Draft 0.0 p. 18 Paladin

[ConjurerDragon]

I noticed for the first time that the old 2E restriction on paladins
(never retain wealth but tithe it, and have no more than 10 magical items)
were no longer in the 3E PHB.

In my opinion, if the 3E PHB dropped this rule (at least I could not find
it) then it should be included in the Birthright rules.

If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to do
the same.

And in the case of restricting the 2E Paladin to "nore more than 10 magical
items, that may not exceed one suit of armour, one shield, four weapons
(arrows and bolts not counted) and four other magical items" for the core
rules, which assume that in most worlds magic is readily available, then in
Birthright this should be even more restricted.

Even in the 2E Book of Regency it was mentioned that Paladins tithe magical
items to the temples (in the optional rule of gaining magical items instead
of taxation).

On the domain level, a paladin regent (is there anyone besides Elinie?) will
rarely amass huge amounts of GB, so that rule would not be too restricting,
and even if he earns much, he certainly spends much as well. And 10 Magical
items are more than many characters will own in their whole life on Cerilia.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Dantain]

In regards to if there are other Paladin regents, I think Arialya (in Khinasi) is lead by a Paladin of Avani.

As to the rest of it: I agree fully aside from more restriced on magical items.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:06 AM


> If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to
do
> the same. [regarding realms]

As a DM, I employ the "seperation between court and state" principle. In
the medieval state, the state was the personal property of the ruler, during
the renaissance, the idea that the ruler held an office of the state, and
the idea was prudent to distingish between the office and the office holder
arose. So the wealth of the state is not the personal wealth of a paladin.
Even the court must have a certain amount of oppulance to achieve prestige
and the associated diplomacy bonus. But the Paladin will seek a kind of
oppulance which does not make him personally comfortable or indulgent.
Public buildings, oppulant spaces, and large corps of artists, are
altogether different. Consider modern republics. They don`t treat their
heads of state as people to be pampered, but they still have marble
buildings of grandure, balls, bands, paintings, and poet laureates. Of
course it would be the same from the paladin`s point of view if they were
living in a temple, never mind being ruler of a temple. Lots of central
temples are oppulant and full of art and architecture of glory and grandure.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Dantain

In regards to if there are other Paladin regents, I think Arialya (in Khinasi) is lead by a Paladin of Avani.

As to the rest of it: I agree fully aside from more restriced on magical items.
Yes Ariya is lead by a paladin. Magical items aren't restiricted any more (thanks goodness). If you are high level enough you will have this much that a restriction is absolutely awfull and a real punishment...

[irdeggman]

The wealth and magic item limitations for paladins were not Birthright specific rules they were in the core 2nd rules. I see no reason to include them into a 3rd ed setting. They had nothing to do with the Birthright campaign setting and as such we really shouldn't look at ways to "rewrite the 3rd ed rules".

There was also a 2nd ed rule concerning rangers and the number of people that they could adventure with wothout osing experience, that rule has also gone by the wayside in 3rd edition along with the individual exp awards per class (which lead to internal competition amongst the players in trying to jocky their character into getting more, the 3rd ed system promotes "team play" and not competition).

[geeman]

Having been ignoring the limitation on paladin`s equipment since 1e I`m not
real worried about whether or not it shows up in a later
supplement.... I`d suggest, though, that in and of itself the limitations
don`t make a whole lot of sense. Though certain characters still do run
around with bags of magic items, in BR where magic items are supposedly
more rare it`s less likely that characters (regardless if they are paladins
or not) will have that many items. It could certainly happen, of course,
but by and large it`s not much of a restriction.

As for paladin regents, there`s also Elinie and the regent in charge of
Haelyn`s Aegis is a paladin too, isn`t she?

Gary

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[Mark_Aurel]

In my opinion, if the 3E PHB dropped this rule (at least I could not find
it) then it should be included in the Birthright rules.

If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to do
the same.


That was a bad rule; essentially, it was a way that TSR attempted to "balance" paladins - since they were a strictly better class than fighters if you didn't use the rules for weapon specialization. In 3e, balance works differently - the classes are supposed to be roughly equal in terms of overall power or usefulness (somewhat campaign dependent, of course). In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk. Roughly equal amounts of magical gear tends to bridge this gap for paladins and fighters a bit; probably moreso for fighters than paladin, but it's still a real 3e balance concern that mid- to high-level paladins should have enough magical items to compete.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:48 PM


> In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in
> order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical
> armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting
> duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk. Roughly equal
> amounts of magical gear tends to bridge this gap for paladins
> and fighters a bit; probably moreso for fighters than paladin,
> but it`s still a real 3e balance concern that mid- to high-level
> paladins should have enough magical items to compete.

Fighter-types don`t have to have magic, they could also be balanced by
powerful high level feats (similar to epic feats). Armor specialization,
attack and damage bonuses, damage reduction, DR penetration, save bonuses,
all can be delivered by feats to the strait fighter or fighter-type. If
magic weapons are specifically reduced in frequency, feats, esp higher level
ones, can be used to make up the difference.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel

In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk.
I agree with you completely...

[Mourn]

Originally posted by kgauck
Fighter-types don`t have to have magic, they could also be balanced by
powerful high level feats (similar to epic feats). Armor specialization,
attack and damage bonuses, damage reduction, DR penetration, save bonuses,
all can be delivered by feats to the strait fighter or fighter-type. If
magic weapons are specifically reduced in frequency, feats, esp higher level
ones, can be used to make up the difference.


Magic items are much easier to acquire than feats. Magic items require the money and the availability, not having to wait two or three levels until you get another feat.

Also... there's no feats for Armor Specialization (whatever that is), nor any feats to grant a fighter damage reduction or the ability to penetrate damage reduction until you get to the Epic Level material... which should have no bearing on balancing mechanics for levels 1-20.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 8:16 PM


> Magic items are much easier to acquire than feats. Magic
> items require the money and the availability, not having to
> wait two or three levels until you get another feat.

The premise of the conversation is "what happens when magic items are rare."
So, they aren`t neccesarily easier to aquire than feats. Feat aquisition is
regular and you can plan on it. Magic aquisition is irregular and you
cannot rely on ever finding anything. The more rare magic is, the more this
becomes an expectation of finding no magic.

> Also... there`s no feats for Armor Specialization (whatever that is),
> or any feats to grant a fighter damage reduction or the ability to
> penetrate damage reduction until you get to the Epic Level material
> ... which should have no bearing on balancing mechanics for levels 1-20.

If I take magic away from players, there is nothing preventing me from
beefing up higher level (10-20th level) feats to compensate. The result is
a more mundane, though no less fantastic setting. I could create or adjust
prerequisites to replace magic, and do it well so long as I look to balance
the power and potency of PC`s vs opponants.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by kgauck
The premise of the conversation is "what happens when magic items are rare."


Actually, the premise of the conversation is "should the paladin retain the wealth restriction he had in 2nd edition?"


If I take magic away from players, there is nothing preventing me from
beefing up higher level (10-20th level) feats to compensate. The result is
a more mundane, though no less fantastic setting. I could create or adjust
prerequisites to replace magic, and do it well so long as I look to balance
the power and potency of PC`s vs opponants.

Yeah, but remember this is a discussion for the playtest document. What works for you as a DM doesn't always work for everybody else.

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Also... there`s no feats for Armor Specialization (whatever that is),
> > or any feats to grant a fighter damage reduction or the ability to
> > penetrate damage reduction until you get to the Epic Level material
> > ... which should have no bearing on balancing mechanics for levels 1-20.
>
> If I take magic away from players, there is nothing preventing me from
> beefing up higher level (10-20th level) feats to compensate. The result is
> a more mundane, though no less fantastic setting. I could create or adjust
> prerequisites to replace magic, and do it well so long as I look to balance
> the power and potency of PC`s vs opponants.

This is exactly what d20 modern does, creating a based defense bonus
(based on class levels) to AC, and talent trees which add damage,
penetrate DR, and all other kinds of things.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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