Raising your bloodline with regency

[Lawgiver]

The rules say that you can raise your bloodline by spending regency = to your current score plus one (i.e. if 27, raising it to 28 would cost 28 regency).

Does this seem a little difficult to raise your bloodline? I mean if I generate 27 regency for a Domain Turn - why would I want to shoot the moon and waste all the regency generated in a single turn (plus 1!) on a single bloodline point! This makes raising your bloodline near impossible without having to turning to bloodtheft or relics/artifacts to raise it. Its not that easy to consistently build up a stock pile of regency and rule your realm while fighting off the wolves who seek to take it! When you struggle to get regency to make it through a Domain Turn, how can you possibly generate a surplus to raise your bloodline?

I don't think it would be to unreasonable a rule if the PC could generate regency equal to their Domain Power so they would at least have some regency to work with.

Any opinions on the matter?

[Magian]

Not to mention that raising the bloodline strength can only be done once a domain turn. This stretches out a time limit on raising a bloodline strength.

Now as a DM and player I must question the motive behind making this rule change. We have to remember our focus determines our reality, thus what we tend to envelope ourselves with dominates how we see things.

With that to consider we should look at it this way, the difference between 60 and 70 str should be significant. Time limit is 10 seasons to match the 70 plus the 655 RP cost. This signifies a game system where the long term investment is essential as this set up is very conservative and setup for only farsighted rulers to benefit from if they can establish a dynasty.

Now we should look at the length of time a ruler will rule. 5-50 years on average or less from a historical perspective. That is anywhere from 20 to 200 seasons. A lot of RP can be stockpiled in this amount of time. The biggest obstacle to this however is the pace of the game itself, which tends to make such a transformation seem like it will never take place.

This setup does satisfy my idea of how such a regency system should work if it is to be realistic. However so much can be done in one lifetime, so much buildup compared to how much actual buildup has happened over the course of the empire and the post empire. So many wasted actions and resources imo.

On the other hand from a progressive player's standpoint and the short lived pbem's I see your point. It would take the RP income of the Gorgon, Boeruine, and Avanil combined to make the 60 to 70 and then some to spend for turns.

I would say from my experience, this difficulty expresses the power of a strong bloodline and its magnificence. If you allow this process to be expidited you will suffer and explosion of power in your campaign. Regency is not a simple stockpiling of assets, it takes a moderate to conservative, to even sometimes liberal or radical approach to balance everything out, especially during trying times. I like the idea of having more than one front to focus upon when trying to increase one's own strength.

[Yak]

Those with greater bloodlines should have the advantage. As a player I always try to increase my bloodline. One good way is vassalge. It can add to your RP collected. Just save and increase, save and increase. Its difficult, but you don't just give players platemail +5 at the begining of the adventures, they have to work for it.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Magian

Not to mention that raising the bloodline strength can only be done once a domain turn. This stretches out a time limit on raising a bloodline strength.
...
With that to consider we should look at it this way, the difference between 60 and 70 str should be significant. Time limit is 10 seasons to match the 70 plus the 655 RP cost. This signifies a game system where the long term investment is essential as this set up is very conservative and setup for only farsighted rulers to benefit from if they can establish a dynasty.

Now we should look at the length of time a ruler will rule. 5-50 years on average or less from a historical perspective. That is anywhere from 20 to 200 seasons. A lot of RP can be stockpiled in this amount of time. The biggest obstacle to this however is the pace of the game itself, which tends to make such a transformation seem like it will never take place.


My point is this.Say you take a regent who rules for 20 years. Even if you to raise your bloodline once per year (wasting roughly 1/4 of your regency per year... the math isn't 100% depending on growth). At best you can raise your bloodline 20 pts. If you started with a bloodline scor oe 23... oh boy atfter 20 years of wasting countless resources you have a whoping 43. IN the mean time Avan, Boeruine, Gavin and any other regent with half a brain has already romped and stomped all over the board and most likely killed you before you reached the 20 year mark of being a semi-descent regent.

How does one generate the influence to impose vassalage when one can't take care of his own realm.

[Perhelion]

I think that that's just Magian's point: Bloodlines and great dynasties take time to build up, no matter how slow the progress may seem to the player. Besides an increase from 20 to 43 does not seem so paltry in my eyes!
When you start with a relatively modest bloodline of 23, you don't try to compete alone with Boeruine, Avan and much less the Gorgon! Form alliances, curry favour with the powerful and entice the less powerful into serving you! Even the strong must fail when the weak unite against him(/her).
Or go adventuring and seek for less conventionnal ways of raising your bloodline.

[Magian]

Another reinforcing point to add is even if you have weak allies with little RP income they have more actions that just one super power who gains alot of RP. RP alone is not sheer power how it is used and executed can overturn any senario.

Just like a character with 100 hp fighting a character with 1 hp can loss with a critical hit. Think of a party of low level hp characters after this guy, the chances of defeating the biggy increase.

The RP income and domain size are linear but they are only two dimensions of influence at work in this game. This is not hack and slash system, intrigue is a most powerful virtue in this game. The dynamics of power involve much more than the family bloodline. This system is setup for a traditional party of adventurers to work together to overcome the odds. It stresses that teamwork will overcome thus giving the players a fighter who can provide military might, and priest who can aid in defense and healing, a thief who can get the edge needed through information and espionage, and a wizard who can devastate a great many things. There is more at work here than the bloodline itself. Since it is a lineage that does make a big impact on the game the bld str does matter. Yet the truly worthy always learn to live with their short comings and press on in the face of adversity.

[Lawgiver]

I'm all for intrigue and allies. However, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in allieas and vassals. You don't make so one your vassal at a whim. Even if you succeed it noramlly takes effort to subdue them or keep them in check. A weak PC would be just as subject to the effects of vassalage as an NPC. When someone like Avan, Aeric and Gavin come pounding on your door and your neighbors refuse to help you find yourself in a world of hurt. BY the time you get around to currying your neighbors to help you've drained all your regency on diplomacy and other actions just trying to survive, much less raise your bloodline so you can generate some descent regency income.

Besides a couple of good Contest actions by your opponents and your regency will be devestated. No offense but if your DM lets a regent stockpile Regency consistently then in my opinion something is wrong or the regent is seeking their personal growth more than the growth of the nation. Generally the first year or two you are scratching to survive and build up a good foundation. Thoughts of raising your bloodline are generally not a possibility for most regents.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Magian
Just like a character with 100 hp fighting a character with 1 hp can loss with a critical hit. Think of a party of low level hp characters after this guy, the chances of defeating the biggy increase.

When you join up a bunch of pip sqeeks together in a party the chances of party members being slain also increases. A 100 hp fighter isn't going to go down easy, and 9 times out of 10 he will take at least one person with him. I mean no offense, but if you play realistically, 5 first level PCs verses a 13th level mage are generally toast. You can always spout off theories that you can sneak up oin the guy etc. But don't you thinka 13th level wizard with a 17 inteligence, who has been around the block a while would be a little wiser then to set himself up to be destroyed by such a paltry force?

[Magian]

That is why characters like Avan, Boeruine, Mhoried, Ghoere and the awnsheghlien are not for PC use. The game is balanced in its setup, there is a political stalemate the first one to move will lose more than he gains just like in old Europe. I don't think any big guy will allow another big guy to bully a few small independant city states like endier or ilien without paying a high toll because they are very valuable provinces.

A historic example are the city states of italy in the middle ages. Constant vying for power, and when one made significant gains he found his former allies his new enemies.

[Temujin]

That's normal, a small realm like Medoere or Ilien shouldn't expect to be able to sweep through Anuire, even a neighboring realm in the first few turns. Birthright is built in a way that it takes at least 6 or 8 domain turns for a small power to have any chance of major gain, and that's the way it should be realistically too. You just wouldn't see Naples take out all the Papal States right off the bat, much less stand up to a major power like France or Spain. Would you like to play in a game that allowed a random morronic state to suddenly become a major power because it was run by a PC for about 3 turns? I don't think so.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Temujin

That's normal, a small realm like Medoere or Ilien shouldn't expect to be able to sweep through Anuire, even a neighboring realm in the first few turns. Birthright is built in a way that it takes at least 6 or 8 domain turns for a small power to have any chance of major gain, and that's the way it should be realistically too. You just wouldn't see Naples take out all the Papal States right off the bat, much less stand up to a major power like France or Spain. Would you like to play in a game that allowed a random morronic state to suddenly become a major power because it was run by a PC for about 3 turns? I don't think so.

I whole heartedly agree. Don't get me wrong I don't expect any of the smaller realms to conquer the land and reunite the empire with great speed. I just thought the progression of the bloodline was a little slow. Perhaps adding a blood point if the regent completely conquers a realm wouldn't be to inappropriate (though it would be unbalance 1 province of Ilien vs. the 7 of Coeranys).

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Illien won't re-unite the empire, it will form a new one!

None can withstand the mystic might of the Aglondiers!

(Sorry)

[Lord Eldred]

Gaining blood points by conquering an entire realm doesn't seem out of line.

Remember too that there are other ways to increase your bloodline that doesn't cost so much regency points but are dangerous! However, you would take that risk if you were out to conquer the world.

Both Medoere and Ilien no longer exist as independent provinces in my campaign. They both join Roesone and Oseorde to form the United Provinces of Haelyn. The players in my campaign form a council that is pulling together to expand the realm and thus some day will go up against the more powerful domains.

[Lawgiver]

Note my original intention was to seek bloodline strength with out killing others and avoiding relics and artifacts. Bloodtheft is difficult with out launching a blood bathe. Relics and artifacts leave one open to theft... and thus an EXTREMELY dangerous situation where once expected regency is no void.

[Lord Eldred]

I understood your intention but in fantasy reality that is probably how it would actually have been done.

[Lawgiver]

point taken. Sadly due to my warped personality I prefer realism in roleplaying to fantasy (which is ironic in itself... go figure...).

[Magian]

I think that gaining more domain without spending resources to bring up your bloodline is a way to spread yourself thin. I think that is realistic, given the game circumstances. The game itself/the domain system is centered on the bloodlines and their importance. Making it easy to increase bloodline and regency is like making it easier to get experience points so players. To me its just an excuse to break the rules in favor of the player, not a question of realism.

We obviously see this differently, I value the balance the system gives in regards to the arduous feat of having a bloodline so high. Its not and easy come system and results come from the perseverance of the player and character. I think it should be difficult to get more regency than a character can get according to the rules and bloodtheft is a very dangerous path, if you are renowned for such a thing you quickly become everyone's enemy.

One thing must also be considered in my opinion, if you allow the domain power to be the RP income, what is stopping Ghoere from taking the Iron throne? His domain will give him way more regency that Avan or Boeruine. With the little guys that biggies get more too if you change that rule so I don't see, in an over all perspective the worth of doing it.

It will change the focus on domain which will change the game entirely. May not be bad but the value of the bloodline will drastically decline into a symbolic thing with some ability bonuses. The bloodline is the centre of the campaign cause without it one is just another character. Without the rules like they are then anyone can start a domain cause all they would need is a domain in order to collect regency. That I understand is debatable but I would prefer from the arguments that I have seen to simply keep the RP income the same. I am simply not agreeing with your argument that's all.

[Lawgiver]

I fully agree that without a bloodline a character is just another character... But tell me did you not have aristocracy in your other cmapaigns? The idea of the game is "Birthright", its family based on who rules. The ability of the ruler to rule shouldn't come from the family, it should come from abilities of the ruler. Thus a rules with a crappy bloodling (that is still legitimate!) should be just as fit to rule as Ghoere who simply has a stronger bloodline. Ghoere should make a run on the Iron Throne, after all he has the military mights, etc. The problem is politics and support not the bloodline. Roele is dead and so is the proof of a pure bloodline, even if the Rolele line existed its not the bloodline strength that would determine who rules, but the relationship and family tree that determines the bloodline. If a blooded regent marries and unblooded woman he cuts his blood strength in half. Their son is still the rightful heir, and has a stronger claim to the throne than his second cousin who may have a bloodline strength 3 times his.

I guess I'm in favor of the best candidate rather than the dolt who was born from ancestors that were the closest to a cataclysimic blast several hundred years ago. The game is about politics, intrigue, and diplomacy not the parents of your character...

[Lord Eldred]

I think your bloodline gives you certain advantages to rule but I do think a commoner could lead if they had the right stuff. Thus I think I once again agree with Lawgiver.

[Lawgiver]

Hail Lord Eldred! A fellow brother of reason and profound wisdom!

[Lord Eldred]

Well thanks Lawgiver but on the other posts you were calling me a drunk! Ahh I am a wise drunk ;)

[Lawgiver]

When your mind is clear of the effects of the spirits your true wisdom doth shine!

[Lord Eldred]

I really do hate it when my false wisdom shines :P

[Lord Shaene]

As Do I, Lord Eldred!

Thank Haelyn, its not to often

[Lord Eldred]

Who asked you any way, my friend.

[Sellenus]

wow.

[Arlen Blaede]

I have a small quibble regarding the passage of a bloodline to its progeny. I have always felt that the bloodline wasn't necessarily reliant on genetics so much as "divine right" for lack of a better phrase. I think it would be better for the line to be passed completely to the child no matter if the other parent was unblooded. Is my thinking off on this, or does anyone else agree?

As for Lawgiver's alternate way to increase your bloodline. It seems like it makes sense at first to gain in blood by conquering a domain, you don't really gain anything but more land and people to worry about. I have always felt that the bloodlines took so much effort to increase becuase we are talking about dynasty building here. This means generations of the same ruling family controlling a domain. Put that in league with the an ability to spend RP to increase your blood strength and you could really get some massive changes in strength. Admittedly this doesn't help individual characters in their pursuit of more power. Darn, ain't life just so unfair sometimes.

[Lord Eldred]

Are you arguing that if you have two blooded parents you get the full amount from both?

[Lawgiver]

FOr the genetics I prefer the simple average. I've never really had it influence my gaming sessions. Though a rough middle ground a small modifer of 1d6 may be good for flavor.

You all are leaving out the factors of bloodtheft and intermarriage for the reduction in bloodstrength. I'm not talking about giving out bloodline points like dinner mints.

Additionally conflict and turmoil should thrust people from power at a moments notice. A good coupe or family fued can keep any bloodline from skyrocketing.

[Lord Eldred]

Still interested in Arlene's answer to my question above.

[Green Knight]

Increasing your bloodline strenght should be a slow process. For one character to gain 10 points during two decades of rulership should IMO be considered very good.

Just think about it: what would happen over a couple of generations if blooline increases were more common? You'd have a bunch of andurias, great, 100 chaps running about. That is not very belivable. In fact, in the years after Deismaar, bloodline seem to have gotten weaker, not stronger.

[Temujin]

I also agree it should take time to raise your bloodline with RPs. Yes, its awfully annoying, and nearly useless from the point of view of a character whose campaign probably won't last more than 5 years on average(Mine lasted 12 years before it was too messed up to be worth continuing). But, from another point, I always consider the legacy my character will leave behind. Will I be your average ruler, will I be a mediocre ruler, or will I be one of the few who are remembered?
Rule up your domain, establish strong alliances, perhaps even gaining a few vassals, claim a few new provinces, build fortresses to protect your domain, palaces to entertain your nobility and create the basis for a strong army and navy! Acquire some magical items and gold through adventuring and finally, raise up your bloodline, that you can pass on to your heir, and you truly have been a great ruler.

On the topic of blooded marriage, you'll note that the designors didn't bother to check who a regent was wed to to determine the bloodline strenght of their children(Avan, Alam & Diem come to mind). Its worth pointing out that even if you marry a commoner, your heir can still have a potent bloodline, if you were wise enough to designate him before your death, thus passing on your bloodline to him.