Chapter 2 Poll 3 - ECLs

[irdeggman]

Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?

[Mourn]

Yes.

According to the design diaries of various d20 developers I've read, ECL is one of the best ways to balance characters in the system. However, not ALL scions should have ECLs, even if they have a template that gives them one.

For example, let's take a minor scion (Ftr5, Bld 18) and a major scion (Ftr5, Bld 12). According to the rules, the minor scion is an ECL 5, and the major scion is an ECL 6. The minor scion has a +4 modifier, and the major scion has a +1 modifier. The minor scion has 3 bloodline abilities, all minor, and the major scion has one minor ability.

The minor scion is obviously the stronger of the two, due to the abilities gained and the strength of the score, and the major scion is the weaker. However, due to the rules, the major scion is considered a higher ECL.

This is also a problem with the connection between Bloodline score (which grants the modifier and the abilities) and the templates (which grant the strength). In short, there is no connection between them.

The Bloodline ability score could be used alone, along with an ECL modifier, in order to represent the strength of bloodlines. When you gain a certain amount of bloodline abilities to be equal to a character of a higher level, you gain an ECL adjustment. Thus, if having a Bloodline of 18 granted you enough abilities to be considered one level higher, that's when you get the level adjustment.

Then again, gaining ECLs during play can unbalance the game. A commoner (Ftr5) and a scion (Ftr5) are travelling together and the scion commits bloodtheft and becomes a major scion (or in my alternate, an 18 Bloodline), gaining an ECL +1. Now, the scion is considered a 6th-level character, and the commoner is still a 5th-level character. How to balance this out during game play, since every mixed (commoner and scion) game may have to deal with this at some point.

[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:
> This is also a problem with the connection between Bloodline score
> (which grants the modifier and the abilities) and the templates (which
> grant the strength). In short, there is no connection between them.

This is an effort to mimic the old duality of bloodline strength and
score. It was kinda clunky then, and should probably be done away with,
or at least streamlined. If we end up with bloodline as an ability score,
then the `tainted, minor, major, great, true` should be done away with as
categories, though they could remain as descriptors. Someone with a
bloodline up to 10 might be described as having a `minor bloodline`, for
instance.

> Then again, gaining ECLs during play can unbalance the game. A
> commoner (Ftr5) and a scion (Ftr5) are travelling together and the
> scion commits bloodtheft and becomes a major scion (or in my
> alternate, an 18 Bloodline), gaining an ECL +1. Now, the scion is
> considered a 6th-level character, and the commoner is still a
> 5th-level character. How to balance this out during game play, since
> every mixed (commoner and scion) game may have to deal with this at
> some point.

And what if your score lowers, and you`re all of a sudden a lower ECL?
Bleh.

Blooded scion, as a template, is rather like the drow or tiefling or
whatever template, in concept at least. The Savage Species approach might
be useful here- a scion is considered to have a level of the `blooded
scion` race, which gives him a d10 hp (+10 max at first level, hitting
that old chestnut successfully), a Bloodline ability score, and the
ability to use bloodline powers, plus a coupla skill points and whatever
a species `level` gives you. Someone who gains a bloodline through
whatever means would get the ability score, but no powers until they took
a level of this racial class.

All scions would then be ECL +1. Saving throws on their abilities would
be, I dunno, 15 + Bld modifier, rather than 12 for minor, 15 for major,
and 18 for great as it stands now I think.

You could even extend the racial class out further for awnsheghlien and
ersheghlien, requiring the appropriate blood ability to take the
additional levels.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

At 04:05 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>Blooded scion, as a template, is rather like the drow or tiefling or
>whatever template, in concept at least. The Savage Species approach might
>be useful here- a scion is considered to have a level of the `blooded
>scion` race, which gives him a d10 hp (+10 max at first level, hitting
>that old chestnut successfully), a Bloodline ability score, and the
>ability to use bloodline powers, plus a coupla skill points and whatever
>a species `level` gives you. Someone who gains a bloodline through
>whatever means would get the ability score, but no powers until they took
>a level of this racial class.

Well, let me apologize for holding out on everyone.... I actually wrote a
"Scion" character class up as a sort of alternate bloodline system a while
back, but I`ve been leery about introducing the topic to the BR community
since so many folks seem to prefer bloodline as an ability score (also
because I haven`t had the idea fully fleshed out.) It is at least as much
of a departure from the original 2e system as bloodline as an ability
score, so I`ve been revealing it in dribs and drabs. Since the primary
merit of bloodline as an ability score seems to be that it is "a more 3e
way of doing things" I think bloodline as a character class makes even more
sense.

The class uses the system of bloodline points that fits into some recent
posts I`ve been suggesting in other threads. Here it is:

The Scion
Blood BL Max Blood
Level Score BAB Saves Points Abilities
1 1-7 +0 +0 1 1
2 8-14 +1 +0 2 1
3 15-21 +1 +1 3 2
4 22-28 +2 +1 4 2
5 29-35 +2 +1 5 2
6 36-42 +3 +2 6 3
7 43-49 +3 +2 7 3
8 50-56 +4 +2 8 3
9 57-63 +4 +3 9 4
10 64-70 +5 +3 10 4
11 71-77 +5 +3 11 4
12 78-84 +6 +4 12 5
13 85-91 +6 +4 13 5
14 92-98 +7 +4 14 5
15 99-105 +7 +5 15 6
16 106-112 +8 +5 16 6
17 113-119 +8 +5 17 6
18 120-126 +9 +6 18 7
19 127-133 +9 +6 19 7
20 134-140 +10 +6 20 7

The Scion as a class has d4 hit dice. I also gave the class 2 skill points
per level, but the only skills available to the class were a few
specialized ones meant for blooded characters like "Sense Bloodline" which
allowed scions to recognize other blooded characters. (Several of those
skill descriptions I`ve sent to the list in the past, so they should be in
the archives.)

The primary difference between the Scion as a character class and a regular
character class, of course, is that one does not increase one`s Scion class
by levelling up through experience points. Only increasing bloodline score
(by bloodtheft or good realm management) can do that.

One could replace the bloodline points and max abilities with minor, major,
great blood abilities fairly easily if one felt that system is too cumbersome.

In playtesting I found it a bit hard to balance in that it`s difficult to
compare directly with "standard" character classes for the ECL
purposes. It`s not any less or more unbalanced, however, than bloodline as
an ability score from what I can tell. I`ve been considering dropping all
the class features and just going with bloodline strength and bloodline
points--which is what I presented previously as "2e bloodlines in 3e style."

So the choices for other ways of doing bloodline would seem to be:

1. Make it an ability score.
2. Make it a character class--sort of.
3. Make it an independent system more in line with the original 2e system.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

IMO a "virtuell" ECL is enough. A major scion might count as 3rd level, if he is 2nd, but he should still need the XP for 3rd...

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 09:43, Gary wrote:

At 04:05 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>Blooded scion, as a template, is rather like the drow or tiefling or
>whatever template, in concept at least. The Savage Species approach might
>be useful here- a scion is considered to have a level of the `blooded
>scion` race, which gives him a d10 hp (+10 max at first level, hitting
>that old chestnut successfully), a Bloodline ability score, and the
>ability to use bloodline powers, plus a coupla skill points and whatever
>a species `level` gives you. Someone who gains a bloodline through
>whatever means would get the ability score, but no powers until they took
>a level of this racial class.

Well, let me apologize for holding out on everyone.... I actually wrote a
"Scion" character class up as a sort of alternate bloodline system a while
back, but I`ve been leery about introducing the topic to the BR community
since so many folks seem to prefer bloodline as an ability score (also
because I haven`t had the idea fully fleshed out.) It is at least as much
of a departure from the original 2e system as bloodline as an ability
score, so I`ve been revealing it in dribs and drabs. Since the primary
merit of bloodline as an ability score seems to be that it is "a more 3e
way of doing things" I think bloodline as a character class makes even more
sense.

This came up in some (much) earlier posts - and I tend to agree. Blood
abilities gained gradually over experience/time makes more sense and
would make for more balanced character especially when comparing blooded
to unblooded..


The class uses the system of bloodline points that fits into some recent
posts I`ve been suggesting in other threads. Here it is:

The Scion
Blood BL Max Blood
Level Score BAB Saves Points Abilities
1 1-7 +0 +0 1 1
2 8-14 +1 +0 2 1
3 15-21 +1 +1 3 2
4 22-28 +2 +1 4 2
5 29-35 +2 +1 5 2
6 36-42 +3 +2 6 3
7 43-49 +3 +2 7 3
8 50-56 +4 +2 8 3
9 57-63 +4 +3 9 4
10 64-70 +5 +3 10 4
11 71-77 +5 +3 11 4
12 78-84 +6 +4 12 5
13 85-91 +6 +4 13 5
14 92-98 +7 +4 14 5
15 99-105 +7 +5 15 6
16 106-112 +8 +5 16 6
17 113-119 +8 +5 17 6
18 120-126 +9 +6 18 7
19 127-133 +9 +6 19 7
20 134-140 +10 +6 20 7

The Scion as a class has d4 hit dice. I also gave the class 2 skill points
per level, but the only skills available to the class were a few
specialized ones meant for blooded characters like "Sense Bloodline" which
allowed scions to recognize other blooded characters. (Several of those
skill descriptions I`ve sent to the list in the past, so they should be in
the archives.)

Why only d4 hit dice? A d4 hit dice represents poor combat abilities.
I`d argue that at least human standard (d6) would be applicable. And
most scions of noble houses should be better fed and better trained -
(even if not trained as warriors) - so perhaps even d8.


The primary difference between the Scion as a character class and a regular
character class, of course, is that one does not increase one`s Scion class
by levelling up through experience points. Only increasing bloodline score
(by bloodtheft or good realm management) can do that.

But why not? (use experience) What if a character has a potential to
become a great scion? i.e. Forget generating all the bloodline points
first up, and generate them at each level of experience. Say a d6 for
minor bloodlines, d8 for major and d10 for great. Or work toward a
predetermined maximum value (which can change due to domain actions,
bloodtheft etc) - such that a Scion would have a score like 14/25.
Regents use the raw (or maximum) power, while the amount of the raw
bloodline that the Scion can focus (to use blood abilities) depends on
how much experience they`d had doing it.


One could replace the bloodline points and max abilities with minor, major,
great blood abilities fairly easily if one felt that system is too cumbersome.

In playtesting I found it a bit hard to balance in that it`s difficult to
compare directly with "standard" character classes for the ECL
purposes. It`s not any less or more unbalanced, however, than bloodline as
an ability score from what I can tell. I`ve been considering dropping all
the class features and just going with bloodline strength and bloodline
points--which is what I presented previously as "2e bloodlines in 3e style."

Yes, the blood abilities are hardly balanced with respect to each other.
However, you could work out a way of assigning points to each blood
ability rather like the old psionics and allowing a Scion to have a
non-mnemonic based variety of powers (defined by bloodline derivation,
and restricted by the Scions bloodline points). Sort of a Scionicist,
hee hee. The points could be drawn against the Scions (focused)
bloodline points rather than their potential maximum.


So the choices for other ways of doing bloodline would seem to be:

1. Make it an ability score.
2. Make it a character class--sort of.
3. Make it an independent system more in line with the original 2e system.

Gary

or 4. Something else

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[Shade]

>3. Make it an independent system more in line with the original 2e system.

I strongly favor this approach.

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[geeman]

At 12:18 PM 3/11/2003 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

>This came up in some (much) earlier posts - and I tend to agree. Blood
>abilities gained gradually over experience/time makes more sense and would
>make for more balanced character especially when comparing blooded to
>unblooded.

I hadn`t really thought of it in those terms, but I guess you could use
this kind of thing to reflect a character gaining his bloodline and blood
abilities gradually by doling out their bloodline strength points at some
sort of regular rate.

>>The Scion as a class has d4 hit dice.
>
>Why only d4 hit dice? A d4 hit dice represents poor combat abilities. I`d
>argue that at least human standard (d6) would be applicable. And most
>scions of noble houses should be better fed and better trained - (even if
>not trained as warriors) - so perhaps even d8.

Normally d4 represents poor combat abilities, but in this case d4 hit dice
because they add up over time. The idea was that the levels in this Scion
character class would be the direct, 3e interpretation of a similarly
powered scion in the original 2e bloodline system. A blooded PC would then
be by default a multi-classed character. Scion levels don`t count for the
purpose of multi-classing XP penalties (which I generally don`t care for
anyway.) All the bloodline as a character class features are then
coincident with other traditional character classes, so bloodline as a
character class adds hit points on top of already existing HD from the
regular character class. A scion with good combat abilities would take
fighter levels (or ranger, paladin, whatever) in addition to his bloodline.

>>The primary difference between the Scion as a character class and a
>>regular character class, of course, is that one does not increase one`s
>>Scion class by levelling up through experience points. Only increasing
>>bloodline score (by bloodtheft or good realm management) can do that.
>
>But why not? (use experience) What if a character has a potential to
>become a great scion? i.e. Forget generating all the bloodline points
>first up, and generate them at each level of experience. Say a d6 for
>minor bloodlines, d8 for major and d10 for great. Or work toward a
>predetermined maximum value (which can change due to domain actions,
>bloodtheft etc) - such that a Scion would have a score like 14/25.
>Regents use the raw (or maximum) power, while the amount of the raw
>bloodline that the Scion can focus (to use blood abilities) depends on
>how much experience they`d had doing it.

That`s interesting. You mean make the bloodline a sort of scaled
template? You could go that way, I guess. It`s much different from the
original BR system, though, which is what I was trying to do there.

> In playtesting I found it a bit hard to balance in that it`s difficult to
> compare directly with "standard" character classes for the ECL
> purposes. It`s not any less or more unbalanced, however, than
> bloodline as
> an ability score from what I can tell. I`ve been considering
> dropping all
> the class features and just going with bloodline strength and bloodline
> points--which is what I presented previously as "2e bloodlines in 3e
> style."
>
>Yes, the blood abilities are hardly balanced with respect to each other.
>However, you could work out a way of assigning points to each blood
>ability rather like the old psionics and allowing a Scion to have a
>non-mnemonic based variety of powers (defined by bloodline derivation,
>and restricted by the Scions bloodline points). Sort of a Scionicist,
>hee hee. The points could be drawn against the Scions (focused)
>bloodline points rather than their potential maximum.

I think that`s basically the direction bloodline points takes the
system. I`ve written up a few of those blood ability descriptions in the
bloodline point style. Here`s another one.

Regeneration (An, Az, Re)
You are able to heal more quickly than would a normal person.
As a minor(1) ability you are completely healed after one night of rest
no matter how much damage you suffer the previous day. For additional BPs
you can advance the Regeneration power per the table below. By spending an
additional +1 BP you can regenerate lost limbs or recover from physical
injury causing paralysis, blindness or deafness.

BP Regeneration Limb Regeneration
Cost Rate (+1 BP)
2 1hp/10 minutes 91-100 (1d10+90) days
3 1hp/minute 8-10 (1d3+7) days
4 1hp/round 1 night of rest
5 2hp/round 2-4 hours
6 3hp/round 41-60 minutes
7 4hp/round 8-10 minutes
8 5hp/round 2-5 minutes

For example, a scion with Regeneration as a major(5) ability will heal 2
hit points per round. By dedicating one of those BP to the ability to
regenerate lost limbs, however, that same major(5) ability would regenerate
1hp/round and regrow lost limbs after 1 night of rest.
By spending 2BP on this ability a scion will return from the dead when
reduced below 0 hit points (or -10 if that optional rule is in
effect.) Note that an act of bloodtheft performed on a scion destroys his
bloodline and blood abilities, removing his bloodline and ability to return
from the dead.

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:
>
>>This is also a problem with the connection between Bloodline score
>>(which grants the modifier and the abilities) and the templates (which
>>grant the strength). In short, there is no connection between them.
>>
>
>This is an effort to mimic the old duality of bloodline strength and
>score. It was kinda clunky then, and should probably be done away with,
>or at least streamlined. If we end up with bloodline as an ability score,
>then the `tainted, minor, major, great, true` should be done away with as
>categories, though they could remain as descriptors. Someone with a
>bloodline up to 10 might be described as having a `minor bloodline`, for
>instance.
>
The descriptors should definitely stay: While very few people in Cerilia
will actually know the bloodline points of Prince Avan, nearly all will
know that he has e.g. a "great" bloodline. It is so common knowledge for
blooded scions that familys e.g. would not let the daughter of a great
line marry into a minor (a commoner is totally out of question!) because
the childrens blood would be diluted - and that all in addition to the
normal considerations of aristrocracy.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

Technically, what you are describing here is Fast Healing, not regeneration.
I guess you should try to name a blood ability Regeneration if it does not
confirm to what regeneration is in 3E.

/Carl


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
>
> Regeneration (An, Az, Re)
> You are able to heal more quickly than would a normal person.
> As a minor(1) ability you are completely healed after one night of rest
> no matter how much damage you suffer the previous day. For additional BPs
> you can advance the Regeneration power per the table below. By spending an
> additional +1 BP you can regenerate lost limbs or recover from physical
> injury causing paralysis, blindness or deafness.
>
> BP Regeneration Limb Regeneration
> Cost Rate (+1 BP)
> 2 1hp/10 minutes 91-100 (1d10+90) days
> 3 1hp/minute 8-10 (1d3+7) days
> 4 1hp/round 1 night of rest
> 5 2hp/round 2-4 hours
> 6 3hp/round 41-60 minutes
> 7 4hp/round 8-10 minutes
> 8 5hp/round 2-5 minutes
>
> For example, a scion with Regeneration as a major(5) ability will heal
2
> hit points per round. By dedicating one of those BP to the ability to
> regenerate lost limbs, however, that same major(5) ability would
regenerate
> 1hp/round and regrow lost limbs after 1 night of rest.
> By spending 2BP on this ability a scion will return from the dead when
> reduced below 0 hit points (or -10 if that optional rule is in
> effect.) Note that an act of bloodtheft performed on a scion destroys his
> bloodline and blood abilities, removing his bloodline and ability to
return
> from the dead.
>
> Gary
>
>
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[Birthright-L]

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

> The descriptors should definitely stay: While very few people in Cerilia
> will actually know the bloodline points of Prince Avan, nearly all will
> know that he has e.g. a "great" bloodline. It is so common knowledge for
> blooded scions that familys e.g. would not let the daughter of a great
> line marry into a minor (a commoner is totally out of question!) because
> the childrens blood would be diluted - and that all in addition to the
> normal considerations of aristrocracy.
> bye
> Michael Romes
>
I`m not arguing your point here - just giving an example to show how right
you are.

The bloodline system is a way to represent in-game "the the normal
considerations of aristocracy". Even if the nobility did not generally think
of themselves as descended from gods in medieval times, they still thought
of "blue blood" and all that. So I`d think that keeping a bloodline pure
is/was a very important part of the "normal considerations of aristocracy".

I visited a noble estate here in Sweden, and the proud owner (who is
considered more than a little odd these days) displayed an ancestral tree of
five generations - and everyone on that three had a coat of arms. And this
family three was from the 14th century! Imagine five generations of only
blooded ancestors in a small place like Sweden!

/Carl


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[Mourn]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
This is an effort to mimic the old duality of bloodline strength and
score. It was kinda clunky then, and should probably be done away with,
or at least streamlined. If we end up with bloodline as an ability score,
then the `tainted, minor, major, great, true` should be done away with as
categories, though they could remain as descriptors. Someone with a
bloodline up to 10 might be described as having a `minor bloodline`, for
instance.


It was broken in 2nd Edition, because 2nd edition was broken, and it's broken in 3rd Edition as well. I propose the same thing. The entire system should hinge on the Bloodline ability score, if the score is being used at all.

Another thought is a skills and feat system. Feat chains for different bloodlines, along with special skills that employ the Bloodline score. All would be class skills to scions of the appropriate bloodline.


And what if your score lowers, and you`re all of a sudden a lower ECL?
Bleh.

Yes. Perhaps an awnsheghlien has a powerful and vile spell to blight the strength of a scion's bloodline. "Your divine blood will be of no aid to you. You are no match for me." And the bloodline score gets lowered, and the ECL gets lowered as well.

Just like with negative levels. You get hit with a negative level, you get a level adjustment of -1 now. It's just the same, really.

And how often would your score get lowered, any how? People state that it is difficult to raise the score, so why would it be any easier to lower it? Plus, if something does happen to cause it be lowered, there is probably a big reason behind it, and it is well justified. If you have a bunch of powers that grant you an ECL +1, and then you lose all those powers. You would be weaker than you were before, thus showing why the ECL was removed.


Blooded scion, as a template, is rather like the drow or tiefling or
whatever template, in concept at least. The Savage Species approach might
be useful here- a scion is considered to have a level of the `blooded
scion` race, which gives him a d10 hp (+10 max at first level, hitting
that old chestnut successfully), a Bloodline ability score, and the
ability to use bloodline powers, plus a coupla skill points and whatever
a species `level` gives you. Someone who gains a bloodline through
whatever means would get the ability score, but no powers until they took
a level of this racial class.

Except that neither drow nor tiefling are templates, they are races. You cannot apply "drow" or "tiefling" to any other character. You are either a tiefling or a drow, you cannot be a human drow or a troll tiefling. However, you can be a human scion, an elf scion or even a badger scion if you'd like.

Then, as stated, this may as well be a Scion class. A character class, which requires a Bloodline, or automatically gives you one.



All scions would then be ECL +1. Saving throws on their abilities would
be, I dunno, 15 + Bld modifier, rather than 12 for minor, 15 for major,
and 18 for great as it stands now I think.


Or, if as I stated in using the Bloodline ability score exclusively, the blood abilities could be restructured to function from levels 1-9 (like spells), and use the bonus spells chart in order to show the progression of abilities. Thus, the DC would be 10 + blood ability level + Bld modifier, which would have the same balance as spells.


You could even extend the racial class out further for awnsheghlien and
ersheghlien, requiring the appropriate blood ability to take the
additional levels.


Or the template with levels idea I posted in another thread.

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:
>
Blooded scion, as a template, is rather like the drow or tiefling or
> whatever template, in concept at least. The Savage Species approach might
> be useful here- a scion is considered to have a level of the `blooded
> scion` race, which gives him a d10 hp (+10 max at first level, hitting
> that old chestnut successfully), a Bloodline ability score, and the
> ability to use bloodline powers, plus a coupla skill points and whatever
> a species `level` gives you. Someone who gains a bloodline through
> whatever means would get the ability score, but no powers until they took
> a level of this racial class.
>
> Except that neither drow nor tiefling are templates. You cannot apply
> "drow" or "tiefling" to any other character. You are either a
> tiefling or a drow, you cannot be a human drow or a troll tiefling.
> However, you can be a human scion, an elf scion or even a badger scion
> if you`d like.

Well, all species are templates, in that they`re a set of modifiers
applied to a base character (ie elves are a template on your base 3-18 guy
with +2 Dex, -2 Con, and sundry powers, and humans are a template which
gets an extra feat at 1st level and extra skill points). But you`re
right, I was muddling my terminology.

ECLed species in Savage Species get this level-based treatment, is what I
was after. We could do the same thing with scions. And Cerilian
Halfings, Elves, and Dwarves, now that I think of it. Want your halfing
character to be able to go into the shadow world? Take your racial level
of Halfing.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[doom]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 02:43:53PM -0800, Gary wrote:
> Well, let me apologize for holding out on everyone.... I actually wrote a
> "Scion" character class up as a sort of alternate bloodline system a while
> back, but I`ve been leery about introducing the topic to the BR community
> since so many folks seem to prefer bloodline as an ability score (also
> because I haven`t had the idea fully fleshed out.)

Personally, I`m leery about using a class based approach to bloodlines.
If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels?
Are they forced to take levels in the "scion" class after committing
a major bloodtheft? If they gain a new bloodline do they get their
old scion levels back? Does it depend upon the Strength of the new
bloodline? Can scion levels be "invested" to an heir? -- This is
not to say that such a system could not work... just that the effort
required to "fit it in" to the setting is non-trivial.

I don`t feel that these issues haunt the template/ECL based system.
If the scion _has_ the template, then they have the ECL (and thus
spend more XP to advance in normal class level). If they loose the
template, the ECL goes away and they now advance as per a normal
character. I suppose you could consider the "ECL-based" XP "loss"
to be equivalent to paying an XP cost for a set of magical effects
used during that level.

On the other-hand, the primary problem with the ECL-based system IMHO
is the lack of resolution. I`ve seen people recommending entirely
ECL-based solutions. This is fine if you feel that bloodability
related "goodies" range from +1 to +7 ECL. I, however, don`t feel that
is the case. A rough comparision of what a +1 or +2 ECL purchase you
as a race (say, FR Genesai or Drow) Vs. what you might expect from
bloodabilities finds in in roughly the same ballpark.

The team has tried to address this issue by adding in the additional
resolution as tied to the Bld ability score. This is fairly standard
in "class based" abilities as well. The utility of a "level" of paladin,
for example, might vary greatly between characters (depending primarily
on Charisma).

- Doom

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[doom]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 09:26:03PM +0100, Mourn wrote:
> For example, let`s take a minor scion (Ftr5, Bld 18) and a major
> scion (Ftr5, Bld 12). According to the rules, the minor scion is an ECL
> 5, and the major scion is an ECL 6. The minor scion has a +4 modifier,
> and the major scion has a +1 modifier. The minor scion has 3 bloodline
> abilities, all minor, and the major scion has one minor ability.
> The minor scion is obviously the stronger of the two, due to the
> abilities gained and the strength of the score, and the major scion is
> the weaker. However, due to the rules, the major scion is considered a
> higher ECL.

Your point is well made, but it is worth considering that analagous
arguements can be made for class-based ablities as well. For example,
a character with 20 levels of wizard and and INT of 9 can`t cast any
spells. This would be a "poorly designed" character IMHO, but a legal
one by the rules. I would feel the same is true of your example. It
is a legitimate concern, but not unusual nor crippling.

- Doom

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by doom
Your point is well made, but it is worth considering that analagous
arguements can be made for class-based ablities as well. For example,
a character with 20 levels of wizard and and INT of 9 can`t cast any
spells. This would be a "poorly designed" character IMHO, but a legal
one by the rules. I would feel the same is true of your example. It
is a legitimate concern, but not unusual nor crippling.


True, but the Bloodline ability score and the strength derivation are both supposed to reflect the strength of a bloodline. This means that they should match up. A character with a low Bloodline score should be of a tainted or minor bloodline, while a character with a high Bloodline score should be of a major or great bloodline.

The way the template is written, it doesn't always happen this way, though. I am just trying to offer suggestions and arguments for a more cohesive system.

[geeman]

At 05:13 PM 3/11/2003 -0500, Doom wrote:

>Personally, I`m leery about using a class based approach to bloodlines.

To be honest I am too, but I have the same reservations with making it a
character class (or similar to one) that I do to making it an ability
score. As an ability score there are IMO actually a few more problems than
as a character class. All told, though, I think my favorite option is to
do it in the "four step" process with bloodline ability points that I`ve
been harping on about recently.

>If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels?

Yes, that`s the way it would work. I hadn`t thought of any reason why it
wouldn`t function the same way it does in the original rules. Bloodline
can vary up and down more than a typical character class, which does make
it a little strange when portrayed as a character class, but the same could
be said of bloodline as an ability score, couldn`t it?

>Are they forced to take levels in the "scion" class after committing
>a major bloodtheft?

I don`t know if forced is really the word I would use. Because the Scion
as a class got level increases based on bloodline score rather than XP they
would technically get a possible increase in both Scion levels for the
bloodline increase from the act of bloodtheft and a possible level increase
in a regular character class from the CR award for defeating their
bloodtheft victim.

>If they gain a new bloodline do they get their old scion levels
>back? Does it depend upon the Strength of the new bloodline? Can scion
>levels be "invested" to an heir? -- This is
>not to say that such a system could not work... just that the effort
>required to "fit it in" to the setting is non-trivial.

In order I`d say no, no and yes, pretty much how it works in the original
system. There`s nothing inherit to bloodline as a character class that
necessarily changes the way that stuff would work. In the same way that
bloodline as an ability score doesn`t replace the concept entirely, that is
it doesn`t replace the role of inheritance, bloodtheft, etc. bloodline as
a character class is handled the same way. The levels of the character
class fit into place the same way they do for the ability score--according
to the relative strength and level of the bloodline score.

The merits of bloodline as a character class are that:

1. It is a bit easier to figure it into the ECL system since there`s a 1:1
relationship between ECL and scion level. It`s a bit arguable what the
actual effectiveness of a scion level might be, but that`s subject to most
of the arguments regarding particular character classes, many of which are
circumstantial. A ranger is more useful in a forest, a scion is more
useful at the head of a domain.

2. Issues of bloodtheft and inheritance do need to be addressed, but I`d
suggest that the system is "more 3e" in several regards. When it comes to
bloodtheft, for instance, there is a system of negative levels in 3e that
could be used as the model for how scion levels are lost. When it comes to
issues of increasing bloodline strength it conceptually work the same way
levelling up does except that bloodline strength takes the place of
experience points.

>I don`t feel that these issues haunt the template/ECL based system.
>If the scion _has_ the template, then they have the ECL (and thus
>spend more XP to advance in normal class level). If they loose the
>template, the ECL goes away and they now advance as per a normal
>character. I suppose you could consider the "ECL-based" XP "loss"
>to be equivalent to paying an XP cost for a set of magical effects
>used during that level.

Do characters with the template in the playtest document not lose that
template if they lose their bloodline? Should they be killed in an act of
bloodtheft and then raised from the dead, don`t they also lose their template?

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> True, but the Bloodline ability score and the strength derivation
> are both supposed to reflect the strength of a bloodline. This means
> that they should match up. A character with a low Bloodline score
> should be of a tainted or minor bloodline, while a character with a
> high Bloodline score should be of a major or great bloodline.
>

Well, as demonstrated here, they did not add up in previous editions. For
some reason, Bloodline ability score and the strength derivation were two
separate things. Silly, really, and I never played it that way - I used a
simple categorization instead, and I think that is what we should use in 3E.
But this is not the path the official "document" has taken.

Overall, I think the new rules are too complex. Especially the domain
rules - there was more than eough bookkeeping in the old ones, whyintroduce
more?

/Carl



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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman

I don`t know if forced is really the word I would use. Because the Scion
as a class got level increases based on bloodline score rather than XP they
would technically get a possible increase in both Scion levels for the
bloodline increase from the act of bloodtheft and a possible level increase
in a regular character class from the CR award for defeating their
bloodtheft victim.


The merits of bloodline as a character class are that:

1. It is a bit easier to figure it into the ECL system since there`s a 1:1
relationship between ECL and scion level. It`s a bit arguable what the
actual effectiveness of a scion level might be, but that`s subject to most
of the arguments regarding particular character classes, many of which are
circumstantial. A ranger is more useful in a forest, a scion is more
useful at the head of a domain.

2. Issues of bloodtheft and inheritance do need to be addressed, but I`d
suggest that the system is "more 3e" in several regards. When it comes to
bloodtheft, for instance, there is a system of negative levels in 3e that
could be used as the model for how scion levels are lost. When it comes to
issues of increasing bloodline strength it conceptually work the same way
levelling up does except that bloodline strength takes the place of
experience points.



If you look at your statements here they seem to be a bit contradictory. The ECL system using the scion levels as you've proposed isn't a 1:1 relationship since they are not exp based. ECLs are, they "force" a penalty to make up for some special abilities that are gained in exchange. The amount of the ECL adjustment depends on the relative "power" of the abilities gained (this is the application of ECL modifiers in general).:)

[geeman]

irdeggman writes:

> The ECL system using the scion levels as you`ve
> proposed isn`t a 1:1 relationship since they are not exp based.
> ECLs are, they "force" a penalty to make up for some special
> abilities that are gained in exchange. The amount of the ECL
> adjustment depends on the relative "power" of the abilities
> gained (this is the application of ECL modifiers in general).:)

Lots of things that provide an ECL aren`t XP level based. Most of the
templates provide an ECL. The templates in the BRCS Playtest provide an
ECL. They aren`t XP based. By reflecting bloodline with all the features
of a character class the ECL is, at least, much more easily quantified since
each level has all the features of a character level.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

What I meant by exp based ECLs is that the character with the ECL adjustment now has to gain more exp to get to the next level. For example a 1st level character normally needs 1000 exp to go to second level, if he has an ECL adjustment of +1 he is treated as a 2nd level for this purpose and would need 3000 exp points in order to gain an additional level (for class/level based benefits). All of the "official" ECL based concepts work this way. The proposed additional scion level soley based on blood (ability) score would tend to work outside of these parameters. If the EL of the character is supposed to be the sum of his class levels and his scion levels it would fall short (i.e., his EL would progress rather rapidly from scion levels), if it supposed to have an ECL based on a range of scores than it doesn't fit any of the "known" examples in "offiical" text.

If using character-type levels for scions (ala Savage Species) there can also be a problem to overcome, SS states that before a character can gain a level in another class he must first progress through all of the monster class levels. For example a centaur character would have to progress throgh 6 levels of centaur monster class before he could acquire a level of ranger (one of his favored classes). This is a "new" concept and since SS is supposed to be forward compatable with 3.5 I believe we can look forward to more of the same.:)

[geeman]

irdeggman writes:

> What I meant by exp based ECLs is that the character with the ECL
> adjustment now has to gain more exp to get to the next level.

Ah, I see. Quite right. That is bit of a snag, huh? Savage Species does
present some options and explanation for how one might handle that sort of
thing and the templates that can get added onto characters in that text tend
to be at least as dramatic as a few scion levels.

I suppose the simplest solution to this kind of thing would be to say that
the ECL for scion levels is for the purpose of determining encounter levels
and say it doesn`t count towards XP in a similar manner to the way prestige
class levels don`t provoke multi-class XP penalties. The scion as a
character class does break many of the conventional rules regarding the
class sytem (just as any interpretation must, I guess) so it may be the
easiest way to handle the issue.

Gary

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[oximoron]

I think that ECL effectivly replaces the second editon birthright standard of 10% xp boost for unblooded charecters. ECL for scions should be kept not as a balancing factor but as a deterrant for players to not always choose to be blooded(main problem with 3rd edition in my opinion is that its too balanced, it loses a certain dynamic feel from 2nd edition, although I am devout 3rd edition fan) also if you balance a system too much it looses its epic feeling which is all D&D is supposed to be about.

Epic fantasy anyone

also scion levels I think is a ridiculus idea
ECL based on Bloodline score is a disaster waiting to happen, players would avoid gaining bloodline strength couse they would fear gaing ECL´s which is not what the game is supposed to be about

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Doom

Personally, I`m leery about using a class based approach to bloodlines. If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels? Are they forced to take levels in the "scion" class after committing a major bloodtheft? If they gain a new bloodline do they get their old scion levels back? Does it depend upon the Strength of the new bloodline? Can scion levels be "invested" to an heir? -- This is not to say that such a system could not work... just that the effort required to "fit it in" to the setting is non-trivial.
In this I completely agree with you...


The scion as a character class: NO!!! This can't fit. The BR D20 team had reasons why they thought of a "template". A template can be added to any race. You gain advantages (blood abilities, HP) and you MIGHT get disadvantages (say ECL, weaknesses, etc.), but you needn't to take levels (further d4 HP)!!! You AUTOMATICALY gain something of this template IF you advance in level of whatever (monster HD, warrior, wizard etc.). You needn't to "waste" levels for "scion"...

I further don't think that you MUST take levels of awnshegh or ershegh (if you have bloodtrait/ bloodform), you automatically gain powers too. They should only get MORE disadvantages (higher ECL, harder vulnerabilities, alignment change, whatever)...

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 17:09, Gary wrote:

At 05:13 PM 3/11/2003 -0500, Doom wrote:

>Personally, I`m leery about using a class based approach to bloodlines.

To be honest I am too, but I have the same reservations with making it a
character class (or similar to one) that I do to making it an ability
score. As an ability score there are IMO actually a few more problems than
as a character class. All told, though, I think my favorite option is to
do it in the "four step" process with bloodline ability points that I`ve
been harping on about recently.

>If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels?

Yes, that`s the way it would work. I hadn`t thought of any reason why it
wouldn`t function the same way it does in the original rules. Bloodline
can vary up and down more than a typical character class, which does make
it a little strange when portrayed as a character class, but the same could
be said of bloodline as an ability score, couldn`t it?

There is precedent in characters being drained levels by undead.
(Although I`m not a fan of that approach of undead attack).


>Are they forced to take levels in the "scion" class after committing
>a major bloodtheft?

I don`t know if forced is really the word I would use. Because the Scion
as a class got level increases based on bloodline score rather than XP they
would technically get a possible increase in both Scion levels for the
bloodline increase from the act of bloodtheft and a possible level increase
in a regular character class from the CR award for defeating their
bloodtheft victim

I`d rather say that just because you have a bloodline doesn`t mean that
you have to be a Scion -- just that it is a potential class open to you.
Gaining a bloodline through bloodtheft would therefore open a new
possibility for the character.


>If they gain a new bloodline do they get their old scion levels
>back? Does it depend upon the Strength of the new bloodline? Can scion
>levels be "invested" to an heir? -- This is
>not to say that such a system could not work... just that the effort
>required to "fit it in" to the setting is non-trivial.

In order I`d say no, no and yes, pretty much how it works in the original
system. There`s nothing inherit to bloodline as a character class that
necessarily changes the way that stuff would work. In the same way that
bloodline as an ability score doesn`t replace the concept entirely, that is
it doesn`t replace the role of inheritance, bloodtheft, etc. bloodline as
a character class is handled the same way. The levels of the character
class fit into place the same way they do for the ability score--according
to the relative strength and level of the bloodline score.

The merits of bloodline as a character class are that:

1. It is a bit easier to figure it into the ECL system since there`s a 1:1
relationship between ECL and scion level. It`s a bit arguable what the
actual effectiveness of a scion level might be, but that`s subject to most
of the arguments regarding particular character classes, many of which are
circumstantial. A ranger is more useful in a forest, a scion is more
useful at the head of a domain.

2. Issues of bloodtheft and inheritance do need to be addressed, but I`d
suggest that the system is "more 3e" in several regards. When it comes to
bloodtheft, for instance, there is a system of negative levels in 3e that
could be used as the model for how scion levels are lost. When it comes to
issues of increasing bloodline strength it conceptually work the same way
levelling up does except that bloodline strength takes the place of
experience points.

>I don`t feel that these issues haunt the template/ECL based system.
>If the scion _has_ the template, then they have the ECL (and thus
>spend more XP to advance in normal class level). If they loose the
>template, the ECL goes away and they now advance as per a normal
>character. I suppose you could consider the "ECL-based" XP "loss"
>to be equivalent to paying an XP cost for a set of magical effects
>used during that level.

Do characters with the template in the playtest document not lose that
template if they lose their bloodline? Should they be killed in an act of
bloodtheft and then raised from the dead, don`t they also lose their template?

Gary

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[doom]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2003 at 10:09:13PM -0800, Gary wrote:
> >If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels?
>
> Yes, that`s the way it would work. I hadn`t thought of any reason why it
> wouldn`t function the same way it does in the original rules.

This would seem to be a problem to me.

For example (level based approached):

A 10th level character becomes blooded. They spend 10,000 XP (when
they have it) on their next advancement. Until then, they don`t gain
the advantages of their new "level". If they loose their ability
immediately afterwards (perhaps by having it destroyed) they are out
10,000 XP for a very brief period of "usefulness". One would assume
that the character would also loose some skill points (a level
associated trait), maximum skill ranks, and be subject to any other
number of level-based difficulties.

Same example (ECL based approached):

A 10th level character becomes blooded. They now have an ECL (say +1).
They have immediate access to their powers. In order to advance to
their next level (in any class) they have to spend an additional 1,000
XP. Additionally, they receive slightly less XP per encounter (as they
are marginally "tougher" than before they were a scion). If they loose
their bloodline, then the template is simple removed.

--

IMHO an ECL-based approach applies a "cool tax". You lose a fixed (but
small) amount of XP over the period of being blooded. If you loose the
bloodline soon thereafter quickly, then you pay little in lost XP. If
the character is blooded throughout their development then the total XP
costs are equivalent - but ECL-based templates are DESIGNED to be
easily added/subtracted to characters during play. Levels are not.

In short, I prefer a system in which should a PC be invested with the
bloodline of their deseceased liege would say:

+ Wow. Cool new responsibilities and powers! (But I have to pay for
them... that ECL is going to hurt).

- not -

+ What?!? I have to take _how_ many levels of scion? But I was going
use my next fighter level to <Random Feat>!!! And now I`m can`t use
my next character-level based general feat the way that I had planned
because I won`t have the pre-reqs. This totally screws up my
character progression.

Granted, this is but one (rather extreme) example, but I hope that
it illustrates my concerns regarding a "class-level based" approach
to bloodlines.

- Doom

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[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:
> Same example (ECL based approached):
>
> A 10th level character becomes blooded. They now have an ECL (say +1).
> They have immediate access to their powers. In order to advance to
> their next level (in any class) they have to spend an additional 1,000
> XP. Additionally, they receive slightly less XP per encounter (as they
> are marginally "tougher" than before they were a scion). If they loose
> their bloodline, then the template is simple removed.

I don`t think that`s not the way ECLs work. You`re right that it would
take more experience to get to the next level. You`re wrong that they
receive less XP per encounter. XP for an encounter is calculated for the
group and then divided up among them. A group of 3 10th level chars and a
10th level scion (ECL 11) would be considered a 10th level group for
determining experience (mean of the four, rounded), and the scion would
receive the same as everyone else.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Yair]

Between core classes and prestige classes (and, in my case, magic-item classes as I am using Swords of Our Fathers) PCs have way too much to spend their levels on. It's bad enough to need to spend levels to benefit from the Bloodtrait or Bloodform blood abilities, don't add up any more please. My players want to progress in their classes, and maybe steal a little bloodline on the side. They don't want to progress only in their bloodline, nor give up progressing in it to develop their class abilities. Let them do both, it is more fun.

[irdeggman]

DanMcSorley
You are correct in that all experience is divided equally among the party members (love this in 3rd ed by the way) but the effect is that the person with an ECL modifier has more exp to gain in order to level up.

[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Yair wrote:
> Between core classes and prestige classes (and, in my case,
> magic-item classes as I am using Swords of Our Fathers) PCs have way
> too much to spend their levels on. It`s bad enough to need to spend
> levels to benefit from the Bloodtrait or Bloodform blood abilities,
> don`t add up any more please. My players want to progress in their
> classes, and maybe steal a little bloodline on the side. They don`t
> want to progress only in their bloodline, nor give up progressing in
> it to develop their class abilities. Let them do both, it is more fun.

How is an ECL template different from putting in a `real` level of scion
for them to take? That`s how Savage Species works out, templates with
ECLs get broken down into level progressions.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ecliptic]

Here is about 5 or 10 minutes work and it shows how I think the Scion class should be. Ofcourse with adjustments and balancing.

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.rtf

[Green Knight]

Indeed.

Any ECL shifting template could be thought of as being a separate
monster class in itself. Not something everyone wants to bother with,
but quite possible.

Just imagine the ogre half-dragon. He has two monster classes, Ogre
6/Black Half-Dragon 3 for example...later he picks up a couple of
fighter levels, qualifies for a prestige class, and eventually acquires
a major bloodline through bloodtheft.

Our friend is now an Ogre 6/Black Half-Dragon 3/Fighter 3/Backguard
2/Scion 1, for a total level of 15...quite fun actually.

Point is, anything that gives an ECL shift, including a template, can be
dealt with using the guidelines in SS - if you want to that is.

Bjørn

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of daniel mcsorley
Sent: 13. mars 2003 22:07
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: Chapter 2 Poll 3 - ECLs [36#1418]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Yair wrote:
> Between core classes and prestige classes (and, in my case,
> magic-item classes as I am using Swords of Our Fathers) PCs have way
> too much to spend their levels on. It`s bad enough to need to spend
> levels to benefit from the Bloodtrait or Bloodform blood abilities,
> don`t add up any more please. My players want to progress in their
> classes, and maybe steal a little bloodline on the side. They don`t
> want to progress only in their bloodline, nor give up progressing in
> it to develop their class abilities. Let them do both, it is more fun.

How is an ECL template different from putting in a `real` level of scion
for them to take? That`s how Savage Species works out, templates with
ECLs get broken down into level progressions.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ecliptic]

How possibly could you use ECL? Roll 3d6 for your BS ability score and the higher it is the higher your ECL is? ECL simply won't work. It HAS to be class based.

I would like to see BR introduced into 3E as easy as possible. Start throwing in complicated crap, and it defeats the whole purpose.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by ecliptic


How possibly could you use ECL? Roll 3d6 for your BS ability score and the higher it is the higher your ECL is? ECL simply won't work. It HAS to be class based.

I would like to see BR introduced into 3E as easy as possible. Start throwing in complicated crap, and it defeats the whole purpose.

Is this referring to any particular post, or is it just slagging the majority? The main point in my previous post was that SS says: +1 ECL = 1 "Monster" Class level. So an ECL shift could just as easily be interepreted as a class, possibly the "Scion" class.

As for a 1-20 class; that is not the way to go I think. Assuming there is an ECL shift, I can imagine a true line getting a maximum of ECL 5, or 5 levels of Scion. Any more levels than that, and you completely screw whatever other classes your character may want to have.

I must also point out that (in my mind) ECL is a pretty simple concept...

[Birthright-L]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about how ECL modifiers work here. An
ECL modifier of +1 is, experience-wise, exactly the same thing as a class
level in some class.

Say you are level 10. You gain a bloodline that merits you an ECL modifier
of +1. Either, the DM can now reduce you to a level 9 character with an ECL
modifier of +1 (Effective Character Level is still 10), or he can be kind
and let you keep your class level despite your deficiency in xp, in which
case you will not advance to Class level 11 until you have experience points
enough to advance to Character level 12, at which point your effective
character level would be 11 (class level) +1 (ECL modifier) = 12.

That is why it is called Effective Character Level Modifier - or ECL
modifier. Your Effective Character Level (ECL) is your character level + ECL
Modifier.

The same would apply if the DM gave you a class in the new prestige class
"Scion" - it is exactly the same thing. Merely uses a slightly different
mechanic.

/Carl


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[doom]

On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 10:21:11AM +0100, Stephen Starfox wrote:
> There seems to be a misunderstanding about how ECL modifiers work here. An
> ECL modifier of +1 is, experience-wise, exactly the same thing as a class
> level in some class.
>
> Say you are level 10. You gain a bloodline that merits you an ECL modifier
> of +1. Either, the DM can now reduce you to a level 9 character with an ECL
> modifier of +1 (Effective Character Level is still 10), or he can be kind
> and let you keep your class level despite your deficiency in xp, in which
> case you will not advance to Class level 11 until you have experience points
> enough to advance to Character level 12, at which point your effective
> character level would be 11 (class level) +1 (ECL modifier) = 12.

I would tend to disagree with you here. I agree that, at
character creation, actual class levels are recommended as being
"traded off" for ECLs to maintain relative in-party balance. I do
not, however, agree with your interpretation of gaining a ECL-bearing
template in game.

If a character gained a template with ECLs, there is no inherent
mandate to decrease their standard class levels in order to maintain
equity. In fact, I would argue that treating ECLs in that manner would
detract from their usefulness.

- Doom

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[doom]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 12:07:07PM -0500, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> I don`t think that`s not the way ECLs work. You`re right that it would
> take more experience to get to the next level. You`re wrong that they
> receive less XP per encounter. XP for an encounter is calculated for the
> group and then divided up among them. A group of 3 10th level chars and a
> 10th level scion (ECL 11) would be considered a 10th level group for
> determining experience (mean of the four, rounded), and the scion would
> receive the same as everyone else.

True. In examples where the character ECL isn`t enough to change the
"average party level" then there will be no effective difference to
the party`s accumulated XP.

- Doom

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[geeman]

At 11:54 AM 3/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>For example (level based approached):
>
>A 10th level character becomes blooded. They spend 10,000 XP (when
>they have it) on their next advancement. Until then, they don`t gain
>the advantages of their new "level". If they loose their ability
>immediately afterwards (perhaps by having it destroyed) they are out
>10,000 XP for a very brief period of "usefulness". One would assume
>that the character would also loose some skill points (a level
>associated trait), maximum skill ranks, and be subject to any other
>number of level-based difficulties.

>Same example (ECL based approached):
>
>A 10th level character becomes blooded. They now have an ECL (say +1).
>They have immediate access to their powers. In order to advance to
>their next level (in any class) they have to spend an additional 1,000
>XP. Additionally, they receive slightly less XP per encounter (as they
>are marginally "tougher" than before they were a scion). If they loose
>their bloodline, then the template is simple removed.

A few points in response to this. First, I don`t see how it`s really game
mechanically different from the system of bloodline as an ability score
presented in the BRCS. If a 10th level character gains a bloodline that
has a +1 ECL modifier he has to advance in the same way as he would if they
gained a bloodline as a character level. All the effects of ECL are the
same in either system. There is a difference in that the relative value of
an ECL is somewhat questionable in the BRCS. +1 ECL for each step in
bloodline strength, which gives the character +4 to his ability score and
usually one sometimes two additional blood abilities. A character who has
a 8 bld who takes a major bloodline (+1 ECL) improving his bloodline to 12
gains 1 minor blood ability. Another character who has a 10 bld who takes
a major bloodline increases his bloodline score to 14 and gains 1 minor and
1 major blood ability. The cost difference between those two characters is
2 ability score points.

Granted, there are only four (five if 0 counts) levels of ECL adjustments
in the BRCS; +0 to +4 whereas bloodline as a character class gives the
character a ECL adjustment on a 1:1 basis. However, the specifics of the
bloodline as a character level system are still pretty much at the first
draft stage, and it could be adjusted here and there.

Excuse my musing but it`s interesting... when I post something there are
certain responses I expect to get but that never come, and other times the
responses are things I wouldn`t have thought of in a month of Sundays. The
problem with bloodline as a character class being ECL is a pretty good
example. What I _thought_ everyone would object to is that using such a
system the Gorgon needs at least another 15d4 HD....

Second, if bloodline is reflected as a character class rather than an
ability score it`s important to note that the character who gets an ECL
adjustment actually gains another character level. He gets the HD, BAB,
saves, skill points and special abilities (in this case blood
abilities.) The class features other than special/blood abilities are all
at the lowest progression possible in order to "balance" the class against
the power of the blood abilities and access to the domain level of play (I
still think only blooded characters should have access to the domain level,
though I may very well be in the minority) but he has in every respect of
the class system increased an actual level.

Third, let`s assume the bloodline as an ability score system is being
used. We have the same PC (10th level, +1 ECL in effect from his "major"
bloodline.) If that character loses his bloodline the template is removed,
as is his Bld score. Depending on how many ability score points were put
into that score you could wind up with a rather feeble guy.

[Snip]
>Granted, this is but one (rather extreme) example, but I hope that it
>illustrates my concerns regarding a "class-level based" approach to bloodlines.

I would hope that the benefits of being a scion would be greater than the
benefits of taking a "standard" level in another class, so no one who got a
level (or three) as a scion would complain. In most cases, however, I
think it`s six of one, half dozen of the other since ECL adjustments apply
to both systems, so the PC who gets anything other than a minor bloodline
from his liege using bloodline as an ability score is going to have the
same issue. Not as dramatically, perhaps, as he would if he gained the
same bloodline using a character class system, but he also wouldn`t gain
any of the other class features to compensate.

Gary

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[doom]

On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 11:03:52AM -0800, Gary wrote:
> A few points in response to this. First, I don`t see how it`s really game
> mechanically different from the system of bloodline as an ability score
> presented in the BRCS.

I think that in my attempt to make a concise and complete argument that
I may have oversimplified to the point of not making my argument clear
at all. It wouldn`t be the first time. ;)

The net "message" that I was trying to get across was this: There _is_
a big difference between ECLs and character levels. I agree that the
"XP" cost is about the same for a chracter that starts (and ends) play
as a scion, but suggest that the ECL-based approach is far more elegant
and introduces fewer problems for adding/subtracting during play.

I will now raise _one_ example (of the many possible) to illustrate the
point. Number of skill points (and maximum skill ranks) are class
level dependent, but not ECL dependent. If you gain/loose a bloodline
template ECL this will have no effect on your skill ranks. On the
contrary, if you gain/loose "levels" in a class-based bloodline system
then you gain skill points and change your maximum skill ranks for
_all_ skills. If you loose your bloodline you also the potential of
dropping skill ranks in non-bloodpower related skills! Again.. this is
but one example of the sorts of problems that a class-based approach
would have to deal with.


- Doom

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[geeman]

At 03:20 PM 3/14/2003 -0500, Doom wrote:

>I will now raise _one_ example (of the many possible) to illustrate the
>point. Number of skill points (and maximum skill ranks) are class
>level dependent, but not ECL dependent. If you gain/loose a bloodline
>template ECL this will have no effect on your skill ranks.

That`s a good point, and one that wasn`t addressed in the post in which I
presented my scion class. What to do with max ranks and such level based
features (1 feat per 3 levels, ability score increases, etc.) of characters
as they level up? In the case of a character who could lose scion levels
relatively easily, what to do with their max ranks (and other character
features) when that happens?

The solution that I used was just say that scion levels don`t count as
character levels for the purpose of max ranks, feat acquisition, ability
score increases, etc. The concept is, after all, a non-experience point
based character class, so it could be differentiated from the typical
character level system without too much rationalization. As I had
originally written it up, the idea was that the scion as a character class
got his own skill points that were to be spent on special, "scion only"
skills that did things like sense/discern other bloodlines, or allow scions
to engage in a sort of Highlander-esque "psychic duel" before (or in lieu
of) regular combat. I assumed max ranks for those skills would be scion
level +3 rather than character level, so it cut both ways.

In fact, during playtesting of the scion as a character class I was tempted
not to count scion levels for the purpose of XP requirements for levelling
up in "normal" character classes too. That one`s much more of a leap, and
not very easily rationalized game mechanically. Thematically, it`s easy to
rationalize it (why should a scion learn less from encounters than another
PC?) but it makes less sense when looked at from the POV of the rules.

Personally, the method I prefer to express bloodlines is the "4 step"
process and blood ability points rather than either reflecting them as an
ability score or as a character class. I did really like the "scion only"
skills that accompanied the scion character class since they were just
_that_ cool. When using another system of reflecting bloodline, however,
players seem reluctant to spent their skill points on a scion only skill
for some reason. Some folks have mentioned making blood abilities
themselves skill-based, which is an interesting idea. I`m curious to see
how they might do that.

Skills are probably one of the areas of ranted on about the most in
3e. Here`s yet another screed:

In general, I`m starting to think that one of the problems with skills in
3e/D20 has more to do with the system itself. The more I think on it, the
less I like the way max ranks and the number of skill points at 1st level
works. That is, the designers wanted to make the "typical" check DC 15 so
max ranks is character level +3 in order to make that check about a 50/50
shot for the "average" 1st level character who had spent 4 skill points on
a class skill or for a character who had a 18 (+4) in the key ability for
that skill. In practice, of course, there are a whole bunch of additional
modifiers involved in making skill checks including circumstantial
modifiers, bonuses from feats, racial bonuses, synergy, etc. It may be
unusual for a 1st level character to have a total modifiers of +15 on a
particular skill check, but not unheard of. Making "average" skill checks
DC 15 is, in effect, not very accurate or useful, particularly since
characters can so quickly rise to extraordinary levels of experience and,
along with it, levels of competence in skills. With the addition of an
epic level of play (before 3e an "epic level" always meant around 12th
level to me) in which the rules take quite seriously DC 50 or higher
checks, "normalizing" the numbers at 15 for 1st level characters makes even
less sense.

The other thing is kind of a personal take on what a 1st level character
is. IMO, a 1st level character shouldn`t be all that competent. Even PCs,
who are generally considered to be extraordinary people, start of around
16-20 years old (for humans) and I just don`t think the capacities of
inexperienced individuals should be the basis for determining the "average"
difficulty of a skill check.

Also, is a kind of correlation in the game mechanics. There is, in effect,
no difference between AC and DC in the game. They get used for different
purposes, of course, but they are by and large the same concept and use the
same game mechanic; a number that must be met or exceeded in order to
accomplish a particular task. Roll a d20, add modifiers. Why then does a
1st level PC get the potential equivalent of a +4 BAB on skill checks when
that represents the highest BAB progression for any character class? Using
those numbers a fighter might be more competent with his ride skill than
with his sword, and can remain constantly better at riding than fighting
throughout his levelling up process.

Finally, the way max ranks and starting skill points are determined now is
just kind of funky. X+3 or (A+B)x4 (+4 for humans.) So what I`m thinking
of doing is making max ranks = character level and doing away with the x4
multiplier in skill points at first level. Simpler, cleaner numbers with a
minimum of math required.

Gary

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by geeman
The solution that I used was just say that scion levels don`t count as
character levels for the purpose of max ranks, feat acquisition, ability
score increases, etc. The concept is, after all, a non-experience point
based character class, so it could be differentiated from the typical
character level system without too much rationalization. As I had
originally written it up, the idea was that the scion as a character class
got his own skill points that were to be spent on special, "scion only"
skills that did things like sense/discern other bloodlines, or allow scions
to engage in a sort of Highlander-esque "psychic duel" before (or in lieu
of) regular combat. I assumed max ranks for those skills would be scion
level +3 rather than character level, so it cut both ways.


Wait... didn't you say something about not liking the skills system due to the level +3 max, and that you desired "simpler, cleaner numbers with a minimum of math required"? Doesn't this add twice as much math, since now you have to track not only multiple character classes, feats, skills, spells, granted powers, class abilities, but also an entirely separate class system?

So, I have to keep track of my fighter levels, my cleric levels, my feats, my skills, granted powers, spells, but now also have to keep track of this class-that-is-not-a-class in a completely different manner, managing its skills-that-are-not-skills and its blood abilities.


In fact, during playtesting of the scion as a character class I was tempted
not to count scion levels for the purpose of XP requirements for levelling
up in "normal" character classes too. That one`s much more of a leap, and
not very easily rationalized game mechanically. Thematically, it`s easy to
rationalize it (why should a scion learn less from encounters than another
PC?) but it makes less sense when looked at from the POV of the rules.

And there's the problem... you playtested your own material. The reason companies get outside playtesters to go through thousands of situations in the rules is because they don't think like the person who wrote it... by playtesting your own rules, you don't really notice problems with the way your write mechanics, and you don't see problems with things that others do.


Personally, the method I prefer to express bloodlines is the "4 step"
process and blood ability points rather than either reflecting them as an
ability score or as a character class. I did really like the "scion only"
skills that accompanied the scion character class since they were just
_that_ cool. When using another system of reflecting bloodline, however,
players seem reluctant to spent their skill points on a scion only skill
for some reason. Some folks have mentioned making blood abilities
themselves skill-based, which is an interesting idea. I`m curious to see
how they might do that.

Go over and take a look at the Bloodlines thread for an example.


Skills are probably one of the areas of ranted on about the most in
3e. Here`s yet another screed:

In general, I`m starting to think that one of the problems with skills in
3e/D20 has more to do with the system itself. The more I think on it, the
less I like the way max ranks and the number of skill points at 1st level
works.

Much better than 2nd Edition, where having proficiency in some kind of craft doesn't really make you any good at it... this system shows that you progress in your chosen trade, gaining more and more ability as you go. Thus, skill ranks increase with level.


That is, the designers wanted to make the "typical" check DC 15 so
max ranks is character level +3 in order to make that check about a 50/50
shot for the "average" 1st level character who had spent 4 skill points on
a class skill or for a character who had a 18 (+4) in the key ability for
that skill.

If that 1st-level character is truly "average," then he would fail a DC 15 check according to probability. An average ability score is 10 (+0 modifier), which means that the average check would be a 14, which is just shy of that 15 DC.


In practice, of course, there are a whole bunch of additional
modifiers involved in making skill checks including circumstantial
modifiers, bonuses from feats, racial bonuses, synergy, etc. It may be
unusual for a 1st level character to have a total modifiers of +15 on a
particular skill check, but not unheard of. Making "average" skill checks
DC 15 is, in effect, not very accurate or useful, particularly since
characters can so quickly rise to extraordinary levels of experience and,
along with it, levels of competence in skills.

It is pretty unusual for a character to have a +15 bonus on a skill check at 1st-level, unless the DM interferes with modifiers pretty often.

1st-level halfling fighter w/Str 16 (+3), Jump +4 would have a total modifier of +9. This takes into account the halfling's racial bonus. It would take an additional +6 worth of modifiers for this character to have a +15, and the race itself is geared towards Jump


With the addition of an epic level of play (before 3e an "epic level" always meant around 12th level to me) in which the rules take quite seriously DC 50 or higher
checks, "normalizing" the numbers at 15 for 1st level characters makes even
less sense.

The core rules doesn't take the epic level rules into account, as the core rules are built to handle levels 1-20, not above. Also, the "average" DC for an epic check is nowhere as low as 15, so it's not really a problem. If you've read the Epic Level Handbook, you'd know this.

And you think that's bad? 1st-level halfling fighter w/a 20 Dex (+5), Weapon Focus (dagger) can throw a masterwork dagger and gain a +10 on attack rolls at 1st level, without any sort of situational modifiers.


The other thing is kind of a personal take on what a 1st level character
is. IMO, a 1st level character shouldn`t be all that competent. Even PCs,
who are generally considered to be extraordinary people, start of around
16-20 years old (for humans) and I just don`t think the capacities of
inexperienced individuals should be the basis for determining the "average"
difficulty of a skill check.

So, according to you and your reasoning, a person that is between 16-20 (1st-level) should not be able to climb a tree. A tree is a DC 15 climb, and the "average" person of that level with +4 ranks and no Strength bonus (average Strength is 10, after all) would not be able to climb that tree very well. Yet, as a 6 year old child, I could climb trees very easily. With your system, the 1st-level character would have to have an 18 (+4) Strength to succeed, with the +1 rank of Climb they would have.

However, I have seen plenty of 16-20 year olds (and even younger in fact) that could climb a natural rock wall, but according to you, it should be impossible (DC 25).


Also, is a kind of correlation in the game mechanics. There is, in effect,
no difference between AC and DC in the game. They get used for different
purposes, of course, but they are by and large the same concept and use the
same game mechanic; a number that must be met or exceeded in order to
accomplish a particular task.

Well, when they released 3rd Edition, they stated that the DC for an attack roll is the AC of the creature, but AC is not just a DC. If you use the Defense Roll variant, you can roll your AC as opposed to be it being used as a DC.


Roll a d20, add modifiers. Why then does a 1st level PC get the potential equivalent of a +4 BAB on skill checks when that represents the highest BAB progression for any character class? Using those numbers a fighter might be more competent with his ride skill than with his sword, and can remain constantly better at riding than fighting
throughout his levelling up process.

ACs rather go higher than 20 at low levels, and rarely go higher than 30 at mid-to-high levels. DCs, however, go higher than that much more often, making most skill checks more difficult than attack rolls.

Here's a 1st-level fighter built with the standard array (Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8). With 4 ranks of Ride, he has a +6 skill modifier. With a masterwork weapon and Weapon focus, he has a +5 attack bonus, not that bad of a difference.

Also remember something... fighting isn't just about your Base Attack Bonus. It's also about the additional attacks you can make, whereas a rogue can't make multiple skill checks in the same way. Then there's all the combat related feats you can purchase in order to make your character a true warrior.


Finally, the way max ranks and starting skill points are determined now is
just kind of funky. X+3 or (A+B)x4 (+4 for humans.) So what I`m thinking
of doing is making max ranks = character level and doing away with the x4
multiplier in skill points at first level. Simpler, cleaner numbers with a
minimum of math required.

So, by this reasoning, my example fighter above would have a total Ride of +3, and still have the attack bonus of +5, making him a better fighter than rider. That makes sense, but why would a ranger have a higher attack bonus than Wilderness Lore, though the focus of the class is use of those skills and abilities? Let's say he has a 16 Wisdom, so at 1st-level, he gains a +4 bonus to his WL check (+1 rank, +3 Wis). With attack, he has a 16 Strength, and could easily have a +6 bonus to attack (+1 BAB, +3 Str, +1 masterwork weapon, +1 Weapon Focus).

So, at 1st-level a fighter is just as good a fighter, but a rogue is nowhere near as good a rogue. After all, that fighter with his +5 attack bonus has no trouble with combat, while the rogue with his 1 rank in each skill would be pretty worthless at 1st-level.

And doing away with the modifiers... well, that means that my example fighter would gain 3 skill points at 1st-level, which does me no good whatsoever.

It does away with the math, but it also does away with useful skill using characters at first level. After all, the fighter can fight just the same as before, and the wizard and cleric can keep throwing around the same amount of spells as before, but the rogue is unable to fulfill any of his basic functions, since the "average" rogue would have a Open Lock +1, Move Silently +1, Hide +1...

In conclusion, if these "problems" that you are attempting to point out were in actuality a problem, then these 4 years of playtesting that 3rd Edition has received (the year before it came out, up until now) would have showed this.

[Birthright-L]

> On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 10:21:11AM +0100, Stephen Starfox wrote:
> > There seems to be a misunderstanding about how ECL modifiers work
>

From: "Dr. Travis Doom" <doom@CS.WRIGHT.EDU>


> I would tend to disagree with you here. I agree that, at
> character creation, actual class levels are recommended as being
> "traded off" for ECLs to maintain relative in-party balance. I do
> not, however, agree with your interpretation of gaining a ECL-bearing
> template in game.
>
> If a character gained a template with ECLs, there is no inherent
> mandate to decrease their standard class levels in order to maintain
> equity. In fact, I would argue that treating ECLs in that manner would
> detract from their usefulness.
>

So you think such a character should suddenly gain 100 xp per character
level as a bonus from the ECL-raising experience? The longest explaination
for how ECLs work is in the FRCS, where they have xp tables for the various
ECL modifiers. If you check these tables, you can see that this (extra xp)
is exactly what happens if you use your version here.

/Carl



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[Birthright-L]

Without being so antagonistic, I would simply say this in defence of the
three `virtual` evels you gain skill points for before level 1: They serve
to differentiate different first level characters from one another. Putting
a single skill point into a skill (the greatest possible profilation
withouth those virtual levels) makes ardly any difference to skills like
Climb and Jump that anyone can use. Puting four skill points is still not a
huge difference, but at least it allows some specialization and makes some
difference between skilled and unskilled characters.

/Carl


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[Birthright-L]

From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>

> So you think such a character should suddenly gain 100 xp ....

Sorry, should have been 1000 xp per character level.


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[geeman]

At 01:59 AM 3/15/2003 +0100, Carl wrote:

>Without being so antagonistic, I would simply say this in defence of the
>three `virtual` evels you gain skill points for before level 1: They serve
>to differentiate different first level characters from one another. Putting
>a single skill point into a skill (the greatest possible profilation
>withouth those virtual levels) makes ardly any difference to skills like
>Climb and Jump that anyone can use. Puting four skill points is still not a
>huge difference, but at least it allows some specialization and makes some
>difference between skilled and unskilled characters.

That`s a good point. Skill ranks are much less important at low levels if
one makes max ranks = character level. I don`t know if that`d really be a
problem in the long run--it might just be more of a matter of getting used
to a different way of doing things rather than a particular fault of the
idea--but it is something that should be taken into consideration.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 01:18 AM 3/15/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>
Originally posted by geeman
>The solution that I used was just say that scion levels don`t count as
>character levels for the purpose of max ranks, feat acquisition, ability
>score increases, etc.... I assumed max ranks for those skills would be
>scion level +3 rather than character level, so it cut both ways.
>
>
>Wait... didn`t you say something about not liking the skills system due
>to the level +3 max, and that you desired "simpler, cleaner numbers with
>a minimum of math required"? Doesn`t this add twice as much math, since
>now you have to track not only multiple character classes, feats, skills,
>spells, granted powers, class abilities, but also an entirely separate
>class system?

The stuff on max ranks was much later in the post, and not directed
specifically at the situation regarding max ranks and scion levels. (I
tried to note the segue with a sentence introducing the ideas
seperately.) All told, however, I don`t think one really has much to do
with the other.... At least, not directly. I don`t think the ideas
expressed about skill points and max ranks have much to do with bloodline
as a character class, it was just some musing on skills since the "scion
only" skills kind of took me that direction. If one makes a fundamental
change to the character class system, of course, it would also change
bloodline expressed as a character class. I don`t think it really adds
"twice as much math" as you`re suggesting, and that math that it does add
is pretty easily done, so I don`t expect the sky to start falling as the
above would seem to indicate.

The ideas about max ranks and skill points is a more recent development. I
introduced the bloodline as character class stuff to my players a couple of
months ago, so we were able to playtest it a bit. Right now we`re
playtesting bloodline as an ability score per the BRCS text--and all I can
say in that regard is despite some of the objections that have been raised,
bloodline as character class works at least as well as bloodline as an
ability score in my experience.... I want to try bloodline using the "4
step" method that I posted a while back. After that maybe we`ll compare
the whole kit and kaboodle to get a system that we`ll use with some regularity.

>So, I have to keep track of my fighter levels, my cleric levels, my feats,
>my skills, granted powers, spells, but now also have to keep track of this
>class-that-is-not-a-class in a completely different manner, managing its
>skills-that-are-not-skills and its blood abilities.

You have to keep track of most of those things using any system of
bloodlines. You just wouldn`t add scion levels to character level for the
purpose of max ranks or other XP based level features, but that`s the only
real change to how things would look on a character sheet for a blooded
character. All aspects of the scion as a character class would be
incorporated right into the rest of the character sheet, so if you`re
writing down both fighter and cleric levels, noting scion levels next to
them shouldn`t be that much more effort. Similarly, the skills would be
noted right along with other skills in that section of the character record
sheet, and blood abilities amongst the feats and special abilities
section--or where ever people like to record such things--which is how I`ve
done in since 2e BR.

>
In fact, during playtesting of the scion as a character class I was
>tempted
>not to count scion levels for the purpose of XP requirements for levelling
>up in "normal" character classes too.
>
>And there`s the problem... you playtested your own material. The reason
>companies get outside playtesters to go through thousands of situations in
>the rules is because they don`t think like the person who wrote it... by
>playtesting your own rules, you don`t really notice problems with the way
>your write mechanics, and you don`t see problems with things that others do.

I`m not really looking for the same amount of playtesting that game
publishers do, and I`m not convinced that it`s as productive as you seem to
think. If you`re volunteering to put together a playtest group that will
review my house rules, though, I`d be happy to send more stuff your
way.... After you sign a sufficiently draconian non-disclosure agreement,
of course.

>
Some folks have mentioned making blood abilities themselves
>skill-based, which is an interesting idea. I`m curious to see how they
>might do that.
>
>Go over and take a look at the Bloodlines thread for an example.

I read every post that comes to the list... no matter how painful that can
sometimes be. ;) So far the ideas of a skill based bloodline system have
been interesting, though in general I`m not sure if it will work as well as
other systems might. I like the way SW did force skills, so I`d like to
keep an open mind to doing something similar in BR, but the power level of
blood abilities seems to scale higher than skill points would typically
accommodate. Bloodline points (like the hero points from M&M or 4CtF) seem
like a more apt way of reflecting that sort of thing.

>
The more I think on it, the less I like the way max ranks and the
>number of skill points at 1st level works.
>
>Much better than 2nd Edition, where having proficiency in some kind of
>craft doesn`t really make you any good at it... this system shows that
>you progress in your chosen trade, gaining more and more ability as you
>go. Thus, skill ranks increase with level.

No argument there. 3e`s skill system is a quantum leap better than 2e`s
NWP system. That doesn`t mean it can`t stand a few tweaks here and there.

>If that 1st-level character is truly "average," then he would fail a DC
>15 check according to probability. An average ability score is 10 (+0
>modifier), which means that the average check would be a 14, which is just
>shy of that 15 DC.

It`s 50/50 for a total +4 modifier, whether it comes from ranks or an
ability score. It isn`t the "average" (10 or 11) d20 result for this
purpose. On actual rolls you`ll get 1-10 50% of the time on a d20, which
would fail a DC 15 check, and 11-20 50% of the time, which would succeed.

>It is pretty unusual for a character to have a +15 bonus on a skill check
>at 1st-level, unless the DM interferes with modifiers pretty often.
>
>1st-level halfling fighter w/Str 16 (+3), Jump +4 would have a total
>modifier of +9. This takes into account the halfling`s racial bonus. It
>would take an additional +6 worth of modifiers for this character to have
>a +15, and the race itself is geared towards Jump.

Give a character a synergy bonus, skill emphasis and an 18 instead of 16
and you`ve got the +15. It`s unusual, but the point is that it is within
the scope of 1st level characters to have modifiers that surpass the
"typical" DC check.

>
With the addition of an epic level of play in which the rules take
>quite seriously DC 50 or higher checks, "normalizing" the numbers at 15
>for 1st level characters makes even less sense.
>
>The core rules doesn`t take the epic level rules into account, as the
>core rules are built to handle levels 1-20, not above. Also, the
>"average" DC for an epic check is nowhere as low as 15, so it`s not
>really a problem. If you`ve read the Epic Level Handbook, you`d know this.

I`ve read the ELH. That`s how I know it deals seriously with DC 50+ skill
checks. Balancing on a silk thread, swimming up a waterfall, stuff like
that. What I was getting at there was not that epic level DCs would be
reduced to 15, but that DC 15 as a "base number" for DC checks doesn`t have
a lot of meaning given that that set of numbers is surpassed dramatically
at the epic level of play. The skill system`s DCs range from 1-14 (below
average) 15 (average) to 16-30 (above average) to 31+ (epic) which is fine
for most people`s use. They had to "normalize" (that is, scale the max
ranks) to 15 to get that set of numbers, however, which isn`t really
necessary. An average DC could be 11 just as easily and, I`d suggest, a
little more "naturally" in that it would be more in line with a d20.

>
IMO, a 1st level character shouldn`t be all that competent. Even
>PCs, who are generally considered to be extraordinary people, start of
>around 16-20 years old (for humans) and I just don`t think the capacities
>of inexperienced individuals should be the basis for determining the
>"average" difficulty of a skill check.
>
>So, according to you and your reasoning, a person that is between 16-20
>(1st-level) should not be able to climb a tree.
>
>A tree is a DC 15 climb, and the "average" person of that level with +4
>ranks and no Strength bonus (average Strength is 10, after all) would not
>be able to climb that tree very well. Yet, as a 6 year old child, I could
>climb trees very easily.

He could still climb a tree. First of all, the particulars behind the DC
numbers is often more easily scaled, and real world examples are always a
little goofy.... The examples in the PHB aren`t that great
sometimes. Climbing a tree is listed as a DC 15 check, but it accompanies
things like climbing "a very rough natural rock surface with handholds" or
an unknotted rope, so I`d suggest that what they probably meant there was
climbing a tree without branches (like shimmying up a palm tree to gather
coconuts.) Climbing a surface with ledges to hold onto or stand on (like
branches) is a DC 10 check. The branchy trees that toddlers go after are
probably lower than the typical "adventure encounter" DC 15 check. That
said, unless orcs were shooting arrows at you (or you were otherwise
interfered with) when you were six and climbing trees I`d suggest that you
were probably taking 10 or taking 20 on those climb checks and the trees in
question probably didn`t rise in difficulty to the DC 15 level.

In any case, if you`ll check the PHB, a successful climb check doesn`t let
the character simply climb a tree. Rather, he can scamper up (or down, or
sideways) the tree at half his movement rate, or at one quarter his
movement rate if he is also going to perform a standard action (like
stabbing another climber.) As a six-year-old you might very well have been
able to climb trees. I climbed a few myself, and I still go rock climbing
from time to time. I`m guessing, though, that very few six-year-olds could
climb 150` a minute up a surface meant to be of "average" difficulty for a
typical adult. One only needs to take 10 with +5 modifiers in order to do
that in D&D.

>With your system, the 1st-level character would have to have an 18 (+4)
>Strength to succeed, with the +1 rank of Climb they would have.

He could have additional bonuses from synergy, aiding, etc. He could also
take 20 (unless being interfered with) or he could try an easier (lower DC)
tree.

>However, I have seen plenty of 16-20 year olds (and even younger in fact)
>that could climb a natural rock wall, but according to you, it should be
>impossible (DC 25).

I didn`t say climbing a tree should be DC 25. I`m suggesting max ranks
should be altered not DC ranges. (I like to tweak those a bit too, but
that`s another issue.)

>Here`s a 1st-level fighter built with the standard array (Str 15, Dex 14,
>Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8). With 4 ranks of Ride, he has a +6 skill
>modifier. With a masterwork weapon and Weapon focus, he has a +5 attack
>bonus, not that bad of a difference.

If you`re going to give him a masterwork weapon and a feat to spend on his
attack roll then a legitimate comparison would give him a masterwork saddle
and skill emphasis. That makes his ride check +11, more than twice the
attack bonus. (Not on all ride checks, of course, because the saddle will
not always apply, but similarly he may not always be using the weapon which
he spent his weapon focus feat on either, nor a MW weapon.)

>Also remember something... fighting isn`t just about your Base Attack
>Bonus. It`s also about the additional attacks you can make, whereas a
>rogue can`t make multiple skill checks in the same way. Then there`s all
>the combat related feats you can purchase in order to make your character
>a true warrior.

That`s certainly true. I don`t think it`s much of an argument to counter
the assessment of BAB and ranks being essentially the same game mechanic,
though. There are particulars that are, of course, different but the
particular differences between various skills can vary as broadly as the
differences between the mechanics of BAB vs AC and ranks vs DC.

>
Finally, the way max ranks and starting skill points are determined
>now is just kind of funky. X+3 or (A+B)x4 (+4 for humans.) So what I`m
>thinking of doing is making max ranks = character level and doing away
>with the x4 multiplier in skill points at first level. Simpler, cleaner
>numbers with a minimum of math required.
>
>So, by this reasoning, my example fighter above would have a total Ride of
>+3, and still have the attack bonus of +5, making him a better fighter
>than rider. That makes sense, but why would a ranger have a higher attack
>bonus than Wilderness Lore, though the focus of the class is use of those
>skills and abilities? Let`s say he has a 16 Wisdom, so at 1st-level, he
>gains a +4 bonus to his WL check (+1 rank, +3 Wis). With attack, he has a
>16 Strength, and could easily have a +6 bonus to attack (+1 BAB, +3 Str,
>+1 masterwork weapon, +1 Weapon Focus).

I still think your example is bad since you use both circumstantial bonus
(MW weapon) and a feat in order to derive the numbers for the comparison
without applying similar choices for the skill aspect of the
character. Also, there`s no reason to assume the standard array has to be
arranged as it is in the DMG.

>So, at 1st-level a fighter is just as good a fighter, but a rogue is
>nowhere near as good a rogue. After all, that fighter with his +5 attack
>bonus has no trouble with combat, while the rogue with his 1 rank in each
>skill would be pretty worthless at 1st-level.
>
>And doing away with the modifiers... well, that means that my example
>fighter would gain 3 skill points at 1st-level, which does me no good
>whatsoever.

It does you 3 skill points worth of good. But let`s focus for a moment
here. The number of skill points by character class is not the
issue. That could certainly be debated, but it`s different from max ranks.

>In conclusion, if these "problems" that you are attempting to point out
>were in actuality a problem, then these 4 years of playtesting that 3rd
>Edition has received (the year before it came out, up until now) would
>have showed this.

Well, that`s a bit of slippery logic there.... D&D`s been around for 30
years, so why has it gone through so many variations? Surely the amount of
real world playtesting would have perfected the system sometime around 1985
if 4 years of playtesting were what it took.

Gary

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[Azrai]

Originally posted by geeman


The class uses the system of bloodline points that fits into some recent
posts I`ve been suggesting in other threads. Here it is:

The Scion as a class has d4 hit dice. I also gave the class 2 skill points
per level, but the only skills available to the class were a few
specialized ones meant for blooded characters like "Sense Bloodline" which
allowed scions to recognize other blooded characters. (Several of those
skill descriptions I`ve sent to the list in the past, so they should be in
the archives.)

The primary difference between the Scion as a character class and a regular
character class, of course, is that one does not increase one`s Scion class
by levelling up through experience points. Only increasing bloodline score
(by bloodtheft or good realm management) can do that.

One could replace the bloodline points and max abilities with minor, major,
great blood abilities fairly easily if one felt that system is too cumbersome.

In playtesting I found it a bit hard to balance in that it`s difficult to
compare directly with "standard" character classes for the ECL
purposes. It`s not any less or more unbalanced, however, than bloodline as
an ability score from what I can tell. I`ve been considering dropping all
the class features and just going with bloodline strength and bloodline
points--which is what I presented previously as "2e bloodlines in 3e style."

So the choices for other ways of doing bloodline would seem to be:

1. Make it an ability score.
2. Make it a character class--sort of.
3. Make it an independent system more in line with the original 2e system.



A scion class makes absolutely no sense and violates severely the flair of birthright.
Mighty, blooded fighter would be virtually unknown. The d4 HD is a joke.

[Shade]

At 06:45 AM 3/11/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:
>>
>>>This is also a problem with the connection between Bloodline score
>>>(which grants the modifier and the abilities) and the templates (which
>>>grant the strength). In short, there is no connection between them.
>>>
>>
>>This is an effort to mimic the old duality of bloodline strength and
>>score. It was kinda clunky then, and should probably be done away with,
>>or at least streamlined. If we end up with bloodline as an ability score,
>>then the `tainted, minor, major, great, true` should be done away with as
>>categories, though they could remain as descriptors. Someone with a
>>bloodline up to 10 might be described as having a `minor bloodline`, for
>>instance.
>>
>The descriptors should definitely stay: While very few people in Cerilia
>will actually know the bloodline points of Prince Avan, nearly all will
>know that he has e.g. a "great" bloodline. It is so common knowledge for
>blooded scions that familys e.g. would not let the daughter of a great
>line marry into a minor (a commoner is totally out of question!) because
>the childrens blood would be diluted - and that all in addition to the
>normal considerations of aristrocracy.

I agree with Michael. The descriptors are very important from a roleplaying
perspective, and actually I don`t even mind the bloodline score not being
tied to the descriptor. If you don`t like the numbers being out of whack,
you can just ignore the descriptor.

The important thing here is that the descriptor and score together allow
you to reflect your heritage (a descriptor) and your score shows how that
bloodline has fared over the years. For example, the Major bloodline of the
Diems has done well over the years and is now at 42 strength, for example.
The Great bloodline of the Avans has done extremely well (70), especially
compared to the Great bloodline of el-Arrasi, which has clearly declined in
strength (30-something).

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[Shade]

>ECLed species in Savage Species get this level-based treatment, is what I
>was after. We could do the same thing with scions. And Cerilian
>Halfings, Elves, and Dwarves, now that I think of it. Want your halfing
>character to be able to go into the shadow world? Take your racial level
>of Halfing.

This is an interesting idea. We should definitely take a look at this, IMO.

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[Shade]

At 11:58 AM 3/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>irdeggman writes:
>
>> What I meant by exp based ECLs is that the character with the ECL
>> adjustment now has to gain more exp to get to the next level.
>
>Ah, I see. Quite right. That is bit of a snag, huh? Savage Species does
>present some options and explanation for how one might handle that sort of
>thing and the templates that can get added onto characters in that text tend
>to be at least as dramatic as a few scion levels.
>
>I suppose the simplest solution to this kind of thing would be to say that
>the ECL for scion levels is for the purpose of determining encounter levels
>and say it doesn`t count towards XP in a similar manner to the way prestige
>class levels don`t provoke multi-class XP penalties. The scion as a
>character class does break many of the conventional rules regarding the
>class sytem (just as any interpretation must, I guess) so it may be the
>easiest way to handle the issue.

Hmm, I KIND of like the sound of this. I`m not sure yet, though. If we take
this approach, though, we shouldn`t call it ECL, because it isn`t ECL,
strictly speaking. We`d have to call it BECL, for bloodline equivalent
character level, that works differently from a regular ECL.

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[Shade]

At 11:54 AM 3/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 11, 2003 at 10:09:13PM -0800, Gary wrote:
>> >If someone looses their bloodline, do they loose all related levels?
>>
>> Yes, that`s the way it would work. I hadn`t thought of any reason why it
>> wouldn`t function the same way it does in the original rules.
>
>This would seem to be a problem to me.
>
>For example (level based approached):
>
>A 10th level character becomes blooded. They spend 10,000 XP (when
>they have it) on their next advancement. Until then, they don`t gain
>the advantages of their new "level". If they loose their ability
>immediately afterwards (perhaps by having it destroyed) they are out
>10,000 XP for a very brief period of "usefulness". One would assume
>that the character would also loose some skill points (a level
>associated trait), maximum skill ranks, and be subject to any other
>number of level-based difficulties.
>
>Same example (ECL based approached):
>
>A 10th level character becomes blooded. They now have an ECL (say +1).
>They have immediate access to their powers. In order to advance to
>their next level (in any class) they have to spend an additional 1,000
>XP. Additionally, they receive slightly less XP per encounter (as they
>are marginally "tougher" than before they were a scion). If they loose
>their bloodline, then the template is simple removed.
>
>--
>
>IMHO an ECL-based approach applies a "cool tax". You lose a fixed (but
>small) amount of XP over the period of being blooded. If you loose the
>bloodline soon thereafter quickly, then you pay little in lost XP. If
>the character is blooded throughout their development then the total XP
>costs are equivalent - but ECL-based templates are DESIGNED to be
>easily added/subtracted to characters during play. Levels are not.
>
>In short, I prefer a system in which should a PC be invested with the
>bloodline of their deseceased liege would say:
>
>+ Wow. Cool new responsibilities and powers! (But I have to pay for
> them... that ECL is going to hurt).
>
>- not -
>
>+ What?!? I have to take _how_ many levels of scion? But I was going
> use my next fighter level to <Random Feat>!!! And now I`m can`t use
> my next character-level based general feat the way that I had planned
> because I won`t have the pre-reqs. This totally screws up my
> character progression.
>
> Granted, this is but one (rather extreme) example, but I hope that
> it illustrates my concerns regarding a "class-level based" approach
> to bloodlines.

I think the ECL approach is almost as bad, though. Suppose you have a
Fighter6 that is a scion of a great bloodline (+3 I think?) so he`s a level
9 character, and has enough xp to be level 9.

Now say he divests himself. Does he suddenly gain 3 new levels of fighting
ability? When he LOST the bloodline, why did he become so much tougher,
gaining 3d10hp+con? Why did his saving throws suddenly improve?

The ECL bloodline system isn`t robust either, and will break down under
stress.

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[geeman]

At 01:09 PM 3/15/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:

>A scion class makes absolutely no sense and violates severely the flair of
>birthright.
>Mighty, blooded fighter would be virtually unknown. The d4 HD is a joke.

Care to support that with some examples or elucidate your concerns
further? How does it violate the flair of BR? Why would a mighty blooded
fighter be virtually unknown. Why is d4 HD a joke?

Gary

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[doom]

> I think the ECL approach is almost as bad, though. Suppose you have a
> Fighter6 that is a scion of a great bloodline (+3 I think?) so he`s a level
> 9 character, and has enough xp to be level 9.
>
> Now say he divests himself. Does he suddenly gain 3 new levels of fighting
> ability? When he LOST the bloodline, why did he become so much tougher,
> gaining 3d10hp+con? Why did his saving throws suddenly improve?
>
> The ECL bloodline system isn`t robust either, and will break down under
> stress.

Well, that isn`t really how I see ECLs working. The character doesn`t
gain any extra XP. Instead, he would just need an additional 3000 XP
for each level advancement for as long as he had the bloodline. When
the bloodline goes, so does its cost... but you wouldn`t "recoup" the
sunk cost - those XP were spent to "pay for" the ablility while you
had it.

- Doom

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[ecliptic]

Using ECL for it is going to do nothing but give people headaches.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman

Care to support that with some examples or elucidate your concerns further? How does it violate the flair of BR? Why would a mighty blooded fighter be virtually unknown. Why is d4 HD a joke?
Nobody would take several levels of "scion", if they only get d4 hit points (like a wizard/ sorcerer). Gavin Thael or the Gorgon where not half this powerful, if they had "wasted" levels for this. A mighty blooded fighter is indeed unknown. You hit him twice and he is history. His few blood abilities, even if greater, wouldn't help him (this would be TRULY unbalanced). IMO blooded people ARE heros and "better" than commoners. They shouldn't get disadvantages (this violates the flair of BR). Scions are the "special" about BR, if you "restrict" them in some manner, nobody will play them. And then you can play anywhere else...

[geeman]

At 02:55 AM 3/16/2003 +0100, Ariadne wrote:

>Nobody would take several levels of "scion", if they only get d4 hit
>points (like a wizard/ sorcerer). Gavin Thael or the Gorgon where not half
>this powerful, if they had "wasted" levels for this. A mighty blooded
>fighter is indeed unknown. You hit him twice and he is history. His few
>blood abilities, even if greater, wouldn`t help him (this would be TRULY
>unbalanced). IMO blooded people ARE heros and "better" than commoners.
>They shouldn`t get disadvantages (this violates the flair of BR). Scions
>are the "special" about BR, if you "restrict" them in some manner,
>nobody will play them. And then you can play anywhere else...

I think you missed the fundamental way it would work. You don`t "take"
scion levels as presented in the same way that one takes levels in other
classes. That is, you don`t level up into them. They represent bloodline
strength the same way bloodline strength score does. You determine
bloodline strength the same way you do in another system, find that scion
level and then add the appropriate HD, BAB, saves, skills and special
(blood) abilities. A mighty fighter, say 10th level, would still be a
mighty fighter with a few levels of scion tacked on.

Gary

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[Mourn]

This is how the scion class idea that geeman has works:

Two players start characters at the same time, one a commoner and one a scion, and advance to 10th-level through the same adventures and experiences. The commoner is a 10th-level fighter. The scion is a 10th-level wizard (+6th-level scion). Essentially, the scion class stacks on top of other other classes, granting its special abilities on top of what you have, but must be tracked completely separately. Thus, the commoner has 10d10 HD, and the scion has 10d4 HD + 6d4 hit points. The fighter has a +10 BAB bonus while the wizard has a +5 BAB (w/a +whatever scion class bonus). It's essentially giving the scion extra class levels for free, but the class doesn't function as a normal class. There is no XP for it, you don't get feats every three levels, and you don't get a level adjustment.

[Peter Lubke]

preamble:


There are some points that are rarely considered:
(1) A player`s ability, skill, and experience bears little relationship
to their character`s level (or ECL). This is almost 100% true in all
situations. Expert players will play 1st level characters, and beginners
will be brevetted to much higher levels. Both are very valid and common
occurrences.
(2) It is harder (not easier) to play very low level characters well
compared to mid-level characters. It is much easier (and more fun) for
beginner players to play characters that are already heroes. More
experienced players are more like to enjoy the process of becoming a
hero character.
(3) Balance between player characters may be a consideration if all
players have equal experience, but this is, in my experience quite rare.
(4) Balance between players and adventure design is required in order to
make the adventure challenging for them. But, this is not a function of
character versus adventure - see point (1).




On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 08:37, Gary wrote:

At 03:20 PM 3/14/2003 -0500, Doom wrote:

>I will now raise _one_ example (of the many possible) to illustrate the
>point. Number of skill points (and maximum skill ranks) are class
>level dependent, but not ECL dependent. If you gain/loose a bloodline
>template ECL this will have no effect on your skill ranks.

That`s a good point, and one that wasn`t addressed in the post in which I
presented my scion class. What to do with max ranks and such level based
features (1 feat per 3 levels, ability score increases, etc.) of characters
as they level up? In the case of a character who could lose scion levels
relatively easily, what to do with their max ranks (and other character
features) when that happens?





Also, is a kind of correlation in the game mechanics. There is, in effect,
no difference between AC and DC in the game. They get used for different
purposes, of course, but they are by and large the same concept and use the
same game mechanic; a number that must be met or exceeded in order to
accomplish a particular task. Roll a d20, add modifiers. Why then does a
1st level PC get the potential equivalent of a +4 BAB on skill checks when
that represents the highest BAB progression for any character class? Using
those numbers a fighter might be more competent with his ride skill than
with his sword, and can remain constantly better at riding than fighting
throughout his levelling up process.

Finally, the way max ranks and starting skill points are determined now is
just kind of funky. X+3 or (A+B)x4 (+4 for humans.) So what I`m thinking
of doing is making max ranks = character level and doing away with the x4
multiplier in skill points at first level. Simpler, cleaner numbers with a
minimum of math required.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 23:09, Azrai wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1418

A scion class makes absolutely no sense and violates severely the flair of birthright.
Mighty, blooded fighter would be virtually unknown. The d4 HD is a joke.

Disagree. But I`d like to distinguish between characters with strong
blood abilities (being a measure not of bloodline per se but of
experience gained in the Scion class), and those with strong bloodlines
(being a measure of their potential in the Scion class).

Then a mighty fighter can have a great bloodline and few if any blood
abilities, while a great Scion may have the same bloodline, many blood
abilities, yet far less actual personal combat ability (although he may
be a greater war leader, through leadership, battlewise etc).

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:

> Well, that isn`t really how I see ECLs working. The character doesn`t
> gain any extra XP. Instead, he would just need an additional 3000 XP
> for each level advancement for as long as he had the bloodline.

To me, that`s not balance. That`s cruel and unusual punishment. It`s the
entire reason I hate the way the ECL system is used.

Calculate the challenge of a given encounter as if he were 3 levels
greater if you wish, but please let him spend the XP you give him as the
level he really is. No blood power is *that* useful. Well, maybe
Invulnerability is, but even then I don`t think it should be "balanced" by
socking the character with a huge XP penalty.


Ryan Caveney

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[DanMcSorley]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Mourn wrote:
> If that 1st-level character is truly "average," then he would fail a
> DC 15 check according to probability. An average ability score is 10
> (+0 modifier), which means that the average check would be a 14, which
> is just shy of that 15 DC.

Wrong. He would succeed half the time, which is the point of making an
`average` target. If the DC is 15 and he has a +4 modifier for skills but
no stat mod, then for half the rolls (1-10), his total will fail, the
other half the rolls, he`ll succeed. Taking 10 is meant to be useful for
skills you`re much better at than +4.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman

I think you missed the fundamental way it would work. You don`t "take" scion levels as presented in the same way that one takes levels in other classes. That is, you don`t level up into them. They represent bloodline strength the same way bloodline strength score does. You determine bloodline strength the same way you do in another system, find that scion level and then add the appropriate HD, BAB, saves, skills and special
(blood) abilities. A mighty fighter, say 10th level, would still be a mighty fighter with a few levels of scion tacked on.
Do you mean someone gets HD for free? Or does this only work for "monsters" who don't have normal classes?

[geeman]

What would you guys think of adding up ECLs for bloodline by decimal
points? That is, what if the factors of bloodline were broken up into two
or more groups and each factor had it`s own ECL rating expressed in a
manner like this (expressed bloodline score in the "traditional" 2e manner):

Blood
line ECL
10 0.1
15 0.2
20 0.3
25 0.4
30 0.5
35 0.6
40 0.7
45 0.8

Meanwhile blood abilities might have a similar treatment:

Ability
Power ECL
Minor 0.2
Major 0.4
Great 0.6

A character with a bloodline score of 25, a minor and a major blood ability
would then have an ECL of 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.4 = 1. A character with a
bloodline score of 45 and two great blood abilities would have an ECL of
0.8 + 0.6 + 0.6 = 2.

The actual numbers would be different, of course, and the ECL numbers would
accompany tables having to do with each of those factors... and the idea
would be fleshed out a bit, but that`s the basic concept.

What do you think?

Gary

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by geeman
What do you think?


I've thought about that, myself. But what about a character that has a ECL +.9? Technically, you round down (the PHB says that about any fractional numbers), so they wouldn't be an ECL increase, but they would be just shy of that mark, but they are just about as strong as an ECL+1.

[geeman]

At 09:22 PM 3/21/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

>I`ve thought about that, myself. But what about a character that has a
>ECL +.9? Technically, you round down (the PHB says that about any
>fractional numbers), so they wouldn`t be an ECL increase, but they would
>be just shy of that mark, but they are just about as strong as an ECL+1.

I think this is one of those cases where you could change the typical rule
and say "round off" rather than round down. In writing this up a bit over
the past two days I through that in and it seems to work out OK--testing
will be required. There is always the possibility that pathological
min/max players will avoid getting to X.5 in order to keep their ECL
modifier at the lower digit, but at a certain point that`s unavoidable in a
system of ECL.

In general, I`m starting to favor a system of EL/ECL/CR that would have a
single decimal point after the level numbers, so for my purposes I`d
probably go with the actual decimal rather than round anything. A decimal
point is more accurate and allows one to account for many factors other
than just character level and things like templates--fractions from
characters having more gp value in their inventory than is typical for
their character level, ability scores higher or lower than the standard
array, etc. It`s really not all that complex either when one thinks about
it. It is, however, a change to the core system that I think would be a
bit drastic in campaign material, so rounding is the better option for our
purposes here.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

There has to be an easier booking way to determine ECLs than this. It is starting to need more booking than the RP collection method in the proposed document, or at least what many perceive as a lot of bookkeeping. In any event this method definitely has more bookkeeping than the skill based progressive method of RP collection that was proposed and hence based on the comments generated it should be simplified.:)

[ecliptic]

Uh the more complicated this gets the less likely I will even use this conversion.


Plus if I do say so myself. That ECL makeup you got is the stupidest thing I've read.

So you are suppose to randomly determine what ECL your character gets? Uh and if not then everyone will have a bloodline but wont get enough powers to qualify for a ECL 1.

Retarded.

[irdeggman]

Ecliptic,
Please try to keep your comments on a more professional type of tone. Comments like the ones you made, well the phrasing. I think the commments could have been made with a less personal tone.

If comments are perceived as insulting then we end up in a flame war and nothing can ever get done. I think we all have to remind ourselves that there is a person on the other end of everyone's sig and ask would I like to be addressed in this manner?:)

[Starfox]

Originally posted by Mourn

For example, let's take a minor scion (Ftr5, Bld 18) and a major scion (Ftr5, Bld 12). According to the rules, the minor scion is an ECL 5, and the major scion is an ECL 6. The minor scion has a +4 modifier, and the major scion has a +1 modifier. The minor scion has 3 bloodline abilities, all minor, and the major scion has one minor ability.

The minor scion is obviously the stronger of the two, due to the abilities gained and the strength of the score, and the major scion is the weaker. However, due to the rules, the major scion is considered a higher ECL.

The minor scion has spent 15 attribute build points on his Bld of 18. The major scion has spent nothing (8 (zero build points) +4 (template bonus) = 12). This spells the difference between a stat line of (16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8) and (17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10). Such a huge difference in attributes is worth an ECL, even considering the somewhat lower Bld score.

If you randomly generate the attibutes, there can be no balance by definition, but the end result is similar. The difference is that a series of extremely good or bad rolls can unbalance thing. But the relative value of the two character concepts, assuming the same dire rolls, remain about the same.

[AnakinMiller]

> ecliptic wrote:
> Uh the more complicated this gets the less likely I will even use this
conversion.

You mean you don`t think its all ready complicated? Anytime you have to add
more skills than you can count on one hand, cross reference multiple charts
and multiply to get percentages, something is wrong.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[ConjurerDragon]

Atarikid wrote:

>> ecliptic wrote:
>> Uh the more complicated this gets the less likely I will even use this
>>
>conversion.
>
>You mean you don`t think its all ready complicated? Anytime you have to add
>more skills than you can count on one hand, cross reference multiple charts
>and multiply to get percentages, something is wrong.
>-Anakin Miller
>
True :-)
2E Non-weapon-Proficiencys were simple compared to 3E skills.
However skills are better able to simulate a learning curve when gaining
levels and becoming more powerful.

However IF skills are used I did not understand why,
- you gain XP for killing monsters which enables you to become better at
skills
The variant of gaining XP for things other than killing monsters
presented in the DMG should be the standard in Birthright.

- you can become better at cooking (Profession: Cook) when killing an
orc instead of USING the skill to gain XP for successful uses and
raising the skill by using (like e.g. computer games like Daggerfall work).

And I do not like the trend that more and more specialized skills are
made up and created.
Points to be spend on skills are limited. A large number of skills
prevents anyone from being good in more than a few skills.
So creating even more and more skills leads only to the frustration that
you can´t have a party of a few people who have all skills they need -
or in case of a PBEM you and your lieutenants and hirelings.
The Bard has one of his few advantages here in that Perform is only 1
skill and includes all types of perfomance (playing Mandoline, singing,
telling fairy tales...) while Craft, Profession and Knowledge skills are
divided in lots of different skills.

The draft mentions somewhere if I remember right that Birthright should
emphasize Craft and Profession skills - however that in addtion to
spending feats on rulership enhancements will make Birthright characters
less able to dungeon crawl.
If a rogue is a skilled Profession (Merchant) his Move Silently perhaps
will lack, and if a Cleric is a good Profession (Herbalist) and spends 5
points there he gets only 2 synergy bonus to Heal while he could have a
Heal skill 5 ranks higher - if the characters could concentrate on the
standard array of skills and need not to spend points on skills seldom
used by adventurers.
bye
Michael Romes

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[irdeggman]

OK, we're starting to diverge. The topic was Chapter 2 - ECLs and not the whole 3rd ed/skills concept.:)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 6:41 AM


> - you can become better at cooking (Profession: Cook) when
> killing an orc instead of USING the skill to gain XP for successful
> uses and raising the skill by using (like e.g. computer games like
> Daggerfall work).

That is because if a skill is a class skill it is presdumed you might very
well be doing it during the same period of time (the period between when you
last and next level) that you went out and killed orcs. This helps keep the
system simple. Otherwise I might begin to quibble that cooking over a camp
fire is not the same thing as prepareing a banquet in the great hall and
demand a seperate skill. Part of good role playing is picking skills that
make sense, rather than just picking the ones you want without any
explanation of how you got them or how you use them.

> And I do not like the trend that more and more specialized skills
> are made up and created. Points to be spend on skills are limited.
> A large number of skills prevents anyone from being good in more
> than a few skills.

That is exactly why I like more and more skills. You should not be good at
things without choosing to ignore the possibility of being good at other
things. Hail opportunity costs. Its also why I like 2 skill ranks/level
for dedicated classes (the fighter fights, not fights and studies heraldry)

> So creating even more and more skills leads only to the frustration
> that you can´t have a party of a few people who have all skills they
> need -

Again sounds to me like a good thing. Adventuring should be difficult. On
the other hand, you and I may not be using the same DC`s after a while. I
may compensate by lower DC`s on the more difficult end of the scale. We`d
have to compare DC`s to know whether that factors in.

> The draft mentions somewhere if I remember right that Birthright
> should emphasize Craft and Profession skills - however that in
> addtion to spending feats on rulership enhancements will make
> Birthright characters less able to dungeon crawl.

Opportunity costs. You can`t be all things to all people. BTW, I`d say BR
should emphasize Knowledge and Profession. Its the lower sort who do the
Crafts.

> If a rogue is a skilled Profession (Merchant) his Move Silently
> perhaps will lack, and if a Cleric is a good Profession (Herbalist)
> and spends 5 points there he gets only 2 synergy bonus to Heal
> while he could have a Heal skill 5 ranks higher - if the characters
> could concentrate on the standard array of skills and need not to
> spend points on skills seldom used by adventurers.

Why spend points on skills seldom used? If you are in fact a Guilder, you
use Profession (Merchant) more than you use Move Silently. If you are a
theif, you only want so much Prof (Merch) as to be able to fence your stolen
goods. If you are a bandit, spy, or courtier using the Rogue class, you may
want to ignore dozens of skills like Prof (Merch). Just because a skill
exists does not mean you have to take it.

If I have a 6th level fighter, he has 18 skill ranks (without INT or racial
bonuses). That means he can a) do two things really well B) do 18 things 5%
better than an untrained person, or C) find a middle ground where he is
pretty good at some things, not so good at others, and still untrained at
others. If you want more skill ranks, I think you need to accept a slower
rate of BAB, hp, and feat aquisition and take levels of Rogue, Aristocrat,
or Expert instead.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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