New monster type for awnshegliens?

[Azrai]

I thought about the several monster types of awnshegliens or ershegliens. For some it is not easy to find the right classification. Especially the humanoid creatures make problems.

Most predefined types don't fit perfectly. This holds e.g. for the Manslayer or the Raven. Maybe some general method should be found.

What about defining an extra monster type, awnsheglien, ersheglien?

[Nikolai II]

How about having it as a denominator?

Magian: Undead (evil) (outsider) (awnsheligen)

or something..?

[Azrai]

Yep, for the Magian it is easy, the Undead type fits. But not for other awnshegliens.

[Mark_Aurel]

Awnsheghlien (and also ehrsheghlien) are defined as a subtype. It is generally pretty easy to fit any of the existing ones into the standard types. There's really no need to mess more than necessary with the type system, especially considering the rather small number of awnsheghlien-specific effects there are, if any.

Why does awnsheghlien of the humanoid type cause problems? Rhuobhe is a humanoid (awnshegh) and Raven is at this point probably a monstrous humanoid (awnshegh). Granted, I might see a case that some might make for making Rhuobhe a "monstrous" humanoid, but his anatomical changes really aren't that pronounced.

The siren would be a humanoid. Ghuralli and the Binman seems like good cases for construct awnsheghlien. Magian is definitely undead; the Vampire is more debatable - he could also be seen as a monstrous humanoid. Swordhawk - monstrous humanoid. The Wolf and the Boar - magical beasts. The Banshegh is an interesting case, though, but hardly insoluble - it depends on how you view her history and how you view the nature of the transformation; there was some interesting debate on this a while ago.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Awnsheghlien (and also ehrsheghlien) are defined as a subtype. It is generally pretty easy to fit any of the existing ones into the standard types. There's really no need to mess more than necessary with the type system, especially considering the rather small number of awnsheghlien-specific effects there are, if any.

I don't think it is that easy. You have to think also of creatures wich have the bloodform abilites (also player characters). For them each DM has to choose wich type fits best. This could be complicated.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Azrai



Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Awnsheghlien (and also ehrsheghlien) are defined as a subtype. It is generally pretty easy to fit any of the existing ones into the standard types. There's really no need to mess more than necessary with the type system, especially considering the rather small number of awnsheghlien-specific effects there are, if any.

I don't think it is that easy. You have to think also of creatures wich have the bloodform abilites (also player characters). For them each DM has to choose wich type fits best. This could be complicated.

Actually if they are player characters then the DM should be working with the player to determine what are the most accuracte characteristics that the define the charater. If they can't come up with any then they character probably wasn't/isn't very well developed. This is one of the reason I tried to have my players write up character histories so that they (and I ) could come up with a "focus" for what their player's are trying to accomplish and how the usually "act". It definitely helps with role-playing.:)

[Azrai]

Ok, it is right that the available monster types cover all aspects of common D&D monsters. But Birthright is a special case.

- Awnshegliens have the essence of divine energy
- Some awnsheglien can shapechange into different forms

Concerning the shapechange abilitiy, this is really hard to put into one type. Are they shapechangers, or just magical beasts? Or could one say that the shapechange is a linear process?

I have really problems with the Raven.

Where does an anatomic change start to make them a beast?

I am not shure what would be the best.

[Nikolai II]

My thought (and wish) would be that one usually could use the most obvious type.

I like the heterogenity of the awnsheglien, and if they were of several different types it would shine clearer that anything can have divine essence, and it would make it easier to differentiate them and have the difference mean something.

Sure, we could create a monster type with good save= all, hit dice d12 and a bonus feat per hit dice and so on, but I don't like the idea.

Shapechanging is an ability, not a type. Werewolves don't get another type just because they can shift between humanoid and monstrous humanoid, (and magical beast).
Just decide which is the basic type (core type) and stick with it.

The Chimaira is a magical beast, nowadays, just like a lvl20 monk would be an outsider, so there is prejudice for changing type easily. (As easily as going from lvl19 to lvl20 at least)

Anatomy doesn't enter the equation, either they are one type or they are another, depending upon where they would fit the best. I won't comment on the raven since it was a while since I read the books, but I would suggest that if some creatures are hard to place, then put them up for vote, open a thread for the discussion where people are allowed to post their opinion and then either follow the majority or the most sensible explanation.

(Ramble ramble :P )

[Ariadne]

I have seen that some creature types aren't listed in the "create an awnshegh" part. Example: Outsider, giant, dragon. Is it completely impossible to create an awnshegh/ ershegh of this type or is it only forgotten...

[Mark_Aurel]

A couple of types were left out on purpose; giant is supposed to be in there, though.

Shapechanger is no longer a type of its own, but a subtype.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Nikolai II
Shapechanging is an ability, not a type. Werewolves don't get another type just because they can shift between humanoid and monstrous humanoid, (and magical beast).
Just decide which is the basic type (core type) and stick with it..

Thats not true in the official 3. Edition. "Shapechange" is a monster type. Lycanthrope is indeed a template, but the creature type changes to "Shapechanger". That is EXACTLY the problem.



Anatomy doesn't enter the equation, either they are one type or they are another, depending upon where they would fit the best.

The anatomy changes slowly, not rapidly. So when does the "beast" start?

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
A couple of types were left out on purpose; giant is supposed to be in there.

Could you define "on purpose"? Where is the Outsider, Dragon or Elemental?

Good we are talking about it.

[irdeggman]

Actually per Savage Species, which is supposed to be forward compatable with 3.5, shapechager is a sub-type now. For example humanoid (shapechanger) would describe a human werewolf, of course the creature would also have the lycanthrope template.

Dragon #302 had an interesting prestige class, the tainted, which did a progression based upon the type of fiend that infected the character.

IMO many posibilities exist by using an appropriate type from the MM (or savage species and upcoming 3.5), Also per savage species a creature has one main type and then various subtypes. Only the type should be used for this purpose.:)

[Ariadne]

My question is still not answered: Is it IMPOSSIBLE to create an awnsheglien/ersheglien with the outsider, dragon or elemental type?

[Mark_Aurel]

Outsider - this type is defined by its planar connections, not by its anatomical makeup. That basically rules it out for Cerilian purposes. (Actually, there is one that might qualify, the Blowfish, mentioned in one of the Planescape expansions, but I prefer to think of him more as an aberration [yes, pun intended; the section on that creature had some interesting musings on the nature of bloodlines in any case]).

Elemental - basically the same as outsider. I'd generally rather use a descriptor and a different type to handle cases of elementalistic awnsheghlien; the Hoarfrost awnsheghlien (can't recall physical description, and thus type at the moment) would be a cold creature (not a straight elemental example, of course, but still relevant).

Dragon - avoided simply for the reason of keeping dragons "special." The Warlock might qualify, but I think I'd rather peg him as humanoid (shapechanger) with the ability to change into a dragon-like form.

Another reason for avoiding these types is that the rules at least partially have PC use in mind; any sane player would choose either Dragon or Outsider for his type if he could, from a minmax perspective.


Thats not true in the official 3. Edition. "Shapechange" is a monster type. Lycanthrope is indeed a template, but the creature type changes to "Shapechanger". That is EXACTLY the problem.


No, Shapechanger has ceased to be a type of its own, like I noted previously and Duane later also noted. Not quite sure what the problem you're pointing to is; if you have problems pegging which awnshegh has what type, I'll be happy to help.


The anatomy changes slowly, not rapidly. So when does the "beast" start?

On activation of the blood ability, basically. I.e. once you start transforming, your type changes. This may seem illogical, especially considering that transformative prestige classes take several levels to take effect, but in this case, consider that you are essentially taking levels of the monster type from the first HD you advance as awnshegh onwards. Getting a type change is simply the base blood ability benefit. That's from a game mechanical point of view, of course, and the physical transformation is nowhere near complete at that point. You could probably weave some RP elements into it - "he may look like a man, but in his heart, he is a [magical] beast" (literally).

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Elemental - basically the same as outsider. I'd generally rather use a descriptor and a different type to handle cases of elementalistic awnsheghlien; the Hoarfrost awnsheghlien (can't recall physical description, and thus type at the moment) would be a cold creature (not a straight elemental example, of course, but still relevant).


Azrai's breath I ruled as some sort of air elemental IIRC. Else I agree that Dragons should be shunned, outsiders avoided (imported) and elementals avoided (wierd change).

[Mourn]

Outsiders are nonelemental beings that come from a different plane of existence. Some can be from the Shadow World.

Dragons are ancient, reptilian creatures of great power, intelligence and magic. There is a possibility of a dragon becoming an awnsheghlien, but I don't really think the reverse is entirely appropriate.

Elementals are beings composed of one of the four basic elements... by definition, they are not extraplanar creatures, and could be native to Cerilia. It should be possible for the awnsheghlien (or ehrsheghlien) to assume an elemental type and form.

[Birthright-L]

From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Elementals are beings composed of one of the four basic elements... by
definition, they are not extraplanar creatures, and could be native to
Cerilia. It should be possible for the awnsheghlien (or ehrsheghlien) to
assume an elemental type and form.
>
>

In fact, the Gorgon seems to be an elemental.

/Carl

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ariadne]

What's about so called native outsiders? The most famous (and greatly discussed) example is a 20th level monk. Naturally several PrC's grant "native outsider" as a 10th level ability (example: Alienist of "tome and blood").

Same is for elemental (see "elemental servant" of the "tome and blood" for example).

[irdeggman]

Remember we are talking about monster types here and not special qualities that simulate them. So keeping that in mind per the Monster Manual II (I like its write ups better than those in MM):

Outsider - An outsider is a nonelemental creature that comes from another dimension, reality, or plane, has an ancestor from such a place or undergoes a change that makes it similar to such creatures.

Elemental - An elemental is a creature composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

It doesn't say that elementals come from other planes, so they could easily be seen as an awnshegh monster type. Of course awnshegh are all singular in nature so there would only be 1 fire, 1 air, etc. types.

While an outsider type could be a creature that undergoes a change (sounds very much like an awnshegh's transformation) they are not native to Aebrynis and hence should generally be discouraged.

These are just my opinions and 3.5 may rewrite some of these definitions.

You would never have an awnshegh that is transforming into a monk. They don't transform into a class they transform into a type of monster.:)

[Mark_Aurel]

What's about so called native outsiders? The most famous (and greatly discussed) example is a 20th level monk. Naturally several PrC's grant "native outsider" as a 10th level ability (example: Alienist of "tome and blood").

Same is for elemental (see "elemental servant" of the "tome and blood" for example).


There's a new monster subtype in 3.5 as well - "extraplanar" - to solve the headaches caused by the outsider/native outsider issues.

Of course, you could then argue that the outsider type should be usable for awnsheghlien - but I still think not; outsiders are still defined by their origin, not their physical makeup; i.e. a devil is not extraplanar in Hell. Outsiders native to the Shadow World? No, I rather think there'd be undead and some [evil] fey there, if anything at all - it's a pretty bleak and empty place for the most part.


Azrai's breath I ruled as some sort of air elemental IIRC. Else I agree that Dragons should be shunned, outsiders avoided (imported) and elementals avoided (wierd change).

Hmmm, that's a good point - I'd forgotten about that one. It really would be most appropriate with an elemental type there. The thing that separates that creature from others debated here, though, is its origin - it's supposedly a creature created from whole cloth, not evolved from another. Still a good point, though.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
Outsider - An outsider is a nonelemental creature that comes from another dimension, reality, or plane, has an ancestor from such a place or undergoes a change that makes it similar to such creatures.


I like this description much better than the MM I posted, as well. I hope 3.5 using this change too.


While an outsider type could be a creature that undergoes a change (sounds very much like an awnshegh's transformation) they are not native to Aebrynis and hence should generally be discouraged.

Ummm... no?

Remember the key word in the phrase about undergoing a change... SIMILAR. They are SIMILAR to such creatures, but may not actually be one. An awnshegh may become so corrupt, twisted, and vile, that he does not resemble any creature from this plane of existence, which would make him an outsider. The very description you quote lends credence to this being appropriate.

A creature is only a non-native of Aebrynis if it has the (Extraplanar) subtype, if we're already making allowances for 3.5.


You would never have an awnshegh that is transforming into a monk. They don't transform into a class they transform into a type of monster.:)

Hmmm.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Outsiders native to the Shadow World? No, I rather think there'd be undead and some [evil] fey there, if anything at all - it's a pretty bleak and empty place for the most part.


Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Mourn
Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

I wouldn't. I see the shadow world as Aebrynis mirror image, now twisted and distorted into a shadowy undead replica of it self.

It's either that or halflings are outsiders..;)

[Mark_Aurel]

Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

What comes from the Shadow World or dwells therein? Halflings came from the Shadow World before it was darkened; other, similar creatures (basically, fey) still dwell there, but twisted. Since the Cold Rider arrived, the undead have been piling on. Some of these undead probably have dual existences (ghosts, wraiths and the like); others would be considered extraplanar if they were to enter Cerilia.

Like I tried to explain, the new official line will separate "outsider" from "extraplanar" - the concept of outsider might better be defined now as "powerful creature from the outer planes" than "nonelemental extraplanar."


Remember the key word in the phrase about undergoing a change... SIMILAR. They are SIMILAR to such creatures, but may not actually be one. An awnshegh may become so corrupt, twisted, and vile, that he does not resemble any creature from this plane of existence, which would make him an outsider. The very description you quote lends credence to this being appropriate.


Ummm ... no. If he became so corrupt, twisted and vile that he does not -resemble- any creature from this world, he'd be pegged as an aberration. Outsiders tend to resemble creatures from this world anyway; celestials are humans with feathered wings, and devils are humans with bat wings, horns, and a bad attitude. If he's really as physically twisted as you say, aberration would be a better type; he wouldn't suddenly come from Far Beyond or the Abyss in any case. Aberrations are basically what you described - real ugly mother fudgers.

Outsider is a state of being more than it is an anatomical description, which is what we want here.

[Birthright-L]

From: "Nikolai II" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> It`s either that or halflings are outsiders..;)
>

Not every creature from another plane is an outsider. Summoned creatures are
extraplanar, but most of them are still just animals (Check out the
infernaland fiendish templates - they do not change the type into outsider).
Similarily, halflings might originally have been extraplanar as a species,
but their type was always Humanoid, and present-day halflings are no longer
of extraplanar origin.

A case can be made for Sidhelien being fey rather than humanoid, however.
After all, they are a lot more alien than regular elves.

/Carl

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
What comes from the Shadow World or dwells therein? Halflings came from the Shadow World before it was darkened; other, similar creatures (basically, fey) still dwell there, but twisted. Since the Cold Rider arrived, the undead have been piling on. Some of these undead probably have dual existences (ghosts, wraiths and the like); others would be considered extraplanar if they were to enter Cerilia.

This I agree with.


Like I tried to explain, the new official line will separate "outsider" from "extraplanar" - the concept of outsider might better be defined now as "powerful creature from the outer planes" than "nonelemental extraplanar."

Yes, I know. In fact, in my post, I brought up the new description that was quoted, and I will do it again.

Outsider - An outsider is a nonelemental creature that comes from another dimension, reality, or plane, has an ancestor from such a place or undergoes a change that makes it similar to such creatures.

That's the key phrase there. If it undergoes a change to make it similar to an outsider, then it should be treated as an outsider, pure and simple.

Also, gods are defined as outsiders by the rules. If a person has the blood of a god within their veins, then by the definition listed above, they could qualify for the type.


Ummm ... no. If he became so corrupt, twisted and vile that he does not -resemble- any creature from this world, he'd be pegged as an aberration.

According to description of Aberration (defined as a creature with bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three), nearly every monster in any source should be an abberation. The Gorgon has bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, and an alien mindset. As does the Spider. The Ogre. Hell, even normal outsider creatures such as demons and devils fall under this umbrella by the description.


Outsiders tend to resemble creatures from this world anyway; celestials are humans with feathered wings, and devils are humans with bat wings, horns, and a bad attitude.

And pretty much EVERY creature has some kind of feature that a creature from this world possesses. However, most otusiders do are not merely humanoids with wings and some horns and claws.

A few do... barghest (in goblin form), most celestials do (hound archons have animal features, which touches on monstrous humanoid), a few demons (most are substantially different enough from "humanoids with wings"), a few devils (same as demons), genies do, night hag (if this creature doesn't belong in the Shadow World, I don't know what does), planetouched... etc... etc...

At least half (and probably more) of the outsiders listed in the core books are not humanoid in nature, and do not fit into your "humanoid with wings" categorization of outsiders.


If he's really as physically twisted as you say, aberration would be a better type; he wouldn't suddenly come from Far Beyond or the Abyss in any case. Aberrations are basically what you described - real ugly mother fudgers.

Read what I wrote again. Tell me where I typed in the words "physically twisted." Wait, let me answer that... I didn't. I said corrupted, twisted, and vile.... and not all aberrations have to be corrupted... or twisted... or vile... they merely have to have a bizarre anatomy (physical), special abilities (supernatural), or an alien mindset (mental).


Outsider is a state of being more than it is an anatomical description, which is what we want here.

And undead is a state of being, rather than an anatomoical description, as well, but there seem to be no problems with that.

And again I stress.... if they are SIMILAR to an outsider, they are treated as an outsider.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by Nikolai II
I wouldn't. I see the shadow world as Aebrynis mirror image, now twisted and distorted into a shadowy undead replica of it self.


You see it that way, but the BRCS sees it as a seperate world.

"A rift was formed between the elements of permanence and transience, creating two worlds where once there was one." BRCS Playtest Document, page 51

And here's another.

"The other world is called the Shadow World, a realm of fairy enchantment separate from, but parallel to, Aebrynis."

And since dimension door, dimension walk and other similar spells employ the Shadow World (whereas in the core rules, they use the astral plane), it is still considered a separate plane.


It's either that or halflings are outsiders..;)

They could be outsiders. Or they could be humanoid (extraplanar)... actually, no they couldn't be extraplanar, if they were born on Aebrynis, since it would be their native plane.

They fit the outsider description, with their origin lying in another world. However, they also fit the humanoid description (two arms, two legs, one head, humanlike torso, arms and head. Few supernatural or extraordinary abilities, and Small or Medium-size).