War Moves & Sequence of Play

[zshahroody]

In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved and 3) War Moves & Battles.

Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.

This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?

Also if War Moves are resolved before Domain Actions, doesn't that mean when a regent making war moves in a Domain Round when his/her turn comes up for Domain Actions in the same Domain Round they must take the Move Troops action with one of their available actions?

Thanks

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 13:14, zshahroody wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1557

zshahroody wrote:

In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain
rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved
and 3) War Moves & Battles.

Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war
moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.

This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?

It IS very confusing. You are right, but it doesn`t actually contradict.
I had to read it, re-read it, and re-read it again.

Also if War Moves are resolved before Domain Actions, doesn`t that mean
when a regent making war moves in a Domain Round has his/her turn come up
for Domain Actions in the same Domain Round they must take the Move Troops
action with one of their available actions?

No. You don`t. To move troops for a war move to attack on provinces
other than your own you have to take a "Declare War" action, If you have
used a "Move Troops" action and someone attacks you, and you wish to
respond (usually the case) you have the option of reversing some or all
of your "Move Troops" action.

The war card rules are workable, but quite clumsily written. The
die-hard war-gamers out there will advise using some other system. Of
course, that may well be more complicated but still more easily
understood. (another seeming contradiction)

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[Shade]

> In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain
> rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved
> and 3) War Moves & Battles.
>
> Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war
> moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.
>
> This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?
>
>It IS very confusing. You are right, but it doesn`t actually contradict.
>I had to read it, re-read it, and re-read it again.

Please explain...

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[zshahroody]

I wrote

"In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain
rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved
and 3) War Moves & Battles.

Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war
moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.

This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?"

Peter replied

"It IS very confusing. You are right, but it doesn`t actually contradict.
I had to read it, re-read it, and re-read it again."

Apologies if I am being dense, but how does it not conflict? Maybe a better question is, can someone walk me through an example of how it is supposed to work?

[zshahroody]

anyone?

[zshahroody]

" On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 13:14, zshahroody wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1557

zshahroody wrote:

In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain
rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved
and 3) War Moves & Battles.

Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war
moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.

This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?

Peter replied

It IS very confusing. You are right, but it doesn`t actually contradict.
I had to read it, re-read it, and re-read it again.

zshahroody wrote
Also if War Moves are resolved before Domain Actions, doesn`t that mean
when a regent making war moves in a Domain Round has his/her turn come up
for Domain Actions in the same Domain Round they must take the Move Troops
action with one of their available actions?

Peter replied

No. You don`t. To move troops for a war move to attack on provinces
other than your own you have to take a "Declare War" action, If you have
used a "Move Troops" action and someone attacks you, and you wish to
respond (usually the case) you have the option of reversing some or all
of your "Move Troops" action.

The war card rules are workable, but quite clumsily written. The
die-hard war-gamers out there will advise using some other system. Of
course, that may well be more complicated but still more easily
understood. (another seeming contradiction)"




zshahroody replied to Peter's comments above

Declare Ware action? Could not find this listed among the domain actions. Closest was Decree but that did not seem to imply any material effect on War Moves.

I don't care much for the War Card method itself, however, I am trying to understand the strategic military movement b/c that can be used w/ any mass combat resolution system. Any help/clarification is appreciated.

[doom]

On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 05:14:29AM +0200, zshahroody wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1557
>
> zshahroody wrote:
>
> In Table 5-12 on page 98, the sequence of play (SOP) for resolving domain rounds is as follows: 1) Events & News 2) Domain Actions are Resolved and 3) War Moves & Battles.
>
> Pg 122 Strategic Warfare at the end of the first paragraph says that war moves are resolved before any domain actions for the month are resolved.
>
> This seems to contradict. Do I have this right?

They contradict. The playtest text should indicate that War moves are
resoved after domain actions are resolved. Added to the errata list.
Thanks.

- Doom

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[Kalien]

They contradict. The playtest text should indicate that War moves are resoved after domain actions are resolved. Added to the errata list. Thanks.

Are you sure this should be the order of precedence, Doom?

I may be a bit dense on this as no one really offered any explanation in the posts above, but it seems at first glance to me that perhaps War Moves should be resolved before domain actions. A regent who is attacked is allowed to respond and defend their lands, but if their domain action has already been dealt with they don't get a second one to then deal with the invasion. But if War Moves are dealt with first, then the defending regent can respond with War Moves instead of with their planned domain action.

Sorry if this idea contradicts something else in the Rulebook but I don't have it with me to check at the moment. (So am probably forgeting something blindingly obvious).

[zshahroody]

Kalien raises a good point. If the regent initiating hostilities takes the Domain Action "Move Troops" and the target does not take that domain action, when the War Moves phase comes around the target does not get to make responsive War Moves? Doesn't seem right.

At the same time, if War Moves are handled prior to Domain Actions, units will move and the target will respond before domain actions are declared. This would in effect require both regents then to take the domain action Move Troops. A little bit clunky but workable.

Thoughts?

[DanMcSorley]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kalien wrote:
> I may be a bit dense on this as no one really offered any explanation in
> the posts above, but it seems at first glance to me that perhaps War
> Moves should be resolved before domain actions. A regent who is
> attacked is allowed to respond and defend their lands, but if their
> domain action has already been dealt with they don`t get a second one
> to then deal with the invasion. But if War Moves are dealt with first,
> then the defending regent can respond with War Moves instead of
> with their planned domain action.

You already get war moves in response to an invasion. You can`t
counter-invade, but that`s fine, because a month later you can respond,
and if someone invades, there should be a little period of time before you
can get your shit together and counter-attack.
--
Daniel McSorley

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[doom]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 11:37:47PM +0200, Kalien wrote:
>
They contradict. The playtest text should indicate that War moves are resoved after domain actions are resolved. Added to the errata list. Thanks.
>
> Are you sure this should be the order of precedence, Doom?

Nope. Not at all. Thats how the inconsistency got in the playtest document.
IMC I often run warmoves first (depending on what kind of session I want to plan
for the night) but it is very ad hoc.

There was a fairly strong arguement for resolving warmoves before domain actions
in order to "guarantee" that the regent was personally available for a domain action
or "on the field" with their army, but the resulting system had just as many
(but different) problems. In the end, we recognized that the basic system
doesn`t work perfectly, but that we couldn`t think of a simple fix for it.

________
/. Doom@cs.wright.edu

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[Kalien]

There was a fairly strong arguement for resolving warmoves before domain actions in order to "guarantee" that the regent was personally available for a domain action or "on the field" with their army, but the resulting system had just as many (but different) problems. In the end, we recognized that the basic system doesn`t work perfectly, but that we couldn`t think of a simple fix for it.

Fair enough :)

Dan did tell us how things get resolved (I knew I'd forgotten something). And there's nothing stopping the regent accompanying units when making their War Moves, provided the player hadn't specifically placed their regent in a locality where it wasn't feasible to move with their troops.

[zshahroody]

Is there something in the rules that says the targeted regent gets to make reactive war moves within his/her territory? Or was that something that was being clarified in this thread? If it is in the rules can someone point out where? Thanks.

From the statement above, the target regent would get his war movesduring his next initiative after getting invaded correct? For example. Regent A w/ initiative of 10 invades regent B who has an initiative of 13 during the first war move. Regent B would not get to make his war moves until his intiative of 2nd war moves, correct?

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, zshahroody wrote:
> Is there something in the rules that says the targeted regent gets to
> make reactive war moves within his/her territory? Or was that something
> that was being clarified in this thread? If it is in the rules can
> someone point out where? Thanks.

p 64 of the original rulebook. If this isn`t clear in the 3e draft, it
needs to be revised.

When one regent declares war, he gets a month`s worth of war moves (4
moves).

The `agressor` is the side which has invaded territory. If both sides
have entered enemy territory, then the one with units in the most
provinces is the agressor. If they have the same number of provinces
occupied, the regent that declared war first is the agressor. The role of
agressor can change from week to week.

For each war move, the agressor moves some or all of his troops, then the
defender can move. You can move your troops up to their movement
points/war move, provided you have the GB or RP to pay for it. You don`t
have to move them all at once- see below.

If the agressor moves into a province with defending units in it, either
the defender units retreat, or there will be a battle. Once a unit
retreats, it can`t move any more that war move (except to retreat again,
if necessary).

After the defending side has moved, if the agressor has units with
movement left (say a fast unit like cavalry or scouts, which might not
have moved its full distance yet), he can move them, and then the defender
can go again. They continue until both sides are happy, or run out of
movement to do.

Special: If a defender unit has retreated, it can`t move again that move,
except to retreat again if an agressor unit enters its new province (to
the limit of its movement).
Likewise, if an agressor unit moves, it cannot retreat even if defender
units enter its province. If it has not moved yet when the defenders
confront it, it has the option of retreating.

After all moves are done, then you resolve battles for that week, then you
do it all again for the next War Move.

The defender doesn`t have to declare war to move troops within his own
territory, so he can always take war moves. If he wants to
counter-invade, he has to wait until he can declare war, which is where
the domain initiative and holding action system comes in.
--
Daniel McSorley

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[zshahroody]

Thanks Dan. It seems the whole issue of declaring war needs to be clarified b/c nothing in the 3e rules really point it out as significant in terms of its impact on war moves etc.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by zshahroody


Thanks Dan. It seems the whole issue of declaring war needs to be clarified b/c nothing in the 3e rules really point it out as significant in terms of its impact on war moves etc.


As Dan and Travis pointed out the war moves descriptions had a flaw in their order. Based on what is written in the Playtest document here is why it doesn’t specifically state that a defender gains 4 war moves.

Pg 105 – under Decree Actions Declare War is listed. This is a Court Action and on pg 101 Court Actions are described as similar to a free action in combat. A regent is limited to a number of court actions based on the level of his court, but can always use a standard action to accomplish a court action.

Pg 109 Move Troops (Court/Standard)
As a Court Action units can move in provinces held by their regent without use of this action. This action is required to move troops through a friendly province whose ruler has granted permission.
Standard Action – units moving through potentially hostile provinces require the use of a Standard Action.

Basically moving troops through your own provinces is a free action, not even a court action. This allows a regent to respond to an invading force regardless of the level of his court or having to use a standard action. Combat of units is basically the end result of a movement, that is when opposing forces are in the same location a battle ensues unless one or the other "retreats". Moving troops through or into a potentially hostile province requires the use of a standard action. So the aggressor uses a court action to declare war and a standard action to move troops (this is basically the standard action that is comprised of the 4 war moves – remember there are 4 war moves for every standard action). The defender gets to move troops to defend his territory as a free action, even less than a court action – so it is not dependant on his court level. So the net use of available domain actions is consistent with what was don in the 2nd ed rules only the phrasing is different in order to more closely match that used in 3rd ed. In order to "respond" with a counter invasion the original defender must "declare war" and use a standard action to move troops into a hostile province, hence the situations would be reversed.


Now when I said "free" action that doesn't mean it doesn't cost anything, the GB cost is thesame regardless of the reason for moving troops the action just doesn't count against the regent's total number of available actions in a turn.

Also note that in the playtest document there is no "set" time that court or "free" actions must occur they can basically occur at anytime as long as the domain initiative order is followed.

:)

[zshahroody]

cool! thanks.