Ship yards in D20

[Rhobher Nichaleir]

In the Innocence lost playtest game a question came up about shipyards and they negotiated a solution.

http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/vi...p?t=18&start=30 (http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/viewtopic.php?t=18&start=30)

The problem is that by the current rules only Avanil can build Galleons.

The solution they came up with is in the thread.

[AnakinMiller]

I do find it yet another glaring deficiency in the new d20 rules that only
someone with a max shipyard in a level 8+ province can build galleons.

Guess its just another gross oversight in the d20 book. But then again we
have to be 3e compliant. Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
least one.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rhobher Nichaleir" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Ship yards in D20 [36#1496]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1496
>
> Rhobher Nichaleir wrote:
> In the Innocence lost playtest game a question came up about shipyards
and they negotiated a solution.
>
> http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/vi...p?t=18&start=30 (http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/viewtopic.php?t=18&start=30)
>
> The problem is that by the current rules only Avanil can build Galleons.
>
> The solution they came up with is in the thread.
>
>
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[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Atarikid wrote:
> I do find it yet another glaring deficiency in the new d20 rules that only
> someone with a max shipyard in a level 8+ province can build galleons.
>
> Guess its just another gross oversight in the d20 book. But then again we
> have to be 3e compliant. Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
> can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
> least one.

Don`t be a troll. That`s not an oversight, it`s a design decision.
Galleons are the most advanced ships possible in Anuire. Not everyone
should be able to build them.

And you don`t find it a glaring oversight. You didn`t even notice until
someone pointed it out. So stop being so mock-offended.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[AnakinMiller]

> And you don`t find it a glaring oversight. You didn`t even notice until
> someone pointed it out. So stop being so mock-offended.

Hold on Daniel,

I`m the one that brought it to light in the Inncocent Lost discussion forum.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Birthright-L]

IMC, only the imperial city could build galleons at the start of the game.
But they sold them to everyone. It was a major source of income to them.

/Carl

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[irdeggman]

Is there a reason for the condescending tones here?

IMO the real problem with the shipyards and build cost of ships is the "build cost" of the vessels. Note - who could build a Zebec? 17GB build cost.

From a personal/professional level, I will point out that it is very, very expensive to build a vessel and very, very expensive to maintain a shipyard's building capacity.

I've worked at Norfolk Naval Shipyard (NNSY) for over 20 years and do know something about shipyards and their overhead expenses. Oh by the way NNSY is the "oldest" naval yard in the US and the second largest naval shipyard in the world. Up until about 8 years ago it was the largest. It is also a stone throw away from Newport News Shipbuilding - the "only" facility in the world capable of building a Nimitz class carrier.([_]

[Green Knight]

That was pretty insightful, and very eloqulent.

>
> Fra: Atarikid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET>
> Dato: 2003/03/27 Thu PM 06:29:55 CET
> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Emne: Re: Ship yards in D20 [36#1496]
>
> I do find it yet another glaring deficiency in the new d20 rules that only
> someone with a max shipyard in a level 8+ province can build galleons.
>
> Guess its just another gross oversight in the d20 book. But then again we
> have to be 3e compliant. Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
> can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
> least one.
>
> -Anakin Miller
> -------------------------
> "What was sundered, shall be remade.
> What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
> - Engraved on the Crown of Diemed
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rhobher Nichaleir" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
> To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:19 AM
> Subject: Ship yards in D20 [36#1496]
>
>
> > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> > You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1496
> >
> > Rhobher Nichaleir wrote:
> > In the Innocence lost playtest game a question came up about shipyards
> and they negotiated a solution.
> >
> > http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/vi...p?t=18&start=30 (http://www.crownofglory.us/messageBoard/viewtopic.php?t=18&start=30)
> >
> > The problem is that by the current rules only Avanil can build Galleons.
> >
> > The solution they came up with is in the thread.
> >
> >
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Cheers
Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------
WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no
-------------------------------------------------

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[Birthright-L]

Fleets have always been expensive. Only the riches nations of history ever
built large fleet. But in antiquity, they generally generated was wealth
through control of trade routes. A large fleet is a sign of an empire.

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[Mark_Aurel]

I do find it yet another glaring deficiency in the new d20 rules that only
someone with a max shipyard in a level 8+ province can build galleons.

Guess its just another gross oversight in the d20 book. But then again we
have to be 3e compliant. Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
least one.

-Anakin Miller


Yeah, I guess any grandpa in a fishing village could whip up a galleon on his spare time if he went for it.

It could also be that most of those galleons came from the same shipyard(s), and were purchased, not built, by the "power" in question.

Building a vessel the size of a galleon requires a lot of expertise and manpower in medieval terms; most fishing villages would be able to construct their own little fishing vessels, but they'd most definitely not be able to whip a caravel, far less a galleon. It'd also cost ruinous amounts for a small nation to build up the expertise and equipment necessary to do so, especially when you consider the "Birthright scale." As I recall, Venice was producing ships on a fairly industrial basis in late medieval/renaissance Europe. Then again, Venice had a population larger than the majority of Anuirean "nations." Reminds me of something, maybe. Or, it could just be gross oversight on my part.

It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000 people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it, Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.

However, there is a couple of holes that need to be plugged concerning that rule, but they aren't necessarily related to your complaint.

[Lord Grave]

>
> It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
> largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
> people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it,
> Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.
>

Please tell me you meant Avanil, not Alamie.

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[AnakinMiller]

> It could also be that most of those galleons came from the same
shipyard(s), and were purchased, not built, by the "power" in question.

Yes but Darien Avan controls the old Imperial Ship yard. Why would he
allow Aeric Boeruine or any of that axis to purchase these ships? If Avanil
is the only one capable of producing the Galleons why does any non-allied
power have them? Why hasn`t there been an attempt to destroy the galleons
of foreign powers and then reign supreme at sea due to the fact that he and
he alone controls the production of galleons.

Also how is anyone in Khinasi building or even owning Zebecs? They can not
be built the way the rules stand ANYWHERE in khinasi. Whats the party line
of logic to explain that?

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[AnakinMiller]

> It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
> largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
> people, to be churning out the galleons.

Ok then I guess it is just as "realistic" for Avan to be selling Galleons to
his archrival and life long foe Aeric Boeruine. Sure, lets make sure our
archnemesis is supplied with the most powerful warships in Anuire.....

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[ConjurerDragon]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

>Fleets have always been expensive. Only the riches nations of history ever
>built large fleet. But in antiquity, they generally generated was wealth
>through control of trade routes. A large fleet is a sign of an empire.
>
Such as ancient China and Russia or the Mongols? ;-)

Certainly the german Empire did rush to build a fleet in a try to match
the british seapower - however the main focus of some empires is on
land. And Anuire does have less of a naval tradition than Brechtür or
Khinasi.

No realm in Anuire stays out in my eyes to be the "England" of Anuire
and have naval superiority - that would be more fitting for a Khinasi
island realm.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Mark_Aurel wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1496
>...Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
>can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
>least one.
>-Anakin Miller
>[/quote]
>
>Yeah, I guess any grandpa in a fishing village could whip up a galleon on his spare time if he went for it.
>It could also be that most of those galleons came from the same shipyard(s), and were purchased, not built, by the "power" in question.
>Building a vessel the size of a galleon requires a lot of expertise and manpower in medieval terms; most fishing villages would be able to construct their own little fishing vessels, but they`d most definitely not be able to whip a caravel, far less a galleon. It`d also cost ruinous amounts for a small nation to build up the expertise and equipment necessary to do so, especially when you consider the "Birthright scale." As I recall, Venice was producing ships on a fairly industrial basis in late medieval/renaissance Europe. Then again, Venice had a population larger than the majority of Anuirean "nations." Reminds me of something, maybe. Or, it could just be gross oversight on my part.
>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000 people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it, Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.
>However, there is a couple of holes that need to be plugged concerning that rule, but they aren`t necessarily related to your complaint.
>
Anakin is correct in that I, too see it as undesirable to have only 1
province in Anuire able to produce galleons.

I read through it and the draft 0.0 requires a shipyard of larger than
half the ships value to build the ship.
Galleon 15 GB, shipyard at least 8 (8X2=16 so o.k. to build galleon). A
shipyard can exist only in a province of similar level, son only level 8
provinces would fit and this leaves only Anuire city. Even worse, a
Zhebec could be built only in a province of level 9 :-(

The DMG gives prices for warships and galleys of 25000 gp to 30.000 gp
(p. 150 DMG). According to the Community and wealth rules on p. 137 DMG
these ships should be able to be built in Large Citys and Metropolis of
population 12000 onward.
p. 88 of the draft 0.0 rules sets Large Citys and populations equal or
higher to that from level 7 onward.

It would seem much more approbiate to me if not only Anuire City, but at
least also Illien and Anuire province could build galleons, but to me
personally this still is not enough.

The 2E rules had no written limit on where large ships could be built,
only that sea trade routes needed at least a level 4 province with
access to water. However building was possible, just more expensive in
smaller provinces and using the build rate of 1D6 per season would take
considerably longer. Even the draft 0.0 has this lowlevel province, 150%
up to 200% higher build cost rule.

I would suggest NOT to create an Anuire City Monopoly on Galleons which
would be COMPLETELY different from the 2E version where no such
restriction existed.

Rather I suggest to change the rules to a shipyard being able to build
ships of 3 instead of 2 times the shipyards size and thus galleons in
provinces of level 5+. And if a ruler REALLY wants to build a galleon
himself and he has only a level 3 province, then let him do so at
extraorbitant costs. Certainly it is difficult and extremely expensive
to build an advanced ship at a desolate place, but if one ruler is rich
or insane enough then let him do and pay for it.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Atarikid wrote:

>>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
>>largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
>>people, to be churning out the galleons.
>>
>Ok then I guess it is just as "realistic" for Avan to be selling Galleons to
>his archrival and life long foe Aeric Boeruine. Sure, lets make sure our
>archnemesis is supplied with the most powerful warships in Anuire.....
>-Anakin Miller
>
No, the Chamberlain would sell them to both of them and ;-)
Anuire province is only level 7, only Anuire City has the sufficient
level according to the draft 0.0 rules.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

Every nation with a large fleet is an empire - but not every empire has a
large fleet. :)

/Carl

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[ConjurerDragon]

Milos Rasic wrote:

>>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
>>largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
>>people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it,
>>Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.
>>
>
>Please tell me you meant Avanil, not Alamie.
>
I assume he used sarcasme or irony and REALLY wanted to say Alamie
(which has a port city) to show that they should not be able to build
galleons under the draft rules.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
Rather I suggest to change the rules to a shipyard being able to build
ships of 3 instead of 2 times the shipyards size and thus galleons in
provinces of level 5+. And if a ruler REALLY wants to build a galleon
himself and he has only a level 3 province, then let him do so at
extraorbitant costs. Certainly it is difficult and extremely expensive
to build an advanced ship at a desolate place, but if one ruler is rich
or insane enough then let him do and pay for it.
bye
Michael Romes


I second the opinion of allowing shipyards to build 3xlevel in worth of ships, which would allow Galleys in level 5 provinces only if they have maximum level shipyards, which would symbolize heavy interest in the shipping industry.

I see no need for allowing rulers to build their own galleys regrdless, though. He should either improve his home to allow for building (with rule actions - this is what the insane should do), go to another ruler and purchase one (diplomacy? - this is what the rich should do) or let the DM adjudicate a price (adventure or build action - this is allowing the GM to decide if he thinks it should be possible and at what cost, depending upon campaign needs)