Dexterity vs. Strength for To-Hit bonus.

[Lawgiver]

I have often disliked that the only way for a PC to gain a To-Hit Bonus from ability scores is to pump up their strength score. What about a bonus (other than with missle weapons) for an agile and quick character?


For instance, Drizzt Dourden from the R.A. Salvatore novels (excellent reading by the way!). If you did away with levels, based solely on ability scores Wulfgar has a better chance of hitting Drizzt than Drizzt has in hitting Wulfgar simply because of brute Strength. Hardly fair in my opinion...

I thought about simply offering the missile bonus to melee attacks as well, but what happens if a PC has an 18 Str. and 17 Dex. ... somebody is going to die at their hands rather quickly.

[Lord Eldred]

You could give whichever bonus was largest but not both!

[Riegan Swordwraith]

But Wulfgar's chances to hit Drizz't are lowered because of how quick Drizz't is.Despite popular beleif,Strength is more important than Dexterity in determining your chances to hit.I personally have a hand-and-a-half sword,and let me tell you I get a workout when I work that thing,and it only weighs about 4 and 1/2 lbs.When you wield that monster,you feel it all through your upper-back,shoulders,all the way down to your wrists.That is strength,not agility.Certain weapons were designed in history,that were to take advantage of one's quickness(Epee and Rapier).But these weapons only came into favor after the widespread use of firearms and the disappearance of heavy armors.

[Lord Eldred]

Would you agree then that for those weapons you would get a dexterity bonus, Riegan?

[Lawgiver]

I agree that Str. is need more than Dex. when cutting through armor. But if you are faster you can hit the weak spots and get through the wholes in one's defense.
But to me the only reason strength would make it easier to hit would be one's inability to parry crushing blows. Drizzt dodges Wulfgar more than parrys. It hurts even to parry a strong blow.

[Lord Eldred]

You would think that Dexterity has some role to play in fighting...I still say you could get the higher bonus from dexterity or strength.

It makes sense while I am dodging the blow I am good at getting by the defenses by my agility and not my strength. Where is my bonus for that?

[Lawgiver]

I have a solution for thre RPG I have created 'Warriors of Virtue' (which is still way in the early stages of development.... there is no easy way to convert it to D&D though because of the difference in skills, attributes, and the combat sequence.

The best thing I can come up with for D&D is too use a combination of both. Give the PC the full bonus To-Hit for Dex to all weapons. Give the bonus for Str. if the opponent has a lesser Str. (i.e. a character with 17 Str. gets a +1 to hit against an opponent with 15 Str., but gets no bonus against an opponent with 18 Str.) If both opponents have a Str. bonus, the one with the highest bonus gets to use the difference between bonuses. If they are equal Str. neither gets a bonus. Thus your To Hit bonus for strength is only beneficial when you overpower your opponent. Does that make sense?

Probs with this system:
1. Pcs with high Dex and Str have high modifiers.
2. You don't always have a Str or Dex score for opponents to be able to calculate the modifier. (easily fixed if you make the GM think and make a quick ruling)

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Yes Lord Eldred I would indeed say that by using such weapons you would get to use your Dex rather than Str bonus.

Lawgiver,if you are relying on speed to make a strike on an opponents"weak" spot,and he is wearing heavy armor,you won't be doing much damage to him,at least in reality.Case in point,the Crusaders.Even in 110+ degrre temps,the Franks still wore 30lbs of metal in the form of their chain hauberks.Why??Because the light scimitars preferred by their enemies was GREATLY reduced in effectiveness by the Crusaders armor.

But no matter how you do it,only allow one or the other.You will totally screw the game balance if you allow both Str and Dex IMHO.

[Sellenus]

Are you playing 2nd ed or 3rd?

3rd has Weapon Finesse to cover this.

[Strahd]

... however, weapon Finesse is an excellent feat. Moreover, it only applies to weapons that CAN benefit from high dexterity, i.e. dagger, rapier etc. Noone can use his dexterity bonus wo wield a great axe/sword, not even a long sword or a battle axe. And dexterity applies only in the attack, not damage rolls.
I guess that in 2nd ed. spending an additional weapon proficiency slot for a weapon could allow you to attack with you dex. bonus instead of the strenght one.

[Lord Eldred]

Good point Sellenus! End of discussion. ;)

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Strahd
Lawgiver is a second edition fanatic...
... however, weapon Finesse is an excellent feat. Moreover, it only applies to weapons that CAN benefit from high dexterity, i.e. dagger, rapier etc. Noone can use his dexterity bonus wo wield a great axe/sword, not even a long sword or a battle axe. And dexterity applies only in the attack, not damage rolls.
I guess that in 2nd ed. spending an additional weapon proficiency slot for a weapon could allow you to attack with you dex. bonus instead of the strenght one.


I have begun to see the light of 3e... I've got the books now you know... scary things are happening lately...
As Strahd said Weapon finesse is only for select weapons.

Strahd: If you took the extra prof. Would you get both bonuses?


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Good point Sellenus! End of discussion.


Not really since I'm not under the 3e section of threads. I thought a rationale reader would assume 2e...:)

[Sellenus]

Where is the sign designating this a 2nd ed area?

or am I irrational?:)

Oh well, I probably am...

[Arlen Blaede]

I have never had a problem with using deterity to determine a bonus to hit someone. It is however a different manner of fighting all together.

I will also agree that weilding any melee weapon requires that one have a certain minimum of strength. However, dexterity is what determines whether or not that power is applied in the appopriate direction. So taking a proficience (2ed) or using a feat (3ed) makes perfect sense for applying your dexterity modifier on the to-hit.

As to the argument that light weapons don't to much against heavy armors (example of the Crusades) the problem here was that the scimitar weilders had really no previous experience with facing heavy armor. They really didn't know where the weak spots were. That and scimtars are primarily slashing weapons with is what chain was designed to protect against.

With dexterity and lighter weapons it's all about making your shots count. Aim for specific points and wear your opponent out.

[Lord Eldred]

Not really since I'm not under the 3e section of threads. I thought a rationale reader would assume 2e...:)[/quote]

This really isn't either 2e or 3e. It is general talk!