When Are We Going To Hear Something New???

[Sarelth]

It has been a long time since the Playtest came out, are we going to see a newer version or a full product anytime soon? I am very curious as I loved the Playtest version and would love an updated one that touched upon any of the improvements that have surely been though up since january.

Thanks for any info that you can release.

[irdeggman]

If you've been paying attention to ongoing discussion of revising the blood score - then you can see that portion of Chap 2 is in a "holding" pattern until some clearer concensus is reached as to how to proceed. There is a current poll with the 4 proposals included.

As far as revising the BRCS, we've been wating for 3.5 to come out so that we can fully digest its information and see what can be done with it. I still haven't received my copies yet so I can only go by what I've read.

IMO sometime this fall is when I would expect the "next" step in the BRCS to be issued for review. Sorry but I can't give any dates since the entirety of the revision is unknown at this time. There are several areas that specifically have caused a lot of comments - the magician class, the RP collection method and of course the blood score.

[Eosin the Red]

am running a PBEM and have come across some problems with Ilien. The realm cannot suppot itself but the rules.



Are there any proposed work arounds? and has this topic been broached before?



Eosin the Red





>

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> If you`ve been paying attention to ongoing discussion of revising the blood score - then you can see that portion of Chap 2 is in a "holding" pattern until some clearer concensus is reached as to how to proceed. There is a current poll with the 4 proposals included.

>

> As far as revising the BRCS, we`ve been wating for 3.5 to come out so that we can fully digest its information and see what can be done with it. I still haven`t received my copies yet so I can only go by what I`ve read.

>

> IMO sometime this fall is when I would expect the "next" step in the BRCS to be issued for review. Sorry but I can`t give any dates since the entirety of the revision is unknown at this time. There are several areas that specifically have caused a lot of comments - the magician class, the RP collection method and of course the blood score.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[DanMcSorley]

Eosin the Red wrote:

> I am running a PBEM and have come across some problems with Ilien. The

> realm cannot suppot itself but the rules.

>

> Are there any proposed work arounds? and has this topic been broached before?



How so? They should be pulling in 7 GB a turn at medium taxation, plus a

couple more from law claims. That`s more than Ilien was making under the

old rules, I believe. There`s actually less upkeep than there was before,

because holdings and provinces don`t force an upkeep cost under the new

rules. Could you give some more specifics?



--

Daniel McSorley

[Sarelth]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jul 24 2003, 09:58 AM
If you've been paying attention to ongoing discussion of revising the blood score - then you can see that portion of Chap 2 is in a "holding" pattern until some clearer concensus is reached as to how to proceed. There is a current poll with the 4 proposals included.

As far as revising the BRCS, we've been wating for 3.5 to come out so that we can fully digest its information and see what can be done with it. I still haven't received my copies yet so I can only go by what I've read.

IMO sometime this fall is when I would expect the "next" step in the BRCS to be issued for review. Sorry but I can't give any dates since the entirety of the revision is unknown at this time. There are several areas that specifically have caused a lot of comments - the magician class, the RP collection method and of course the blood score.
Thanks for the info, it is as helpful as it could be. It is good to know that the target is autumn, I just like having a little more tangible release date info than "When we are damn well ready!" I agree that the digestion of the 3.5 is important, as some class features have changed as have races and a few other details.

I wish everyone luck on their projects and hope to see a finished, or close to, product sometime this fall. :)

Keep up the good work.

[Eosin the Red]

.7 GB

The province is a level seven so it requires a level 7 court = 7 GB

Seaport 0.5

Road = 0.2 GB



Total = 12.4



Naval Rules list them with some ships?

IMO they should have 1 unit of Infantry.

Once could see justification for a shipyard -



Income 10.3 (IIRC) and then 1.5 GB in Trade Routes.



Total 11.8



The bare minimum income I see being acceptable is 6 GB more than the maintiance - we could discuss the relative merits or lack of merits of such but without this they don`t need a court cause they can`t afford actions. :)



I pawned off the seaport and road to El-Hadid (dubious, I know). The RoE notes Ilien for its "light" taxes.

Otherwise I am stuck?



Thanks Randy (Eosin)







> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Eosin the Red wrote:

> > I am running a PBEM and have come across some problems with Ilien. The

> > realm cannot suppot itself but the rules.

> >

> > Are there any proposed work arounds? and has this topic been broached before?

>

> How so? They should be pulling in 7 GB a turn at medium taxation, plus a

> couple more from law claims. That`s more than Ilien was making under the

> old rules, I believe. There`s actually less upkeep than there was before,

> because holdings and provinces don`t force an upkeep cost under the new

> rules. Could you give some more specifics?

>

> --

> Daniel McSorley

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Sarelth@Jul 24 2003, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the info, it is as helpful as it could be. It is good to know that the target is autumn, I just like having a little more tangible release date info than "When we are damn well ready!" I agree that the digestion of the 3.5 is important, as some class features have changed as have races and a few other details.

I sort of resent the "When we are damn ready" add-on to my response. This was not to be inferred in my response and I personnaly find it insulting. If that is how you see things, I'm sorry for you. I consistently try to be civil even when I am being slammed.

There have been many personnel issues with the BRCS team over the past year and a half. Some came, did a little and vanished, some had pressing "real world" issues to deal with and had to adjust their priorities. It is not an easy task keeping a group of people "focused" for so long and there has been some decompression necessary.

I apologize if I offended you (or any others reading) with the "if you've been paying attention. . ." comment. All I meant was that there has been an ongoing discussion and various polls on this issue so you (and others) wouldn't think that "nothing" was happening.

Something else to remember that "finished" is not something that the BRCS was supposed to be, nor will the next revision probably be. In order to be "official" some sort of consensus is needed from the board members (and mailing list group, if we can somehow get a method to quantify their opinions).

[Sarelth]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Jul 24 2003, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Jul 24 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Sarelth@Jul 24 2003, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the info, it is as helpful as it could be. It is good to know that the target is autumn, I just like having a little more tangible release date info than "When we are damn well ready&#33;" I agree that the digestion of the 3.5 is important, as some class features have changed as have races and a few other details.

I sort of resent the "When we are damn ready" add-on to my response. This was not to be inferred in my response and I personnaly find it insulting. If that is how you see things, I&#39;m sorry for you. I consistently try to be civil even when I am being slammed.

There have been many personnel issues with the BRCS team over the past year and a half. Some came, did a little and vanished, some had pressing "real world" issues to deal with and had to adjust their priorities. It is not an easy task keeping a group of people "focused" for so long and there has been some decompression necessary.

I apologize if I offended you (or any others reading) with the "if you&#39;ve been paying attention. . ." comment. All I meant was that there has been an ongoing discussion and various polls on this issue so you (and others) wouldn&#39;t think that "nothing" was happening.

Something else to remember that "finished" is not something that the BRCS was supposed to be, nor will the next revision probably be. In order to be "official" some sort of consensus is needed from the board members (and mailing list group, if we can somehow get a method to quantify their opinions). [/b][/quote]
First let me say, I was not infering that you meant that in the least. Though if that is how you wish to recieve it, be my guest. I did not mean to be insulting however.

Some sites that I have frequented have a policy of not telling you anything till they feel like it. I find most people would like to have a clue as to when they can hope to expect something. I was just trying to get a little info so that I knew when a product could be hopefully expected.

Again I say sorry if my terminalogy insulted you. It was not my intention.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Eosin the Red@Jul 24 2003, 04:20 PM
.7 GB

The province is a level seven so it requires a level 7 court = 7 GB

Seaport 0.5

Road = 0.2 GB



Total = 12.4



Naval Rules list them with some ships?

IMO they should have 1 unit of Infantry.

Once could see justification for a shipyard -



Income 10.3 (IIRC) and then 1.5 GB in Trade Routes.



Total 11.8



The bare minimum income I see being acceptable is 6 GB more than the maintiance - we could discuss the relative merits or lack of merits of such but without this they don`t need a court cause they can`t afford actions. :)



Thanks Randy (Eosin)


There has been serious discussion about the severity of maintenance costs, specifically Ilien was mentioned. I can&#39;t recall the specific outcome of the discussion, but the "team" has done some discussion on how to streamline the maintenance costs so that this isn&#39;t a problem.

This wasn&#39;t my area of responsibility, I believe it was Jan&#39;s (Mark_Aurel), and he actually had a preliminary proposal discussed by the team. I don&#39;t believe anything was "finalized" to the point of presenting it for discussion to the general net/mailing list group though - it was still too rough.

This type of question is tough to handle since it doesn&#39;t revolve around a simple errata type of answer but rather a revision of the original proposal. I&#39;ll see if I can find Jan&#39;s proposal and post it as a "possibility", I would rather not call it anything but that yet. Piece mealing a revision is just a real poor way of doing things.

[irdeggman]

Eosin the Red (Randy)

I found Jan&#39;s proposals on maintenance costs and here they are. I hope that you can get a "work around" out of it. Something I&#39;d add though is that shipyards count as holdings just as seaports do. I work at a naval shipyard and know how expensive they are to maintain. The skill necesary to build ships don&#39;t really translate well into other trades. They do somewhat but the tradesman will not be able to build ships as well if they are too far removed from that skill.

p. 90 Table 5-4: Asset maintenance costs – strike maintenance/season. These costs no longer apply. Build cost remains the same.

p. 90-91 Constructions. Entries for Fortifications and Shipyards. Fortifications (Province): Add a final sentence: “Creating fortifications with levels above the province level costs twice as much for the levels that exceed the province level for instance, a fortification (7) in a province (4) would cost 80 GB; 32 GB for the first four levels and 48 for the remaining three.” Fortifications (Holding): Add a final sentence: “As with province fortifications, fortification levels exceeding the province level costs twice as much.” Shipyards: Strike the third sentence. Replace with “Creating a shipyard with a level higher than the province level costs twice the amount for levels above the province level.”


Domain Maintenance Costs
The administrative costs of maintaining a domain covers the standard expenses that a regent is expected to meet, such as payrolls, maintaining buildings, roads, and other general-purpose domain costs. This is all rolled into the domain maintenance total. For every three full provinces or holdings a domain consists of (regardless of the level of said holding or province), the maintenance cost is 1 GB per season. A few other domain components beyond provinces and holdings may count as such for domain-level purposes. A fortification, palace, or seaport is each counted as an additional holding for domain maintenance purposes, as is an embassy or a spy network.


I hope this helps, it is not an revision to the BRCS but it might be something that you can use until it is revised.

-Duane

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Sarelth@Jul 24 2003, 04:38 PM

First let me say, I was not infering that you meant that in the least. Though if that is how you wish to recieve it, be my guest. I did not mean to be insulting however.

Some sites that I have frequented have a policy of not telling you anything till they feel like it. I find most people would like to have a clue as to when they can hope to expect something. I was just trying to get a little info so that I knew when a product could be hopefully expected.

Again I say sorry if my terminalogy insulted you. It was not my intention.
Let me say that your original comment struck too close to a tender subject and similarly appearing wording just prior to the BRCS was released.

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...=ST&f=33&t=1115 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=1115)

Then there was the whole Ecliptic issues - some may remember that time period (sorry I don&#39;t have the thread link ready, but if you search you can find it under the playtest comments topic).

If you say you meant no offense then I will take none. :D We haven&#39;t abandoned the project.

[Eosin the Red]

I will see what I can do with it.



Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:02 PM

Subject: Re: When Are We Going To Hear Something New??? [36#1823]





> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> Eosin the Red (Randy)

>

> I found Jan`s proposals on maintenance costs and here they are. I hope

that you can get a "work around" out of it. Something I`d add

though is that shipyards count as holdings just as seaports do. I work at a

naval shipyard and know how expensive they are to maintain. The skill

necesary to build ships don`t really translate well into other trades. They

do somewhat but the tradesman will not be able to build ships as well if

they are too far removed from that skill.

>

> p. 90 Table 5-4: Asset maintenance costs - strike maintenance/season.

These costs no longer apply. Build cost remains the same.

>

> p. 90-91 Constructions. Entries for Fortifications and Shipyards.

Fortifications (Province): Add a final sentence: "Creating fortifications

with levels above the province level costs twice as much for the levels that

exceed the province level for instance, a fortification (7) in a province

(4) would cost 80 GB; 32 GB for the first four levels and 48 for the

remaining three." Fortifications (Holding): Add a final sentence: "As with

province fortifications, fortification levels exceeding the province level

costs twice as much." Shipyards: Strike the third sentence. Replace with

"Creating a shipyard with a level higher than the province level costs twice

the amount for levels above the province level."

>

>

> Domain Maintenance Costs

> The administrative costs of maintaining a domain covers the standard

expenses that a regent is expected to meet, such as payrolls, maintaining

buildings, roads, and other general-purpose domain costs. This is all rolled

into the domain maintenance total. For every three full provinces or

holdings a domain consists of (regardless of the level of said holding or

province), the maintenance cost is 1 GB per season. A few other domain

components beyond provinces and holdings may count as such for domain-level

purposes. A fortification, palace, or seaport is each counted as an

additional holding for domain maintenance purposes, as is an embassy or a

spy network.

>

>

> I hope this helps, it is not an revision to the BRCS but it might be

something that you can use until it is revised.

>

> -Duane

>

>



>

> Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

>

>

[UncleHyena]

Eosin:

I don&#39;t have RoE handy, or the Illien sourcebook, but a certain amount of tweaking should be expected anyway to get into line with the 3rd Ed rules.

Off hand, I would think that a palace would cut costs: A level four court operating out of a level three palace would have an effective rating of seven, and only cost 5.5 in upkeep.

Also, unifying the Guilt holding would increase the value of the trade route to 3.5, and make possible a total of three trade routes, for a possible total income of 10.5 right there.

Illien should be able to generate: 7 GB (province) plus 2 1/3 GB (Law) plus 4 2/3 GB (Temple) plus 4 2/3 GB (Guild) plus 10.5 GB (three trade routes). That&#39;s 29 1/6 GB for a fully unified, maximum production level 7/0 province. Obviously, Illien COULD be self supporting, but that doesn&#39;t make it so.

Uncle Hyena

[Osprey]

To Eosin the Red, concerning Ilien and maintenance:
Ilien IS a problem for supporting itself, especially given its expectations as the largest city on the southern coast (east of the Imperial City, anyways). One would expect it to have a good court (not for its own benefit so much as for the prestige of hosting diplomatic talks, balls, festivals, etc.), a seaport, highways, and shipyards. For one things, it&#39;s the only place developed enough to build galleons with a level 7 shipyard (and that&#39;s only by stretching the rules a bit; a 15GB galleon requires a shipyard of Level 7.5...so round down, it could be done). If that&#39;s not an issue, drop the shipyards to level 3 (big enough to build caravels). As for seaports and highways - the Guilds could easily cover those costs.
In my own campiagns, I see Ilien as a county that is barely scraping by. They&#39;re small and neutral, depending on diplomacy and goodwill from their neighbors to survive. Not a major player, unless they pull off some good mutual benefits. Rogr Aglondier, for example, could certainly ask for some gold from neighboring regents in exchange for his services as a source regent. And then there&#39;s tribute from El-Hadid and the temples of Ilien, as well as fees for his hosting of diplomatic talks and what not. In short, a creative and/or savvy regent of Ilien could think of a few ways to squeeze a few gold bars from other regents to supplement his low profits.
On the other hand, low taxes in such a situation are a joke. High taxes are far more realistic, and being such a major metropolis, is that really unreasonable, even for a good regent?
Expenses are expenses, and I don&#39;t think the maintenance rules should be dropped because of a single case of low profit. It&#39;s just Ilien&#39;s particular challenge, and an interesting one if you ask me.
Hope these ideas help.
-Osprey