment.

Noble (22-27) has modifiers of +6, +7, and +8. They gain 6th, 7th, and 8th level abilities, respectively. They also gain an additional 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-level ability.

True (28+) begins with modifiers of +9, +10, and +11, then scales infinitely. They gain the last of the blood abilities, and continue to gain more.

The Gorgon (60) would have a +25 modifier, and 7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5 blood abilities. That does seem a little much to me...


I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
(and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
use for comparison.

I'm going to go over the blood abilities with a fine-toothed comb, and break each of the different abilities into its individual parts, compare power levels, and probably end up spreading the abilities around, since some of the current ones grant you up to four abilities at once, while others give you some minor benefit. They're not really balanced, as done now, but its a start. I'm going to focus on levels 1-5.


OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
numbers.

True. But that's only the case because it doesn't scale properly. Tainted has 9 numbers associated it with it, weak/strong/noble have 5 numbers associated with it, and pure has unlimited numbers. If each category had a rating system, like five ranks in each category, it would be much more regular and logical.


When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
"rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:

#1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
#2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
#3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
#4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
#5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
#6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score

That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
weapon.

In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
productive than the original system allowed.

Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
rewards I`d be very interested.

That is pretty detailed. It adds more math to the system, as well as checking on each category. Let's try to simplify it.

If your Bloodline is greater than your victim's, you gain a +2 bonus.
If your Bloodline is equal to your victim's, you gain a +4 bonus.
If your Bloodline is less than your victim's, you gain a +6 bonus.
If your Bloodline is less than half your victim's, you gain a +8 bonus.

Using a tighmaevril weapon to commit bloodtheft grants you an additional +2 bonus.

Thus a scion (10) using a tighmaevril weapon to slay another scion (22) would gain a +10 bonus to his Bloodline score.

I believe the bonuses should be even, so as to always increase the capability of the scion... absorbing the divine energy should always give you something new.

And I think tighmaevril should be written up as a material, ala DMG materials (or Magic of Faerun), rather than as an enhancement.

Here's a proposed version. I've never seen a description of what it looks like, so I am adding my own description to it... if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know.

Tighmaevril: Tighmaevril ("Bloodsilver") is a very rare silvery metal, shot through with streaks of rust. Weapons fashioned from tighmaevril have a natural enhancement bonus to attack and damage. These bonuses do not stack with any other enhancement bonuses. Thus, a tighmaevril (+3) greatsword enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus effectively has a +5 enhancement bonus. In an area where magic does not function, it still retains its natural +3 enhancement bonus.
Tighmaevril weapons assist with bloodtheft. Any scion reduced to -10 hit points or lower by a tighmaevril weapon automatically suffers the effects of bloodtheft, even if the attack is not a coup de grace. Tighmaevril weapons increase the bonus gained through bloodtheft by +2.
Weapons or armors fashioned from tighmaevril are treated as masterwork items with regard to creation times, but the masterwork quality does not affect the enhancement bonus of weapons or the armor check penalty of armor.
Tighmaevril has a hardness of 15 and 30 hit points per inch of thickness.

Item __________________ Enhancement ________ Price Modifier
Weapon (1d4/1d6) +1 +4,000 gp
Weapon (1d8/1d10) +2 +12,000 gp
Weapon (1d12/2d6) +3 +36,000 gp

[Mourn]

No comments, ideas, or arguments?

[Dahak]

Originally posted by Mourn
The Gorgon (Bld 60), a true scion, killing a weaker scion would gain nothing but a temporary bonus... a "high," if you will, but with no substantial increase. He would have to cultivate a pure bloodline before gaining anything... and even then, it's only a +2 increase.


Except we know the Gorgon does kill lesser scions [note how few there are in the Gorgon's crown has] for thier bloodlines.

Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big scary monsters may mug you it become even more powerful.

Adam

[Birthright-L]

> Dahak wrote:
> Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big
> scary monsters may mug you it become even more
> powerful.
>

It is also one of the disadvantage of being a big,
scary monster. Young, ambitious knights-errant might
come hunting you for your bloodline!

Therefore, IMC, most monsters had a bloodline score of
2* HD (2ed scale). Most of them are the descendants of
Avishleign (?) anyway! This makes monster-hunting a
reasonable and profitable pastime for young nobles.

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[RaspK_FOG]

People, I can see your points, but some of them are pretty... tedious&#33; For example, is there any real problme whether they called it an "ability score", if they are going to make this clear?

Secondly, I would like to see you playing a point-buy built paladin with a true bloodline... :P

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by geeman@Feb 23 2003, 09:08 PM
At 08:01 PM 2/23/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

There are certainly ancillary role-playing aspects, but it`s primarily game
mechanics here. Tainted bloodlines representing low numerical scores are
more easily justified if using some sort of bloodline system that does not
relate to the ability score mechanic because the ability score mechanic
starts at 3 using dice or, worse, starts at 8 using the point buy
method. Figuring the bloodline strength of offspring using bloodline as an
ability score becomes very different from how it was originally
done. Also, bloodline as an ability score makes all blooded characters
earn RP in increments of 2, minimum 16. That`s higher than many regents
presented in the original materials. I just pulled out RoE and turned to
random page and on that page there was Parnien Anuvier Iniere (MA; T2; Br,
minor, 15; LN) whose bloodline would be have to be at least 16 to equate to
the bloodline as an ability score system.

When it gets right down to it, losing the tainted bloodline strength
removes several character concepts that existed in the original rules.

I share many of your opinions as expressed here...translating the bloodline strength points into an attribute score seems to have really cut out a lot of character "configurations" that were once legal. Beyond the issue of cutting out characters with scores lower than 8 (16 in 2e) there is the issue of the abilities themselves. If I read the playtest rules correctly, no scion with a Bloodline Stat lower than 12 gets bloo abilities. That is a 24 in 2e system which is just rediculous...using the original chart even someone with a 10 or lower (a 5 in this conversion) still had a chance of having an ability.

In my birthright campaign (in which none of the PCs are currently regents) they rolled up their bloodline scores and I think maybe 1 out of the 5 characters has a score above 24...which under these 3e rules would have meant no bloodline abilities. Admittably, rolling for bloodline score or buying it with point buy is likely to end up with all PCs having hier scores than before (solving the ability problem) but it does present the issue that there are lots of NPC that are at that level and below.