5 level scion class

[irdeggman]

Here's the link to the 5 level scion class I worked up. Realize that I really hate using this but the 3rd ed mechanics don't allow an ECL'd character to start in a first level campaign. This was put together using the concepts set out in Savage Species which allow an ECL'd race to be played at 1st level. As with everything this is only an initial proposal, anythig can be changed. It also assumes that blood score is measured in a 0-100 scale instead of 3-18.

http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20...r%20Posting.doc (http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20For%20Posting.doc)


Here's a cut and pasted version (formatting will be terrible):

Scion Class
In order to utilize characters with an ECL the DM must do one of two things, either start all characters at the same level using the highest ECL as the basis or allow ECL scions to start as first level characters using the scion class progression.

scion class

Scion class levels are required for characters that take the major or great scion templates in order to gain the benefits of their templates. They are also required for those who have the true or great heritage templates. Any character with a bloodline can choose the “minor” template and gain only minor blood abilities but receives no additional benefits and cannot take any scion class levels. A character with a scion template that requires scion class levels can take the levels at any time.

Hit Die: d8

Requirements: To qualify for levels in a scion class a character must be blooded and have the major, great or true scion template.

Class skills: The class skills of a scion (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Lead (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) and any additional 5 non class-exclusive skills.
Skill points each level: 2 + Int-Modifier

Class features:
The following are class features of the scion.
Armor and weapon proficiency: A scion is proficient with all simple weapons. He is also proficient in a single weapon from the Table 1-1 list (either common or elite) for his region. He is proficient with light and medium armors and with shields.

Bloodform/Bloodtrait: A scion with true scion template gains the bloodform (Azrai derivation only) or bloodtrait (any derivation except Azrai) blood ability at the major level as a bonus blood ability that doesn’t count towards his maximum number of major abilities.

Bloodline Score Increase: The scion gains a +8 to his bloodline score. At 3rd, 4th and 5th level the scion gains an additional +8.

Great Abilities: The scion is eligible to acquire great blood abilities. If the scion has not taken the great scion template he is only allowed to have major or minor blood abilities.

Leadership: A 3rd level the scion gains a +2 bonus to his Leadership feat score. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and +6 at 5th level. This only applies if the scion also has the great heritage template.

Major Abilities: The scion is eligible to acquire major blood abilities. If the scion has not taken the major (or higher) scion template he is only allowed to have minor blood abilities.

Scion Regent Benefits: The scion gains bonus hit points equal to half the amount of regency he collects in a season up to one half of his blood line score. The scion is eligible for any benefits provided to regents specified in game variants used, e.g., heirlooms and special equipment, etc.

Note: The scion class counts as an additional favored class for any blooded character.


Level Attack Fort Ref Will Special Notes
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Bloodline Score Increase (+8), Scion Regent benefits

2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Major Abilities Maximum scion class level for a major scion.

3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Great Abilities, Bloodline Score Increase (+16), Leadership +2 Maximum scion class level for a great scion or a major scion with great heritage.

4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bloodline Score Increase (+24), Leadership +4, Bloodform/Bloodtrait Maximum scion class level for a true scion or a great scion with great heritage.

5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bloodline Score Increase (+32), Leadership +6 Maximum scion class level for a true scion with great heritage.

[ecliptic]

Uh you kinda need to type out the templates to really make sense of the class.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ecliptic




Uh you kinda need to type out the templates to really make sense of the class.

This was supposed to refer back to the Playtest document (hence the Table 1-1 reference). I should have been more clear.

Here they are reproduced:

Blooded scion template

"Blooded Scion" is a template that can be added to any aberration, animal, beast, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or shapechanger. The creature uses its normal statistics, unless noted otherwise below. This template has three variations, corresponding to the three possible bloodline strengths of the scion: Minor, Major, or Great.

Hit points: A scion may gain bonus hit points due to their bloodline.
Minor: Hit points for minor scions are unchanged.

Major/Great/True: Major and great scion regents may gain bonus hit points. Such regents gain bonus hit points equal to one-half of the total regency that they collect each season up to a maximum equal to their bloodline ability score. Thus, this bonus increases and decreases according to the success of their reign.

Special Attacks/Qualities: Scions retain all of the special attacks/qualities of the base creature. In addition, the scion gains the abilities listed below.

Blood abilities: A scion's divine bloodline may manifest in one or more blood abilities. The number of blood abilities is based upon the scion's bloodline score. Minor scions may only manifest minor bloodline abilities; if a minor scion's bloodline score qualifies them for major or great bloodline abilities, then these abilities should be considered minor abilities, instead. Major scions may manifest minor or major bloodline abilities; if a major scion's bloodline score qualifies them for great bloodline abilities, then these abilities should be considered major abilities instead. Scions of great or true bloodlines manifest minor, major, and great bloodline abilities as determined by their bloodline ability score.

Saving throws made against a scion’s blood abilities have a DC of 12, 15, or 18 (for minor, major, and great bloodlines respectively) + scion's bloodline score modifier, unless noted otherwise.

Regency: A regent scion collects regency from the domain under their control and can use this regency to affect large scale events in which they take part. The maximum amount of regency collected or stored is based upon the scion's bloodline ability score.

Abilities: The base creature immediately gains a bloodline ability score. This ability score is generated normally during character creation. This initial bloodline ability score is increased according to strength of the template applied: +0 (Minor), +4 (Major), +8 (Great), or +12 (True). If this template is gained after character generation, the initial bloodline score is determined as detailed in the section on usurpation, later in this chapter.

Level Adjustment: The scion receives a level adjustment depending on the template strength: +0 ECL (Minor), +1 ECL (Major), +2 ECL (Great), or +3 ECL (True).

Great heritage template
The Great Heritage template represents a trait generally possessed only by the most noble and powerful scion families. The creature uses its normal statistics, except as noted here.

Abilities: The base creature's initial bloodline ability score is increased by +8. This modifier is in addition to any bloodline score modifier applied by other templates. The scion also gains +4 to his Leadership feat score. This template cannot be chosen by the player after character generation, but may be awarded by the DM for acts of epic heroism.

Level Adjustment: +1 ECL. This modifier is in addition to any ECL modifier applied by the scion template.

:)

[darknightlost]

You have a good idea here!
The only thing is, with applying the original class, the template and the new prestige class. The template is probably not needed. besides that, one class to apply to all three templates will be too broad for the players to see it as truly worth the levels.

What about a 10 level prestige class and every couple of levels, you have to have a bloodline high enough to acheive it. This way the template is eliminated, it will add to any CR, and you could fine tune the class to balance with other classes and still get the advantages of being a scion with out overpowering a single member of the party.

The players can get their extra feats for the blood abilitys and some other perks like possibly a better HD or BAB. On the other hand, it may also lower the HD and BAB to a fighter or barbarian. As well, not all blooded people need to be scions. Lets face it, Divine Right or not, to rule a realm you need training!

Multi-Class defintly sounds like the way to go to me!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by darknightlost

You have a good idea here!
The only thing is, with applying the original class, the template and the new prestige class. The template is probably not needed. besides that, one class to apply to all three templates will be too broad for the players to see it as truly worth the levels.

What about a 10 level prestige class and every couple of levels, you have to have a bloodline high enough to acheive it. This way the template is eliminated, it will add to any CR, and you could fine tune the class to balance with other classes and still get the advantages of being a scion with out overpowering a single member of the party.

The players can get their extra feats for the blood abilitys and some other perks like possibly a better HD or BAB. On the other hand, it may also lower the HD and BAB to a fighter or barbarian. As well, not all blooded people need to be scions. Lets face it, Divine Right or not, to rule a realm you need training!

Multi-Class defintly sounds like the way to go to me!

The reason 5-levels was the number selected was to parallel the example of Savage Species using monster levels for ECL'd races in order to allow their play in first level campaigns. For example the centaur is a +5 ECL race. There are 6 levels of centaur class required before a character could take an additional class. This class progression of centaur allows for a centaur character at 1st level instead of requiring that the starting character level be 6th.

Since the playtest proposal (and no one has suggested using higher, only lower ECLs) has a maximum of +4 ECL for scions (True - +3 ECL, and great heritage - +1 ECL) then only a 5-level class is needed. To add more just seems overkill and causes characters to lose focus on their "primary" classes instead of only taking the necessary amount of scion class levels to account for the ECL.:)

[darknightlost]

I can see your point.
The only exception I have is that a PC who choses to focus on the scion class can become stronger than most other char of the same level. (At least that's what it looks like to me, I honestly have not tested your class to be certain and by no means claim to be a proffesional at game building)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by darknightlost

I can see your point.
The only exception I have is that a PC who choses to focus on the scion class can become stronger than most other char of the same level. (At least that's what it looks like to me, I honestly have not tested your class to be certain and by no means claim to be a proffesional at game building)

Please clarify your point as it is not obvious to me the example you are trying to make.

I tried to incorporate the things that were put into the templates in the playtest version so that by taking the appropriate number of levels of the scion class the character would end up at roughly the same endpoint. BAB, saving throws and skill points needed to be added in order to make it a class (again as per the savage species format). The cleric was used as the base for multiple reasons, one it is the normal base for classes, etc. and two the blood is divine in nature, coming from the blood of the fallen gods.

Some things are a little more powerful than the templates, like the plusses to leadership score. I had a hard time coming up with a progression that could work for this one so the end result would yield a higher bonus to leadership score, but it seems balanced and workable enough for me. At least as a start for discussion.

The reason gaining a blood score bonus at certain levels, as someone commented on not liking, was again to reflect the template bonuses. These were originally added to the templates to give the players a feel that they were gaining something more concrete for their ECL. The numbers are also set up that they will yield a major (or great) ability if the scion hasn't started with an exceptionally low blood score (below around 16 on a 0-100 scale, 8 on a 3-18 scale). To get an idea of how this would pan out, use the table from the playtest document for bloodline score; Table 2-2 on pg 36, but double the values (i.e., go back to a 0-100 scale) and lower the onset of abilities to 20 vice 24 (which is where the original proposed table would have fallen). I'm revising the table and will include it in the proposal on bloodscore options that Shade, Mark V, Geeman and I are putting together. See the thread on the chapter 2 poll results to understand where this is going.

The number of class skills might be too high overall, 5 + an additional 5. The base 5 seemed to be around the right focus for someone who was born (or acquired) the power to be able to lead/rule better than the average commoner (an effect of having a bloodline). Again, if the character doesn't put skill points into these areas then he wouldn't be as effective a leader as one who had, but by making them class skills he has the advantage over one who would have to take them as cross-class skills.

[darknightlost]

Before I go to far in to this, I must clarify my comment of needing a bloodline strong enough to acheive a level. (It was not thinking clearly atm) What I should have said was that every few levels you would gain a blood power and you would need a bloodline strong enough in points and/or derivation to gain the power desired, otherwise you would have to select a power of a lesser strength.(i.e. taking a minor power instead of a major power.) In this way you could have a Lv. 10 scion with a minor blood line and a good number of powers. This way players don't feel that they have been restricted in their class levels because they don't have the derivation strong enough to advance further. As for not focusing on their primary class, why would the ability to controll these powers come intuitvly? Wizards must study, Priests must pray, but scions can just weild their powers with total controll the moment they know them, and they get them all as soon as they have access to the next power level.

Going from a minor scion(Lv.1 on your class) to a major scion(Lv.2) means you have access to all of your major powers immediatly and at will. The only restrictions on the power are in the powers themselves. This is an extremly fast progression as far as classes go. If you happen to concentrate on another class for a short time, and in that time you manage to increase your blood signifigantly, then you could gain 3 or 4 powers for a single level. Where most other classes that give that many powers at a single level have some kind of negative to balance the power gain and keep it even with most other classes, Your 5 level class seems to be all bonuses and no balancers. A 10 level class or spliting the class in to two or three 5 level classes for each derivation level (minor and major, greater and true, as two seperate classes) could slow down the progression and require little or no balancers to compensate.

I beleve that savage species was intending that one class would be one template, not three templates in one class. Doing so would sugest that you could combine, for example, the gnoll and the flind in to a single class and progress from one race to another.

([_]

[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 15:10, darknightlost wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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darknightlost wrote:
I can see your point.
The only exception I have is that a PC who choses to focus on the scion
class can become stronger than most other char of the same level. (At
least that`s what it looks like to me, I honestly have not tested your
class to be certain and by no means claim to be a proffesional at game
building)

Such a result may not be such a bad thing, or rather as long as the
experience points are equal, you should expect Scions to be at least as
powerful as any other class - especially magic-using classes.

It is not unreasonable to expect that regents (or more importantly,
regents-to-be), to spend their character levels on honing their
bloodline abilities and regent skills -- rather than studying magic (as
Wizard), or battle (as Warrior etc), or even spying or commerce. A
regent is not expected to be any of these things - he/she can employ
others to do them.

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[darknightlost]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke
> It is not unreasonable to expect that regents (or more importantly,
regents-to-be), to spend their character levels on honing their
bloodline abilities and regent skills -- rather than studying magic (as
Wizard), or battle (as Warrior etc), or even spying or commerce. A
regent is not expected to be any of these things - he/she can employ
others to do them.
>


I don't dispute that at all! In fact that is paramount to my point.
A scion should spend their time honing blood abilitys, but the 5 level class almost eliminates that need. Two or three levels (to the max available for the strength of the bloodline) and the scion has no more need to study or focus on developing the blood abilitys. Most players will go through that in no time and begin focusing on the magic and battle that their hirelings are suposed to be doing.

Aside from that, if the scion gains enough blood points to gain another blood ability, it's given to him immediatly with no study, no meditation, no vision-quest, nothing that would justify gaining an ability aside from killing some one and getting XP for it or spending RP and an action (obviosly the RP part is simplifyed, I know how hard it can be).

At least if you require some level advancement then the benifit of a new ability is justifyed. When was the last time you let a wizard learn a new spell with out a check to learn it, or a player to know all the nifty powers of a new magic item with out getting an identify spell cast on it?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by darknightlost

Going from a minor scion(Lv.1 on your class) to a major scion(Lv.2) means you have access to all of your major powers immediatly and at will. The only restrictions on the power are in the powers themselves. This is an extremly fast progression as far as classes go. If you happen to concentrate on another class for a short time, and in that time you manage to increase your blood signifigantly, then you could gain 3 or 4 powers for a single level. Where most other classes that give that many powers at a single level have some kind of negative to balance the power gain and keep it even with most other classes, Your 5 level class seems to be all bonuses and no balancers. A 10 level class or spliting the class in to two or three 5 level classes for each derivation level (minor and major, greater and true, as two seperate classes) could slow down the progression and require little or no balancers to compensate.

I beleve that savage species was intending that one class would be one template, not three templates in one class. Doing so would sugest that you could combine, for example, the gnoll and the flind in to a single class and progress from one race to another.

([_]

A minor scion is actually no levels of scion class. A major scion requires 2 levels to reach full benefits and a great requires 3.

If you consider the scion templates as degrees of the same template and not necessarily separate templates it makes sense. Yes, the Savage Species formats also state that " A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class." But since there is really no "type" involved in the scion class, only a leveling of ECLs, it also makes sense.

The question is does it pass the acid test. "Would you rather play a monster character at that ECL, or a standard character of that level?" That would be is a 1st level scion class character much more or less desirable than a non-scion character. If they are about even then the balance is about right. A 1st level scion would get bonus hit points, a higher blood line score (hence more blood abilities, usually at least one) and if the variant is used more starting equipment (i.e., the possibility of having a magic item at 1st level). Does this make it worth the level? If a character takes another scion level (2 so far) he would gain major blood abilities instead of only minor ones in addition to the benefits from the 1st level. Is that worth the 2 levels? If the answer is that about as often a player would choose the scion class as he would the non-scion class then the answer is that again they are about balanced.:)