Bloodtheft

[Mourn]

The system for bloodtheft is really clunky and bogs down gameplay pretty easily. Here's the one I use.

Bloodtheft
You can perform bloodtheft by performing a coup de grace against a helpless scion. If the coup de grace kills the character, you increase your Bloodline score by the victim's Bloodline modifier (thus a character with a Bloodline score of 14 killing a character with a 16 would gain a +3 bonus to his Bloodline score). Thus, killing the Gorgon (Bld 60) would grant a character a +25 to their Bloodline score.

Corruption
Your bloodline can become corrupted by the overwhelming power of another character's bloodline. If your bloodtheft victim's Bloodline score is higher than yours, you must make a Bloodline check (DC 10 + 1/2 the victim's HD + the victim's Bld modifier) or immediately switch derivation to that character's bloodline. Thus, killing the Gorgon almost guarantees that a character switches to Azrai's bloodline (DC 10 + 20 + 25 = 55).

Becoming a Scion
A non-scion character can perform bloodtheft on a scion, as per the system for bloodtheft. Thus, a non-scion that performs bloodtheft on a scion with a Bloodline of 16 would gain a Bloodline score of 3, of the scion's derivation.

[Perhelion]

Bloodtheft
You can perform bloodtheft by performing a coup de grace against a helpless scion. If the coup de grace kills the character, you increase your Bloodline score by the victim's Bloodline modifier (thus a character with a Bloodline score of 14 killing a character with a 16 would gain a +3 bonus to his Bloodline score). Thus, killing the Gorgon (Bld 60) would grant a character a +25 to their Bloodline score.

Unfortunately that would not take into account diminishing returns... The Gorgon, for instance, would still gain +3 bloodline points from slaying a 16 bloodline scion... And I'm sure old Raesene will have slain a few more in his time than 60 bloodline points would show with this rule.

[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1395
>
> Mourn wrote:
> The system for bloodtheft is really clunky and bogs down gameplay pretty easily. Here`s the one I use.
>
>Bloodtheft
>You can perform bloodtheft by performing a coup de grace against a helpless scion. If the coup de grace kills the character, you increase your Bloodline score by the victim`s Bloodline modifier (thus a character with a Bloodline score of 14 killing a character with a 16 would gain a +3 bonus to his Bloodline score). Thus, killing the Gorgon (Bld 60) would grant a character a +25 to their Bloodline score.
>
That is easy.

However there is a problem the other way: What happens when the Gorgon
(or any other being with a great/true bloodline) kills a scion? Does he
get the bloodline modifier EVERY time? If so, then why should he, as
mentioned in the books, "harvest" bloodlines so that they grow stronger
and stronger before he moves in for the kill after a generation? You
need a mechanic to make bloodtheft on scions far below your own score
fruitless - else the Gorgon could kill any scion with a bloodline
modifier of +1 or more and increase his own bloodline every time, no
need for "harvesting".

>Corruption
>Your bloodline can become corrupted by the overwhelming power of another character`s bloodline. If your bloodtheft victim`s Bloodline score is higher than yours, you must make a Bloodline check (DC 10 + 1/2 the victim`s HD + the victim`s Bld modifier) or immediately switch derivation to that character`s bloodline. Thus, killing the Gorgon almost guarantees that a character switches to Azrai`s bloodline (DC 10 + 20 + 25 = 55).
>
Why the victims HD? In the case of the Gorgon or other scions of Azrai
with Bloodform it would seem to make sense, however in any other case
what connection does the body of the victim have to the divine blood?
And even for those with bloodform - that they have bloodform is a result
of their bloodline and you already add the victims bld modifier to the DC.

Azrais Bloodline is the one which should stay as the easiest to "infect"
the slayers blood, as he was the god of evil, lies and corruption would
be his way to have his bloodline survive despite the attempts of the
other bloodliens scions to wipe his scions out. To reflect this it
should be harder to avoid the corruption of Azrais blood and/or easier
to avoid the corruption of the other bloodlines - or even only a
voluntary act, e.g. scion of Vorynn (a fighter!) slays a scion of
Anduiras - he chooses to change to the bloodline of Anduiras, like
Atonement for alignment as "corruption" is not the way of the other gods.

>Becoming a Scion
>A non-scion character can perform bloodtheft on a scion, as per the system for bloodtheft. Thus, a non-scion that performs bloodtheft on a scion with a Bloodline of 16 would gain a Bloodline score of 3, of the scion`s derivation.
>
I do not like that at all.
The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.

The 2 E rulebood even said that (p. 31) death of a scion at the hand of
an unblooded commoner is the same as natural death = no bloodtheft at
all, no new scion.

In my opinion it should be extremely unlikely that a non-blooded
commoner becomes blooded through bloodtheft. Most storys about NPC´s
mention that the blood of the slayer was "awakened" or similar through
the kill, like a scion with a tainted score raising his score after the
bloodtheft. And not that a non-blooded person became blooded.

The exceptions could be a VERY small chance for a non-blooded person to
become blooded - be it a fortitude save or whatever, or the requirement
that the non-blooded person has to use a tighmaevril weapon to be able
to commit bloodtheft and become blooded.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
>Becoming a Scion
>A non-scion character can perform bloodtheft on a scion, as per the system for bloodtheft. Thus, a non-scion that performs bloodtheft on a scion with a Bloodline of 16 would gain a Bloodline score of 3, of the scion`s derivation.
>
I do not like that at all.
The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.


BRCS Playtest document, page 38-39.

Non-blooded characters can become scions by being present for usurpation.

[Birthright-L]

> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
> >Becoming a Scion
> >A non-scion character can perform bloodtheft on a scion, as per the
system for bloodtheft. Thus, a non-scion that performs bloodtheft on a scion
with a Bloodline of 16 would gain a Bloodline score of 3, of the scion`s
derivation.
> >
> I do not like that at all.
> The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
> Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
> godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.
>
>

Don`t forget "The Land`s Choice".


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[kgauck]

> I do not like that at all.
> The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
> Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
> godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.

Adding to the list, several rulers are listed as having been non-blooded and
invested with the bloodline of a previous ruler. Such would beg the
question, is bloodtheft more of a sacred ritual, like investiture, no matter
how violent or unintended.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1395
>
> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
>
>>Becoming a Scion
>>A non-scion character can perform bloodtheft on a scion, as per the system for bloodtheft. Thus, a non-scion that performs bloodtheft on a scion with a Bloodline of 16 would gain a Bloodline score of 3, of the scion`s derivation.
>>
>I do not like that at all.
>The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
>Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
>godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.
>
>
>BRCS Playtest document, page 38-39.
>
>Non-blooded characters can become scions by being present for usurpation.
>
Yes, I know. However I was referring to the text of the 2E Birthright
rulebook, by which non-blooded people can´t simply stab a scion through
the heart and become a scion themselves. Bloodtheft of non-blooded on
scions should be ,if allowed at all, extre mely rare and not just as
likely as a scion killing a scion with the same consequences (that was
in the example someone else wrote add the victims bloodline modifier to
you, right?).

The BRCS draft 0.0 had at least the non-blooded make a characterlevel
check before being allowed to gain a bloodline.

To have no requirement at all would mean that any unblooded peasant
could become blooded simply by killing a scion
And if the word spread that everyone could have his share of divine
power simply by killing a scion, not by "receiving the right to rule
from the gods"... 95% of the population could dream of becoming blooded
by hunting the other 5% ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>>I do not like that at all.
>>The only documented moment that non-blooded people became blooded is
>>Deismaar and there were large, huge, extreme, overwhelming amounts of
>>godsblood present as several gods died in a cataclysm.
>>
>
>Adding to the list, several rulers are listed as having been non-blooded and
>invested with the bloodline of a previous ruler. Such would beg the
>question, is bloodtheft more of a sacred ritual, like investiture, no matter
>how violent or unintended.
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
The last part of your sentence was what I meant but did not explicitly
write.
I meant Deismaar was the only documented moment that non-blooded people
became blooded by VIOLENT means where blooded beings died.
I did not deny the option to become blooded by someone investing you
with his bloodline through designation.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
I meant Deismaar was the only documented moment that non-blooded people
became blooded by VIOLENT means where blooded beings died.
I did not deny the option to become blooded by someone investing you
with his bloodline through designation.


This section of the rules goes some way to explaining the info from Blood Enemies where several soon-to-be-awnsheghlien have attacked blooded scions and thus became blooded themselves.

Some examples include The Boar, the Chimaera, the Harpy (to some extent), the Hydra, the Lamia, the Seadrake, and so on.

Most of these examples occured during a violent encounter with a scion of Azrai, but there is no reason why other bloodlines could not also have a similar effect on unblooded characters.

[Perhelion]

(Just thinking)
That could be because the bloodline of Azrai moe than any other refuses to die and would rather transfer itself to another vessel no matter what (e.g the Boar).
Speaking of which (slightly off topic) what happens to a bloodline when the vessel dies? Does it return to Cerilia? Likewise, how do people see the increase/loss of blood strength as a total sum? Does it stay constant? When a scion raises his bloodline does something somewhere lose out? Or is it possible for the actual divine essence to increase in potency as time passes?

[geeman]

At 09:24 AM 3/6/2003 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:

>This section of the rules goes some way to explaining the info from Blood
>Enemies where several soon-to-be-awnsheghlien have attacked blooded scions
>and thus became blooded themselves.

When it comes to those creatures and characters who were commoners and
gained a bloodline after slaying a scion I would like for there to be some
sort of game mechanical explanation. I suppose this might have something
to do with the way bloodtheft works in the original materials or in the 3e
BRCS since neither really work very well IMO. The actual numbers in the
original system don`t make much sense, and the way bloodline gets shot out
of a scion in the form of RP in the BRCS in a sort of mini-Deismaar strikes
me as not being the way to go.

The "RP explosion" was done in order to accommodate those few awnsheghlien
who were unblooded creatures and got a bloodline after slaying a
scion. That happens so seldom, however, that I don`t know if it needs to
be possible every time a scion is killed by being stabbed through the
heart. There are several ancillary effects to that kind of rule. First of
all, it makes me wonder how a scion could reach the age of 25. While
gaining a bloodline is not assured it would make killing a scion something
of a lottery ticket for commoners. While that`s always been the case for
scions killing other scions, there are few enough of them and they are
spread out around Cerilia, they are less likely to run across one
another. For every scion there are 999 commoners (more or less) and if
commoners can perform bloodtheft then a scion would have to feel the same
concern for his safety amongst all people (not to mention wild boars,
wolves or just about any creature) that he would feel in the presence of
other characters with a bloodline.

Those few occasions in which a bloodline of Azrai appeared after an act of
"bloodtheft" occurred could, in fact, be explained as simply the manner in
which the Land`s Choice happens for Azrai`s bloodline. After all, why must
the LC be benevolent, and what better way to "earn" a corrupted bloodline
than by killing a scion? The Land`s Choice apparently does not occur
unless a bloodline dies out, and the "new" bloodline need not necessarily
be that of the one that has ended. The both occur rarely enough that one
could just use a similar method to explain how they work.

So if there was some sort of system for describing how the Land`s Choice
occurs it could account for those occasions when Azrai`s bloodline has
"infected" a commoner. Of course, that means coming up with some sort of
mechanic for that....

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 1:00 PM

> While gaining a bloodline is not assured it would make killing a
> scion something of a lottery ticket [...].

This has always bothered me. As a consequence, I have only allowed
bloodtheft when fighting for the realm or family. Duels of honor, fights
for the realm, battles, all can be occasions of bloodtheft. Random abushes,
sneak attacks, and assasination attempts all aimed at stealing blood would
yield nothing. Its the connection between ruler and realm that controls the
blood, even when the realm is nothing more than the family (dynasty).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
Yes, I know. However I was referring to the text of the 2E Birthright
rulebook, by which non-blooded people can´t simply stab a scion through
the heart and become a scion themselves. Bloodtheft of non-blooded on
scions should be ,if allowed at all, extre mely rare and not just as
likely as a scion killing a scion with the same consequences (that was
in the example someone else wrote add the victims bloodline modifier to
you, right?).


Well, I'd hate to say it... but I don't give a damn about 2nd Edition or its rulebooks. After all, I ceased to play that game over four years ago, and have never looked back. I only pay attention to the 3rd Edition rules, as that's what I play.

Well, according to the BRCS, a commoner can become a scion by being present for usurpation. In my system, the common has to commit the bloodtheft personally, performing a coup de grace attack against the scion. Due to the balance issues (in favor of the scion, see my Feedback thread), a commoner defeating a scion will be rare.



The BRCS draft 0.0 had at least the non-blooded make a characterlevel
check before being allowed to gain a bloodline.


I've thought about adding checks... after all, that release of energy could just kill you. I've thought about adding a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Bld mod), or suffer damage. I've thought about adding a Will save (same DC) or suffer from mental Ability loss. I've also thought about adding a Reflex save in order to avoid the energies completely... but never implemented it.



To have no requirement at all would mean that any unblooded peasant
could become blooded simply by killing a scion


Well, there's really no requirement to become a scion at 1st-level anyhow. You just choose to be one, gain a few benefits, and really lose NOTHING.



And if the word spread that everyone could have his share of divine
power simply by killing a scion, not by "receiving the right to rule
from the gods"... 95% of the population could dream of becoming blooded
by hunting the other 5% ;-)


Then that's just too bad for the scions. Blood is a precious thing, and it must be guarded.