My ECL playtest results

[Azrai]

So far I was neutral towards the ECL modifications of blooded scions. Now I started several new Birthright campaigns, experienced the character creation system and
felt the resonance of the players.

Furthermore I discussed with people which also use the ECL system. Here is my personal
result:

The ECL modification does not seem to work for "normal" adventuring campaigns. However, it seems to make sense when getting involved with regency points.

- the ECL for scions is in absolutely no relation to the ECL of races
- the ECL modifier is unfair: player choosing a better bloodline may have bad luck and
have a low bloodline score or bad blood abilities
- the differences of the bloodline abilities of a minor bloodline are not weak enough compared the the major abilites. Characters with the minor ability can have nearly as good abilities as a character with a major ability.

The result is that players with e.g. a major bloodline are very frustrated, since they have to live with the ECL.

For groups not using the Regency rules (or don't use them that often), the ECL system
does not work.

[geeman]

At 06:31 PM 4/11/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>For groups not using the Regency rules (or don`t use them that often),
>the ECL system
>does not work.

If I might engage in a little shameless self-promotion, have you tried the
ECL stuff in the Blood Ability Points System? I think it may address some
of your complaints since there is an effort to balance the ECL modifiers
with the adventure level effects. On the other hand, the tenth values for
ECL may not work out well in the long run--though I haven`t really heard
any complaints so far, and the ECL modifiers don`t really reflect the
ability of the regent to control a large realm. (I think the ECL for a
realm should be computed separately, but that`s really another issue.)

Gary

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[irdeggman]

Azrai has several valid points:
The ECL system is weakest when using a random method of determining blood abilities.
The ECL was based on 3 factors (I've consistenetly stated this) - Blood abilities, bonus hit points and starting equipment (i.e., magic items). The latter is really only useful at low levels and the variant in Chapter 8 needs to be adopted to really use it. If a group is not using any of the regency options, it indeed won't work very well - since none of them by themselves, except some major and great blood abiities, would justify an ECL in and of itself.

Something we "missed" when putting together the system was that the DMG doesn't allow starting with ECLs alone. pg 22 "Only let a player create one of these powerful characters when you would otherwise allow that player to create a higher-level standard character of equivalanet pwer. Thus, if you would normally allow a player to create a 5th-level character, you can also allow a player to create an ogre (with no class levels)."

When Savage Species (3.5 forward compatable) came out it outlined a method for using monster levels to allow a character to play an ECL'd race at first level. While I absolutely hate having to resort to using a scion class, I can't see any other way to incorporate this into the 3rd ed mechanics. I worked up a 5 level scion class that gives hit points, BAB, saving throws, skillpoints, etc. like any other class would it also inserts the various things that comprise the templates at different levels and allows the scion class to be an additional favored class for scions. The scion class levels are not required, but a scion would need to take them in order to gain additional benefits (e.g., access to major abilities). Since the "minor" template had no ECL, a scion could take it without any additional scion class levels and only have access to minor abilities. I'll post it once I figure out how to best get it out for discussion. :)

[oximoron]

How does this mesh with the backround of the birthright campeign, If charecters have to earn those abilities fair and square and with them being balanced out as class levels and history saying they had advantages over others when they could just as well have leveled up in other classes, true it gives mystical advantages over others but then you could just as well level up as a divine or arcane spellcaster. Seems to me that your trying to make an omelette(d20 birthright) without the breaking a few eggs. You could simply keep the AD&D rules on it or create your own that may or may not break a few rules

[geeman]

At 02:10 PM 4/13/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Some of the powers really are only advantages for rulers (Battlewise)
>while others are clear advantages for adventurers. The ECL should only
>balance the advantages of adventure level play, not realm level play.

Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
the most egregious in this regard? That is, which blood abilities tend to
be mostly "domain level abilities" with little or no adventure level effect?

Gary

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[kgauck]

It seems to me that the problem with ECL effects on scions really revolves
around the fact that a set of powers granted by heaven to rulers actually
creates adventure benefits. Some of the powers really are only advantages
for rulers (Battlewise) while others are clear advantages for adventurers.
The ECL should only balance the advantages of adventure level play, not
realm level play.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Mark_Aurel]

It seems to me that the problem with ECL effects on scions really revolves
around the fact that a set of powers granted by heaven to rulers actually
creates adventure benefits. Some of the powers really are only advantages
for rulers (Battlewise) while others are clear advantages for adventurers.
The ECL should only balance the advantages of adventure level play, not
realm level play.


Well, yes and no - the main purpose of ECL is to gauge the effective overall character effectiveness in a variety of situations. A character with battlewise is clearly better than one without, unless the character without is given something to compensate. However, the battlewise ability on its own is fairly weak, and it'd take a lot of stuff like that to add up to a "full ECL." It's the old "not all bonuses are created equal" thing in a nutshell - how large a bonus to the Jump skill would it take to add up to an ECL? +20? +40? +60?


How does this mesh with the backround of the birthright campeign, If charecters have to earn those abilities fair and square and with them being balanced out as class levels and history saying they had advantages over others when they could just as well have leveled up in other classes, true it gives mystical advantages over others but then you could just as well level up as a divine or arcane spellcaster. Seems to me that your trying to make an omelette(d20 birthright) without the breaking a few eggs. You could simply keep the AD&D rules on it or create your own that may or may not break a few rules

Well, the point here is to stay true to the spirit of the original, while balancing it with the mechanics of the 3e rules, and staying true to 3e rules, not 2e rules. The point is to come up with a variant that will account for the most variables possible.


- the ECL for scions is in absolutely no relation to the ECL of races
- the ECL modifier is unfair: player choosing a better bloodline may have bad luck and
have a low bloodline score or bad blood abilities
- the differences of the bloodline abilities of a minor bloodline are not weak enough compared the the major abilites. Characters with the minor ability can have nearly as good abilities as a character with a major ability.

The result is that players with e.g. a major bloodline are very frustrated, since they have to live with the ECL.

Yeah, the system as it stands right now is definitely not well balanced on some points; some standardization and retooling it as a scion class ought to fix a couple of balance issues with the ECLs being too harsh a penalty. Note that you're normally supposed to pick your own blood abilities; the random tables are provided for those that don't quite want to abandon the old ways. ;)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:01 PM


> Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
> the most egregious in this regard?

Isn`t this deficency telling? Some have use in both domain and adventure
areas, but should blood abilities be mostly inheritors of the adventure
focus, or should the domain aspect be expanded to reflect BR as a domain
system?

BTW, I don`t think ECL should reflect domain advantages. Being prince of
Avanil shouldn`t produce an experience penalty as compared to the count of
Ilien or Hugo the snake, petty fence in the local burg.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[AnakinMiller]

Ok I finally sat down and started reading over some of the other templates
from WotC. Has anyone else noticed that the Half-Celestial template in the
back of the MM is only +1 ECL. Look at all of the abilities and powers
granted. Hell look at most of those templates. For a mere +1 ECL you get
ALOT of bonus`s and goodies.

The Great Template does not hold up. You gain a +3 ECL and do not gain near
as many benefits. Was there any reason for this? What was the major
points that the development team decided upon a +3 ECL for the Great
bloodline template?

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[geeman]

At 02:18 AM 4/14/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>> >Some of the powers really are only advantages for rulers (Battlewise)
>> >while others are clear advantages for adventurers. The ECL should only
>> >balance the advantages of adventure level play, not realm level play.
>
> > Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
> > the most egregious in this regard?
>
>Isn`t this deficency telling?

I asked because other than Battlewise I couldn`t think of any blood
abilities that really have a domain level effect. I just skimmed through
the RB and Courage does also have an effect on units accompanying the scion
in addition to its adventure level effects. Those are the only two I recall.

>Some have use in both domain and adventure areas, but should blood
>abilities be mostly inheritors of the adventure focus, or should the
>domain aspect be expanded to reflect BR as a domain system?

I think certain blood abilities _should_ have both adventure level and
domain level effects (maybe they all should for the sake of balance and
thoroughness--though what the domain level effects of Direction Sense might
be escapes me at the moment...) but by and large the adventure level
effects seem to be the standard. Since ECL really accounts only for
adventure level effects I don`t think there`d need to be much change in how
the blood abilities are described in order to account for domain level effects.

I would agree that ECLs for blood abilities should focus on actually
useable powers at the adventure level. In the cases in which they don`t
(Battlewise or Courage) I think there could be some modification to make
them more relevant at the adventure level. Battlewise might, for instance,
give bonuses to the adventure level use of some Command skill that allowed
a character to direct others and give them greater than typical bonuses on
attacks, AC, etc. Courage`s radius could be extended (as it is in the BP
system I wrote up) and could have greater effects at higher levels and
ECLs. That`s something I`ll have to think about....

>BTW, I don`t think ECL should reflect domain advantages. Being prince of
>Avanil shouldn`t produce an experience penalty as compared to the count of
>Ilien or Hugo the snake, petty fence in the local burg.

I don`t think it should have the same penalty, certainly, but I do think
there should be some sort of way of accounting for the adventure level
advantage of running a realm. I would compare having control of provinces
or holdings to having a high gp worth of items in one`s inventory per 3e`s
table on "normal" gp values for equipment by character level. Regents have
access to greater resources and can bypass or alleviate interactions with
NPCs or other things common to the adventure level in a way beyond that of
typical D&D adventurers. Depending on the nature of the realm a regent
might be able to call out the local constabulary, get access to mounts,
living quarters, equipment, healing, ships, messengers, the contents of the
treasury, etc. There should be, therefore, some accounting for the
relative ease with which they get through those aspects of adventure level
play--ECL is one possibility, but not the one I would necessarily go
by. One should bear it in mind as something that effects particular
encounters and, therefore, factor it into things like ELs and CR awards,
but it`s not the kind of thing that one needs to "earn" with XP.

To extend the inventory analogy, one method of accounting for inventory`s
effects on play previously suggested was to average the level of the PC
with the level of the inventory he carries. A 4th level character with an
inventory of items equivalent to a typical 6th level character would be 5th
level for the purpose of ELs and CR awards. Similarly, a domain might be
given a gp value and accounted in much the same way. For instance, a
regent`s domain might be valued at 10,000gp and that amount added to his
"inventory" for the purpose of designing adventures and granting XP from
those encounters. Exactly what the gp value of provinces and/or holdings
for this purpose might be I haven`t really figured out yet....

Let`s say, for instance, that Darian Avan dies and leaves his entire domain
to a 1st level character. As DM when designing encounters for such a
character it makes sense that the EL of the encounters could range higher
than a typical 1st level PC. A 10th level character invested with Avanil
might be less drastically influenced when designing
adventures. Conversely, a 1st level character with only a holding level or
two might not be any different from a typical D&D adventurer.

I guess the difference between assigning an ECL and modifying EL/CR based
on such things is something of a "half dozen of one, six of the other"
situation to some extent since effectively lowering the amount of XP
awarded is not much different from raising the amount required to level up,
but from the standpoint of the way the game works I think it might more
sense to handle things that way.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

All right, I think I figured out how to get the scion class (my proposal) to the link to view stage.

http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20...r%20Posting.doc (http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20For%20Posting.doc)

Something to look at concerning ECLs, one the great scion is only a +2 ECL, comparable to the drow. Per savage species they have a listing of things that constitute level adjustments (in brief and only some):

Monster hit dice (each one counts as a level). These are 1d8 so if using the bonus hitpoints for ECL'd scions, for every 4.5 (I believe that is the average roll for 1d8) bonus hitpoints there should be a +1 level adjustment. This is the strictest interpretation.

Pgs 11-16 from Savage Species

Poison - +1 level adjustment unless it affects Con then it is a +2
Spell resistance - +1
Energy resistance - +1 and an additional +1 for every resistance greater than 20.
Skills and feats - 3 or more racial bonuses (skills) yields a +1, 2 or more bonus feats also yields a +1.
Unbalanced ability scores - +1
Damage reduction - +1 (or more)
Fear - +1
Fast Healing - +1, +1 for every 3 hit points healed
Regeneration - +2
Frightful presence - +1

If one analyzes the drow and how the +2 adjustment is arrived at it comes down to 2 things - unbalanced ability scores (+1 level) and spell resistance (+1 level). The ability to cast a few spell like abilities is not considered to be worthy of a level adjustment. This is the reason that the minor scion template doesn't have an ECL adjustment - no bonus hit points and only a few minor spell-like abilities. The blood abilities that are available to those with the great scion template are much more likely to fall into the automatic level adjustment range.

If one looks closely at the level adjustment requirements in savage species (remember it is 3.5 forward compatable) the ECL adjustmens for scion templates are actually low and that is only accounting for the hitpoint bonus.

:)

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> I think certain blood abilities _should_ have both adventure level
> and domain level effects (maybe they all should for the sake of
> balance and thoroughness

I think they all should, because I almost never play at the adventure
level, and blood abilities are an important bit of BR flavor; I would
like them to play more of a role in my domain-only games.

> though what the domain level effects of Direction Sense might
> be escapes me at the moment...

Here are a few ideas off the top of my head:

Cheaper or faster movement for troops or ships led by the scion

Bonuses to seaworthiness checks for fleets led by the scion

Cheaper building of roads if a Character action taken to direct it

Small bonus to creating trade routes, especially long-distance ones

Ability to "go around" enemy troops with a small force, or prevent
additional units from getting past you

These are listed in order of increasing stretching of the concept IMO, but
all are moderately reasonable and based on the central idea of "the scion
doesn`t get lost": shortcuts are easier to find and use, and going the
wrong way at night or in bad weather isn`t as much of a problem.

> I think there could be some modification to make them more relevant at
> the adventure level. Battlewise might ... allow a character to direct
> others and give them greater than typical bonuses on attacks, AC, etc.

This is a fine idea. Bardic songs and the Bless spell are first-order
approximations to this plan; the various "combat mind" Force abilities
from Star Wars D20 may provide some inspiration as well.

> I would compare having control of provinces or holdings to having a
> high gp worth of items in one`s inventory per 3e`s table on "normal"
> gp values for equipment by character level. Regents have access to
> greater resources and can bypass or alleviate interactions with NPCs
> or other things common to the adventure level in a way beyond that of
> typical D&D adventurers.

This is true; however, I don`t think the full-blown ECL system is the way
to go here.

> bear it in mind as something that effects particular encounters and,
> therefore, factor it into things like ELs and CR awards, but it`s not
> the kind of thing that one needs to "earn" with XP.

Agreed.

> I guess the difference between assigning an ECL and modifying EL/CR
> based on such things is something of a "half dozen of one, six of the
> other" situation to some extent since effectively lowering the amount
> of XP awarded is not much different from raising the amount required
> to level up,

To some extent -- but note that changing XP awards rather than XP spending
gives you greater flexibility. In a system which modifies only CR, you
can give full XP if the regent escapes capture and singlehandedly kills
the baddie with something found in a closet during the escape, but zero if
the regent just stands back and watches a 20th-level lieutenant do the
job. In a system which modifies only XP needed to go up a level, you are
committed to calculating in advance what the average frequency of each
kind of event is going to be, and maintaining that proportion throughout
the character`s existence.

Also, I may be wrong in this, but the way I read the ECL rules is that the
choice is really "six of one, twelve of the other". ISTM that the ECL
thing is a double whammy, which both reduces XP awarded and raises the
amount of XP you need to spend: ECL which is added to your character level
both in getting and spending XP is twice as big a hit as just changing CRs.

In any case, I think the best interpretation of what XP represent is
precisely "how much have you learned from your experiences" -- which leads
me to conclude that for conceptual clarity, all (N)PCs with the same XP
total should have the same total class level, regardless of their species.


Ryan Caveney

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[Azrai]

Originally posted by ryancaveney
I think they all should, because I almost never play at the adventure
level, and blood abilities are an important bit of BR flavor; I would
like them to play more of a role in my domain-only games.


IMO the focus should clearly be on the adventuring side. Blood abilities play only a minor role in domain-only games. Birthright is a roleplaying game in first place,
not a board game. It is maybe impossible to balance the abilities so that they satisfy both adventure and domain games.

[destowe]

I'm at work, goofing off on a coffee break, so here are a few blood abilities that helps on domain level, that I can remember.

BloodMark- minor ability
Divine Aura- the major and great ability

They both give bonuses to CHA based skills. I have seen it used to to get the required DC to make get better results on both the Intrigue and Justice Random Action.

This also helps the success of successfully training units.

If the debate over ranks vs total bonus gets finalized that will make a huge bonus on the Lead skill for morale bonuses.

I see Ghoere taking them both. That +5 right there is enough for a +1 morale bonus.

[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Azrai wrote:

> Birthright is a roleplaying game in first place, not a board game.

And I think exactly the opposite, so nothing will ever satisfy us both.

> It is maybe impossible to balance the abilities so that they satisfy
> both adventure and domain games.

I am not particularly interested in "balance" -- I am interested in giving
each blood ability *some* effect on the domain scale. If that means I
have to change a couple of minors to greats and vice versa, I will.


Ryan Caveney

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[irdeggman]

Something we all have to recognize and basically agree to is that any rule set is designed to address the "norm" and not the extremes. Ryan runs a domain only (or at least mostly domain based) campaign while Azrai runs an adventure only (or mostly adventure based) campaign. These are 2 extremes. The rules prposed were designed to cover a campaign that has domain and adventure aspects, with roughly equal emphasis on both. If things are written to cover domain-based campaigns then the adventure -based ones will most definitely suffer and vice-versa. IMO the only way to get anything done is to focus on the middle ground and let DMs who run one of the extreme types of campaigns make their house rules to cover their type of campaign. If the middle of the road approach is taken this should "minimize" the changes that either extreme will have to make, but I don't see any way to satisfy all the people. Neither extreme is wrong, but what benefits one side penalizes the other.:)

[kgauck]

I would think that our goal would be a rules set that was just as satisfying
at the extreams (all realm, no realm). In fact, since there is so little
overlap or connection between the realm rules and the setting material, I
would imagine that the only way to produce a good product for the great
middle ground would be to do both well.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 11:09 PM 4/15/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Something we all have to recognize and basically agree to is that any rule
>set is designed to address the "norm" and not the extremes. Ryan runs a
>domain only (or at least mostly domain based) campaign while Azrai runs an
>adventure only (or mostly adventure based) campaign. These are 2 extremes.
>[Snip] Neither extreme is wrong, but what benefits one side penalizes the
>other.:)

These may be extremes, but I don`t think they are opposing
extremes. Campaign material could suit either. That would, of course,
require an awful lot of work, but in many ways I think the BR materials
were meant to be used by either of these two styles of play. Adding things
that will aid people who play at the domain level doesn`t diminish the
adventure level aspect of play nor vice versa.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

Actually, Ryan's proposal of "bumping" up the power level of blood abilities to incorporate domain level effects (i.e., making minors majors or greats) would have a drastic effect on Azrai's style of play but making powers of too great a power level for the average adventure-based character to "afford". Now, Ryan didn't really give any examples of this, just what he considered to be more important - the ability of blood abilities to affect domain play vice the relative level of the ability.

Gary's BP based system could easily be adapted to incoporate including domain level effects into the purchasing system - but I'm not that certain there is a big enough demand for this type of application (i.e., all blood abilities have domain level effects).

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> Actually, Ryan`s proposal of "bumping" up the power level of blood
> abilities to incorporate domain level effects (i.e., making minors
> majors or greats) would have a drastic effect on Azrai`s style of
> play but making powers of too great a power level for the average
> adventure-based character to "afford".

Maybe yes, and maybe no -- some might get too cheap! Or, if we were
really clever and careful, no change might be needed. More below.

> Now, Ryan didn`t really give any examples of this, just what he
> considered to be more important - the ability of blood abilities to
> affect domain play vice the relative level of the ability.

The trick is, as usual, that "balance" can only be achieved within some
context, not overall forever. Consider, for example, Heightened Ability.
To an adventurer, whether heightened Dex or heightened Cha is better
depends on class played, and the sort of monsters one meets. To a realm
ruler, however, heightened Cha is rather useful, and heightened Dex is
totally irrelevant. Then there`s Direction Sense vs. Travel -- I`ve made
some suggestions about how to use Direction Sense on the domain level,
since you can lead any number of people by your better route, and after
blazing the trail they could even follow it without you; with Travel,
however, you`re limited to just a handful of people you can bring with
you, so although it`s very powerful for an adventuring party, it is not
much help in ruling a realm.

In order to make the blood abilities be the same relative strength in a
regency campaign as an adventure campaign, you`d need to be very careful
in defining exactly what they could do in each case. For example, to make
Travel worthy of the Great level in a realm-only game, you`d have to make
it be something like the realm-spell version of Teleport, except use
bloodline score to fill in anywhere it wants to see caster or source
level, and maybe play with the RP costs. Some of the restrictions, like
"follow roads" for Brenna and "cross only ocean" for Masela are easy
enough to implement on the province map, but how would Vorynn`s and
Azrai`s time-of-day restrictions work? Or Basaia`s bonfire?

However, if all these details were worked out (which I am nowhere close
to doing completely), I think it is in principle possible to come up with
both realm-scale and adventure-scale definitions of the effects of each
blood ability which have the same relative power ranking on each scale.
If that were done, the minor/major/great classifications could be used
unchanged -- and I think to use them unchanged requires such an effort.
Then again, since I`d have to create domain effects for (nearly) every
blood ability from scratch anyway, that additional constraint doesn`t seem
to make the problem all that much harder. =)


Ryan Caveney

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[geeman]

At 08:52 PM 4/16/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Gary`s BP based system could easily be adapted to incoporate including
>domain level effects into the purchasing system - but I`m not that
>certain there is a big enough demand for this type of application (i.e.,
>all blood abilities have domain level effects).

I`m not sure there is a big demand for it either but I do like the idea, so
I`m going to dedicate a little time to this sort of thing in the next week
or two. I do, however, have at least two other things I want to work on
before that, so it may be a while....

Gary

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