Feat/Skill based scion

[ecliptic]

Feat:
Minor Bloodline
Benefit: Allows the character to obtain a minor bloodline skill (11 and under).
Special: Must be taken at first level.

Major Bloodline
Prerequisites: Minor Bloodline feat
Benefit: Allows the character to obtain a major bloodline skill (19 and under).

Great Bloodline
Prerequisites: Major Bloodline feat
Benefit: Allows the character to obtain a great bloodline skill (20 and over).

Skill:
Bloodline (Cha)

7 Gains Minor Blood Ability
11 Gains Minor Blood Ability
13 Gains Minor Blood ABility
15 Gains Major Blood Ability
19 Gains Major Blood Ability
22 Gains Great Blood Ability
24 Gains Great Blood Ability

[irdeggman]

I assume that bloodline skill is an exclusive skill of some kind. I really don't know it can be written up to require a feat as a prerequisite, since I have never seen that format used in d20 products, only the other way.

A character won't be able to gain a blood ability until at least 3rd level (4 ranks at first level +1 rank at each additional level for class skills). Somehow this doesn't seem quite in line with the setting.

[ecliptic]

It is by far the most simple way and it seems to be able to be the most balanced aswell as keeping with the setting.

They can still have a bloodline at 1st level, so Wizard can technically exist at first level. Yes they can have a blood ability at first. Since the skill uses Charisma modifier.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it this is the supreme way. It gets rid of the random stuff that causes players to argue aswell. :)

[irdeggman]

So this is not ranks but total modifier then? Do you mean to allow Skill Focus to apply also?

[ecliptic]

Bloodsteal: To determine if you have stolen the scion's bloodline. Do an opposed roll against the enemy scion's Bloodline skill. If you match it or beat his roll, you obtain bloodline skill ranks. The number you beat him by is the number of ranks added to your Bloodline skill.

:D


So this is not ranks but total modifier then? Do you mean to allow Skill Focus to apply also?

Sure, there could also be other feats that add additional bonuses onto the bloodline skill.

I know the chart needs a little adjusting to fully balance it but I think it's the right idea.

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> I assume that bloodline skill is an exclusive skill of some kind.
> I really don`t know it can be written up to require a feat as a
> prerequisite, since I have never seen that format used in d20
> products, only the other way.

Did you perhaps mean to say this the other way around? There are lots of
skills which have feats as prerequisites (Star Wars D20`s Force system
comes to mind), but AFAIK no feats which have skills as prerequisites --
unless you count BAB as a skill, which I am generally inclined to do.


Ryan Caveney

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ryancaveney





On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> I assume that bloodline skill is an exclusive skill of some kind.
> I really don`t know it can be written up to require a feat as a
> prerequisite, since I have never seen that format used in d20
> products, only the other way.

Did you perhaps mean to say this the other way around? There are lots of
skills which have feats as prerequisites (Star Wars D20`s Force system
comes to mind), but AFAIK no feats which have skills as prerequisites --
unless you count BAB as a skill, which I am generally inclined to do.


Ryan Caveney


Actually in D&D I haven't found any skills that have feats as prerequisites. Mounted Combat feat has ride skill as a prerequisite.

The Star Wars skills requiring feats are basically skills as a subset of a type of force focus (Control, Alter, Sense, General). But that is not a good comparison to use for a D&D setting. Too many things are different in Star Wars to make a very good comparison. Vitality and Wounds versus hit points armor using DR against wound damage (Star Wars) versus adding to the armor class (D&D), etc. But even then in Star Wars the force based skills are the only ones that require the feats as prerequisites. In Star Wars feats that have skills as prerequsites: Frightful Presence, Starship Dodge, Starship Operation, Zero-G Training, Force Flight, and Force Whirlwind. :)

[ecliptic]

Actually in D&D I haven't found any skills that have feats as prerequisites.

So?

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> In Star Wars feats that have skills as prerequsites: Frightful
> Presence, Starship Dodge, Starship Operation, Zero-G Training,
> Force Flight, and Force Whirlwind. :)

I sit corrected! =)

That said, even if it does appear to be a change, I don`t see any
problem in general with having a feat as a prerequisite for a skill.


Ryan Caveney

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[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Originally posted by irdeggman
I assume that bloodline skill is an exclusive skill of some kind. I really don't know it can be written up to require a feat as a prerequisite, since I have never seen that format used in d20 products, only the other way.



In Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous, there is a skill that requires a feat to gain ranks in the skill.

The skill and Feat are both called Famous. I'm not sure how it works but it seems okay, in theory. I don't like the idea of other peoples knowledge of your character being a skill, but I'll use it as an example.

I think the way to write it up is to have Famous be an exclusive skill, except no class has it listed as a class skill. I've seen feats that turn non-class skills (cross-class or maybe even exclusive) into class skills. So, for example, the famous feat would be.

Famous (General)

Benefit: Famous is a class skill for you.
Normal: The Famous skill is an exclusive skill not available to your class.


If you were to try to have the bloodline score be a skill, or skill-like, you should probably have the skill limit be based on something besides character level. You probably shouldn't use skill points to determine bloodline score, either, but you could create a skill that determines how well you use your blood abilities. I guess that kind of doesn't actually make a feat-skill based bloodline system, though.

[ecliptic]

The whole point is to make bloodline simple and within the d20 ruleset.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Originally posted by ecliptic
The whole point is to make bloodline simple and within the d20 ruleset.

The problem with that idea is that bloodlines aren't simple or within the d20 ruleset. They require additional rules, no matter how you deal with them. This is because the d20 rules only allow for special abilities as a part of a class, race, feat, skill, or spell.

If you limit the bloodline to a class, people don't advance in a progression they advance in a race (ala Savage Species). You force characters to advance in a class, spending their adventure time adventuring to gain blood-abilities instead of class abilities.
I believe starting bloodline abilities manifest around puberty. I could be wrong, but most of the players I know like having special abilities at the beginning of their career. These players generally wouldn't mind having a slower progression (higher ECL) to have these abilities. That's the beauty of the setting.

If you make the bloodline skill and feat based, you force blooded characters to expend skill and feat slots on advancing natural abilities. This seems kind of silly, because the former rules don't suggest that blood abilities manifest because of skill, but rather birth and bloodtheft.

If you make the the bloodline racial abilities, the only way to do this uniformly acrossed all the races is as a template. In my opinion, this seems to be the most balanced and true to a conversion manner that this can be implemented.

Regardless, because of the way the system is, you need a score to represent the basic bloodline and a name represent the bloodline strength. Since a skill based system and class based system doesn't allow for a straight conversion (low class level characters with high level bloodlines). Even the ECL system should be based on a score in order to judge the ECL modifier and access to abilities.

In fact, the ECL system accounts for the bonus experience granted to unblooded characters in the original Birthright rulebook. If a +1 ECL character and a +0 ECL character adventure at the same time, in the same party, then they will both reach an ECL of +2 at about the same time, though a little different. Eventually, they will have the same effective level most of their careers.

Hence, the d20 system cannot effectively handle the birthright bloodline system within the core ruleset. It can be intuitive, but a skill based system would not be simple or really work without significantly altering either the original or the d20 system in the conversion process. Thus I support a scaled ECL/template methodology, because it is very similar to the original system, very close to the d20 system, and helps smooth out some of the problems inherent in the 2E Birthright rules.

[Fizz]

I like the idea of a skills/feats based scion far more than a class. The base mechanics are already in place, everyone understands them, and they work. The original Bloodline score still works. It doesn't have to be a separate ability score. If it was meant to be, it would have been in 2nd Ed. Plus, converting to an ability score doesn't gain anything.

The feat/skills system suggests a conscious effort on the part of the scion. I've seen many people state a desire for this, and there is a certain logic to it. It means no scion with a low bloodline score will have a fluky great power, messing up the balance. This is a bad point, however, if you're one who thinks that blood abilities should manifest out of the control of the individual.

My own house system has used feats exclusively. It seems to work well. Game balance is maintained (more or less) in the same way that regular feats are- through prerequisites and requirements. Some of these are quite hefty. So no worries about ECL issues. The one disadvantage is that it means new blood abilities can only be gained at every 3rd level (Class-specific feats aren't eligible).

Now, a couple ideas for consideration:

If the Bloodline skill must have an ability modifier, make it variable instead of always Charisma. I understand the logic of Charisma, but that will favor some classes (and races) over others. But if some abilities require Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, etc, you'll even things out and take the emphasis off a single ability score. Not all blood abilities require a forceful personality, some would demand healthy fit bodies, or dedicated minds.

Instead of having the Bloodline skill grant powers based on the number of ranks, have every power require a number of ranks (in addition to the bloodline score requirement). So, a minor power might require 4 ranks, major 8, great 12. So someone with 12 ranks in Bloodline might have a single great power or 3 minor powers, or any combination not exceeding 12. Characters could deliberately save-up their ranks to go for greater powers.

-Fizz

[ecliptic]

If the Bloodline skill must have an ability modifier, make it variable instead of always Charisma. I understand the logic of Charisma, but that will favor some classes (and races) over others. But if some abilities require Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, etc, you'll even things out and take the emphasis off a single ability score. Not all blood abilities require a forceful personality, some would demand healthy fit bodies, or dedicated minds.


Personally I think it should stay Charisma modifier. Charisma is already an underpowered ability score and it would help balance it atleast in BR. Plus I think it fits the same way it fits with the Sorcerer class. All of them are magical powers. For a Wizard spell that grants a rage, they don't need a fit body.

Only other way I could see it is, there are 6 bloodlines. Each bloodline could require it's own ability score. But personally I think Charisma should be the primary for all.


Instead of having the Bloodline skill grant powers based on the number of ranks, have every power require a number of ranks (in addition to the bloodline score requirement). So, a minor power might require 4 ranks, major 8, great 12. So someone with 12 ranks in Bloodline might have a single great power or 3 minor powers, or any combination not exceeding 12. Characters could deliberately save-up their ranks to go for greater powers.

That's actually a good idea.

[ecliptic]

How much regency you have can affect how much bloodline power you have aswell.

Hell IMO this is the only way to go. Hell a new character wouldn't even need to be made to play in BR :)


Hmm.

Power Cost
Minor 5
Major 8
Greater 12

Best way is to playtest it to figure out the number you need. Got think there would be your stat modifier, regency bonus, skill ranks, aswell as any feats taken to add additional ranks. There could also be magical items that amplify your bloodline, giving you even more bonus bloodline bonus.

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, ecliptic wrote:

> Only other way I could see it is, there are 6 bloodlines.
> Each bloodline could require its own ability score.

There are seven bloodlines, so there would have to be some overlap.

I don`t happen to think bloodline powers should be based on existing
ability scores, but if you were to do this a mapping already exists:
just look at which ability gets increased by that derivation`s
Heightened Ability blood power. This gives Azrai two possibilities,
which could be implemented several different ways: choice of either,
higher/lower/average of both, randomly assign 50% of scions to use one
and the other half the other.

>
someone with 12 ranks in Bloodline might have a single great
> power or 3 minor powers, or any combination not exceeding 12.

That`s pretty much the model Starfox uses and I favor stealing from him,
except that we calculate directly from bloodline score: a minor blood
ability takes up 5 points of bloodline score, major 10 and great 20.
The best numbers to use are arguable, but the general idea is very sound.


Ryan Caveney

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[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

If a skill based system were to be used, then I would suggest that skill ranks don't determine a number of powers, but rather the effectiveness of powers. Otherwise, its not similar to other skills in D&D. Also, you have to take into account skill focus, ability bonuses and other skill affecting feats, race, and class abilities.

I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.

In a flavor/role-playing sense, I can hardly imagine (though I can imagine this scenario) a blooded scion working hard and improving his character experience in order to pop out new blood abilities. It is easier for myself to imagine a blooded scion working to improve his ability to use the blood abilities he already has.

[ecliptic]

If a skill based system were to be used, then I would suggest that skill ranks don't determine a number of powers, but rather the effectiveness of powers. Otherwise, its not similar to other skills in D&D.

Who says it needs to be similar to other skills in D&D?


Also, you have to take into account skill focus, ability bonuses and other skill affecting feats, race, and class abilities.


Yes, we know.


I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.


Sure it can.


In a flavor/role-playing sense, I can hardly imagine (though I can imagine this scenario) a blooded scion working hard and improving his character experience in order to pop out new blood abilities. It is easier for myself to imagine a blooded scion working to improve his ability to use the blood abilities he already has.

He is learning to improve his bloodline and master his powers. Sounds viable to me.

[Lord Rahvin]

Damn, I hate defending ecliptic, but I also hate seeing ideas just discarded
outright, so here`s some thoughts on the subject of blood abilities written
up using the d20 skill mechanics.


> I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.

It doesn`t have to revamp the whole skill system, just take advantage of the
skill mechanics without having the disadvantage of allocating skill points
from other areas. So just don`t use skill points. You could use something
else that uses the skill point mechanic.

A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per level.
A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a great
bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points, except only among
the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them). Feats or bloodline
strength or even bloodline derivation might determine which "blood skills"
you have access to as "class blood skills" (or whatever). Hence, at 1st
level you could have the Travel bloodskill, but with most checks at DC 25 or
so, it`s not gonna do you much good. In a pinch, you could "take 20" to
manifest the Travel and possibly travel a small distance at 2nd level that
way, but generally you`ll need to be able to hit the DC 30s to be useful.
At higher level you might just "take 10" and Travel fairly easily over short
distances.

You could pretty much do this for all of the "active" blood abilities,
couldn`t you? Heightened Ability Score(str), for example, could provide you
with a +2 bonus to your next strength check, damage roll, or strength skill
check, say at DC 15, +5 DC for each additional +2 bonus. So by the time you
have a +5 modifier, you could "take 10" and recieve that bonus (+2) to all
strength checks... kinda` like aiding yourself in the d20 mechanical way of
seeing things...

Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at once by
however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the standard 2e method
using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But, those blood abilities aren`t
especially useful until the character levels up and starts allocating his
blood ability points between his various "blood skills".

So a character would be able to, say, Detect Life, and if it was written up
like the Listen skill where the DC increases with distance, then at 1st
level the character would basically be having to touch the thing he`s
detecting unless he wanted to "take 20" and spend a bunch of time on it.
Later on, after you spend your points, all that stuff becomes much easier
and you could do stuff instantly the stuff you needed to "take 20" on
before.

This gives you a little freedom to scale the blood abilities, because each
blood ability could do quite a few different things based on the DC. And if
the player found creative uses for his blood abilities, you just have to
assign it a DC. If the player wants to become better at his blood
abilities, he should be free to do that.

I`d suggest removing the maximum cap of CharacterLevel+3, and saying that
the maximum cap is the character`s level plus some number derived from his
bloodline strength, so tainted characters for example, would only be able to
allocate an amount of points to any one "blood skill" equal to their level,
while minor blooded characters could allocate an amount equal to their level
plus two. Personally, I wouldn`t mind having feats to improve blood
abilities, but even these feats might only effect the maximum cap (for a
particular blood ability) instead of granting new blood ability points.

In this manner, bloodline derivation would determine which blood abilities
(sometimes referred to as "blood skills" in this post) you`d have access to,
bloodline strength would determine how many you have, and character level
would determine how useful those blood abilities are.

It might even be possible to have specialized blood abilities, saying, for
example, Animal Affinity only works for a particular animal at a time (a
sort of bonded companion thing) and gets a +4 bonus to all Animal Affinity
checks against that specific animal (and either a -4 penalty against
everyone else, or it just can`t be used in any other way other than the
specialty). I imagine this will happen naturally, as house rules and doesnt
need to be covered a lot in the bloodskill descriptions.


This is one example of how you could reflect blood abilities using the skill
system without completely revamping everything, throwing everything out of
balance, or wrecking the d20 system, or some other similiarly ambiguous
catastrophe.

-Lord Rahvin

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

Damn, I hate defending ecliptic, but I also hate seeing ideas just discarded
outright, so here`s some thoughts on the subject of blood abilities written
up using the d20 skill mechanics.


> I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.

It doesn`t have to revamp the whole skill system, just take advantage of the
skill mechanics without having the disadvantage of allocating skill points
from other areas. So just don`t use skill points. You could use something
else that uses the skill point mechanic.

A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per level.
A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a great
bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points, except only among
the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them). Feats or bloodline
strength or even bloodline derivation might determine which "blood skills"
you have access to as "class blood skills" (or whatever). Hence, at 1st
level you could have the Travel bloodskill, but with most checks at DC 25 or
so, it`s not gonna do you much good. In a pinch, you could "take 20" to
manifest the Travel and possibly travel a small distance at 2nd level that
way, but generally you`ll need to be able to hit the DC 30s to be useful.
At higher level you might just "take 10" and Travel fairly easily over short
distances.

You could pretty much do this for all of the "active" blood abilities,
couldn`t you? Heightened Ability Score(str), for example, could provide you
with a +2 bonus to your next strength check, damage roll, or strength skill
check, say at DC 15, +5 DC for each additional +2 bonus. So by the time you
have a +5 modifier, you could "take 10" and recieve that bonus (+2) to all
strength checks... kinda` like aiding yourself in the d20 mechanical way of
seeing things...

Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at once by
however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the standard 2e method
using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But, those blood abilities aren`t
especially useful until the character levels up and starts allocating his
blood ability points between his various "blood skills".

So a character would be able to, say, Detect Life, and if it was written up
like the Listen skill where the DC increases with distance, then at 1st
level the character would basically be having to touch the thing he`s
detecting unless he wanted to "take 20" and spend a bunch of time on it.
Later on, after you spend your points, all that stuff becomes much easier
and you could do stuff instantly the stuff you needed to "take 20" on
before.

This gives you a little freedom to scale the blood abilities, because each
blood ability could do quite a few different things based on the DC. And if
the player found creative uses for his blood abilities, you just have to
assign it a DC. If the player wants to become better at his blood
abilities, he should be free to do that.

I`d suggest removing the maximum cap of CharacterLevel+3, and saying that
the maximum cap is the character`s level plus some number derived from his
bloodline strength, so tainted characters for example, would only be able to
allocate an amount of points to any one "blood skill" equal to their level,
while minor blooded characters could allocate an amount equal to their level
plus two. Personally, I wouldn`t mind having feats to improve blood
abilities, but even these feats might only effect the maximum cap (for a
particular blood ability) instead of granting new blood ability points.

In this manner, bloodline derivation would determine which blood abilities
(sometimes referred to as "blood skills" in this post) you`d have access to,
bloodline strength would determine how many you have, and character level
would determine how useful those blood abilities are.

It might even be possible to have specialized blood abilities, saying, for
example, Animal Affinity only works for a particular animal at a time (a
sort of bonded companion thing) and gets a +4 bonus to all Animal Affinity
checks against that specific animal (and either a -4 penalty against
everyone else, or it just can`t be used in any other way other than the
specialty). I imagine this will happen naturally, as house rules and doesnt
need to be covered a lot in the bloodskill descriptions.


This is one example of how you could reflect blood abilities using the skill
system without completely revamping everything, throwing everything out of
balance, or wrecking the d20 system, or some other similiarly ambiguous
catastrophe.

-Lord Rahvin



Gary's BP system covers a lot of this without making a skill check, which is what skills are for - not a static system. That is excluding speak language which has no ranks. Gary's system allows scaling of the power level of blood abilities by applying certain amount of BP. The amount of BP generated is based on the scion's blood score, which is an independent number.

[Lord Rahvin]

> Gary`s BP system covers a lot of this without making a
> skill check, which is what skills are for - not a static
> system. That is excluding speak language which has no ranks.

For the first two sentences in the above paragraph, I have no idea what
you`re talking about. Sorry. Could you re-word it or expand on it or quote
the parts you`re responding to or do something like that? I appreciate it,
thanks.

I think you`re trying to say that bloodline is a static system and does not
lend itself well to using skills which vary over time, but that doesn`t make
much sense because I gave some specific examples of how my proposed
bloodline system wasn`t static. So I think I`m misunderstanding.

I`m going to try summarizing using different terms, because I don`t know how
else to respond and I think there`s some miscommunication going on here...

First, Bloodline strength, bloodline score, and bloodline derivation are
determined just as in 2e. There are no minor, major, or great abilities;
all abilities are equal and all start at rank 0. Determine what blood
abilities you have, either at random or by selecting some within your
derivation until you reach your maximum.
The maximum rank of any given blood ability is character level plus a value
determined by bloodline strength, Tainted(+0),
Minor(+1),Major(+2),Great(+4). At each time a character levels up, he gains
bloodpoints (Tainted:1, Minor:2, Major:3, Great:5) which can be spent to
acquire ranks in blood abilities. Using a blood ability requires a check
using only the ranks in the blood ability as a modifier, so to travel would
be a Travel Bloodpower check and at 1st level a scion with a minor bloodline
could, at best, roll a 22 (spending 2 turns, "taking 20", with a +2 for
having two ranks in Travel) but since this is a very powerful ability most
of the DCs may be too high to use at this level. I use this specific
example, because Travel is, in my opinion, one of the most potent blood
abilities that would be unbalanced just to gift to 1st level characters. But
this way, you could, by having it scale by level, so that at higher levels
you could travel wherever you want but at lower levels you could only travel
short distances to places your familiar (that have lower DCs) and even then,
you`d have to spend two turns doing it by "taking 20".


> Gary`s system allows scaling of the power level of blood
> abilities by applying certain amount of BP. The amount of
> BP generated is based on the scion`s blood score, which
> is an independent number.

Yes, I know. I like Gary`s system. If you remember, for the Scion of
Vorynn class that I posted, I used Gary`s BP system and awarded bloodpoints
everytime you leveled up in the class, in addition to variable class
abilities that you could choose from to represent the special background
options available to scions and the unique inclinations that the Vorynn
bloodline lends it`s scions to.

But it still uses ECL as the primary means to balance itself in terms of
character level. Gary`s system scales, yes, but it scales with bloodline
strength, not with character level which is the balance issue in question.
Now granted, my above system doesn`t solve for that problem because a 3rd
level scion is still better than a 3rd level commoner, but near as I can
tell that`s what you guys want, because you don`t want to him to have less
hit dice or levels or skill points, but still want him to have powers. At
least this way, yeah, he gets powers, but he doesn`t get any game-breaking
powers, and the usefulness of those powers scales with level so that higher
level characters will still be able to use their bloodpowers effectively
while 1st level characters won`t be able to Travel, Wither Touch, or
Regenerate in the classic sense (but he might be able to do weaker versions
of similiar effects). The DCs for the exact effects will likely to inspired
from Gary`s system of scaled blood abilities.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Lord Rahvin]

Level-Dependant Bloodpowers

Players may choose whether or not to play scions. The standard rules assume
that there is no ECL modifiers for playing a scion, and that there is little
reason not to play a scion. Optionally, DMs who want to perserve an ECL
balance and reflect the 2e experience award to commoners may choose to
enforce a +1 ECL at 1st level, and every 4 levels thereafter. Not paying
this required level means you never acquire additional bloodpoints for
leveling up.

Optional rule: ECLs for Bloodpower growth
------------------------------------------
+1 ECL Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 1-4
+2 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 5-8
+3 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 9-12
+4 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 13-16
* When you would normally level up, you may instead take an ECL
one level higher than you`ve previously selected.

Determining Blood Abilities
Bloodline strength and bloodline score are determined as per the Birthright
rulebook. Bloodline derivation is determined as per Gary`s system, copied
below:

d8 Anuire Brecht Khinasi Rjurik Vos
1 And. And. And. And. Azrai
2 And. Reynir Basaïa Reynir And.
3 Reynir Brenna Reynir Reynir Reynir
4 Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna
5 Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa
6 Masela Masela Masela Masela Masela
7 Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn
8 Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai

d8 Dwarf Elf/ Goblin Halfl. Other *
1/2-elf
1 And. And. And. And. Azrai
2 And. Reynir Azrai Brenna Anduiras
3 Reynir Reynir Reynir Reynir Reynir
4 Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna
5 Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa
6 Masela Masela Masela Masela Masela
7 Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn
8 Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai


Next, players must choose their blood abilities. Alternatively, this could
be done randomly.

Next, players must determine how many blood abilities they have. I
recommend giving one blood ability per X points of bloodline strength, but
here`s a quick alternative: Characters with Tainted bloodlines may choose 1
power. All others roll randomly to determine how many blood abilities they
have:
Minor: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 3-6.
Major: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 4-6.
Great: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 6.

Players may choose not to take one less blood ability to gain a +1 bonus to
using one of their existing blood abilities. This option may be taken more
than once. These bonuses stack.

Once the number of blood abilities is determined, each blood ability must be
chosen from a list based on blood derivation:

Anduiras: Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Courage, Detect Lie, Detect Life,
Divine Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing, Iron
Will, Long Life, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Unreadable
Thoughts.

Azrai: Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
Life, Divine Aura, Fear, Invulnerability, Iron Will, Long Life, Persuasion,
Poison Sense, Poison Touch, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Shadow
Form, Touch of Decay, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts, Wither Touch.

Masela: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
Life, Direction Sense, Divine Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control,
Enhanced Sense, Long Life, Protective Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable
Thoughts.

Vorynn: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
Life, Divine Aura, Enhanced Sense, Invulnerability, Long Life, Protective
Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts.

Reynir: Animal Affinity, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect Life, Direction
Sense, Divine Aura, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing, Iron Will,
Long Life, Poison Sense, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Unreadable
Thoughts.

Brenna: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
Life, Enhanced Sense, Long Life, Persuasion, Protective Aura, Resistance,
Shadow Form, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts.

Basaiia: Animal Affinity, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect Life, Divine
Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing,
Invulnerability, Long Life, Protective Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable
Thoughts.


To use a blood ability, a character must make a bloodpower check. Unless
otherwise stated, this is considered an attack(partial) action. The player
adds his ranks in the blood ability to the results of a d20 roll and
compares them to the DC of the effect he`s trying to achieve. Some sample
blood abilities: (descriptions and effects inspired from Gary`s Blood
Ability Point System)


Blood History [Masala, Vorynn, Brenna]
Your bloodline gives you a sort of living memory that allows you to connect
to the minds of your ancestors in order to draw upon their knowledge and
life experiences.
The memories you can access are up until the time of your birth and the
birth of your ancestors. That is, you have the memories of your parent (the
one with the appropriate bloodline and derivation) up until you were born.
A sibling born two years later would have two years more of memories.
Check: You may use this bloodpower to see whether or not you can remember
some important memory of your ancestors such as information about historic
events, legendary items, or noteworthy places. This check will not reveal
the powers of a magical item, but may give some hint to its function. Each
time the character attempts such a check, he recieves a -1 penalty to all
future Blood History checks that day until he gets a good night`s rest.
DC 12 Recent memories or common knowledge.
DC 15 Older, uncommon knowledge, within the last 100 yrs.
DC 20 Rare knowledge, personal impressions, up to 1000 yrs.
DC 25 Obscure, non-recorded information since Deismaar.
DC 30 Information purposefully kept hidden since Deismaar.


Enhanced Sense (hawkeye) [Basaiia]
You have the eyes of a hawk.
DC 12 You gain low-light vision for one round.
DC 15 +1 bonus to your next ranged attack roll
DC 20 +2 bonus to your next ranged attack roll
DC 20 You gain low-light vision for one full turn.
DC 25 +3 bonus to your next ranged attack roll

Enhanced Sense (precognition) [Vorynn]
You gain a limited form of precognition. Each time you use this ability,
you recieve a -1 penalty to all future bloodpower checks to use this blood
ability.
DC 12 If someone suprises you, you may react by attempting to manifest
this bloodpower. If successful, you are not flat-footed.
DC 15 You may re-roll a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill
check. The second roll must be taken.
DC 15 You get the equivalent of Augury (PHB 177)
DC 30 You gain the equialent of Divination.

Persuasion [Azrai, Brenna]
This ability gives you a silver tongue.
DC 12 You recieve a +2 bonus to your next Diplomacy check.
DC 15 You may create a bonding with someone. Only one person may be
bonded in this manner per day.
DC 15 You may use suggestion on the bonded person. Doing so destroys
the bond.
DC 18 You may gain the effect of a charm person on someone you`ve been
bonded to.
DC 20 You may create a bond with a monster. Only one bond may be
created per day.


Resistance (light) [Besaiia]
You are resistant to a spells and spell-like effects of light and fire
targeted against you. You must manifest this ability before the spell is
cast on you.
You may enchant yourself with a protective aura, granting you temporary
Spell Resistance. The value of the Spell Resistance determines the DC of
the bloodpower check. Manifesting the bloodpower is an attack(partial)
action, but no action is required to maintain it. Manifesting the
bloodpower requires a DC equal to the SR -5. Maintaining the SR requires a
bloodpower check every round at the same DC, +2 DC for every round that
passes.


Regenerate [Anduiras, Azrai, Reynir]
You can regenerate wounds quickly. If you`ve lost hitpoints, you may
manifest this power to regain lost hitpoints. The number of hitpoints
restored can never exceed your normal hitpoint total. Each time you use
this ability, you recieve a -1 penalty to all future attempts to manifest
this ability for the rest of the day.
DC 15 Minor Regeneration: Restore 1d4 hitpoints. This can not be
used if your current hitpoint total is below 0.
DC 15 Recovery: You are no longer Dazed, Stunned, or Unconscious. A
failed bloodpower check when attempting to use this ability can not be
attempted again.
DC 15 Stablization: If you`re a dying character at negative
hitpoints, you can attempt a bloodpower check (DC 15) to stabalize. A
failed attempt can not be attempted again.
DC 20 Awaken: If you`re at negative hitpoints, but stable, then a
successful bloodpower check will increase your total hitpoint total up to 0.
The base time for this is 1 hour.
DC 30 Advanced Regeneration: You can regain significant amounts of
hitpoints or even reattach lost limbs. The base time for this is 1 hour,
rather than one attack(partial) action. On a successful bloodpower check,
you regain you`re full total hitpoints.


Shadow Form (Azrai, Brenna)
With this ability you are able to manipulate shadows, even taking on the
characteristics of shadows yourself. Each time you use manifest this blood
ability or spend one round maintaining this blood ability, the DC for all
future attempts to manifest or maintain this blood ability is increased by
one round.
DC 12 Darkvision for one round.
DC 12 You gain a +2 bonus to Hide checks for one round.
DC 15 You may use your Hide check without needing a hiding place,
allowing you to hide in plain sight. (You roll the bloodpower check after
the opposed Hide/Spot rolls.) Using this bloodpower is a free action.
DC 20 You may become incorpreal, as a shadow. This must be maintained
each round, but maintaining this power does not require an attack(partial)
action.

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

Yes, I know. I like Gary`s system. If you remember, for the Scion of
Vorynn class that I posted, I used Gary`s BP system and awarded bloodpoints
everytime you leveled up in the class, in addition to variable class
abilities that you could choose from to represent the special background
options available to scions and the unique inclinations that the Vorynn
bloodline lends it`s scions to.

But it still uses ECL as the primary means to balance itself in terms of
character level. Gary`s system scales, yes, but it scales with bloodline
strength, not with character level which is the balance issue in question.
Now granted, my above system doesn`t solve for that problem because a 3rd
level scion is still better than a 3rd level commoner, but near as I can
tell that`s what you guys want, because you don`t want to him to have less
hit dice or levels or skill points, but still want him to have powers. At
least this way, yeah, he gets powers, but he doesn`t get any game-breaking
powers, and the usefulness of those powers scales with level so that higher
level characters will still be able to use their bloodpowers effectively
while 1st level characters won`t be able to Travel, Wither Touch, or
Regenerate in the classic sense (but he might be able to do weaker versions
of similiar effects). The DCs for the exact effects will likely to inspired
from Gary`s system of scaled blood abilities.

-Lord Rahvin



Actually most favor an ECL type system. There was a poll on Chapter 2 (of the playtest document) info and the one that had nearly twice as many in favor as opposed was using ECLs. This was not to be interpreted as using the proposed ECL system, but some sort of ECL system.:)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

> Gary`s BP system covers a lot of this without making a
> skill check, which is what skills are for - not a static
> system. That is excluding speak language which has no ranks.

For the first two sentences in the above paragraph, I have no idea what
you`re talking about. Sorry. Could you re-word it or expand on it or quote
the parts you`re responding to or do something like that? I appreciate it,
thanks.

I think you`re trying to say that bloodline is a static system and does not
lend itself well to using skills which vary over time, but that doesn`t make
much sense because I gave some specific examples of how my proposed
bloodline system wasn`t static. So I think I`m misunderstanding.
-Lord Rahvin



What I was refering to was the very act of having to make skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary's system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes abilities better or broader in use. Again, something you've mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.


To use a blood ability, a character must make a bloodpower check. Unless
otherwise stated, this is considered an attack(partial) action. The player
adds his ranks in the blood ability to the results of a d20 roll and
compares them to the DC of the effect he`s trying to achieve. Some sample
blood abilities: (descriptions and effects inspired from Gary`s Blood
Ability Point System)

-Lord Rahvin


This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system, at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities. I haven't seen any publication that requires a skill check to activate a spell-like ability. This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for what I've seen people complain about a lot is the amount of dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this situation worse. How would a skill check work to activate an ability such as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks? How much time would this entail, since each skill check is normally a standard action?:)

[Lord Rahvin]

> What I was refering to was the very act of having to make
> skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary`s
> system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes
> abilities better or broader in use. Again, something
> you`ve mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.

Well, yes. But again, that scaling is not based on character level, it`s
based on bloodline strength. While that`s cool, it doesn`t address the
specific concerns of this system:
* Scions should start at 1st level
* Scions should not have to level up in a different class
* Scions should get all their blood abilities from the beginning
* Low level scions should not have access to unbalanced abilities that
may ruin adventures
* High level scions should still be able to use their blood abilities
effectively.

So yes, scaling is good. Balance is good. But that`s not the whole of it.
Scaling doesn`t just mean blood abilities should scale, but in this case
that the scaling should solve a specific problem (point 4, above). The
balance I`m trying to achieve isn`t a balance between scions and non-scions,
it`s between the abilities of a scion and the challenge of a typical
adventure.


> This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
> at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.

None of the ones I`ve written up have been spell-like abilities, except
maybe Persuasion and even that was done a bit differently. Since I`m also
rewriitng the magic system, I was trying to avoid outright spell-like
abilities.

But even if the blood abilities are spell-like, what`s wrong with that?

> I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check
> to activate a spell-like ability.

Not to sound like ecliptic here but, so what? It doesn`t take a lot of
effort to imagine how this works. You roll a skill check, spell-like
ability happens. There`ll be a little more to it than that, of course. I
know it might be revolutionary and heretic to do something that`s not been
published, but I`m sure together we could make it work.


> This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
> what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
> dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
> situation worse.

I find this one really hard to believe. Who objects to dice rolls being
used? I don`t know of many players who don`t like rolling dice during play.
Is this another result of your polls? :)


> How would a skill check work to activate an ability such
> as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks?
> How much time would this entail, since each skill check
> is normally a standard action?:)

(Are you really saying that a bloodline system based around the skill system
wouldn`t be able to interact well with skills?!)

Well, I was hoping the BR community would have some suggestions, here, based
on what they`d like to see included in the system. I don`t understand why
you`re resisting the idea instead of offering suggestions to improve on it.
Here`s some thoughts on how to work Alertness, just off the top of my head:
Since ranks in blood abilities are lower than ranks in skills (generally), I
don`t know if I have any problem in saying your Alertness ranks provide +1
modifiers to Spot and Listen checks, or maybe 2 ranks per +1. It`s the
power of the gods here, so I`m inclined to even say 1 rank per +2. But I
don`t particularly like that solution. I had several examples where at DC
12 you would gain a +2 bonus to a skill, effectively meaning that once you
had 2 ranks in the blood ability, you could "take 10" and always
automatically recieve that bonus. Alternatively, as a reaction, Alertness
could grant you Uncanny Dodge or a similiar effect on a successful check,
say DC 15. It might even overlap a little with some of the effects from
Enhanced Sense(precognition) or Detect Life blood abilities.

While I was writing up the blood abilities by the way, I decided that all
blood abilities should be free actions unless otherwise stated. Also,
unless otherwise stated, using a blood ability for any effect incurs a -1
penalty to all future attempts to use that blood ability that day. (I was
thinking of even including a bloodpower Rejuvination or something that would
allow you to remove one of these -1 modifiers per rank in the Rejuvination
ability per day. [Only characters with Major or Great Bloodlines would have
enough blood abilities to take advantage of this.] Now in addition to
adding dice rolls, I`m adding to the bookkeeping involved, but this isn`t
hard: just put a little dot or slash mark on your character sheet after
using each ability.

---

I`d rather you just come out and say you don`t like the system rather than
give nonsense rhetoric as to why it couldn`t work.
- It would interact with Skills? Sure it could.
- It wouldn`t work with spell-like abilities? It could.
(Persuasion is an example of both of these used.)
(Note that the additional rules above [-1 per use] are
needed to handle spell-like abilities.)
- We already have systems that scale? That`s not really an argument
against this system. And I gave specific arguments for why this system is
built this way and the specific problems it`s trying to solve. (At least I
think I did; if this is still unclear, let me know.)
- It requires more dice rolls? I hope this is really a major issue
with you, otherwise it just gets me kind of upset because it sounds like
you`re really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to look for reasons
to shut me up. Yes, if this is really a major issue with you, I`ll grant
you this one. Yeah, it uses more die rolls. That was one of the primary
intents when I sat down to write it.



Just so we`re all clear though, I do want to point out that my system does
have three major disadvantages: (not including that it needs dice)
* One, I need the help of the Birthright community to writeup the
specific blood ability entries. My intent here is to provide an argument
for a system that has more (or better) pros and fewer (or acceptable) cons.
I`m not actually providing the system itself, yet.
* Two, even though it attempts to balance scions with adventures, it
doesn`t balance scions with non-scions. I felt that balance concerns should
be handled as an optional rule. Low-level characters or more or less
balance, but the higher level you go, the more imbalanced things get.
* Three, it adds bookkeeping with the "-1" rule and the different DCs.
However, anyone who can handle the complexities of the D&D magic system
could easily handle the bookkeeping involved in this.


I`ll continue the trend of pro/con analysis, trying to use some of the
entries already used for consistency.

Blood abilities using skill mechanics
(Anyone got a good name for this system? "Bloodskill" doesn`t sound right.)

pro - BR rulebook used to determine strength and score
pro - All blood abilities given at 1st level, based on score (as in BR
rulebook). Accounts for inborn abilities.
pro - Recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
pro - Allows campaigns to begin at 1st level.
pro - effectiveness of blood abilities linked to bloodline strength and
character level.
pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels.
pro - inherent (DC) system for players who use blood abilities in creative
ways
pro - has an intuitive system for bloodtheft

con - ECLs, if used, have to be scaled with level. (See my optional rule)
con - Can`t have superpower effects at 1st level. (But you could have
lesser versions of those effects...)


I included the pro, "has an intuitive system for bloodtheft" because I
beleive that only the templates and classes have the problem of a system
that doesn`t lend itself to bloodtheft. Anything that`s point-based, as
this system and as Gary`s system as, should be able to handle things like
investiture and bloodtheft pretty well.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Lord Rahvin]

> This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
> at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.
> I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check to
> activate a spell-like ability.

Concentration checks are in the core rulebook, and force you to make a skill
check to cast an actual spell once certain conditions are met. This isn`t
much of a new concept.

> This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
> what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
> dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
> situation worse.

If you like, I`m assuming you could always take 10 or take 20 and gave
several examples of that in my introduction to the system. Once you could
"take 10" to achieve a certain DC, that power is considered fairly
"Automatic". Taking 20 was also used to allow low level characters to use
great effects outside of combat and critical situations.


> How would a skill check work to activate an ability such
> as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks? How
> much time would this entail, since each skill check is
> normally a standard action?:)

Since you require published sources for some reason, one of my players found
one for you. Star Wars is a d20 product that has an Enhanced Senses force
skill. To use this ability, you make a check based on that force skill to
achieve a certain DC, and, if successful, you gain a bonus to Spot, Listen,
and Search based on well you rolled.

-Lord Rahvin

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Rahvin wrote:

>> What I was refering to was the very act of having to make
>> skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary`s
>> system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes
>> abilities better or broader in use. Again, something
>> you`ve mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.
>
> Well, yes. But again, that scaling is not based on character level, it`s
> based on bloodline strength. While that`s cool, it doesn`t address the
> specific concerns of this system:
> * Scions should start at 1st level

Not rather: Scions should be able to start at 1st level?
Many people simply take over the existing regents who are not 1st level.
Some start as unblooded and somehow (bloodtheft, investiture) earn a
bloodline later.
So a character could become a scion at any point in his life, from his
birth before his 1st level up to his death.

> * Scions should not have to level up in a different class
> * Scions should get all their blood abilities from the beginning
> * Low level scions should not have access to unbalanced abilities
> that
> may ruin adventures

Isn´t that a matter of adventure design? The DM knows the powers of the
players before the adventure even starts, and both some great
bloodability as well as some major magical item can spoil something that
was planned otherwise - does that mean that you say that magical items
should only be created and stored in chests to be found for players,
after those players have reached the level at which the magical items
may not have any effect on the adventure? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[kgauck]

The complaint about more die rolls seems to me more about non-intuitive die
rolls than it is frequent recourse to numbered polyhedrons. When a DM has
to consult a chart, or even worse, look up a table, the game is measurably
slowed. When two characters make competing skill checks, its easily
resolved without much consultation of anything (maybe a character record)
and the result is obvious. So, I would say its tables and charts that are
the problem, not the dice themselves.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 01:02 PM 4/19/2003 -0600, Lord Rahvin wrote:

>So yes, scaling is good. Balance is good. But that`s not the whole of
>it. Scaling doesn`t just mean blood abilities should scale, but in this
>case that the scaling should solve a specific problem (point 4,
>above). The balance I`m trying to achieve isn`t a balance between scions
>and non-scions, it`s between the abilities of a scion and the challenge of
>a typical adventure.

That`s a rather artificial distinction that doesn`t really have any
effective value unless it`s going to accompany a lot of additional
material. Since non-scions have the same challenge system as scions in a
typical adventure differentiating between scions and non-scions for the
purpose of a system of effects while ignoring the way the same information
is rated for non-scions doesn`t make sense because the same methods are
used to make up adventures for both, so unless you`re coming up with a
second system to balance adventures to accommodate the changes to
determining the balance of scions that will also work with commoners (since
they are often mixed in the same adventure) then there`s little point in
coming up with a new way of scaling scions alone while ignoring how that
influences the scaling of non-scions.

>>This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
>>at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.
>
>None of the ones I`ve written up have been spell-like abilities, except
>maybe Persuasion and even that was done a bit differently. Since I`m also
>rewriitng the magic system, I was trying to avoid outright spell-like
>abilities.
>
>But even if the blood abilities are spell-like, what`s wrong with that?

Does this system of bloodline accompany that rewritten magic
system? Honestly, I`m having trouble following your thinking on this, and
I suspect it`s because there is a whole system--at least
conceptually--behind it. That is, making blood abilities a spell-like
ability makes no difference to 3e/d20, so why is avoiding spell-like
abilities something you`ve avoided?

To address the concern re: skill checks required to activate spell-like
abilities, the issue is I think that a skill check to activate a spell-like
ability could be just as easily seen as a skill check to activate a
spell. The distinction is, in fact, pretty vague. Since special (usually
dramatic and damaging) conditions provoke a Concentration check to cast
spells making that the default for all spell-like abilities is a
substantial drop in utility. Where the standard concept of a "spell-like"
ability is that it functions more or less as an innate ability, making a
check is an entirely different thing.

>>I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check
>>to activate a spell-like ability.
>
>Not to sound like ecliptic here but, so what? It doesn`t take a lot of
>effort to imagine how this works. You roll a skill check, spell-like
>ability happens. There`ll be a little more to it than that, of course. I
>know it might be revolutionary and heretic to do something that`s not been
>published, but I`m sure together we could make it work.

It does take a little bit of imagine to come up with a reason that it`s
necessary, though.... From what I can tell the merit of using skills as
blood abilities is that the concept could then be extended so that the
blood abilities could apply to a whole range of activities, not just those
ascribed to the descriptions. While I like the general thinking there, I
have a couple of suspicions about how that would actually play out.

First, I`d be concerned that any blood ability would turn into a sort of
acme skill, applicable to all checks based on the rationale of the player
being allowed by the DM. A character with the Heightened Ability blood
ability could come up with all kinds of justifications for why his ability
should apply to just about any situation, so he should get those bonuses on
all kinds of checks, opening the door to all kinds of funky and possibly
ridiculous rationalizations. The BP system I wrote up was largely based on
some of the ideas expressed in d20 superhero games, but I made some
specific effort to differentiate bloodline using similar mechanics from the
way powers get used in superhero RPGs to deal with any and all
situations. In its most basic level, I suspect that`s the direction your
system is going.

Second, it`s somewhat conceptually obverse. That is, skills and feats
represent learned abilities for the most part. Bloodlines are innate and
divine. I think the stuff suggested by several people that characters
should have to learn to use their blood abilities is interesting, I don`t
know that using skills and feats would necessarily be the way to go in
order to accomplish that particular goal, nor do I think it would be
particularly apt for a system of bloodline even if learning as one goes was
the goal. Making bloodline a character class would work much the same way
and is, in effect, what bloodline as skills and feats does except that it
omits HD, BAB, and saving throw progressions. Instead, it replaces class
abilities and skill points with blood abilities. That`s all well and good,
but it doesn`t balance particularly well when divorced from levels and
ECLs, so I don`t think it very accurately fits into a d20 rules set or even
works very well as a balanced stand alone system.

>>This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
>>what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
>>dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
>>situation worse.
>
>I find this one really hard to believe. Who objects to dice rolls being
>used? I don`t know of many players who don`t like rolling dice during play.
>Is this another result of your polls? :)

No one objects to die rolls. The objection is to superfluous die rolls.

>Well, I was hoping the BR community would have some suggestions, here, based
>on what they`d like to see included in the system. I don`t understand why
>you`re resisting the idea instead of offering suggestions to improve on it.

We`re just trying to get some clarification here. You should expect some
questions since the system seems to be only partially fleshed out. In
fact, those questions constitute the suggestions you`re looking for since
they are, in effect, telling you what issues need to be addressed or
clarified in your system. If you`re looking for someone to write it up for
you, though... well, you`ll probably be out of luck.

> - It requires more dice rolls? I hope this is really a major issue
>with you, otherwise it just gets me kind of upset because it sounds like
>you`re really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to look for reasons
>to shut me up. Yes, if this is really a major issue with you, I`ll grant
>you this one. Yeah, it uses more die rolls. That was one of the primary
>intents when I sat down to write it.

This argument really is not what you`ve made it out to be, so your getting
upset about it is more a product of your own invention rather than anything
coming from the point being raised. The number of die rolls needed to
perform a specific action during play is a legitimate concern since having
to roll a check or two before making a check extends the amount of time
that is not dedicated to actual play. One could, for instance, have a
system of combat that had a die roll to successfully operate the weapon
being employed, another to hit a target, a third to determine that target`s
defensive capacity, a fourth the bypass any armor or other equipment, a
fifth to determine the location struck, etc. Such things bog down play
considerably.

In this case, questioning the need for a check to determine the bonus to a
check is a legitimate concern for a couple of reasons. First of all,
because it does differ a bit from most d20 standards. Most often d20
handles this kind of thing with a simple, automatic bonus. There`s not a
lot of precedence for this kind of check (even aid checks are really
different from the kind of thing you`re suggesting) but it`s highly
arguable whether a bonus from blood abilities qualify as something that
would require that kind of game mechanic when there is a much simpler and
easier method of dealing with such a thing with a bonus alone. I`d suggest
that unless the bonus gained from a blood ability check is going to be so
substantial as to shift things into a sort of "epic level" of play then it
probably would be just as efficient game mechanically to go with a straight
bonus to a check.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

Thanks Gary,
You pretty much summed up my concerns without coming across as arrogant and overly negative. I appologize if that's how I came off. I was just trying to voice my concerns/questions and I guess they came off as attacks rather than real questions.

Concentration is a skill check made to ensure that the act of casting a spell can continue. Not to see if one can cast the spell. The conditions that require a concentration check are basically taking damage at the time of casting a spell (or being counter spelled) but the act (damage received, etc.) occurs at the time the spell is being cast. So it is not really a check to cast but a check to see if the caster's concentration can be maintained on the task at hand.

Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10 rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a "norm".

The Star Wars skills in question require a check and then the result determines the "bonus" that applies to the next action. The check is a standard action and the affected action almost always takes place the next round. So for the example given (Alertness) it is not an entirely unreasonable comparison. The issue arrises when Spot checks are done to determine surprise or other reflexive issues. This was pointed out, legitamately, as a flaw in the playtest version of making all blood abilities spell-like that require a standard action to implement. Alertness is one of th few blood ablilites that doesn't translate very well into a spell-like ability. In the playtest document we need to give it some more "punch", the other abilities were beefed up so that they were more powerful than the standard abilities, Alertness wasn't (my bad).:)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:25 PM


> That`s a rather artificial distinction that doesn`t really have any
> effective value unless it`s going to accompany a lot of additional
> material.

The way I read Mssr Rahvin`s post was that the standard against which scions
are to be balanced are challenges, not non-scions. If both scions and
non-scions are well balanced against the scale of challenges, then I can
have fun with all encounters. If I get bogged down in balancing scions vs
non-scions I must be responding to the fear of player resentment (he`s got a
better PC) rather than total enjoyment. I suspect that if both scions and
non-scions are independently balanced against encounters, they are
reasonably well balanced against each other as well.

Then again, maybe I just read more into that than there was. Lord Rahvin
will set me strait if I did.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 01:56 AM 4/20/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Concentration is a skill check made to ensure that the act of casting a
>spell can continue. Not to see if one can cast the spell. The conditions
>that require a concentration check are basically taking damage at the time
>of casting a spell (or being counter spelled) but the act (damage
>received, etc.) occurs at the time the spell is being cast. So it is not
>really a check to cast but a check to see if the caster`s concentration
>can be maintained on the task at hand.

Yeah, it`s a subtle distinction, but one that I suppose really has pretty
extensive implications. In a like manner an aid check (which was also
brought up) differs quite a bit from the type of check to get a bonus for a
couple of reasons. It might sound silly, but in it`s most basic form the
biggest difference is that it`s not the same player who makes that check
(unless he`s playing both characters.) An aid check is a character making
a check to assist another character, which may slow down play as much as
any other check does, but because it includes more players its not as
notable a pause. In fact, I`d argue that its a more inclusive thing since
more players get involved in the action.

Note that I would like to see a skill-based magic system. (Just about
anything would be an improvement over D&D`s magic system IMO.) In the case
of blood abilities I`m not sure a skill based approach is the best one, but
it would be interesting to see someone put one together.... It took me
about a month to write up the BP system stuff, though, and that was done
after a lot of thought had already been put into the ideas expressed, so I
think it might take an awful lot of effort to put together.

>Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means
>taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A
>skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10
>rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard
>action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a
>"norm".

Actually, taking 10 takes the same amount of time that a normal skill check
takes. It`s just that one assumes "the average" roll for an "average"
effort at a task that doesn`t have any particular negative consequences
and/or is performed with no threat or distraction to the character. Taking
20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check as it
assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he would "on
average" get a 20 over that period of time.

You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check? Is it even
possible? I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
instance, the domain level of play....

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 07:58, Lord Rahvin wrote:
Damn, I hate defending ecliptic, but I also hate seeing ideas just discarded
outright, so here`s some thoughts on the subject of blood abilities written
up using the d20 skill mechanics.


> I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.

It doesn`t have to revamp the whole skill system, just take advantage of the
skill mechanics without having the disadvantage of allocating skill points
from other areas. So just don`t use skill points. You could use something
else that uses the skill point mechanic.

<<SNIP>>

This is one example of how you could reflect blood abilities using the skill
system without completely revamping everything, throwing everything out of
balance, or wrecking the d20 system, or some other similiarly ambiguous
catastrophe.

-Lord Rahvin

Well argued.

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman>Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means
>taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A
>skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10
>rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard
>action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a
>"norm".

Actually, taking 10 takes the same amount of time that a normal skill check
takes. It`s just that one assumes "the average" roll for an "average"
effort at a task that doesn`t have any particular negative consequences
and/or is performed with no threat or distraction to the character. Taking
20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check as it
assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he would "on
average" get a 20 over that period of time.
Gary


True enough, the PHB doesn't say that taking 10 takes 10 times as long. It does under taking 20. It does however say, "When you ar not in a rush and not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. . ..Distractions or threats make it impossible for a character to take 10." So taking 10 in an initiative order situation would generally be eliminated from the possible.

Sage advice also clarified this as taking 10 is just being careful not taking any longer (like taking 20). So I fully agree with you and I was making an assumption on this point without checking all the rules (my bad).



You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check? Is it even
possible? I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
instance, the domain level of play....


As far as taking 20 on the domain level of play. This would be really hard, since taking 20 does require 20 times the length of time to perform the check. Most domain level actions are assumed to take the better part of a month to actually perform, not a single round (like an ordinary skill) so that would translate into 20 months (or so depending on exactly how long the specific action is taking as a base). Taking 10 on the other hand. . . I'll leave this issue to Mark_Aurel to address, since he is the specific Chapter editor for domain play chapter.

[Birthright-L]

> ecliptic wrote:
> Bloodsteal: To determine if you have stolen the scion`s bloodline. Do an
opposed roll against the enemy scion`s Bloodline skill. If you match it or
beat his roll, you obtain bloodline skill ranks. The gain the number of
ranks by how much you beat him by.
>

Maybe I`m commenting out of context, but this seems ALL wrong. It should be
easier to steal bloodline from someone with a higher rating, so it is if the
opposed roll FAILS that you should get a bonus.

/Carl

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> Taking 20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check
> as it assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he
> would "on average" get a 20 over that period of time.

Another technical point: the character doesn`t "on average" get a 20 --
rather the character gets one of each roll from 1 through 20 inclusive.
Therefore it cannot be used in a situation where a low roll would produce
some sort of critical failure which would prevent the process from being
completed (e.g. climbing while risking a fatal fall).

> You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
> character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check?
> Is it even possible?

I would be inclined to think so, but I`m not certain. Part of it depends
on exactly how the aid check itself is implemented. If the aider is
taking 10 on the aid attempt, then since that level of performance can be
maintained indefinitely, it should certainly be allowed to aid someone who
is taking 20. On the other hand, if for some reason the task was
difficult enough that both the aider and the aidee needed to roll 20s at
the same time, then the total task ought to take 400 times as long!

> I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
> instance, the domain level of play....

I think that here we can save ourselves by stating that a single action
resolution attempt for any domain-affecting skill roll takes a whole
action round. Taking 20 would take 20 action rounds -- nearly two whole
years -- and be the only domain action the regent could attempt. That
should make taking 20 at the domain level not much of an issue.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per
> level. A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a
> great bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points,
> except only among the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them).
>
> Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at
> once by however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the
> standard 2e method using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But,
> those blood abilities aren`t especially useful until the character
> levels up and starts allocating his blood ability points between his
> various "blood skills".

I like this. I really like this. I want to say something more useful at
some point, but it will take me some time to work out exactly what.

But right now, I want to say again -- I really like this approach.


Ryan Caveney

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[Shade]

At 12:28 AM 4/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1578
>
> ecliptic wrote:
> It is by far the most simple way and it seems to be able to be the most
balanced aswell as keeping with the setting.

You state this as if it were a fact. It isn`t. It`s your opinion, and I
disagree with it.

This system has at least one major flaw. One of the fantastic things about
Birthright is that a low-level character can have extraordinary powers
because of a bloodline. Under your system, because a low-level character
can`t have 15 or 20 ranks in a skill, that character can`t manifest any
great blood abilities.

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[Shade]

>Personally I think it should stay Charisma modifier. Charisma is already
an underpowered ability score and it would help balance it atleast in BR.

Charisma is underpowered?! Charisma is the most powerful ability score.. it
is the only one that (with the proper prestige classes) factors into
spellcasting, turning undead, initiative, armor class, damage, and saving
throws in addition to being the prime roleplaying/leadership stat.

About the only core mechanic that isn`t potentially affected by Charisma is
hit points.

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[Birthright-L]

One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
Dark


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:
>
> > A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per
> > level. A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a
> > great bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points,
> > except only among the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them).
> >
> > Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at
> > once by however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the
> > standard 2e method using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But,
> > those blood abilities aren`t especially useful until the character
> > levels up and starts allocating his blood ability points between his
> > various "blood skills".
>
> I like this. I really like this. I want to say something more useful at
> some point, but it will take me some time to work out exactly what.
>
> But right now, I want to say again -- I really like this approach.
>
>
> Ryan Caveney
>
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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 22:37, David Sean Brown wrote:
One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
Dark

Is this a problem for fighters? (whose players roll low strength?) etc
etc

How many priest characters run around with a wisdom of 9?

A player who wants to play a Scion will get a character with a decent
bloodline.

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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, David Sean Brown wrote:

> One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything
> at the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path
> if they don`t roll very well to begin with.

Well, yeah -- but I don`t much like actually *rolling* anything during
character creation. If that means all the PCs have either big bloodlines
or no bloodlines, that`s OK with me. Actually, in a point-buy system, I
think non-regent wizards are likely to end up just tainted.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

I agree, though it is a bit different...this isn`t supposed to be a "stat"
from my understanding of the discussion. It would take away a bit from
the overall flavour of the setting, as no longer will the low bloodline
player be likely to rise from obscurity to rule...

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 22:37, David Sean Brown wrote:
> One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
> the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
> they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
> number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
> Dark
>
> Is this a problem for fighters? (whose players roll low strength?) etc
> etc
>
> How many priest characters run around with a wisdom of 9?
>
> A player who wants to play a Scion will get a character with a decent
> bloodline.
>
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[Birthright-L]

> Well, yeah -- but I don`t much like actually *rolling* anything during
> character creation. If that means all the PCs have either big bloodlines
> or no bloodlines, that`s OK with me. Actually, in a point-buy system, I
> think non-regent wizards are likely to end up just tainted.
>
This is likely true...especially (as some people here had proposed) if
your bloodline score automatically improves as you improve
skills/feats/scoin class levels (depending on which way we go..)

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[Lord Rahvin]

Dark,
Based on what you quoted before, I`m not sure what you`re objecting to. Why
would you not "follow the path"? What path? You get bloodpoints for
leveling up, and you can spend those points on blood abilities that were
chosen during character generation. Are you saying that if you got a low
score and didn`t get as many points as you wanted per level that you would
opt instead to be unblooded and get no points per level for some reason?
Under this system, there really isn`t any reason not to be blooded. It`s an
advantage... just not a significant game-breaking advantage that makes it
harder to plan adventures around.

I`m not sure, but I think you might be confusing my level-based bloodline
system with the "scion as a class" proposals. Look at the parts you quoted
and the original messages they`re quoted from. I just don`t see your point
where your problem comes from.

And as for Ryan`s reply to this message relating to tainted wizards: in any
kind of point-based bloodline system, I always hate that the wizard chooses
to spend the bare mininum amount required for his bloodline, which is why I
opted for level limits. Level limits make more sense in 3e than in 2e
because of the ease of multiclassing. In my campaigns you need a certain
bloodline strength to take levels in Wizard or Sorcerer (tainted[4],
minor[8], major[12], great[16]). This was an old house rule, and is being
updated for the new 10-level class writeups, wherein the level of true-magic
eligibility will be determined as a blood ability.



> One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
> the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
> they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
> number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
> Dark
>
>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:
>>
>> > A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per
>> > level. A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a
>> > great bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points,
>> > except only among the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them).
>> >
>> > Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at
>> > once by however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the
>> > standard 2e method using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But,
>> > those blood abilities aren`t especially useful until the character
>> > levels up and starts allocating his blood ability points between his
>> > various "blood skills".
>>
>> I like this. I really like this. I want to say something more useful at
>> some point, but it will take me some time to work out exactly what.
>>
>> But right now, I want to say again -- I really like this approach.
>>
>>
>> Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

> I`m not sure, but I think you might be confusing my level-based bloodline
> system with the "scion as a class" proposals. Look at the parts you quoted
> and the original messages they`re quoted from. I just don`t see your point
> where your problem comes from.
>

I was discussing in gereralities...not specifically related to your
idea...I should have made things clearer. I understand how your method
works, though I would prefer an either/or scenario. With no downside to
being blooded (or no non blooded equivalent), everyone would be blooded
(outside of roleplaying of course :) )...as you said, its only an
advantage. I think it takes a bit away from things if everyone is the
same...however, to each his own..

Dark

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 03:08, David Sean Brown wrote:
I agree, though it is a bit different...this isn`t supposed to be a "stat"
from my understanding of the discussion. It would take away a bit from
the overall flavour of the setting, as no longer will the low bloodline
player be likely to rise from obscurity to rule...

With apologies in advance to Doom, the stat idea is not good. I think
that of all the points brought forward, the stat idea now has the least
support.

Anyone can become a regent, but you more than likely have to be born
with good potential to be a Scion classed character. From a player POV
though, it`s the moment of character creation that matters, so all
that`s necessary is a bloodline, however it is acquired.

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 22:37, David Sean Brown wrote:
> One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
> the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
> they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
> number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
> Dark
>
> Is this a problem for fighters? (whose players roll low strength?) etc
> etc
>
> How many priest characters run around with a wisdom of 9?
>
> A player who wants to play a Scion will get a character with a decent
> bloodline.
>
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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> And as for Ryan`s reply to this message relating to tainted wizards:
> in any kind of point-based bloodline system, I always hate that the
> wizard chooses to spend the bare mininum amount required for his
> bloodline, which is why [...] In my campaigns you need a certain
> bloodline strength to take levels in Wizard or Sorcerer (tainted[4],
> minor[8], major[12], great[16]).

I actually agree with you, though sometimes I may try too hard to be all
things to all people. =) I often try to respond to a given message within
the context of whatever I think its author is assuming about the rest of
the rules, but sometimes I`m wrong about that and sometimes I speak
completely based on my own ideal set -- I admit this can be confusing.

What I personally would really like to see happen here is basically the
same thing you would: wizards (and priests, IMO) should all want to get
the highest bloodlines they can. I have suggested in the past that
bloodline score be used to cap the maximum true magic spell level castable
in much the way that Int/Wis/Cha normally do: divide bloodline score by 5
and round up works pretty well for me. This is an additional change to
the basic rules, but I think a good one. To satisfy the objections of
those who say that makes spellcasters` jobs even harder by making an
additional score they have to worry about raising, I respond that I think
high bloodline scores should also give the same kinds of bonuses that high
Int/Wis/Cha do, such as higher DCs and extra spells per day. To regents,
I further grant additional caster levels of spell effect based on their
source or temple levels in the province in question.

However, even though this looks really close to treating bloodline as an
ability score in exactly the way Starfox has just suggested, I myself
would still not call bloodline an ability score: most people don`t have
it; it shouldn`t be raiseable once every four levels, but only through RP
expenditure and bloodtheft; magic items to increase it are sielsheghlien,
which are artifact rarity, not creatable as easily as Gloves of Dex +2;
I like it more finely grained on the domain scale; and I don`t think
bloodline has the same kind of population distribution that ability scores
do (although "ten or less equals zero" does get much closer to it than the
team draft proposal).


Ryan Caveney

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[ConjurerDragon]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:
>
...

>What I personally would really like to see happen here is basically the
>same thing you would: wizards (and priests, IMO) should all want to get
>the highest bloodlines they can. I have suggested in the past that
>bloodline score be used to cap the maximum true magic spell level castable
>in much the way that Int/Wis/Cha normally do: divide bloodline score by 5
>and round up works pretty well for me.
>
If such a rule is used, shouldn´t spell levels 1 and 2 be available for
everyone, as Magicians (unblooded) can also cast them?
So the requirement to have a certain bloodline score would only be
relevant for spells of spelllevel 3+?

If I understood your system (bloodline:5= maximum spelllevel able to
cast) then a Wizard with a bloodline of 5 only could cast level 1
spells? Not level 2 while level 1 and 2 are lesser magic and not true
magic? That seems wrong to me as only a wizard with a bloodline of 15
would be able to cast 3rd level spells and such the first spells which
are really true magic.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> If such a rule is used, shouldn`t spell levels 1 and 2 be available
> for everyone, as Magicians (unblooded) can also cast them?

I personally prefer to think that lesser magic includes *only* illusion
and divination, not those plus all spells below 3rd level. Magicians can
mimic the others with the likes of Shadow Evocation once they reach high
enough level, but I currently feel I`d rather not have them able to cast
true Magic Missile at all -- though perhaps they ought to be allowed such
illusory versions of standard spells even at lower levels. Perhaps, given
the great expansion of cantrips in 3e, it`d be alright to leave magicians
with access to all 0th level spells regardless of school.

But yes, if you accept that magicians can cast all 1st and 2nd level
spells, then the formula for wizards should really be 2 + bloodline / N,
where N is maybe 6 or even 7 instead of 5, given the 2 level offset.

> then a Wizard with a bloodline of 5 only could cast level 1 spells?

With my definition of true vs. lesser magic, yes -- all spells from
illusion and divination, plus 1st level spells from all other schools.
With the standard definition of true vs. lesser, I`d say you`re correct
that such a wizard ought to be (one level) better than magicians, namely
able to cast all illusions and divinations, plus all other spells through
third level rather than second. In either version of this system, such a
low bloodline makes the wizard only slightly different from a magician.


Ryan Caveney

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[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Shade wrote:
> >Personally I think it should stay Charisma modifier. Charisma is already
> an underpowered ability score and it would help balance it atleast in BR.
>
> Charisma is underpowered?! Charisma is the most powerful ability score.. it
> is the only one that (with the proper prestige classes) factors into
> spellcasting, turning undead, initiative, armor class, damage, and saving
> throws in addition to being the prime roleplaying/leadership stat.

So if you multiclass out in full munchkin mode, you can get modifiers to
other things? Min/maxers can break any system; that doesn`t mean charisma
is overpowered, it means you should disallow the broken stuff they try.
In particular, in this case, prestige classes. And then hit them with a
stick if they complain. You can`t design everything around how some
powergaming loser might abuse it, you`ll never get anything done.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Shade]

You can`t design everything around how some
>powergaming loser might abuse it, you`ll never get anything done.

Wow, and you called ME condescending in your other post...

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> > You can`t design everything around how some
> > powergaming loser might abuse it, you`ll never get anything done.
>
> Wow, and you called ME condescending in your other post...
>

I think you are overreacting here. He is not calling YOU a powergaming
loser - merely deridling your concearns over such players. Deridling
another`s argument is not so bad - it is when we start deridling each other
that we thread on thin ice.

/Carl

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[Shade]

Fair enough. No offense taken, anymore. :)