d20 Q`s

[Eosin the Red]

Hello All,

I have put together the begininnings of a webpage for a PS:Mhoried using the d20 rules but some strange quirks have occured (address not handy). I thought I would make note of them and see what was behind these particular rules.

1. Trade Routes/Bridges/Ferries - Trade routes cannot cross rivers that are not bridged. Bridges cannot be built across rivers that can support naval traffic. We know from Falcon and the Wolf that the Maesil does not have any bridges in Northern Mhoried but after Rhuimache(sp?) the Maesil is no longer bridgable. This basically implies that no Trade Routes can cross the Maesil.

2. Speaking of those bridges - On of the advantages of stone bridges is that they endure time much better. It would seem that the cost should be much more than double (say x3-x6) but that they would have very little maintainence cost. Stone briges are a long term investment.

3. Maintence costs - The fractions for Maint should be dropped (IMO) infavor of a simple 0.1-0.9 GB cost. The fractions have odd breaking points (1/6th a GB is 119.7 gp depending on how you want to round). This starts getting into complicated questions on record keeping (do we convert all GB into gp keep tally that way? If so do we also track the sp that these fractions will generate? Do you say that half the GB is solid cash to be parcled out in this manner?).

4. Troops - I do not recall seeing each example unit listed with a "training level" (green, standard, veteran), nor the recruitment values of these troops. (i.e. I must a brand new unit of Elite Infantry - are they green, standard, or veteran) and is this what is reflected in the examples provided in the book.

5. Leadership feat - does the Military cohort take the place of of your standard cohort, are they seperate or can you mix-an-match?

i.e. the Mhor can get 10 GB of Units maybe more using the military cohort (guestimate)? Or he could have a 9th level follower/cohort guy. Could he use 5 GB on the units and then generate a 5th level follower/cohort? Or do you get both?

Strange conunudrum - The Regent X (FTR 8, major) takes a follower (FTR 9, unblooded). He invest`s that person with his bloodline and leaves. Now the original FTR 9 unblooded is a (FTR 9, Major, XXX). He takes the leadership feat - now his effective level is an 11 and he gets a 10th level unblooded follower ;0

Eosin>

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[ConjurerDragon]

Eosin the Red wrote:

>Hello All,
>
>I have put together the begininnings of a webpage for a PS:Mhoried using the d20 rules but some strange quirks have occured (address not handy). I thought I would make note of them and see what was behind these particular rules.
>
>1. Trade Routes/Bridges/Ferries - Trade routes cannot cross rivers that are not bridged. Bridges cannot be built across rivers that can support naval traffic. We know from Falcon and the Wolf that the Maesil does not have any bridges in Northern Mhoried but after Rhuimache(sp?) the Maesil is no longer bridgable. This basically implies that no Trade Routes can cross the Maesil.
>
Invent Ferrys that replace bridges. While doing the same (bring people
and wares to the other side) they do it slower which is irrelevant for
slow-travelling caravans - but still prevents fast army movement across
the river.

>2. Speaking of those bridges - On of the advantages of stone bridges is that they endure time much better. It would seem that the cost should be much more than double (say x3-x6) but that they would have very little maintainence cost. Stone briges are a long term investment.
>
True. However what worth has that when most games do not run for more
than 30 years of game-time?
If however you take the approach that good old Railroad Tycoon used,
that wooden bridges are not only lasting less time in years, but also
are more risky to be washed away by flooding then we have a good
short-term reason to have stone bridges.

>3. Maintence costs - The fractions for Maint should be dropped (IMO) infavor of a simple 0.1-0.9 GB cost. The fractions have odd breaking points (1/6th a GB is 119.7 gp depending on how you want to round). This starts getting into complicated questions on record keeping (do we convert all GB into gp keep tally that way? If so do we also track the sp that these fractions will generate? Do you say that half the GB is solid cash to be parcled out in this manner?).
>
To work with anything except full Gold Bars on the domain level is too
complicated for any game in which a overworked DM has to keep track on
everything. Please allow only full Goldbars on the domain level. Refer
to the Maintenance cost list of 2E Birthright for holdings, it had no
half, quarter or tenth of a GB costs.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Mourn]

I don't think this thread belongs in this forum.

This is to discuss the playtest version of the Birthright Campaign Setting, not discussing your website. This discussion should be over at the Royal Library or the Adventurer's Guild.

[Rhobher Nichaleir]

Originally posted by Mourn


I don't think this thread belongs in this forum.

This is to discuss the playtest version of the Birthright Campaign Setting, not discussing your website. This discussion should be over at the Royal Library or the Adventurer's Guild.

These are D20 Questions and comments for the D20 Team, that came up during his creation of his website.

[AnakinMiller]

Some of us don`t use the forums, we only use the list, so we have not idea
where a post is going.

Remember not everone uses those damn forums.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: d20 Q`s [36#1485]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1485
>
> Mourn wrote:
> I don`t think this thread belongs in this forum.
>
> This is to discuss the playtest version of the Birthright Campaign
Setting, not discussing your website. This discussion should be over at the
Royal Library or the Adventurer`s Guild.
>
>
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> with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

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[Eosin the Red]

> Mourn wrote:
> I don`t think this thread belongs in this forum.
>
> This is to discuss the playtest version of the Birthright Campaign
Setting, not discussing your website. This discussion should be over at the
Royal Library or the Adventurer`s Guild.


Once again, proof that you don`t need to read a post inorder to reply to it.
Impressive.

First, try to read the post - it helps in understanding the questions that
are asked. Second, I am on Birthright-L if you bothered to understand the
way things work, it might become apparent that I have no way of controlling
where the post goes. Third, you sure like to try and squew my posts. Not
once have you quoted me or addressed a question of mine in context. If you
have some difficulty with me let myself (eosin_the_red@cox.net) or Gary
know - it sure works allot better than making a fool of yourself in public.
But, thanks for the insightful comments.

Eosin

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by AnakinMiller

Some of us don`t use the forums, we only use the list, so we have not idea where a post is going.

Remember not everone uses those damn forums.
Use it! You will see that you will miss nothing, you read edits of posts, you will see where your post is going and there isn't this damn e-mail form with this damn under-title you must permanently edit, if you quote something. Naturally everybody can read your log-in name and not "posted by Birthright-L" (I see some have removed this problem already). And oh yes, I nearly forgot those miserable quotes, you must read twice to recognize it's a quote (these are removed too)...

If you still prefer using BR-L, quote like this:


Text, text, text
Naturally you must write "quote" with small letters. Trust me, that's better...

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:

> If you still prefer using BR-L, quote like this:
>
Text, text, text

Nope, not gonna do it. I will always like the email list vastly better,
and tailor my presentation to its natural format.


Ryan Caveney

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Mourn


I don't think this thread belongs in this forum.

This is to discuss the playtest version of the Birthright Campaign Setting, not discussing your website. This discussion should be over at the Royal Library or the Adventurer's Guild.

This thread contains some comments about the d20 rules and raises some points that I'm sure Eosin wants to have answers, possibly by the other developers. So I moved the thread here to this forum from one of the other forums.

Of course, this means nothing to those using the mailing list, but be assured that I'm keeping an eye out every couple of days and moving topics around if I think they should be in another forum.

To answer some of your questions (and please note I did not work on that section of the rules)

1. Ferry's, as already suggested would be a good way to move good around, or perhaps barges and riverboats. The novel WAR talks a little about the various ways of transporting goods downriver to the Imperial City, which I imagine means a trade route. The Ferry (in one form or another) has been around virtually forever...

2. I'd always go with stone bridges if I was a player. As a DM I always hope to see some nice wooden bridges to wash away in the next seasons floods...

3. This is something that is being looked at by the development team following earlier comments. Personally I'm used to using fractions from work, so I don't mind them.

I'll have to pass of the rest of the questions, nothing to do with what I was working on. Hopefully one of the other developers can assist you here.

[Arjan]

Look, I did the best i could to intergrate the forum AND the mailinglist.
The script isnt perfect but still a very good addon for both info systems.
I am still figuring out howto perfect the script so that both sides are
happy with it.
So far only a hand full is complaining.....

for the people on the list: if you dont know what a post is about. follow
the link that comes with the email to the post, otherwise just ignore the
email.

Arjan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: d20 Q`s [36#1485]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1485
>
> Ariadne wrote:
>
[b] Originally posted by AnakinMiller
>
> Some of us don`t use the forums, we only use the list, so we have not idea
where a post is going.
>
> Remember not everone uses those damn forums.
> Use it! You will see that you will miss nothing, you read edits of posts,
you will see where your post is going and there isn`t this damn e-mail form
with this damn under-title you must permanently edit, if you quote
something. Naturally everybody can read your log-in name and not "posted by
Birthright-L" (I see some have removed this problem already). And oh yes, I
nearly forgot those miserable quotes, you must read twice to recognize it`s
a quote (these are removed too)...
>
> If you still prefer using BR-L, quote like this:
>
>
Text, text, text
> Naturally you must write "quote" with small letters. Trust me, that`s
better...
>
>
>
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>

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[Birthright-L]

Arjan, you have made a great job on this project - there is no real reason
to complain. But we have two distinct communities - the mailing list
community, and the message board community - and the traditions of these
communities sometimes clash. It is as simple as that.

If we can all be polite and tolerant we can avoid this clash escalating!

/Carl

From: "Arjan" <arjan@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Look, I did the best i could to intergrate the forum AND the mailinglist.
> The script isnt perfect but still a very good addon for both info systems.
> I am still figuring out how to perfect the script so that both sides are
> happy with it.
>

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[irdeggman]

On stone versus wood bridges - one of my players built a stone bridge and essentially ended up cutting off the ability to quickly move troops up river since any ship capable of carrying any useful number of troops was too large to fit under his stone bridge.;)

[Birthright-L]

My players did this - on purpose. After having been subject to one too many
naval raids up the river, they built a combined fortress and bridge to block
river passage. This also required that all cargoes be re-loaded at their
port, where taxing them was easy. So it works both ways.

/Carl


> irdeggman wrote:
> On stone versus wood bridges - one of my players built a stone bridge and
> essentially ended up cutting off the ability to quickly move troops up
river
> since any ship capable of carrying any useful number of troops was too
large
> to fit under his stone bridge.;)

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Arjan

Look, I did the best i could to intergrate the forum AND the mailinglist. The script isnt perfect but still a very good addon for both info systems. I am still figuring out howto perfect the script so that both sides are happy with it. So far only a hand full is complaining.....
You realy did a great job! My comment should have been only a general information and should represent the "advantages" of the forum part. I didn't want to get insulting to someone...

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 13:33, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:

> If you still prefer using BR-L, quote like this:
>
Text, text, text

Nope, not gonna do it. I will always like the email list vastly better,
and tailor my presentation to its natural format.

Ryan Caveney

me too

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 17:42, Raesene Andu wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1485

Raesene Andu wrote:

Originally posted by Mourn

1. Ferry`s, as already suggested would be a good way to move good around,
or perhaps barges and riverboats. The novel WAR talks a little about the
various ways of transporting goods downriver to the Imperial City, which
I imagine means a trade route. The Ferry (in one form or another) has
been around virtually forever...

Personally, where a port city exists on a map, I assume that ships
visit. I also assume that such ships can get to the other side of the
river at some point even if not a a port. Therefore a route exists from
one side of the river to another (as long as you control a ship that
is).



2. I`d always go with stone bridges if I was a player. As a DM I always
hope to see some nice wooden bridges to wash away in the next seasons
floods...

It`s been a bone of contention regarding what are rules are for
mechanics and what are setting details. Stone v Wood bridges are setting
details to my mind. A way across the river for goods is a rule mechanic
- hell you could magic them across if you wanted.

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[Eosin the Red]

> irdeggman wrote:
> On stone versus wood bridges - one of my players built a stone bridge and essentially ended up cutting off the ability to quickly move troops up river since any ship capable of carrying any useful number of troops was too large to fit under his stone bridge.;)


I thought that you could not bridge a river that was nagavible by a naval vessel?

I personally think that several methods are valid for a TR to cross a river (riverport [blue cities on the map], ferry, or bridge). The wording in the d20 doc implies that only a bridge works - but that you cannot bridge navigable rivers. Perhaps, this might be an area where wording could be clarified in the d20 0.2 release?

Eosin

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[kgauck]

Historically boat traffic was much larger than overland traffic. This is
why cities were on rivers. The Rhine and the Loire were real avenues of
commerce, overland roads were not.

IMC, I tend to imagine trade routes moving along rivers whenever possible.

Ferry traffic should outnumber bridge traffic (especially stone bridges) for
some time.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[JediSeth]

Strange conunudrum - The Regent X (FTR 8, major) takes a follower (FTR 9, unblooded). He invest`s that person with his bloodline and leaves. Now the original FTR 9 unblooded is a (FTR 9, Major, XXX). He takes the leadership feat - now his effective level is an 11 and he gets a 10th level unblooded follower ;0

From the DMG p.45:

Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of the character's Leadership score, he can't recruit a cohort of his level or higher. A 6th-level paladin with a +3 Charisma bonus, for example, can still only recruit a cohort of 5th level or lower.

Doesn't seem like much of a conundrum to me. I haven't read through the complete BRCS yet, but I would hope they didn't override that particular balancing aspect of the leadership feat.

**Edit
The Level would be character level, not ECL, thus a blooded FTR8 could still only attrack 7th level cohorts.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by JediSeth






Strange conunudrum - The Regent X (FTR 8, major) takes a follower (FTR 9, unblooded). He invest`s that person with his bloodline and leaves. Now the original FTR 9 unblooded is a (FTR 9, Major, XXX). He takes the leadership feat - now his effective level is an 11 and he gets a 10th level unblooded follower ;0

From the DMG p.45:

Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of the character's Leadership score, he can't recruit a cohort of his level or higher. A 6th-level paladin with a +3 Charisma bonus, for example, can still only recruit a cohort of 5th level or lower.

Doesn't seem like much of a conundrum to me. I haven't read through the complete BRCS yet, but I would hope they didn't override that particular balancing aspect of the leadership feat.

**Edit
The Level would be character level, not ECL, thus a blooded FTR8 could still only attrack 7th level cohorts.

Actually we did. It is a variant in Chapter 8. While the DMG makes that reference it also doesn't address whether or not to use the character's ECL level in this case. We extrapolated (based on how ECL was used in other uses - you use ECL to determine the relative equipment and gold a player has (see savage species), etc.) 2d ed Birthright also had the character's level being modified based on his blood line strength and cohorts are the conversion of what henchmen used to be and Lts were "special" henchmen (they counted towards the maximum number of henchmen a character was allowed). Also note that there is no limit to the level a cohort may obtain, the level limit specified is the "starting level" of a cohort, there is also no maximum number of cohorts a character can have (in the DMG).

Now this may end up being revised in 3.5. I hope they put some effort into, as its written now it appears an add-on which should really have been in the PHB and not the DMG, since that is where all feats should be described.:)

[JediSeth]

Actually we did. It is a variant in Chapter 8. While the DMG makes that reference it also doesn't address whether or not to use the character's ECL level in this case. We extrapolated (based on how ECL was used in other uses - you use ECL to determine the relative equipment and gold a player has (see savage species), etc.) 2d ed Birthright also had the character's level being modified based on his blood line strength and cohorts are the conversion of what henchmen used to be and Lts were "special" henchmen (they counted towards the maximum number of henchmen a character was allowed). Also note that there is no limit to the level a cohort may obtain, the level limit specified is the "starting level" of a cohort, there is also no maximum number of cohorts a character can have (in the DMG).

Doh! I've only made it to chapter 3... just downloaded the pdf over the weekend. I would have not used ECL as part of character level for determining cohort levels. Certainly the blooded templates would qualify you for the special powers bonus to increase your leadership score, and if you were a member of a well known bloodline, you've got the fame and infamy bonus to increase the leadership score as well. Of course, you're right again... there is no limit to the levels a cohort can gain after he's arrived to serve at the players side.

I suppose I'll just go merily about my way, and limit my players regardless of what the BRCS says about ecl and leadership, and worry about issues with investing a higher level cohort when the pop up. :-P

[irdeggman]

JediSeth,
Remember that the BRCS is only the first iteration of the process. Many people seem to think that it is the "final" say and is "official". There is still along way to go until we reach the "official" product and input/comments/suggestions are a necessary part of that process.:)