Bloodline Abilities

[Osprey]

So here's a big question:
Do the ECL adjustments for Major/Great scions really balance out if the character is a non-regent scion? I love the concept of playing an adventuring scion without any realm to rule, but it seems that many of the bloodline abilities are few and weak compared to the advantages of other templates. For example, compare the abilities of a 1/2-celestial or 1/2-fiend to the powers of a Great scion. Both are +2 ECL, but the 1/2-celestial gets SO much more! Do the number and intensity of the Bloodline powers really justify the ECL adjustment? The average blooded scion might get 1 of each power available, occasionally 2. How potent is this, really? It seems the real power of being blooded is in Regency, and Blooded Regents DO justify the ECL adjustment. Any thoughts?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jul 25 2003, 03:13 PM
So here's a big question:
Do the ECL adjustments for Major/Great scions really balance out if the character is a non-regent scion? I love the concept of playing an adventuring scion without any realm to rule, but it seems that many of the bloodline abilities are few and weak compared to the advantages of other templates. For example, compare the abilities of a 1/2-celestial or 1/2-fiend to the powers of a Great scion. Both are +2 ECL, but the 1/2-celestial gets SO much more! Do the number and intensity of the Bloodline powers really justify the ECL adjustment? The average blooded scion might get 1 of each power available, occasionally 2. How potent is this, really? It seems the real power of being blooded is in Regency, and Blooded Regents DO justify the ECL adjustment. Any thoughts?
The answer is no, except for certain abilities like regeneration or invulnerability and some of the "more" powerful major abilities.

The ECLs were based on a combination of the following:

Blood abilites
Bonus hit points (only available to regents)
Increased starting equipment

The combination of these three give an equivalent ECL adjustment, where any one taken by itself would probably not.

This is one of the tremendous advantages of using scion class levels to equate the ECL modifiers. Using Savage Species as an example this will allow an ECL'd character to be utilized in a 1st level party, otherwise the 3.0 rules don't really allow it (see DMG section under ECL'd races). Also taking the scion class level is optional for a scion, if he doesn't take it he doesn't gain the "extra" benefits it grants and if he does take a level then he gains an equivalent ECL adjustment.

[Osprey]

Forgive my ignorance (not real familiar with Savage Species yet), but what do Scion class levels mean? Waht do they grant?
-Osprey

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jul 26 2003, 01:24 PM
Forgive my ignorance (not real familiar with Savage Species yet), but what do Scion class levels mean? Waht do they grant?
-Osprey
If you look over the Proposals for blood score you can get a better idea of what happens.

Basically they are 5 levels of scion class which correspond the ECL levels that the templates would have given. The difference between the two is that the class grants advancement in hit die and other standard class abilities, BAB, saving throws. They also grant various class specific abilities - depending on what version you use. These include the bonus hit points for a regent, bonus to the blood score, access to major and great blood abilities, etc. But in order to gain these the requisite number of scion class levels must be taken.

What this allows, is for an ECL'd character to play in a first level campaign. The character would be a 1st level scion while someone else's character could be a 1st level fighter. The use of an ECL at first level is contrary to the DMG (3.0 version) {see the section under ECL's races for a little more detail}.

Savage Species did a pretty good job of breaking the reasoning and mechanic of this process down for relatively easy adapatation. It was also 3.5 forward compatable.

Does this help any?

[UncleHyena]

I still really don't see the problem with the Bloodline rules as given in the current playtest document. A character who wants to be a blooded non-regent can just take the "Minor" template, and actually be ahead of the game (7x8 plus 32 points is almost equal to 7 best 3 of 4 rolls; 6x8 plus 24 is slightly worse). Use your blood score as a place to sink your worst roll, and figure you will build up your score by bloodtheft. That IS what playing a blooded non-regent is all about, isn't it?

I suppose I should admit that I came at this backward; I was in the middle of a career change, and broke, when Birthright came out, and the very first Birthright material I ever read was the 3rd Ed playtest rules. I have since gone back and bought most of the original material, and honestly prefer the 3rd Ed version at every point.

The simplest mechanic to solving the ECL issue for those wanting to play major or great bloodlines is one simple addendum: "Contrary to the general rule stated in the DMG, it is perfectly acceptable for character with the Major or Great template to play in a first level campaign. Such a character will suffer a significant experience penalty in complensation for his additional abilities, but will otherwise be perfectly viable."

Uncle Hyena

[Osprey]

The simplest mechanic to solving the ECL issue for those wanting to play major or great bloodlines is one simple addendum: "Contrary to the general rule stated in the DMG, it is perfectly acceptable for character with the Major or Great template to play in a first level campaign. Such a character will suffer a significant experience penalty in complensation for his additional abilities, but will otherwise be perfectly viable."

Such a character would always be a level or two behind, which is a pretty significant handicap. The original question was: "Do the bloodline powers compensate for that handicap?" My feeling was that they aren't equal to the class abilities, hit points, feats, etc. that a higher level character has, and a non-regent scion doesn't get bonus hit points, either. As for starting equipment, well...that's more of a DM call, since not all blooded characters are born to families with valuable heirlooms.
The only exception to this (in my mind) are the Great powers like Regeneration, Divine Wrath, Invulnerability, etc, all of which are inaccessible to everyone except those with True or Great Heritage bloodlines (which are supposed to be extremely rare, and add +3 ECL's or more! Oh yeah, you could always become an inhuman monster woth Bloodtrait/Bloodform if you want those abilities...not my favorite version of a playable PC.
-Osprey

[Osprey]

Ah...finally got access to the blood ability propositions, including the stats for scion levels. I like the ideas a lot, and think they make for a fair compensation by adding a few skills and hit points, in addition to the blood abilities, of course.

[RaspK_FOG]

Well, the class proposal is interesting, but there seems to be an error: at level 4th, a scion retains a +2 base attack bonus, while it should be +3! If he advances in BAB according to the "Average" listing anyway (HD*3/4, rounded down), like bards, clerics, etc.

[Mark_Aurel]

Check the hit dice and compare with the base attack value - the BAB is based on HD, not absolute level. IIRC, the scion classes contain an inherent level adjustment (not all the levels advance you in HD, BAB, saves and skills, in other words).

[irdeggman]

And this is consistent with the way that Savage Species handled it, not all levels gave a HD increase (and hence a BAB increase). This is normally balanced by granting "other" abilities to even things out.

[RaspK_FOG]

Oh... OK, I suppose I did not figure this out, since I have not yet read Savage Species. Gotta do that sometime...

[RaspK_FOG]

Well, I just figured out what is the difference now! I was referring to the scion class of option A, not yours, Mark. Yours, I understood rightaway, the other has the error. Otherwise it should also get no increase in the base saves too!