Core Materials design philosophy

[Lord Rahvin]

> As for Cerilian gnomes, well, they -could- be added, -if- (and only if) there is consensus to revive them as a race as originally envisioned by Rich Baker. I don`t think most people are interested in that, however, because it`s not true to the original Birthright.


Why not?! What could possibly be gained in leaving that material out?
What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesireable races
within the sacred core book?

If it`s in the core materials and people don`t want in the campaign, they
won`t allow it. Simple, direct. These people can still play their game.
If people want it in their campaign, and it`s not in the book, what happens
then? What good is a game book if you purposefully leave out material
needed to play the game? All that`s really doing is making sure people play
their games the way you want it played.

Beyond space/time limitations, I can see no reason for purposefully
excluding game materials. To extend the argument to ludicrous proportions:
If I want to play a game with non-blooded adventurers, I am not extremely
hindered by the inclusion of bloodline rules within the rulebook. However,
if I wanted to play a game wherin PCs had these blood abilities and those
rules were purposefully left out to accomodate non-blooded adventuring
campaigns, that would be fairly annoying.

Personally, I hate that everytime I say "Let`s generate characters", soemone
in my gaming group takes out the DMG and wants to play a damn minotaur. I`m
thinking my first adventure is going to be about establishing a trade route
between Roesone up through Ghoere, and my foolheardy patato-chip-munching
players are trying to create characters that will eventually become a
Minotaur Monk, a dwarven Paladin of Moridin with his flying warhorse, an
elven ShadowDancer/Assassin/ArcaneArcher, and a Khinasi wizard with wands of
fireballs and scrolls of magic missiles. And of course, they all want
Healing as a blood ability.

Nevertheless, despite the aggrevation, I`m glad those options are there. I
like the idea that I can have a minotaur PC in my game, or that I can have
Minotaur Monks running around as NPCs. It just means I have to go down the
list each time: This campaign will *not* have gnomes, gnolls, minotaurs,
tieflings, half-dragon/half-vampire medusa rogue/assassins, etc.

More options are better. That`s purely it. And if these options can be
worked out within the core materials, to be as balanced and compatible with
all the core materials as possible, that`s a much better improvement than
saying, "Well, if you`re going to run your own custom game, go ahead and
makeup your own custom rules then. So there."

Now, there is still the space/time limitations. I`ve tried to say "core
materials" rather than "core book", because I don`t believe there should be
only one core book. Indeed, there`s not reason why every chapter shouldn`t
have a corresponding core supplement. Saying you want to exclude Gnolls
because you don`t want it in the main core rulebook is an argument I`ll
accept long before I`ll accept "because it`s not true to the original
Birthright".

Personally, I`d like core materials to be modular rather than comprehensive,
with a section at the end of each chapter giving guidelines on why the
particular game mechanics of that chapter were included, some ideas that
were tossed out, and recommendations for some house rules. This whole
section could also be the introduction to official supplements that would
expand on these chapters. Personally, I think a book on "Races and Cultures
of Cerelia" that was specifically divided into two parts: one on setting
source material and the other part on game mechanics that expend the
race/culture chapter would be a very desireable approach.

More options are better. And if someone wants Minotaur Monks in their game
because there`s a particular niche/story of Cerelia that they`re trying to
play out, I don`t think its fair for the core materials or their writers to
say, "You`re not being true to the original Birthright."

I argue that the entirety of any given system should *not* be agreed on when
making the core materials. Take bloodlines for an example. We can agree on
a fairly simple ability-score based bloodline system for the core books.
But a supplemental expansion I`d like to see in a book focussed purely on
bloodlines and blood abilities, would be a variety of alternate ways to
determine and use bloodlines and blood abilities in the Birthright game. A
checklist could be provided at the end of each book describing all the new
blood abiltiies, bloodline generation rules, bloodtheft mechanics,
blood-feats (for those of you into that kind of thing), and such. Then the
DM just has to go down the checklist and say, "This Southern Coast
Trade-based campaign will be using this... this... not that... this..."

We could even have a list of campaign models. For example, War-Themed,
Intrigue-Themed, Bloodline-Themed, Shadow-World-Themed,
Unite-The-Empire-Themed, Survive-Winter-Themed campaigns can all have
recommended pre-generated checklists that could easily be modified and
customized.

I strayed a bit. My point was more options are better. Include the gnoll.
But I`m not going to allow it in my game. As it is, in my game, PCs all
have to belong to the same family -- same race, same bloodline, etc.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>>Why not?! What could possibly be gained in leaving that material out? What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesirable races within the sacred core book? >>>>>


A system should be inclusionary, but it is detrimental to a setting. Example: maybe I want to play a cyborg T-1000 terminator in BR - after all there are d20 rules for them? Why don`t we throw those in the main rulebook also?

In converting a setting from XX to 3E the main goal (IMO) is to preserve the setting, not standard D&D. Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Judge Dread, Ever Quest and on and on have demonstrated that the setting is paramount, not the ability to use all the magic weapons from the DMG or the MM. The attitude of everything and the kitchen sink steals the very thing from Birthright that keeps people playing it after several years of being oop.

Birthright is a setting that has a specific flavor, say like Coke. Other colas are out there and people like those well enough, but mixing Coke, Pepsi, Dr Pepper and RC into one bottle will not please anyone. They are all basically made from the same things, but by freely mixing them we have disturbed the subtle balance of ingredients of each separate product and turned them into one great big homogenous glass of blllaaaghhh.

Why can`t I play a Jedi in the Star Trek campaign? Because it does not belong. Pretty simple answer.

Eosin the Red

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Eosin the Red
A system should be inclusionary, but it is detrimental to a setting. Example: maybe I want to play a cyborg T-1000 terminator in BR - after all there are d20 rules for them? Why don`t we throw those in the main rulebook also?


Now you're just being silly. There's a vast difference between the inclusion of things in the core D&D game and the inclusion of non-D&D material.



In converting a setting from XX to 3E the main goal (IMO) is to preserve the setting, not standard D&D. Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Judge Dread, Ever Quest and on and on have demonstrated that the setting is paramount, not the ability to use all the magic weapons from the DMG or the MM. The attitude of everything and the kitchen sink steals the very thing from Birthright that keeps people playing it after several years of being oop.


Star Wars is not a D&D campaign setting. Wheel of Time is not a D&D campaign setting. Judge Dredd is not a D&D campaign setting. EverQuest is not a D&D campaign setting.

Birthright is a D&D campaign setting. Birthright should not rewrite the core mechanics of the game. It may choose not to include certain magical items, spells, and monsters, but it should not take core classes and mechanics, then change them. And honestly, most of the mechanic revisions have been of extremely poor quality, without any sort of balance.



Birthright is a setting that has a specific flavor, say like Coke. Other colas are out there and people like those well enough, but mixing Coke, Pepsi, Dr Pepper and RC into one bottle will not please anyone. They are all basically made from the same things, but by freely mixing them we have disturbed the subtle balance of ingredients of each separate product and turned them into one great big homogenous glass of blllaaaghhh.


Yes, but there is a difference between preserving the flavor of a game by not adding certain things, and allowing the game to stagnate by not coming up with new material. The BRCS should not just be a rewrite of 2nd edition with 3rd edition rules. It should be a complete update, allowing for new rules, further development of the setting, and most definitely a progressive timeline.

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting changed the way a lot of things were done in 2nd edition, and it is so much better for it.



Why can`t I play a Jedi in the Star Trek campaign? Because it does not belong. Pretty simple answer.


Actually, the real answer to that question is "The GM said no." You could play a goddamn tarrasque Jedi, piloting the Defiant through the Delta Quadrant if your GM allowed you to.

I think that everyone needs to realize that 2nd edition is DEAD and any holdovers from its days are DEAD as well. Every single game mechanic needs to be completely overhauled and reevaluated, without a thought for how 2nd edition did it. If 2nd edition handled the system so well, then it wouldn't have died.

[Birthright-L]

> What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesireable races
> within the sacred core book?
>
> If it`s in the core materials and people don`t want in the campaign, they
> won`t allow it. Simple, direct. These people can still play their game.
> If people want it in their campaign, and it`s not in the book, what happens
> then? What good is a game book if you purposefully leave out material
> needed to play the game? All that`s really doing is making sure people play
> their games the way you want it played.
>
My understanding of this project was that it was supposed to be a
conversion...not a revision. There are no gnomes as PCs in Birthright.
The original books are very specific about this. The reasoning is
somewhat vague, however, it is one of those things that makes this setting
a bit different. There are no psionics either...same reasoning.

If you want to have gnomes and psionics (or any of the other things that
aren`t "supposed" to be there) in your game..go ahead.. The basic rules
are in the PHB for playing one. The team can`t really come up with the
conversion for you, as there isn`t anything to convert, so you are kind of
on your own on this.

If the point was to redesign the setting, there is a ton of things to
change..as you mentioned, should they include stats for PC minotaurs? How
about titans? Beholders? I`ve been a DM for 20 years, and have been
asked to allow about every monser variety in the books as a PC.. I don`t
think the "core" rules are the place for these varients. Convert the
original rules as well as possible, and additional info can be distributed
in an additional "suppliment"

Sean

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>>Birthright is a D&D campaign setting.

No, D&D is a setting called Greyhawk. d20 is a game system used in all of the mentioned settings, including D&D & BR. However, you were correct when you said SW, WoT, JD, etc... were not D&D settings, they are not. They are d20 settings.

>>>> I think that everyone needs to realize that 2nd edition is DEAD and any holdovers from its days are DEAD as well. Every single game mechanic needs to be completely overhauled and reevaluated, without a thought for how 2nd edition did it. If 2nd edition handled the system so well, then it wouldn`t have died.

Won`t be a problem, never played 2e. I am fairly new to BR.


Eosin the Red

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 7:32 PM


> I think that everyone needs to realize that 2nd edition is DEAD
> and any holdovers from its days are DEAD as well. Every single
> game mechanic needs to be completely overhauled and reevaluated,
> without a thought for how 2nd edition did it. If 2nd edition handled
> the system so well, then it wouldn`t have died.

The body be cold, but the spirit lives on for many on this forum. I detect
a serious attempt by the BRCS team to remain true to that spirit, and to
focus on the new mechanics. Setting material, like the frequency or
availablilty of non-standard races as PC`s is pretty well set out in the
material. The one exception I notice is the goblin, which has a pretty wide
acceptance as a viable class (under the right circumstances) among many
here.

What dies has less to do with its quality than it does with its popularity,
marketing, the health of the publisher, and the philosophy of the publisher
to proliferate or retrench the number of settings.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Eosin the Red
No, D&D is a setting called Greyhawk. d20 is a game system used in all of the mentioned settings, including D&D & BR. However, you were correct when you said SW, WoT, JD, etc... were not D&D settings, they are not. They are d20 settings.


Since you're new, you obviously don't know the history of things. Birthright was a campaign setting developed for the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition game. This was years before 3rd Edition D&D, which is the core system of the d20 System. Birthright is a D&D campaign setting, which is why it is still owned by Wizards of the Coast.


Won`t be a problem, never played 2e. I am fairly new to BR.

Good. Then that does not apply to you.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by kgauck
The body be cold, but the spirit lives on for many on this forum. I detect
a serious attempt by the BRCS team to remain true to that spirit, and to
focus on the new mechanics. Setting material, like the frequency or
availablilty of non-standard races as PC`s is pretty well set out in the
material. The one exception I notice is the goblin, which has a pretty wide
acceptance as a viable class (under the right circumstances) among many
here.

That's not what I'm disputing. Without the spirit and fervor of the people on this forum, this would never have come to be. Remaining true to the spirit of Birthright is essential, but there has to be new growth.


What dies has less to do with its quality than it does with its popularity,
marketing, the health of the publisher, and the philosophy of the publisher
to proliferate or retrench the number of settings.

Poorly written material does not sell. Gamers always say they would pay money for a cheap, crappy copy of some long abandoned campaign setting, but in truth, they wouldn't. When a publisher begins to steadily put out lousy material, just as TSR did toward the end of its life, it loses its popularity. The 3rd Edition core books have been out for about 3 years now, and have already outsold the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct bearing on popularity.

[Eosin the Red]

> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by Eosin the Red
> No, D&D is a setting called Greyhawk. d20 is a game system used in all of
the mentioned settings, including D&D & BR. However, you were correct when
you said SW, WoT, JD, etc... were not D&D settings, they are not. They are
d20 settings.
>
>
> Since you`re new, you obviously don`t know the history of things.
Birthright was a campaign setting developed for the Advanced Dungeons &
Dragons 2nd Edition game. This was years before 3rd Edition D&D, which is
the core system of the d20 System. Birthright is a D&D campaign setting,
which is why it is still owned by Wizards of the Coast.


New does not equal stupid. Maybe we should define a few things, since I
obviously do not know your history of things. New to BR, does not equal new
to D&D, 3E, or d20 - it means new to BR. You seem to like to change what I
say?

2nd edition = all campaigns were D&D campaigns, except for Amazing Engine,
Alternity, and Dark Matter, possibly others that I do not know about.

D&D = Greyhawk, the default setting. That is what the book called the
players handbook details. Nothing more, nothing less. It uses an engine
called the d20 system.

SRD = core of d20 system, not the PHB.

WotC ownership = not automatically D&D. They also own several settings that
you rightfully pointed out were not D&D but wrongfully included some that
were like BR or FR. If ownership is the only criteria to be D&D then SW,
WoT, Diablo, and Call of Cthulu would all be D&D settings. They aren`t.

Birthright = an AD&D setting or a setting that is being adapted to the d20
system with strong influence from 3E (meaning core Wizards products -
including FR materials and splatt books).

Now, back to flavor and setting. RPG settings need not include everything to
be good. Often times the opposite is true, by trying to please everyone, you
ensure that no one is happy with the product. I already included the coke +
pepsi + Dp + RC example, so refer to it. Someone, somewhere has to draw a
line that says -"these things are not in the spirit of BR." You might
consider a minotaur ok but not a Terminator. I might like Demons and Angels
in BR. We all have things that we add or subtract to the setting to make it
our setting but the public setting was defined long ago in a series of RPG
supplements. The BR team can include what they personally like to see in
their home games or what they think would be cool to see or they can try to
update the rules from second edition and leave the setting alone. Including
everything that is in the players handbook, DMG, & MM diminishes the
setting - they had to pick and choose based on precedent. I think they did a
good job in their stated objective for the core book.

They (or others) have said that other books are possible and some of those
might explore humanoid characters (like Gnomes). The objection raised is why
include things that were never in BR within the core book, to my
understanding your reply is cause it is in GH or the FR? I can and do change
things to make them more like the game I want to play but I do not tell
everyone that they should use Chromatic Dragons, Bahamut and Tiamat just
because I like them and they are part of the core setting. Let BR be itself
and not a pale shadow of GH or FR. I can buy supplements to those worlds if
I want, BR.net is where I get BR material.

Eosin

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[geeman]

At 07:29 AM 3/8/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>
Originally posted by kgauck
>The body be cold, but the spirit lives on for many on this forum. I detect
>a serious attempt by the BRCS team to remain true to that spirit, and to
>focus on the new mechanics. Setting material, like the frequency or
>availablilty of non-standard races as PC`s is pretty well set out in the
>material. The one exception I notice is the goblin, which has a pretty wide
>acceptance as a viable class (under the right circumstances) among many
>here.
>
>That`s not what I`m disputing. Without the spirit and fervor of the
>people on this forum, this would never have come to be. Remaining true to
>the spirit of Birthright is essential, but there has to be new growth.

I think the dispute is that some folks seem to think that growth should
take the form of any and every template or character class available in 3e
as opposed to templates and character classes different from those in the
core D&D books that are developed particularly for BR. Emulating every
aspect (particularly the goofier and more pointless ones) of 3e is not the
way to go. It is, in fact, at best the illusion of growth. At best it is
just emulation, but I think it would be more aptly described as
dissolution. Many of the same things that are 3e templates or character
classes were available in 2e and were expressly excluded from the campaign
setting when it was devised. Putting them into an update because a new
edition of the core rules has come out misses the point in excluding them
in the first place, which is that they do not conform to the themes
expressed by the setting.

That, of course, does not mean that someone can`t include whatever they
want in their homebrew. The argument that every possibility of the core
materials should be included in the setting material in order to make it a
third edition product (which if you`ll notice the BRCS document is not--it
says "D20" right there on the cover) completely misses the point in
devising setting material that is different from the core settings in the
first place. One can bring in material from other sources certainly if one
wants, but including so much of that stuff in the setting material not only
is an amazingly good example of redundancy but a superfluous one at that.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 02:32 AM 3/8/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>There`s a vast difference between the inclusion of things in the core D&D
>game and the inclusion of non-D&D material.

Actually, the standard that was suggested was that NO gaming material
should be excluded in a core text. D&D stuff was not the guideline. Even
if it were the guideline, though... why should it be? I mean, if one wants
to play a psionic half-dragon gnome monk in Cerilia then why not a
T2000? The T2000 you could at least justify by making it an awnsheghlien....

No one (as has been claimed by Lord Rahvin) is trying to force people to
play in one way or another. If someone wanted to play Cerilian gnomes or a
T2000 there`s nothing stopping you. To be frank, very few people in the BR
community seem to be so non-ego formed as gamers that something as
innocuous as the BRCS update is going to actually dictate to them how they
are going to game, so even if that were the intent of the authors it`s
pretty futile, and not something to get all that worked up over.

>Star Wars is not a D&D campaign setting. Wheel of Time is not a D&D
>campaign setting. Judge Dredd is not a D&D campaign setting. EverQuest is
>not a D&D campaign setting. Birthright is a D&D campaign setting.
>Birthright should not rewrite the core mechanics of the game. It may
>choose not to include certain magical items, spells, and monsters, but it
>should not take core classes and mechanics, then change them.

I don`t think BR is a D&D setting. It came out when 2e was the rules set,
but since 3e/D20 came out there`s little need for it to conform to D&D, and
on the cover of the conversion it says D20 not 3e. I`d argue that the
inclusion of bloodlines and blood abilities alone makes it different enough
from 3e that it qualifies as D20. BR`s system of magic and bloodline is as
different from standard D&D as that of the WoT.

I`m curious, though, is there really much point in playing in Cerilia using
so many of the 3e monsters, races and concepts that are, for the most part,
from Forgotten Realms? Seriously, why play Birthright if that`s the case?

>And honestly, most of the mechanic revisions have been of extremely poor
>quality, without any sort of balance.

Are there any particular examples you`re thinking of here? Most of the D20
products listed strike me as being much more carefully balanced than 3e is.

>

>Birthright is a setting that has a specific flavor, say like Coke. Other
>colas are out there and people like those well enough, but mixing Coke,
>Pepsi, Dr Pepper and RC into one bottle will not please anyone. They are
>all basically made from the same things, but by freely mixing them we have
>disturbed the subtle balance of ingredients of each separate product and
>turned them into one great big homogenous glass of blllaaaghhh.
>
>
>Yes, but there is a difference between preserving the flavor of a game by
>not adding certain things, and allowing the game to stagnate by not coming
>up with new material. The BRCS should not just be a rewrite of 2nd edition
>with 3rd edition rules. It should be a complete update, allowing for new
>rules, further development of the setting, and most definitely a
>progressive timeline.

None of those things (a complete update with new rules, further development
of the setting and a progressive timeline) would particularly be furthered
by the inclusion of races that didn`t exist in the original materials.

>The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting changed the way a lot of things were
>done in 2nd edition, and it is so much better for it.

:) I`ll just disagree with you on that. I find Forgotten Realms... well,
let`s just say gnomes are fine for that setting.

>I think that everyone needs to realize that 2nd edition is DEAD and any
>holdovers from its days are DEAD as well.

Many aspects of 3e are themselves holdovers from 2e. A list of them would
be too long for the listserver to handle.

>Every single game mechanic needs to be completely overhauled and
>reevaluated, without a thought for how 2nd edition did it. If 2nd edition
>handled the system so well, then it wouldn`t have died.

The thing I think being confused here is that no one is saying the 2e RULES
should be preserved in BR. Throw them out in favor of newer, more
carefully and intelligently composed rules. One should, however, maintain
the SETTING. Gnomes, as a racial template, aren`t part of the BR
setting. What races will be included are part of the setting material are
the ones that were presented in the original materials, even though
additional races were available even back in the hoary old days of 2e.

A while back I described 3e as "Forgotten Realms D20" and a couple of
people asked me for more of an explanation of that--which I never got
around to, I`m afraid. Fortunately, most of this thread could be used to
exemplify the problem. Like the little green circles nested among the red
ones that form the numeral "6" in a test for color blindness you either see
it or you don`t. It may be impossible to explain what the difference is
between the green dots and the red ones to a person who doesn`t see them.
The effects of FR on 3e may be similarly impossible to describe since so
much of it depends on having the requisite POV. Most of the folks with
whom I`ve discussed this issue have found it pretty self-evident, but it
appears the opposite perspective is equally obvious to others. In any case,
the thing to keep in mind is that the more a conversion looks like
Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk the less it will look like Birthright.

Gary

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by geeman
Actually, the standard that was suggested was that NO gaming material
should be excluded in a core text. D&D stuff was not the guideline. Even
if it were the guideline, though... why should it be? I mean, if one wants
to play a psionic half-dragon gnome monk in Cerilia then why not a
T2000? The T2000 you could at least justify by making it an awnsheghlien....


So you could justify a construct created from technology unavailable in the setting, but not justify a psionic half-dragon gnome monk that has been brought here from FR?

Nice.


BR`s system of magic and bloodline is as different from standard D&D as that of the WoT.

Birthright uses the same exact Vancian-style fire-and-forget magic system that D&D does. It has levels 0-9. It has divine and arcane magic. It has the same schools of magic. It uses the same mechanics. The only thing different is the inclusion of bloodline.


Are there any particular examples you`re thinking of here? Most of the D20
products listed strike me as being much more carefully balanced than 3e is.

Bloodline. A system using two methods of "measuring" your bloodline strength, one of which has no bearing on the other, and vice versa. I could have a bloodline of 45, but be considered a scion of a minor bloodline, while my friend could have a bloodline of 15, but be considered the scion of a major bloodline. What is the point of having the score if it has no bearing on the strength of the bloodline?

Races. The elves are a bit overpowered with their Nature Stride and their favored class, but can be fixed up easily. Halflings need some adjusting, as they gain three 1st-level spell-like abilities AT WILL on top of the PHB halfling traits.


:) I`ll just disagree with you on that. I find Forgotten Realms... well,
let`s just say gnomes are fine for that setting.

You think 2nd Edition FR was better than 3rd Edition FR? I find the new books infinitely better in layout, writing, mechanics and art.


The thing I think being confused here is that no one is saying the 2e RULES
should be preserved in BR. Throw them out in favor of newer, more
carefully and intelligently composed rules. One should, however, maintain
the SETTING. Gnomes, as a racial template, aren`t part of the BR
setting. What races will be included are part of the setting material are
the ones that were presented in the original materials, even though
additional races were available even back in the hoary old days of 2e.

Agreed, except for the gnomes... but that's just me.


A while back I described 3e as "Forgotten Realms D20" and a couple of
people asked me for more of an explanation of that--which I never got
around to, I`m afraid. Fortunately, most of this thread could be used to
exemplify the problem. Like the little green circles nested among the red
ones that form the numeral "6" in a test for color blindness you either see
it or you don`t. It may be impossible to explain what the difference is
between the green dots and the red ones to a person who doesn`t see them.
The effects of FR on 3e may be similarly impossible to describe since so
much of it depends on having the requisite POV. Most of the folks with
whom I`ve discussed this issue have found it pretty self-evident, but it
appears the opposite perspective is equally obvious to others. In any case,
the thing to keep in mind is that the more a conversion looks like
Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk the less it will look like Birthright.

Well, Forgotten Realms has influenced D&D the most because it is the most popular campaign setting for the game.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 1:51 AM


> In any case, the thing to keep in mind is that the more a conversion
> looks like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk the less it will look like
> Birthright.

FR does look like a foreign country. Some things are instantly familiar.
Feats like Silver Palm or Woodsman fit right into a Brecht or Rjurik list of
feats. Much more strikes the Cerilain visitor as strange and exotic. Many
on this forum (I`ve adopted the word forum as a nod to both those who read
the list and the boards without drawing attention to either) have different
visions of Cerilia, but in general I can see what they have emphasized or
drawn out of the same setting I am using. It doesn`t look foriegn, but more
like a different neighborhood of the same city. Different yes, but familiar
as well.

Aside from a common body of shared knowledge ( we all know that Roesone is
not a dragon, that Avanil is not a pirate ship, and that Masela is not king
of the planetouched drow monks) we mostly have a reasonably similar sense of
the setting. Discussions of the setting itself is where there is the
greatest intersubjectivity (at least apparently). Mechanics questons
involve more unspoken assumptions than do setting discussions, and talk
about other influences is full of conflicting subjective misinterpretations.
Whatever a new BRCS produces in its final form needs to retain that familar
sense that we all share as a standard from which we all immediatly begin to
depart as we cook up our campaigns homestyle.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 2:56 AM


> Well, Forgotten Realms has influenced D&D the most because it is
> the most popular campaign setting for the game.

Hence the desire among some to assert that BR is not D&D, but d20. Some
wish to flee FR like the creeping Shadow of Azrai, others just want to keep
them seperate. A fairly broad consensus of posters consider its sporting to
disrespect FR.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[AnakinMiller]

> So you could justify a construct created from technology unavailable in
the setting, but not justify a psionic half-dragon gnome monk that has been
brought here from FR?
>
> Nice.

I believe the point was that the concept was more possible in this setting
than the Psionic/Monk Half Dragon/Gnome.

In place of liquid metal and computer chips you could have the curse of an
ancient dead god flowing in your veins causing your body to warp and change
into new never before seen forms.

>
BR`s system of magic and bloodline is as different from standard
D&D as that of the WoT.
>
> Birthright uses the same exact Vancian-style fire-and-forget magic system
that D&D does. It has levels 0-9. It has divine and arcane magic. It has the
same schools of magic. It uses the same mechanics. The only thing different
is the inclusion of bloodline.

Not so. In this world humans can not tap the magical power of the world and
are limited in that they can only cast 0-9 in Divination and Illusion (I
believe, been awhile since I read over the Magician). Now elves on the
other hand do not have this draw back. They have a bond with the world and
they can tap the force unaided. Now certain humans whose ancestors marched
to war against the army of evil 1,500 years ago and lived through the death
of every major human god can now tap the full potential of the magical force
of the world. This is because their ancestors where imbued with the energy
of slain gods and where elevated to a semidivine level.

Blooded Priests and Wizards can also cast realm magic which is not in
standard D&D.

Seems that the mechanics are slightly different than the run of the mill
D&D.

> You think 2nd Edition FR was better than 3rd Edition FR? I find the new
books infinitely better in layout, writing, mechanics and art.

I think that FR`s just needs to be nuked and wiped off the face of Role
Playing. The setting is a horrid hodge podge of crap. There are uber level
characters on every corner, demigods walking the city streets (and also
teleporting to modern day earth to eat ice cream and chat before bed.) The
2e was the lesser of two evils. I don`t even want to get started on that
new Portals all over Faerun BS.

The only thing good about 3e FR is the eyecandy. The books are very
pleasing to look at. (Well at first glance any ways.)

> Agreed, except for the gnomes... but that`s just me.

Gnomes are not a part of BR. They never where apart of the campaign. They
where an early idea thrown out during the initial brainstorming that occured
when the product was first being designed. They got axed and where not
included in the products.

I remember Rich (I believe, its been a few years) talking about another idea
that never saw the light of print. There was gonna be an hierl to the roele
line with a true bloodline over in one of the former colonies across the sea
of storms. That NPC was gonna be a plot arch in that he/she would return to
anuire to claim the throne and be the thorn in the side of the PCs. That
was never published. It got the axe. Should we include that also? Many
ideas are kicked around during intial brain storming. That doesn`t make
them the gospel of the campaign.

> Well, Forgotten Realms has influenced D&D the most because it is the most
popular campaign setting for the game.

Just because the FR BS sells, does not mean every campaign world should
follow its outline. If ever world had every possible combination and option
like Faerun then what is the point of playing in something besides Faerun?
Birthright is a *restrictive* *unique* campaign setting and it should remain
that way. I only play/DM in two published campaign settings Dark Sun and
Birthright. Both are alien and different from the FR experience, but that
difference is why I enjoy them.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Athos69]

For the people who are proponents of including races that did not exist in the original Birthright setting:

The object of this is a conversion of the existing rules set, not to re-write the campaign setting into a brand new creature.

If we cannot stay true to the visions and intent of the original authors of the setting, then what in Azrai's name are we doing here? We have no right to change the look and feel of the campaign.

If some people cannot see this, then maybe they shuld wait until everything is done here, borrow from every source they want to and create their own campaign setting, because it certainly won't be BR as envisioned by the original authors.

-Mike Dowd

[Forsaken]

Originally posted by Athos69


For the people who are proponents of including races that did not exist in the original Birthright setting:

The object of this is a conversion of the existing rules set, not to re-write the campaign setting into a brand new creature.

If we cannot stay true to the visions and intent of the original authors of the setting, then what in Azrai's name are we doing here? We have no right to change the look and feel of the campaign.

If some people cannot see this, then maybe they shuld wait until everything is done here, borrow from every source they want to and create their own campaign setting, because it certainly won't be BR as envisioned by the original authors.

-Mike Dowd

I agree!

[geeman]

At 09:56 AM 3/8/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>So you could justify a construct created from technology unavailable in
>the setting, but not justify a psionic half-dragon gnome monk that has
>been brought here from FR?

The original statement was that one could justify the T2000 by making in an
awnsheghlien, which is part of the BR setting. A psionic half-dragon gnome
monk as an awnsheghlien I suppose would be equally viable (perhaps he could
be called The Lizard Thing) and in keeping with the themes of the
setting. Including such character templates in a main document (without
going the bloodtrait route) would not be.

>
BR`s system of magic and bloodline is as different from standard
>D&D as that of the WoT.
>
>Birthright uses the same exact Vancian-style fire-and-forget magic system
>that D&D does. It has levels 0-9. It has divine and arcane magic. It has
>the same schools of magic. It uses the same mechanics. The only thing
>different is the inclusion of bloodline.

First of all, I don`t think one can discount that difference as
insignificant. The inclusion of bloodline changes many aspects of the base
character classes in ways I won`t list since I`m sure everyone is
familiar. It also creates a new character class. If you take a look at
the differences between 1e and 2e you`ll see fewer changes in the system
than the difference between 2e and BR. That`s enough to differentiate the
setting from X edition, and make it a D20 product.

However, if you`ll note that I didn`t say "spellcasting" I said the "system
of magic and bloodline" which is a broader subject area than the manner in
which spells are cast in D&D. In addition to the changes to character
classes created by bloodline there`s the influence of BR`s magic system on
the number of magic items available in the campaign world, and how those
items are created. In the original 2e BR the system for creating magic
items (using the high-level Permanency spell) precluded their creation by
the majority of arcane spellcasters, which was factored into many aspects
of the setting. In D&D if I said that magic dominates any aspect of the
game I would not be overstating the case. That was the case in 2e as well
in 3e. Yet magic did not dominate the game in BR. The way magic item
creation works in 3e, however, can and does change that, to the detriment
of one of the core themes ("magic items are rare") of the setting.

All that is at the adventure/character level. You also have to consider
the magic system of the campaign as a whole, and when you do there is a
whole new scale of magic in BR using sources and realm magic that is
unrepresented in any other campaign world. All told the magic system of BR
has significant differences from 3e.

>
:) I`ll just disagree with you on that. I find Forgotten
>Realms... well, let`s just say gnomes are fine for that setting.
>
>You think 2nd Edition FR was better than 3rd Edition FR? I find the new
>books infinitely better in layout, writing, mechanics and art.

I generally try not to bash a product, but since you asked, no, I don`t
think 2e FR was better than 3e FR. I think their both cruddy. I suppose
there`s a variable rate of cruddiness that should be taken into
consideration--but it`s substantially less than infinite. On the Richtor
scale of crud where 2e FR was a sustained, city-levelling 8.0 that leaves
one shivering and moaning "Why, why, why?", 3e FR is maybe a 6.5. For the
sake of decorum I`ll not say what I think the F in FR _really_ stands
for... but the R is "ridiculous." ;)

>Well, Forgotten Realms has influenced D&D the most because it is the most
>popular campaign setting for the game.

No argument there. The question, though, is whether or not that means BR
should emulate FR. My opinion is that at most an update of the BR setting
should emulate 3e FR about as much as 2e BR did 2e FR. It wold make more
sense for it to be even more different from that setting now, though,
because part of the nature of the 3e rules is that they are more versatile,
so why emulate an existing campaign setting?

Gary

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>>Birthright uses the same exact Vancian-style fire-and-forget magic
system that D&D does. It has levels 0-9. It has divine and arcane magic. It
has the same schools of magic. It uses the same mechanics. The only thing
different is the inclusion of bloodline.



Funny, 1st and 2nd Ed AD&D meet those same criteria, does that mean that
they are also D&D (d20 Fantasy)? I would say that WoT is closer to D&D (d20
Fantasy) than 1st Edition but that may just be me. You have put forth
several critera but they all seem to say that you want BR to be GH & FR. You
indicate that you want advancement BUT only into 3E (GH & FR) products,
dismissing prety much everything else as "not D&D." If that is not your
position, please clarify. It seems like several folks have come to the same
conclusion.

For the record - I did not indicate a Terminator as an Awns - though it does
sound like one in the Blood Enemies source book. The point was that you
"could" put anything into BR if you wanted. I used an extreme example to
illustrate that at some point a line needs to be drawn and the best-most
agreeable place for that is "what was included in the previous supplements."
Homegames can include the Psionic/Monk/1/2
Gnome/1/2Dragon/celestial/Terminator if they want - but people need not pimp
their home game preferences onto the setting. The game does need to grow but
not through dilution.

Eosin

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman

:) I`ll just disagree with you on that. I find Forgotten Realms... well, let`s just say gnomes are fine for that setting.
Why everybody hates gnomes? They are sweet little creatures with a little bit toooooo big noses... There is nothing to hate about them.

[Elrostar]

It's not question of hating gnomes. Well, at least not for me. It's a case of them not being part of the setting. I don't see where they fit in, basically. The other races all seem to have some natural purpose in the setting, and fit into it. I don't how one would seamlessly integrate gnomes into the setting.

It is of course possible to bring anything you want into any campaign. I've played in a campaign where the DM decided to bring in Mecha Armor, Drow, Dragons galore, flying castles, and orientals from across the ocean. I felt that this diluted the setting, making it more like any other magically overpowered setting, such as FR.

One thing I find refreshing about BR is the fact that different races are truly different, and alien. Halflings aren't simply chubby little happy humans who like food, elves are humans with pointy ears, and dwarves aren't just grumpy bearded axe-wielding humans.

Another important thing is that it does not have everything. A conscious decision was to not include all possibilities as regards races, monsters, etc. And that's what I feel is Birthright's greatest strength. It's realising that you don't have to have everything there to make a campaign interesting and exciting. Furthermore, it introduces some new ideas which make the setting even more distinctive and intriguing. FR's problem (as I see it) is that it has to include every possible aspect of D&D. As in, why have one type of elf if you can have twenty. Why have only a few cultures when you can include every possible thing imaginable, and then a few extras. It was a campaign world that started out as Ed Green's gaming world, and I think that it had a reasonable amount of interesting material in it. But then it developed into a monstrous, out of control, entity, wherein every new idea, setting, magical curiosity or whatnot, had to be incorporated. And then there's this extreme situation wherein there are powerful mages on every street corner, every tavern is run by a former adventurer and so on.

I may not have made my point as clearly as I'd hoped, but it comes down to this. The races, monsters, creatures, Gods etc. in Birthright are there because they fit. I would take exception to the idea of introducing new races for the heck of it much in the way that I would take exception to people suddenly introducing a host of new gods, for instance. Not that I'm saying I don't have issues with the BR pantheon, but that's a topic I really don't want to get into, especially in this thread.

Oh, and while we're at it. How come no-one suggested having Kendar? ;) (I'll duck and run for cover at this point)

Elrostar

[ConjurerDragon]

Elrostar wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Elrostar wrote:
> It`s not question of hating gnomes. Well, at least not for me. It`s a case of them not being part of the setting. I don`t see where they fit in, basically. The other races all seem to have some natural purpose in the setting, and fit into it. I don`t how one would seamlessly integrate gnomes into the setting.
>
Perhaps they are the race that Malvaar "protects" in his Maze ;-)
Or they are the "corrupted" halflings, that stayed in the Shadowworld
and now serve the Usurper/Cold Rider - EVIL beings... :-)

>One thing I find refreshing about BR is the fact that different races are truly different, and alien. Halflings aren`t simply chubby little happy humans who like food, elves are humans with pointy ears, and dwarves aren`t just grumpy bearded axe-wielding humans.
>
Yes, I fully agree :-) (Although you certainly meant elves AREN´T humans
with pointy ears...)

>Oh, and while we`re at it. How come no-one suggested having Kendar? ;) (I`ll duck and run for cover at this point)
>Elrostar
>
Kendar are lame - you want half-dragon/half celestial Monk-Psionist
Kendars with Minotaur ancestors :-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Azrai]

Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

> As for Cerilian gnomes, well, they -could- be added, -if- (and only if) there is consensus to revive them as a race as originally envisioned by Rich Baker. I don`t think most people are interested in that, however, because it`s not true to the original Birthright.


Why not?! What could possibly be gained in leaving that material out?
What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesireable races
within the sacred core book?

If it`s in the core materials and people don`t want in the campaign, they
won`t allow it. Simple, direct. These people can still play their game.
If people want it in their campaign, and it`s not in the book, what happens
then? What good is a game book if you purposefully leave out material
needed to play the game? All that`s really doing is making sure people play
their games the way you want it played.

Beyond space/time limitations, I can see no reason for purposefully
excluding game materials. To extend the argument to ludicrous proportions:
If I want to play a game with non-blooded adventurers, I am not extremely
hindered by the inclusion of bloodline rules within the rulebook. However,
if I wanted to play a game wherin PCs had these blood abilities and those
rules were purposefully left out to accomodate non-blooded adventuring
campaigns, that would be fairly annoying.

Personally, I hate that everytime I say "Let`s generate characters", soemone
in my gaming group takes out the DMG and wants to play a damn minotaur. I`m
thinking my first adventure is going to be about establishing a trade route
between Roesone up through Ghoere, and my foolheardy patato-chip-munching
players are trying to create characters that will eventually become a
Minotaur Monk, a dwarven Paladin of Moridin with his flying warhorse, an
elven ShadowDancer/Assassin/ArcaneArcher, and a Khinasi wizard with wands of
fireballs and scrolls of magic missiles. And of course, they all want
Healing as a blood ability.

Nevertheless, despite the aggrevation, I`m glad those options are there. I
like the idea that I can have a minotaur PC in my game, or that I can have
Minotaur Monks running around as NPCs. It just means I have to go down the
list each time: This campaign will *not* have gnomes, gnolls, minotaurs,
tieflings, half-dragon/half-vampire medusa rogue/assassins, etc.

More options are better. That`s purely it. And if these options can be
worked out within the core materials, to be as balanced and compatible with
all the core materials as possible, that`s a much better improvement than
saying, "Well, if you`re going to run your own custom game, go ahead and
makeup your own custom rules then. So there."

Now, there is still the space/time limitations. I`ve tried to say "core
materials" rather than "core book", because I don`t believe there should be
only one core book. Indeed, there`s not reason why every chapter shouldn`t
have a corresponding core supplement. Saying you want to exclude Gnolls
because you don`t want it in the main core rulebook is an argument I`ll
accept long before I`ll accept "because it`s not true to the original
Birthright".

Personally, I`d like core materials to be modular rather than comprehensive,
with a section at the end of each chapter giving guidelines on why the
particular game mechanics of that chapter were included, some ideas that
were tossed out, and recommendations for some house rules. This whole
section could also be the introduction to official supplements that would
expand on these chapters. Personally, I think a book on "Races and Cultures
of Cerelia" that was specifically divided into two parts: one on setting
source material and the other part on game mechanics that expend the
race/culture chapter would be a very desireable approach.

More options are better. And if someone wants Minotaur Monks in their game
because there`s a particular niche/story of Cerelia that they`re trying to
play out, I don`t think its fair for the core materials or their writers to
say, "You`re not being true to the original Birthright."

I argue that the entirety of any given system should *not* be agreed on when
making the core materials. Take bloodlines for an example. We can agree on
a fairly simple ability-score based bloodline system for the core books.
But a supplemental expansion I`d like to see in a book focussed purely on
bloodlines and blood abilities, would be a variety of alternate ways to
determine and use bloodlines and blood abilities in the Birthright game. A
checklist could be provided at the end of each book describing all the new
blood abiltiies, bloodline generation rules, bloodtheft mechanics,
blood-feats (for those of you into that kind of thing), and such. Then the
DM just has to go down the checklist and say, "This Southern Coast
Trade-based campaign will be using this... this... not that... this..."

We could even have a list of campaign models. For example, War-Themed,
Intrigue-Themed, Bloodline-Themed, Shadow-World-Themed,
Unite-The-Empire-Themed, Survive-Winter-Themed campaigns can all have
recommended pre-generated checklists that could easily be modified and
customized.

I strayed a bit. My point was more options are better. Include the gnoll.
But I`m not going to allow it in my game. As it is, in my game, PCs all
have to belong to the same family -- same race, same bloodline, etc.

-Lord Rahvin


I fully agree with your comment.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by geeman
Actually, the standard that was suggested was that NO gaming material
should be excluded in a core text. D&D stuff was not the guideline. Even
if it were the guideline, though... why should it be? I mean, if one wants
to play a psionic half-dragon gnome monk in Cerilia then why not a
T2000? The T2000 you could at least justify by making it an awnsheghlien....

Thats polemical nonsense.



No one (as has been claimed by Lord Rahvin) is trying to force people to
play in one way or another. If someone wanted to play Cerilian gnomes or a
T2000 there`s nothing stopping you. To be frank, very few people in the BR
community seem to be so non-ego formed as gamers that something as
innocuous as the BRCS update is going to actually dictate to them how they
are going to game, so even if that were the intent of the authors it`s
pretty futile, and not something to get all that worked up over.


The new BRCS defines the game. It IS the case, that the possibility of playing gnomes or something else is taken away. They automaticly became official non-standard, who want's to play them then?

[AnakinMiller]

> The new BRCS defines the game. It IS the case, that the possibility of
playing gnomes or something else is taken away. They automaticly became
official non-standard, who want`s to play them then?

They where never official in the first place, so what is the big deal that
they are not being added?

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[AnakinMiller]

> Why not?! What could possibly be gained in leaving that material out?
> What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesireable races
> within the sacred core book?
>
> If it`s in the core materials and people don`t want in the campaign, they
> won`t allow it. Simple, direct. These people can still play their game.
> If people want it in their campaign, and it`s not in the book, what
happens
> then? What good is a game book if you purposefully leave out material
> needed to play the game? All that`s really doing is making sure people
play
> their games the way you want it played.

I fail to see your logic. The Gnomes where never a part of cannon BR. The
only reference was the word gnome on a 2e monster table in the box set. No
where else in the entirety of the product line where they mentioned.

Hell by your reason we should add drow/gensai/psionicis/gnome/monk because,
I mean really, somewhere someone probally wants to play one and the design
team is being fascist by trying to enforce their idea that Cerilia doesn`t
have drow/gensai/psionicis/gnome/monk by leaving them out of the new d20
Atlas of Cerilia/BR d20.

If you want Gnomes add it as a house rule.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
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[A_dark]

I agree with Anakin Miller... I am bored to say more :P

A small note, since people were talking about T2000. T200 EXISTS in Cerilia ;) It is the Diabolyk, presented in the minor Awnies in the Blood Enemies book. He was petrified and shattered if memory serves, by the Gorgon's gaze, when the Diabolyk (he was an assassin) tried to kill Raesene...

Diabolyk was the ivnentor of usurpation if memory serves and also the first man to find a sielshegh gem.

[kgauck]

> As for Cerilian gnomes, well, they -could- be added, -if-
> (and only if) there is consensus to revive them as a race as
> originally envisioned by Rich Baker. I don`t think most people
> are interested in that, however, because it`s not true to the
> original Birthright.

I certainly like the idea of the gnomes proposed by RB, but I don`t see them
as a PC race any more than I see brownies, sylphs, or dryads as PC races in
BR.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Shade]

>They (or others) have said that other books are possible and some of those
>might explore humanoid characters (like Gnomes). The objection raised is why
>include things that were never in BR within the core book, to my
>understanding your reply is cause it is in GH or the FR? I can and do change
>things to make them more like the game I want to play but I do not tell
>everyone that they should use Chromatic Dragons, Bahamut and Tiamat just
>because I like them and they are part of the core setting. Let BR be itself
>and not a pale shadow of GH or FR. I can buy supplements to those worlds if
>I want, BR.net is where I get BR material.
>
>Eosin

I really agree with Eosin here. I want Birthright to stay Birthright - no
gnomes, no genasi, and no minotaurs as standard races.

If you want to play one of those as a standard race, go play FR, or let
your DM custom make a race for you. I don`t want the BRCS doc to imply that
playing one of these races is a standard choice in the setting.

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[Shade]

At 06:42 PM 3/8/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Forsaken wrote:
>
Originally posted by Athos69
>
>
> For the people who are proponents of including races that did
not exist in the original Birthright setting:
>
>The object of this is a conversion of the existing rules set, not to
re-write the campaign setting into a brand new creature.
>
>If we cannot stay true to the visions and intent of the original authors
of the setting, then what in Azrai`s name are we doing here? We have
no right to change the look and feel of the campaign.
>
>If some people cannot see this, then maybe they shuld wait until
everything is done here, borrow from every source they want to and create
their own campaign setting, because it certainly won`t be BR as envisioned
by the original authors.
>
>-Mike Dowd
>
>I agree!

Second.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 23:12, Azrai wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413

Azrai wrote:
[quote]Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

> As for Cerilian gnomes, well, they -could- be added, -if- (and only if) there is consensus to revive them as a race as originally envisioned by Rich Baker. I don`t think most people are interested in that, however, because it`s not true to the original Birthright.


Why not?! What could possibly be gained in leaving that material out?
What? Will the setting be "more pure" without these undesireable races
within the sacred core book?

yes. (to the last - which answers the earlier questions as well)

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[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, A_dark wrote:

> T2000 EXISTS in Cerilia ;) It is the Diabolyk, presented in the minor
> Awnies in the Blood Enemies book. He was petrified and shattered if
> memory serves, by the Gorgon`s gaze, when the Diabolyk (he was an
> assassin) tried to kill Raesene...

Yup!

> Diabolyk was the ivnentor of usurpation if memory serves and also the
> first man to find a sielshegh gem.

Yes, Daryn Theros was a very busy man. The info in that last sentence
comes from the Book of Magecraft; the ones he found are the tiny
("knight") Azrai gems now set in the Bridle and Spurs of Awnmaur,
currently owned by Rhuobhe Manslayer. In the sielshegh section he is also
mentioned in the entry on the Emperor`s Crown of Anuire -- he shows up,
kills the current emperor, and then the young son thereof (Shaene) takes
up the crown, and uses the blood abilities gained thereby to order the
assassin to leave. The last line in the entry is something like, "after
that, the Diabolyk feared only two things: the Gorgon, and His Imperial
Majesty Shaene Roele II in his wrath."

Another techno-gizmo mentioned in the BoM is the fax machine -- I forget
exactly what it was called (Tray of Diplomacy? Tray of Communication?),
but it allows you to instantaneously send individual sheets of paper to
any other regent who also possesses such a device.


Ryan Caveney

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[Lord Rahvin]

> I certainly like the idea of the gnomes proposed by RB, but I don`t see them
> as a PC race any more than I see brownies, sylphs, or dryads as PC races in
> BR.

I don`t personally see much difference in PC races vs NPC races.
Why not just have the most common races in BR listed in the same chapter,
with game statistics, history, cultural information, geographic affinity,
etc. For starters, every creature that has its own "realm" should probably
have its own "races" entry. (Obviously, any Awnsheigh of which there is
only one in all of Cerelia would not qualify as a common "race", but some of
their lesser spawn might.)

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[geeman]

At 01:17 PM 3/9/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:

>
Originally posted by geeman
>Actually, the standard that was suggested was that NO gaming material
>should be excluded in a core text. D&D stuff was not the guideline. Even
>if it were the guideline, though... why should it be? I mean, if one wants
>to play a psionic half-dragon gnome monk in Cerilia then why not a
>T2000? The T2000 you could at least justify by making it an
>awnsheghlien....
>
>Thats polemical nonsense.

I don`t think so. D&D material is limited to the core texts and the core
campaign settings. I don`t think the standard should be "any gaming
material" because that`s too broad a scope. A more reasonable standard
would be any gaming material relevant to the setting. That said, any
gaming material relevant to the setting could come from any source. If Car
Wars has a good mechanic for fighting large scale combat that could be used
to do battles featuring troops on chariots and one can use it in a system
of battle resolution then I say use it. If something comes from WoT (not a
D&D setting) and it follows the BR themes then it should be incorporated.

>

>If someone wanted to play Cerilian gnomes or a
>T2000 there`s nothing stopping you. To be frank, very few people in the BR
>community seem to be so non-ego formed as gamers that something as
>innocuous as the BRCS update is going to actually dictate to them how they
>are going to game, so even if that were the intent of the authors it`s
>pretty futile, and not something to get all that worked up over.
>
>
>The new BRCS defines the game. It IS the case, that the possibility of
>playing gnomes or something else is taken away. They automaticly became
>official non-standard, who want`s to play them then?

Is it really going to stop anyone who actually wants to play a template
that doesn`t exist in the BR materials? It`s hard to see why someone who`d
seen information in another source and wanted to include it BR would be
flummoxed by not having it repeated in the BRCS.

Maybe the converse of the situation would serve to illustrate the issue a
little better. Should BR character classes and templates be used in
FR? Certain aspects of the BR setting could certainly be used in other
campaign worlds. A domain level of play, for instance, is perfectly apt
for just about any setting. It might require some tweaking in order to fit
into another campaign world, but it`s certainly viable. When it comes to
the specifics of templates and character classes it`s quite a different
story. We have a magician class that could be used in any campaign--if one
wanted to ignore all the campaign specific issues surrounding the need or
existence of that class--so why not `port it into Zhentrim Keep? Surely
awnsheghlien are interesting and useful characters. Why shouldn`t they
exist in Dark Sun? Halflings in other settings should be able to phase
into and out of some sort of Shadow Plane, right? They can in BR. If you
went on the lists for any of those campaign settings and said you wanted to
use BR templates and information in that world, and suggest that they,
therefore, should include such material in any fan created update material
that they are working for the sake of accommodating what amount to highly
individual choices in what to include in campaign material I`m sure you`d
get a very similar response.

Gary

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by geeman
I don`t think so. D&D material is limited to the core texts and the core
campaign settings. I don`t think the standard should be "any gaming
material" because that`s too broad a scope. A more reasonable standard
would be any gaming material relevant to the setting. That said, any
gaming material relevant to the setting could come from any source. If Car
Wars has a good mechanic for fighting large scale combat that could be used
to do battles featuring troops on chariots and one can use it in a system
of battle resolution then I say use it. If something comes from WoT (not a
D&D setting) and it follows the BR themes then it should be incorporated.

It should be appropriate to the setting, yes, but something should be immediately discounted just because it wasn't in the setting originally. People keep stating that they don't want FR stuff in the setting, but orogs were created in the FR well before BR was a twinkle in anyone's eye, but I don't see complaints about that.

I think a variety of material should be plundered for new rules and ideas.


Is it really going to stop anyone who actually wants to play a template
that doesn`t exist in the BR materials? It`s hard to see why someone who`d
seen information in another source and wanted to include it BR would be
flummoxed by not having it repeated in the BRCS.

Yes, actually. So many DMs will say "That's not a standard race. No, you can't play it." I know I've played with many DMs who have been like that, wanting things to be normal, generic and cliched as opposed to letting the players try something new.


Maybe the converse of the situation would serve to illustrate the issue a
little better. Should BR character classes and templates be used in
FR? Certain aspects of the BR setting could certainly be used in other
campaign worlds. A domain level of play, for instance, is perfectly apt
for just about any setting. It might require some tweaking in order to fit
into another campaign world, but it`s certainly viable. When it comes to
the specifics of templates and character classes it`s quite a different
story. We have a magician class that could be used in any campaign--if one
wanted to ignore all the campaign specific issues surrounding the need or
existence of that class--so why not `port it into Zhentrim Keep?

You could, but it is different than including FR stuff in BR. FR is a magic rich setting, in which almost any class, race, or monster can find a niche and work within the setting. BR is a little more limited than that.


Surely awnsheghlien are interesting and useful characters. Why shouldn`t they
exist in Dark Sun?

They do... in a way. They're called dragons in that setting, and they are just are much scarier than the Gorgon and his buddies.


Halflings in other settings should be able to phase into and out of some sort of Shadow Plane, right? They can in BR.

Well, since the Shadow Plane can connect alternate cosmologies together, why the hell not? A Cerilian halfling could wander through the Shadow Plane and end up in the Forgotten Realms.


If you went on the lists for any of those campaign settings and said you wanted to use BR templates and information in that world, and suggest that they, therefore, should include such material in any fan created update material that they are working for the sake of accommodating what amount to highly individual choices in what to include in campaign material I`m sure you`d get a very similar response.

If they fit, then I don't see a problem with it. Some things, like magic, wouldn't fit some settings (like Dark Sun), as it is a low-magic psionic rich world.

[AnakinMiller]

> It should be appropriate to the setting, yes, but something should be
immediately discounted just because it wasn`t in the setting originally.
People keep stating that they don`t want FR stuff in the setting, but orogs
were created in the FR well before BR was a twinkle in anyone`s eye, but I
don`t see complaints about that.
>

Ok by using your own logic here lets see how the different ideas that have
been suggested.

Monks - Inappropiate to the setting due to the total lack of cultures to
spawn the class. Show me 1 culture in Cerilia that could produce the class
as it stands in the PHB.

Gnomes - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. If Rich Baker`s original
idea of Fey like creatures where added then it should be added as a Fey
Creature in the Monster Appendix. These are no more viable as PC race than
Dryads or Pixies.

Minortaurs - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. Tell me exactly
where you think a Minotaur could rise to power as a regent and where there
is a large enough population of other minotaurs for him to govern.

Gensai - Birthright was notoriously isolate from the other planes. While a
few portals to other plains exist, you should be able to count the entire
number on one hand. There is not enough contact with the Planars to justify
Gensai as a Player Character Race.

Half Dragons - The Dragons of Cerilia are a ancient and unique breed of
Wyrms that do not compare to the "standard flavors of Gem, Chromatic and
Metal Wyrms. They do not take human form on a regular basis and do not
breed with the inferior humans. That along with the fact that there are
only a dozen known on the world should be more than enough justification to
ban half dragons.

Drow - The Elven race of this world is a unique race. There are no
subraces. Add to the mix the facts that they are Aethiest and the fact that
the elves never had the great war that drove the evil members of the race
underground is justification that there are no drow on this world.

> I think a variety of material should be plundered for new rules and ideas.

But the ideas that work in other campaign worlds do not work for Birthright.
If you want to add items that break the world concept then by almeans do it
in your own homebrewed world, but do not do it in the official d20 product.

> Yes, actually. So many DMs will say "That`s not a standard race. No, you
can`t play it." I know I`ve played with many DMs who have been like that,
wanting things to be normal, generic and cliched as opposed to letting the
players try something new.

Then the problem seems to reside in your DM and not the material. If you
can not convince your DM that the concept is sound enough to work in his
world then you will never be able to play it. Find a new DM if you simply
must play such off the wall concepts.

> You could, but it is different than including FR stuff in BR. FR is a
magic rich setting, in which almost any class, race, or monster can find a
niche and work within the setting. BR is a little more limited than that.

That is my entire argument. Many items do work well in FRs. Those items DO
NOT work in Birthright due to the completely opposite natures of the
Campaigns.

> They do... in a way. They`re called dragons in that setting, and they are
just are much scarier than the Gorgon and his buddies.

Dragons and Awnsheilign are completely different creatures. Dragons are
master defilers and psionics who combine the Way and Magic to transform
themselves into advance beings. Awn... are creatures who bear the divine
essence of an ancient god of evil. That essence is what mutates their
bodies and minds.

> If they fit, then I don`t see a problem with it. Some things, like magic,
wouldn`t fit some settings (like Dark Sun), as it is a low-magic psionic
rich world.

But the stuff you want to add to Birthright does not fit with the world.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Birthright-L]

Drow:

No drow in Cerilia, but there could be something quite like it. Shadowworld
halflings. IMC, these are like the drow "template" (everything that separate
drow from elves), but applied to halflings instead. Deadly, abd cute, too!

/Carl


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[Mourn]

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
Ok by using your own logic here lets see how the different ideas that have
been suggested.


Yes, and I'll add my input, as well.


Monks - Inappropiate to the setting due to the total lack of cultures to
spawn the class. Show me 1 culture in Cerilia that could produce the class
as it stands in the PHB.

I can't. I never suggested that the monk be added. I just suggested different ways of looking at things.


Gnomes - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. If Rich Baker`s original
idea of Fey like creatures where added then it should be added as a Fey
Creature in the Monster Appendix. These are no more viable as PC race than
Dryads or Pixies.

I support the addition of this material, and my write up on it had it written out as a race. It could easily be made a 1-HD monster in the book.


Minortaurs - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. Tell me exactly
where you think a Minotaur could rise to power as a regent and where there
is a large enough population of other minotaurs for him to govern.

I never said anything about minotaurs, either. I don't think they are appropriate as a PC race, unless the game is a monster game.


Gensai - Birthright was notoriously isolate from the other planes. While a
few portals to other plains exist, you should be able to count the entire
number on one hand. There is not enough contact with the Planars to justify
Gensai as a Player Character Race.

Scions of true bloodlines derived from elemental gods. This was offered elsewhere, and I agree with an idea like this. Tieflings could be of the blood of Azrai, corrupted by years and years of inbreeding.


Half Dragons - The Dragons of Cerilia are a ancient and unique breed of
Wyrms that do not compare to the "standard flavors of Gem, Chromatic and
Metal Wyrms. They do not take human form on a regular basis and do not
breed with the inferior humans. That along with the fact that there are
only a dozen known on the world should be more than enough justification to
ban half dragons.

Again, I never said a thing about half-dragons. I don't agree with their use as a PC, and I don't usually apply the template to any humanoid creatures. I usually apply it to various monsters, to make them a bit more frightening.


Drow - The Elven race of this world is a unique race. There are no
subraces. Add to the mix the facts that they are Aethiest and the fact that
the elves never had the great war that drove the evil members of the race
underground is justification that there are no drow on this world.

Never said a thing about drow, but I'll throw in a comment. How about mention of a group of ancient elven scions, whose bloodline is derived from Azrai. Dwelling deep in the Shadow World, these elves have been slowly warped by the nature of the world and their blood until they are a dark mirror to the ancient kin.


But the ideas that work in other campaign worlds do not work for Birthright.
If you want to add items that break the world concept then by almeans do it
in your own homebrewed world, but do not do it in the official d20 product.

How does the use of regional feats and skills (from Wheel of Time) not work for Birthright?


But the stuff you want to add to Birthright does not fit with the world.

How does any of the things that I, personally, proposed do not fit in Birthright?

[geeman]

At 02:42 AM 3/12/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>How does any of the things that I, personally, proposed do not fit in
>Birthright?

Maybe you could remind us what those things were? The rest of the things
described have been proposed as things that _should_ appear on a BR update.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 10:04 PM 3/11/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>
Is it really going to stop anyone who actually wants to play a template
>that doesn`t exist in the BR materials? It`s hard to see why someone who`d
>seen information in another source and wanted to include it BR would be
>flummoxed by not having it repeated in the BRCS.
>
>Yes, actually. So many DMs will say "That`s not a standard race. No, you
>can`t play it." I know I`ve played with many DMs who have been like
>that, wanting things to be normal, generic and cliched as opposed to
>letting the players try something new.

Isn`t that always the case, though, regardless of what gets put into a
campaign setting text? In fact, what individual DMs do in picking one
particular setting over another is part of his role as the guy who runs the
game. With the same ease with which a DM might include non-standard races
he could exclude standard ones. I`ve run campaigns in which I said "no
humans" or "no elves" despite their existence in just about any core
campaign text. It`s just as easy for the DM to include non-standard PC
races. That players can`t over-rule the DM`s choices has nothing to do
with the issue at hand, which is that non-standard races should not be
included in a core text. The DM, after all, is the guy who chooses the
campaign setting in the first place. Part of that decision is what races
will be PC and NPC. What`s being suggested (that many more non-BR races
should be included in the core text) could very easily be interpreted as an
attempt to undermine the decision of the DM to play a BR campaign in the
first place.

>
Maybe the converse of the situation would serve to illustrate the
>issue a
>little better. Should BR character classes and templates be used in
>FR? Certain aspects of the BR setting could certainly be used in other
>campaign worlds. A domain level of play, for instance, is perfectly apt
>for just about any setting. It might require some tweaking in order to fit
>into another campaign world, but it`s certainly viable. When it comes to
>the specifics of templates and character classes it`s quite a different
>story. We have a magician class that could be used in any campaign--if one
>wanted to ignore all the campaign specific issues surrounding the need or
>existence of that class--so why not `port it into Zhentrim Keep?
>
>You could, but it is different than including FR stuff in BR. FR is a
>magic rich setting, in which almost any class, race, or monster can find a
>niche and work within the setting. BR is a little more limited than that.

That`s exactly the point. Many of the paradigms from FR don`t apply to BR
just as many FR things (like templates and various classes) don`t belong in
BR. Magic rich v magic poor is just one of the BR thematic differences
from FR. Racial templates in which races have cultural biases that are
much more dramatic than FR is also an important aspect of the BR
setting. Where themes of the settings don`t conflict then there`s some
room to allow for crossover material, as in the existence of a domain level
of play in FR or guidelines for a college that focuses on the study of
magic for the CoS in the Imperial city. Even in such cases, however, you
wouldn`t want to just take things straight from that setting and plop them
right into the other.

>
Surely awnsheghlien are interesting and useful characters. Why
>shouldn`t they
>exist in Dark Sun?
>
>They do... in a way. They`re called dragons in that setting, and they are
>just are much scarier than the Gorgon and his buddies.

Hm. I think DS dragons have significant differences from BR`s
awnsheghlien. Sure, there`s a transformative aspect, and there`s certainly
a progression to god-like power (though that need not really be the case
for awnsheghlien) but the assertion that the existence of DS dragons means
that awnsheghlien can and should be used in that setting? I don`t buy that.

Gary

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[Lord Rahvin]

>
Gnomes - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. If Rich Baker`s original
> idea of Fey like creatures where added then it should be added as a Fey
> Creature in the Monster Appendix. These are no more viable as PC race than
> Dryads or Pixies.

I don`t see the difference in distiniguishing a PC race from an NPC race.


> I support the addition of this material, and my write up on it had it written out as a race. It could easily be made a 1-HD monster in the book.

Do both. Elves are written up as 1HD monsters in the MM. So are gnomes,
for that matter. They are also listed with useful player information in the
Player`s Handbook.

>
Minortaurs - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. Tell me exactly
> where you think a Minotaur could rise to power as a regent and where there
> is a large enough population of other minotaurs for him to govern.
>
> I never said anything about minotaurs, either. I don`t think they are appropriate as a PC race, unless the game is a monster game.

I`ve had a Vos Paladin in one of my games that was more intrusive to the
overall flavor and feel of my Anuirean campaign than any minotaur would have
been. In fact, I could easily see Minotaurs filling the same niche of the
Vos.

In my interpretation of the materials, I imagine Ettins to be very populous
in the Northern Highlands. Ettins, perhaps, could do with an entry on game
statistics for PCs/NPCs along with geography and other information commonly
listed for "PC races".

----

Why not simply remove the races chapter altogether, and just have a section
of the book or a whole seperate book be called Creatures of Birthright or
something? Then the races chapter could just be recommendations on various
races that may or may not be appropriate for different types of campaigns or
from different geographic areas or even from different time periods.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Azrai]

I can again only support Lord Rahvin's opinion.

I still don't understand why people make differences between PC and NPC races. It's a matter of the adventure design.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:18 AM

> I still don`t understand why people make differences between
> PC and NPC races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.

Some races are much easier to run in the game than others without producing
wierd results. The races that don`t beg extra questions about inter-species
coorperation, taking over existing realms, or use of the classes are PC
races becasue players are encouraged to use these races. Other races
require additional DM and player effort to explain and make sense of the
role of these kinds of characters. So, typically, most examples of such
characters will be of the non-player kind. We have existing ideas about how
such monsterous races can be used as PC`s, so there is no firm barrier
against pixie landed regents or minatour attendees of the College of
Sorcery.

Just the existence of Khinasi paladins or Brecht guilders in Anuire require
some explanation to justify their existence. Going further to make some
regents or important characters would require more discussion of what is
possible and how it would be recieved by the the people and other forces
within Cerilia.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

>Drow:
>No drow in Cerilia, but there could be something quite like it. Shadowworld
>halflings. IMC, these are like the drow "template" (everything that separate
>drow from elves), but applied to halflings instead. Deadly, abd cute, too!
>/Carl
>
Do put an end to the drow discussion I suggest to those that want to
play an evil underground race driven underground in a great war to play
an Orog (that is ancient elvish for drow but don´t tell anyone ;-))
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 21:18, Azrai wrote:

Azrai wrote:
I can again only support Lord Rahvin`s opinion.

I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC
races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.


Originally, D&D and AD&D were deliberately designed to be human-centric,
even the allowed extra races were demi-human rather than humanoid. There
a couple of articles in the early Dragon magazines by Gygax on why he
chose to set it up like that. And, I must admit I`ve never seen any
argument that has been made to refute the position. (But does not mean
that other positions in other games are not viable)

As 3e does not place such a design view on players, it would be entirely
appropriate to allow other races as PCs in a 3e BR, as long as you don`t
introduce races that were not in the setting. e.g. a half-dragon has
never existed in BR, but elves and orogs do.

It has always (even in 1e and 2e) been possible to play non-standard
races, e.g. one of the original Greyhawk players had his character
reincarnated as a lizardman. However, from a role-playing position this
is not the same as playing a lizardman character, as the character (and
player) do not have to actually think and act from a lizardman`s
perspective. From a roleplaying viewpoint, playing non-human races
should represent the highest challenge a player could attempt, and
success at it is so very subjective. However, 3e does not promote
roleplaying - it concentrates on adventure gaming - and the use of
non-human races matters far less.

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[Shade]

>
Is it really going to stop anyone who actually wants to play a
template
>that doesn`t exist in the BR materials? It`s hard to see why someone who`d
>seen information in another source and wanted to include it BR would be
>flummoxed by not having it repeated in the BRCS.
>
>Yes, actually. So many DMs will say "That`s not a standard race. No, you
can`t play it." I know I`ve played with many DMs who have been like
that, wanting things to be normal, generic and cliched as opposed to
letting the players try something new.

Mourn, in that case, where would you draw the line? What makes gnolls ok
but trolls unacceptable? How about half-dragons or genasi? I don`t think
it`s our responsibility to include every possible race a player might want
to use.

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[Shade]

>How does any of the things that I, personally, proposed do not fit in
Birthright?

It`s not that they don`t fit, necessarily. The other thing you have to
consider is how important they are. Just because a Water Genasi with
Masela`s bloodline is POSSIBLE and BELIEVABLE doesn`t mean it should have a
section devoted to it in Chapter 2.

That sort of thing is appropriate for DMs to rule on in their own games, IMO.

...As a compromise, we could have a very small section at the end of the
races section, that would read like the section on PrCs, that details which
ones are appropriate for which culture (duelist ok in Brechtur, Knight
Protector in Anuire).

It could read something like this:

"At the DMs option, players may choose to play a nonstandard race. By
default such characters are *extremely* rare in Cerilia, possibly even
unique. The following races might be appropriate for Cerilian PCs under
certain circumstances:

Genasi (true bloodline of Anduiras, Reynir, Basaia or Masela);
Tiefling (minor awnsheghlien);
Half-dragon (the PC is a descendant of one of Cerilia`s remaining true
dragons).
etc."

I`m not saying I think this should be done, but if we end up at an impasse,
this might be a workable compromise solution.

I`m still in favor of leaving all this kind of stuff out, and letting
individual DMs come up with the justification for a PC minotaur or genasi.

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[Shade]

At 11:18 AM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Azrai wrote:
> I can again only support Lord Rahvin`s opinion.
>
>I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC
races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.

And I don`t understand why you don`t understand. :)

We`ve been arguing in circles for some time, this one may come down to a
vote.

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[A_dark]

If we are going to put a note about creatures that might be unique and at teh Dm's discretion blah blah

then we should add the ENTIRE Monster manual, because by this logic, "If I wanted to play a Black Pudding, the rulebook should allow me to do so"

Can't you see the futility and pointlessness of this?

[Eosin the Red]

> Azrai wrote:
>I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.


No. It is a matter of setting. If you can understand that a setting is different from a mass of rules you will be much closer. d20 is rules. Birthright is a setting. Some rules do not belong in some settings. No ray guns in Birthright.

Eosin

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Shade
Mourn, in that case, where would you draw the line? What makes gnolls ok
but trolls unacceptable? How about half-dragons or genasi? I don`t think
it`s our responsibility to include every possible race a player might want
to use.

Where do I draw the line? With low-ECL races. If I'm going to run a 3rd-level game, I'm usually not opposed to a +1 or +2 ECL race.

And I don't think it is, either. I think everything should be looked at and considered, is all. I don't use a number of the monsters and prestige classes that Wizards publishes, but I always consider them.


It`s not that they don`t fit, necessarily. The other thing you have to
consider is how important they are. Just because a Water Genasi with
Masela`s bloodline is POSSIBLE and BELIEVABLE doesn`t mean it should have a
section devoted to it in Chapter 2.

Why not include a small blurb? It would take up a few paragraphs for each one, with no text on culture, since they simply exist in human culture. Or, better yet, why even write them up in the race section? Why not put them with blood abilities, as an example Bloodtrait for Masela's bloodline?


...As a compromise, we could have a very small section at the end of the
races section, that would read like the section on PrCs, that details which
ones are appropriate for which culture (duelist ok in Brechtur, Knight
Protector in Anuire).

That's always nice. A lot of people out there own the splatbooks, so why not help them get use out of it?



It could read something like this:

"At the DMs option, players may choose to play a nonstandard race. By
default such characters are *extremely* rare in Cerilia, possibly even
unique. The following races might be appropriate for Cerilian PCs under
certain circumstances:

Genasi (true bloodline of Anduiras, Reynir, Basaia or Masela);
Tiefling (minor awnsheghlien);
Half-dragon (the PC is a descendant of one of Cerilia`s remaining true
dragons).
etc."


With a little more fleshing out, that would work perfectly.


I`m not saying I think this should be done, but if we end up at an impasse,
this might be a workable compromise solution.

We won't end at an impasse though. You are a member of the d20 team, and whatever final decisions the d20 team puts out as "official" will be the official one to me. I may not use the rules you've written as they are, but I won't complain about it. I can always find ways around existing rules that I don't like, and usually get it to flow perfectly with my gaming style. I advocate change and reevaluation of things, but ultimately, I can't change the mind of the community, and that's fine. What works for me doesn't always work for you, but I like to put out my ideas in the hopes that someone else will like it.

[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:

> We won`t end at an impasse though. You are a member of the d20 team,
> and whatever final decisions the d20 team puts out as "official" will
> be the official one to me.

Ack, NO! Now I`m more opposed than ever to having anything at all labeled
"official".

> I may not use the rules you`ve written as they are,

Alright, that`s slightly less scary.

> I can`t change the mind of the community,

I don`t think a *single* conversion document can ever possibly express the
mind of the community. We`re just too varied. Hence my feeling that any
"official" document -- which I don`t think should exist anyway, but if one
is to be made, I have this opinion of it -- should be nothing more than a
collection of *every* way to convert which has ever been suggested. Just
put the menu of options all in one place, and leave all deciding between
them to individual DMs.

> What works for me doesn`t always work for you, but I like to put out
> my ideas in the hopes that someone else will like it.

Which is exactly why there should be no official document of any kind.


Ryan Caveney

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[Shade]

>And I don`t think it is, either. I think everything should be looked at
and considered, is all. I don`t use a number of the monsters and prestige
classes that Wizards publishes, but I always consider them.

That`s fair. Ok, then the next question becomes - what criteria do you use
to see if something DOES get in?

>We won`t end at an impasse though. You are a member of the d20 team, and
whatever final decisions the d20 team puts out as "official" will be the
official one to me. I may not use the rules you`ve written as they are,
but I won`t complain about it. I can always find ways around existing
rules that I don`t like, and usually get it to flow perfectly with my
gaming style. I advocate change and reevaluation of things, but ultimately,
I can`t change the mind of the community, and that`s fine. What works for
me doesn`t always work for you, but I like to put out my ideas in the
hopes that someone else will like it.

I am actually not a member of the BRCS team :o

And I`m with you on this. We can all change the rules to suit ourselves.
The only thing is, I believe we DO have a mandate from WOTC to publish
something. And that something should be workable and believable.

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Shade
That`s fair. Ok, then the next question becomes - what criteria do you use
to see if something DOES get in?


If I look at a monster idea for a setting, if the first thought that pops into my head is "it doesn't belong here," then my first instinct is to say no. However, if the player can use the setting AND rules (for balance reasons) to explain WHY the character would fit, then I would loosen up.



I am actually not a member of the BRCS team :o


I see the words "d20" and "Team" in a title, and that's all I really see. But these are things that also should be noted for the Atlas, as well...


And I`m with you on this. We can all change the rules to suit ourselves.
The only thing is, I believe we DO have a mandate from WOTC to publish
something. And that something should be workable and believable.

That's exactly the point I was making. The Birthright site has permission from Wizards to put out an official conversion to 3rd Edition. It should be workable and believable, but shouldn't be narrow and static. It should present options, not limitations.

When most people buy a book, they buy it so they can have more options, not limitations.

[Shade]

At 11:55 PM 3/16/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by Shade
>That`s fair. Ok, then the next question becomes - what criteria do you use
>to see if something DOES get in?
>
>
>If I look at a monster idea for a setting, if the first thought that pops
into my head is "it doesn`t belong here," then my first instinct is to
say no. However, if the player can use the setting AND rules (for balance
reasons) to explain WHY the character would fit, then I would loosen up.

So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or Half-Dragons,
for instance.

>
And I`m with you on this. We can all change the rules to suit
ourselves.
>The only thing is, I believe we DO have a mandate from WOTC to publish
>something. And that something should be workable and believable.
>
>That`s exactly the point I was making. The Birthright site has permission
from Wizards to put out an official conversion to 3rd Edition. It should be
workable and believable, but shouldn`t be narrow and static. It should
present options, not limitations.
>
>When most people buy a book, they buy it so they can have more options,
not limitations.

So if you want to play a Genasi or a Tiefling, go get the Manual of the
Planes and ask your DM to houserule that you can play one in Cerilia.

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Shade
So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or Half-Dragons,
for instance.


Well then, by that argument, all the feats and skills and spells that were not in 2nd Edition should be scrapped completely, because they didn't exist anywhere in the setting.

I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn't want anything that wasn't originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Mourn
I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn't want anything that wasn't originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

Actually, someone once did this for BR, replaced all the name with more BR sounding name, and gave the wizards who came up with these spells little histories, etc. I can't remember where I saw the file, but it was quite good. If I find it on my computer I might post it somewhere, or it may already be on birthright.net somewhere in one of the old files.

[AnakinMiller]

> I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed
as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn`t want anything that wasn`t
originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

You are trying to subvert the point to the statement. Do you think we
should have a racial entry for yellow oozes? I mean what if I really want
to play one? Come on. By your line of thinking they ought to simply
rewrite the MM and tack it into the racial chapter, because if you leave out
entries for Gensai, Minotaurs, Ooze, Puddings, Dryads, Kobolds, Moon Dogs,
Drow or Half Dragons then you are handicapping people from expanding the
horizon of Birthright. God forbid I not be able to open the BR d20 and flip
to a racial entry for Oozes. I mean the Half-Dragon/Ooze Monk is neat. My
DM says no, but as long as its in the Core book he can`t argue right?

This document should have the Races that where detailed in the 2e Box Set.
If you must play a weird race, then go buy Savage Species. That was the
entire concept behind that book. To allow you to play Monsters. Same holds
true for the FRCS and the Gensai/Drow/Other FR Races. If you must play
them, get a hold of that book. Simple no?

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[geeman]

At 09:12 AM 3/17/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>
Originally posted by Shade
>So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
>the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
>CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or
>Half-Dragons, for instance.
>
>
>Well then, by that argument, all the feats and skills and spells that were
>not in 2nd Edition should be scrapped completely, because they didn`t
>exist anywhere in the setting.

I think I`ve mentioned this before, but let me give it another shot. One
of the fundamental points that I think keeps getting confused in this
discussion is the difference between setting material and the rules. No
one is saying The 3e RULES shouldn`t be included in a BR conversion to
3e. Feats, skills and spells are part of the 3e rules. What should not be
included in a conversion is SETTING MATERIAL from the 3e core settings,
Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. Genasi and half-dragons are setting
material. Setting material is supposed to vary from setting to
setting. That`s why it`s setting material not rules. Unfortunately, the
3e core texts contain a lot of setting material in them, so maybe people
have difficulty differentiating them or something. Campaign settings that
are not part of the 3e core rules are designated "D20" in order to
differentiate them from the campaign material from the core settings.

>I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed
>as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn`t want anything that
>wasn`t originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

We wouldn`t want to refer to them as Bigby`s This, or Mordenkainen`s That
when role-playing a BR character in-character since they wouldn`t have any
clue who those people are. It would make as much sense as Prince Avan
fearing Vecna, Raistlen dating the Chimaera or Elminster having tea with
the Gorgon. The names of the characters in those spell titles are part of
the setting material from Greyhawk that is included in the 3e
PHB. However, the spell levels, spell effects, etc. of those spells are
part of the 3e rules and can, therefore, be applied to BR. It`s easy to
call those spells Crushing Fist or Marvelous Mansion.

Gary

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[Shade]

At 09:12 AM 3/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by Shade
>So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
>the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
>CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or Half-Dragons,
>for instance.
>
>
>Well then, by that argument, all the feats and skills and spells that were
not in 2nd Edition should be scrapped completely, because they didn`t
exist anywhere in the setting.
>
>I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed
as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn`t want anything that
wasn`t originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

We don`t know that Caine, Aelies or any number of other wizards don`t have
Tenser`s Floating Disk in their spellbooks. We DO know that they`re not
Genasi or Half-Dragons.

The argument goes back to the `flavor` issue. Does it suit the flavor of
BR? There are only six dragons left in Cerilia. A half-dragon would be a
highly unlikely character, so probably not.

I admit this is a judgement call, and will vary from person to person, as
it is subjective.

You and I can probably debate forever and not change each other`s minds, as
you pointed out in the other thread. Perhaps you could draw up a simple
list of nonstandard races you`d like to see included, and we can discuss
the merits of each of them?

Ultimately this is the kind of thing that will have to be voted on. :/

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Raesene Andu

> Actually, someone once did this for BR, replaced all the name
> with more BR sounding name, and gave the wizards who came up with
> these spells little histories, etc. I can`t remember where I saw
> the file, but it was quite good. If I find it on my computer I
> might post it somewhere, or it may already be on birthright.net
> somewhere in one of the old files.

It was I what done it. I know it was on BR.net at one time, but if you don`t
find it, I might be able to dig up an old copy.

Mark V.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Mourn wrote:
>
Originally posted by Shade
>So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
>the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
>CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or Half-Dragons,
>for instance.
>
>
>Well then, by that argument, all the feats and skills and spells that were not in 2nd Edition should be scrapped completely, because they didn`t exist anywhere in the setting.
>
>I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn`t want anything that wasn`t originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?
>
Feats and skills REPLACE nonweapon and weapon proficiencys.

Genasi (I do not even know what they are but do also not even want to
know) or half-dragons can´t replace anything as there was nothing to
replace, except single individuals like e.g. Ohlaak the dragon - but a
single being perhaps the only half-dragon or whatever he is certainly
not justifies the introduction of the half-dragon template as if
half-dragons were as numerous as half-elfs.

We could just allow gates in Cerilia which allow me personally to travel
there with my Ford Fiesta and become High Archprelate of Moradin after
he took the Half-Dragon/Minotaur template ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 19:12, Mourn wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413

Mourn wrote:

Originally posted by Shade
So should it be the player`s job to find exceptions to the norm, or should
the designers be responsible for including possibilities in the rules that
CURRENTLY DON`T EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE SETTING? Like Genasi or Half-Dragons,
for instance.


Well then, by that argument, all the feats and skills and spells that
were not in 2nd Edition should be scrapped completely, because they
didn`t exist anywhere in the setting.

Yes they should be scrapped -- if they truly didn`t exist. Of course
just because a mechanic for them didn`t exist doesn`t make them
non-existent. Sometimes the mechanic may have changed - e.g. 2e AD&D has
a way of adjudicating stab through the heart, but I know of no-one that
thought to use it for bloodtheft - all made up a house rule.


I guess all the Bigby and Tenser and Mordenkainen spells should be removed
as well, since those are GH characters. Wouldn`t want anything that wasn`t
originally in the setting to spoil it all, would we?

Actually, the spell descriptions used to state that the names of such
spells should be changed in different settings. And I believe that
someone did do just that.


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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Trevyr

It was I what done it. I know it was on BR.net at one time, but if you don`t
find it, I might be able to dig up an old copy.

Mark V.



Is this is the info?

Cerilian List of Spells

The following is a complete list of Spells available for use in Cerilia, as indicated by Book of Magecraft. The descriptions can be found in the Player's Handbook, the Tome of Magic, and the BoM. These are only those from these books, none of the spells published on the mailing list or web pages are here included. This list also does not include Battle Spells or Realm Spells. In addition, I am also including a brief biography of some of the magic-users whose names grace these spells, making them more compatable with the Cerilian atmosphere. Many of these are based on my own personal concept of Cerilian history, which incorporates a former Elven realm called Innisiandh, found in the Mynyth Serecoryn, or Starcrown Mountains. About 120 years after Deismaar, this peaceable kingdom was conquered by the Gorgon, and became known as the Gorgon's Crown. However, in the 100 years following the chaos of Deismaar, Innisiandh was a focus of an unprecedented era of cooperation between the humans and elves of Cerilia. Realizing the threat that the Abominations offered to both their peoples, Innisiandh opened its doors and arms to humans, to whom it was known as Innis Yond, and eventually just Yond. For 100 years, humans and elves worked and learned together, sharing their knowledge of the world and its magic. It was a difficult process, but it was just showing the promise of paying off with a new era of respect between the two races when the Gorgon attacked with an army of goblins and gnolls he had raised in the wild interior of the Rjuric lands. He had reasoned, correctly, that if he destroyed the focus of human-elven interaction and those most responsible for bringing it to life, the era would die, and old hatreds would resurface. However, it was at this time that much of the spells of true magic became known to the humans of Cerilia. Following Deismaar, those few tribes of the Vos who had remained loyal to Vorynn needed a place to live, and found a welcome in Innisiandh. The merging of old Vos magics as well as elven secrets revealed for the first time, gave Cerilian magic the flavor that it has today. Most of the books of spells in human languages date from this time. It was also a time of invention and experimentation, and the human-elven interaction prved marvelously inspirational. Many of the most powerful spells were invented at this time. Also, the process of becomming Erhsheigh was discovered by the sages of Innisiandh, and formalized along with much lore on ley lines and ley line spells, in a book which came to be called the Lorebook of the Sage-kings of Yond among humans. A fragment of this book, called the Book of Blood, contains the spells dealing with detection and manipulation of Bloodlines and Blood Abilities, which were invented in Yond during this time.



FIRST LEVEL
Affect Normal Fires, Alarm, Armor, Audible Glamer, Burning Hands, Cantrip, Change Self, Charm Person, Chill Touch, Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Conjure Spell Component, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Undead, Enlarge, Erase, Featherfall, Find Familiar, Fire Burst, Fist of Stone, Friends, Gaze Reflection, Grease, Hold Portal, Hypnotism, Indentify, Jump, Khinasi Trade Tongue, Know Bloodline Derivation, Know Bloodline Strength, Know Cerilian Origin, Lasting Breath, Light, Magic Missle, Mending, Message, Metamorphose Liquids, Mount, Norvien's Magic Aura, Phantasmal Force, Protection from Evil, Read Magic, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Sidhelien Bow, Sleep, Spider Climb, Spook, Taunt, Tanbert's Floating Disc, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism, Wall of Fog, Wizard Mark.

-Norvien of Ghiest was a magician living in the city of Ghiest in what is know Ghoere at the time of the Anuirean occupation of Brechtur. He created this spell for the purpose of analyzing the causes and effects of magical fields flowing through objects, but his assistant, a Brecht captive, realized its true importance immediately, and grew quite rich from selling fake magic weapons by the time his apprenticeship was done.

-Tanbert of Ilfressen was a wizard of Berhagen at the time of the Brecht League. A band of adventurers he was a part of became quite adept at relieving old elven ruins of their treasures, and created this spell to help them carry all of their loot. It is said that there is still a magic cavern somewhere in the mountains of Ilfressen filled with gold and elven magical items, because it is well known that Tanbert met his end in the clutches of the Vampire.



SECOND LEVEL
Alter Self, Bind, Blindness, Blur, Calder's Starry Sky, Continual Light, Darkness, 10' Radius, Deafness, Deeppockets, Detect Evil, Detect Invisibility, First Strike, Flaming Sphere, Fog Cloud, Fool's Gold, Forget, Glitterdust, Hear Mind's Voice (ESP), Hypnotic Pattern, Improved Phantasmal Force, Insatiable Thurst, Invisibility, Irritation, Knock, Know Alignment, Leonid's Trap, Levitate, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Malena's Earthen Grasp, Marya's Acid Arrow, Mask Bloodline, Misdirection, Misfortune, Past Life, Protection from Cantrips, Protection from Paralysis, Pyrotechnics, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ride the Wind, Rope Trick, Ruornil's Tracks, Scare, Sense Shifting, Sidhelien Vision (replicate Elven ability to see in moodlight and starlight), Shatter, Spectral Hand, Stinking Cloud, Strength, Summon Swarm, Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter, Web, Whispering Wind, Mage Lock (same as wizard lock, only the true Wizard Lock comes at third level, i.e. cannot be opened by mere magicians).

-Calder Wheelwright was a guild magician working for the Brecht Seelundkauten in Muden when he devised this spell about 50 years ago. It has seen widespread use among both Brecht and Anuriean merchant marines, and wizards among the two peoples have started permanently ensorceling the mirrors so that non-magicians can use the spell as well. It has not caught on as much in Khinasi lands, since the weather there tends not to be as overcast.

-Leonid Moonsire was the son of Ruornil, and inherited the leadership of the tribes of the Vos who remained loyal to Vorynn at Deismaar when his father underwent his apotheosis. In the chaos that followed Deismaar he led his people to Innisiandh, and became one of the foremost leaders of the movement at Yond.

-Malena of Yond, or Malena Stonefriend as she was called later in life, was one of the few wizards to escape the destruction of Yond. She fled with a number of books, including the Lorebook of the Sage-kings of Yond to Mur-Kilad, where she helped the Dwarves resist the encroachment of the Gorgon for some time, until the dwarves were betrayed from within, the leaders of the Earthcore family and their allies opened a secret door for the Gorgon's troops, and Mur-kilad fell. Many of the dwarven families barely had time to escape with their lives, and left many of their prized possessions behind. Malena bought the dwarven families time to escape to the eaves of the Sielwode, but paid the price with her own life. This is another of the many reasons that the dwarves of Baruk-Azik find to hate the Mur-kilad dwarves, for Malena was much loved by the dwarven folk.

-Marya Greeneyes was from the same Vos tribe as Leonid Moonsire, and the two fell in love and were married in Yond. The elves still sing balads of the magical courtship the two underwent, which amazed the elves with its passion and intensity.

-Tasha Icelock was a Vos witch who lived in the Mistmoors about 150 years ago. She was a stong believer in poetic justice, and derived some cunning magical punishments for the leaders of her tribe who had laughed at her and made her dance for them and traded her back and forth between their tents. However, the experience turned her heart cold and evil, and she was killed by a party of Brecht and Khinasi adventurers.



THIRD LEVEL
Alacrity, Augmentation I, Blink, Delude, Dispel Magic, Dwarven Vision (Infravision), El Amir's Fundamental Breakdown, Enhance Blood Ability, Erik's Quills, Explosive Runes, Far Reaching I, Feign Death, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Fly, Gust of Wind, Haelyn's Bow, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Undead, Illusionary Script, Invisibile Ear (Claraudience), Invisible Eye (Clairvoyance), Invisibility, 10' Radius, Item, Leonid's Tiny Hut, Lightning Bolt, Malena's Stony Grasp, Marya's Minute Meteors, Minor Malison, Monster Summoning I, Non-detection, Phantom Steed, Protection from Evil, 10' Radius, Protection from Normal Missles, Secret Page, Sepia Snake Sigil, Shaefpaete's Creeping Shadow, Slow, Spectral Force, Spirit Armour, Squaring the Circle, Suggestion, Suppress Blood Ability, Tongues, Vampire's Touch, Water Breathing, Watery Double, Wind Wall, Wizard Lock (two forms: as Wizard lock, only makes the door as strong as the wall around it, or as wizard lock with an illusion that covers the door, blending it in with the rest of the wall, chest, etc.), Wizard Knock (two forms: one needed to open a Wizard Locked Door if not the caster, and will take regular doors off their hinges and blow them across the room, second automatically disarms any mundane traps as it opens), Wizard Sight, Wraithform, Zikalan Fireform.

- Early Basarji wizards had the unusual habit of not signing their names to any of their spells or spellbooks. As such, we do not know much about the authors of some Basarji spells. One such author is known only as "the Amir" or El-Amir. There is some speculation that this refers to the Amirs of Mesire, but the spells attributed to El-Amir are rather more dark that would be expected of that honorable house. Another theory is that the Amir refered to is the Amir of Djira. Perhaps the black creature known as El-Sheighul is in fact an old Amir of Djira who dabbled in the dark arts, and became corrupted by the Shadow World.

-The Spells of Shaefpaete were only recently discovered by the Royal Marines of Muden on a pirate ship which they captured a few years ago. Copies are being widely distributed as a protest of Shaefpaete's apparent patronage of pirates as well as his dabbling with shadow wizardry, which many view as unsafe and potentialy corrupting.

-Another early Basarji wizard who left his books anonymous is known to us today as The Zikalan Wizard. He seemed to have an intense interest with fire, as he developed many spells that involve it.



FOURTH LEVEL
Anatoli's Resilient Sphere, Charm Monster, Confusion, Contagion, Detect Scrying, Dig, Dilation, Dimension Door, Divination Enhancement, Emotion, Enchanted Weapon, Enervation, Extension I, Far Reaching II, Fear, Fire Charm, Fire Shield, Fire Trap, Fumble, Greater Malison, Hallucinatory Terrain, Ice Storm, Identify Tighmaevril, Illusionary Wall, Improved Armor, Improved Invisibility, Leonid's Secure Shelter, Magic Mirror, Mask of Death, Massmorph, Merwyndin's Celerity, Mimic Blood Ability, Minor Creation, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Minor Spell Turning, Monster Summoning II, Phantasmal Killer, Plant Growth, Polymorph Other, Polymorph Self, Rainbow Pattern, Remove Curse, Riegon's Mnemonic Enhancer, Shadow Monsters, Shaefpaete's Black Tentacles, Shaefpaete's Shadowy Distinction, Shout, Solid Fog, Stoneskin, Thunderstaff, Turn Pebble to Boulder, Vacancy, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wizard Eye

-Anatoli Wyrmbane was another Vos tribesman who survived the events at Deismaar. He distinguished himself on that field by slaying two human-headed serpent minions (naga) of Azrai by encasing them in a glowing sphere of pure energy in an act of desperation which gave him strength far beyond his training. He spent the rest of his life trying to recreate the effect, and to all knowedge he was unsuccessful. However, in the process he was to invent many other powerful spells based on the sphere.

- Merwyndin was the King of the Elven Kingdom of Innisiandh, and was the cheif instigator of the movement at Yond. He was a powerful wizard of the elves, and invited the Vos tribes of Vorynn to live in Innisiandh, partly of assuage his guilt for having been deluded by Azrai and wallowing in his wrath for so long. He was greatly affected by the transformation that overcame his friend Rhoubhe, and this fueled his desire to bring peace and understanding between the races of elf and man. He created a number of powerful spells before he was killed by the Gorgon defending his realm to the last of his strength. It was said that he was the last living person who knew the secret of making tighmaevril, and it is very likely that he took the knowledge to his grave, because he was strongly of the belief that the metal was far too effective in the wrong hands.

- Riegon of Ansien was an Anuirean wizard who received some training at Yond. He is cheifly important because he left Yond only a few months before Yond was destroyed by the Gorgon, and he brought a number of spellbooks with him that may otherwise have perished.



FIFTH LEVEL
Advanced Illusion, Airy Water, Animal Growth, Animate Dead, Avoidance, Boeric's Interposing Hand, Chaos, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Demi-Shadow Monsters, Disguise Bloodline, Dismissal, Distance Distortion, Domination, Door of Darkness (Teleport), Dream, Extension II, Fabricate, Facet, False Vision, Far Reaching III, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Invisible Arm (telekinesis), Khazid's Procurement, Leonid's Lamentable Belaborment, Leonid's Secret Chest, Lower Resistance, Magic Jar, Magic Staff, Major Creation, Mass Mounts, Merwyndin's Faithful Hound, Mind Fog, Monster Summoning III, Passwall, Safeguarding, Seeming, Sending, Shadow Door, Shadow Magic, Stone Shape, Summon Shadow, Transmute Rock to Mud, von Gasik's Refusal, Wall of Force, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone.

- Boeric Taeghas was the first of the line of Taeghas Wizards, and was an important part of the Anuirean Empire's advance into Rjuric lands. He came up with his first hand spell as a means to keep individual Rjuric battleragers who broke through the lines from attacking the Imperial Pavilion.

- Khazid of Sendoure was a Khinasi wizard who wandered extensively in Brecht and Anuirean lands. He would often pay for his keep in the towers of wizards he would visit in exchange for this spell.

- Darold von Gasik was the Baron of Meklsburg in Kiergard when the Gorgon struck and captured that land. He spent the rest of his life in Rohrmarch planning his revenge and trying to get the Kings of Rohrmarch to campaign in eastern Kiergard.



SIXTH LEVEL
Anatoli's Freezing Sphere, Anti-magic Shell, Augmentation II, Boeric's Forceful Hand, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Control Water, Death Fog, Death Spell, Demi-shadow Monsters, Dilation II, Disintegrate, Enchant an Item, Ensnarement, Extension III, Eyebite, Geas, Glassee, Globe of Invulnerability, Guards and Wards, Invisible Stalker, Legend Lore, Leonid's Shadowy Transformation, Lower Water, Mass Suggestion, Merwyndin's Lubrication, Mirage Arcana, Mislead, Monster Summoning IV, Move Earth, Part Water, Permanent Illusion, Programmed Illusion, Project Image, Reincarnation, Repulsion, Shades, Sidhelien Mien, Stone to Flesh, Suppress Bloodline, Tanbert's Transformation, Transmute Water to Dust, True Seeing, Veil, Zikalan Fiery Constrictor.



SEVENTH LEVEL
Acid Storm, Banishment, Boeric's Grasping Hand, Byrnwnbhie's Frightful Joining, Charm Plants, Control Undead, Delayed Blast Fireball, Devlyn's Instant Summons, Door of Light (teleport w/o error), Duo-dimention, Finger of Death, Forcecage, Intensify Summoning, Limited Wish, Mass Invisibility, Merwyndin's Magnificent Mansion, Merwyndin's Sword, Monster Summoning V, Phase Door, Power Word, Stun, Prismatic Spray, Reverse Gravity, Sequester, Shadowcat, Shadow Walk, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, Statue, Steal Enchantment, Suffocate, Vanish, Vision, Zikalan Flame Fist.

- Byrnwbhie was an elven wizard who responded wholeheartedly to Azrai's call to take up arms against the humans. When the Andu finally defeated her people, who lived in what has now become the Spiderfell Forest but was at that time a much larger woods, they found this spell among others in her tower. A Blessed of Vorynn who had been helping the Andu took the book, and kept the spell from being lost. (Or alternatively, if you would rather that NO humans could cast true magic before deismaar, he kept it because the book also had powerful illusion spells in it.)

- Devlyn of Greyspire was a half-elf who lived in the woods of Dhoesone in the century after the Anuireans captured it from the Rjuric. He was born of a beautiful Rjuric woman, and it is believed that he worked behind-the-scenes in the court of Dhoesone to help ensure that his mother's people were respected and given citizenship in the new country.



EIGHTH LEVEL
Airboat, Anitoli's Travelling Sphere (telekinetic sphere), Antipathy-Sympathy, Binding, Boeric's Clenched Fist, Clone, Demand, El-Amir's Horrid Wilting, Garradh's Kaliedoscopic Strike, Glasteel, Incendiary Cloud, Magic Drain, Mass Charm, Maze, Mind Blank, Monster Summoning VI, Permanency, Polymorph any Object, Power Word, Blind, Prismatic Wall, Screen, Sink, Siobhan's Spell Immunity, Symbol, Tasha's Irresistable Dance, Trap the Soul

- Garradh of Tuarhievel was an illusionist from the nearby elf kingdom, who joined the movement at Yond wholeheartedly. He also escaped the destruction of Yond by reaching the shade of Tuarhievel's trees just ahead of the Gorgon's headhunters.

- Siobhan of Yond was another powerful elven wizard, the wife of Merwynin and Queen of Yond. Little is known of her, save that she was very beautiful, and that she is said to have had portents of the destruction of Innisiandh. That anyone at all escaped Yond's destruction is generally attributed to her foresight.



NINTH LEVEL
Astral Spell, Blood Drain, Boeric's Crushing Hand, Chain Contingency, Crystalbrittle, Elemental Aura, Energy Drain, Foresight, Gate, Imprisonment, Merwyndin's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm, Monster Summoning VII, Power Word, Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Shape Change, Succor, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wierd, Wish.

And finally, because I just can't stop myself, my idea for a new Battle Spell:

BOERIC'S MIGHTY GAUNTLET
Boeric Taeghas would cast this spell at the onset of a battle, and then settle back on a nearby hill using the power of the giant hand-shaped field of force this spell creates to <flick> opposing generals off their horses.

[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Raesene Andu
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:43 AM
> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: Re: Core Materials design philosophy [36#1413]
>
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
>
> Raesene Andu wrote:
>
[b]Originally posted by Trevyr
>
> It was I what done it. I know it was on BR.net at one time, but
> if you don`t
> find it, I might be able to dig up an old copy.
>
> Mark V.
>
>
>
> Is this is the info?
>

Yup, that`s the stuff. The bits about Yond were campaign-specific to a
campaign I was running at the time, and can probably be safely excised or
rewritten.

Mark V.

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