Airships

[Lawgiver]

Several fantasy games (Final Fantasy and Warcraft come to mind) use airships. Has anyone ever used or thought of using such devices in a D&D campaign? Are there already rules fo such items?

[PCyric]

The only thing that comes to my mind right now, was the inventions of the Ansalonian gnomes (the gnomes of Dragonlance). These gnomes were known to be great inventors and have reportedly built flying machines (with varying degrees of success unfortunately). They even managed to raise a whole city in the air, building a kind of a flying mountain if I am not mistaken. I have not heard about flying machines in BR, even though that would change the scope of war in the continent (hmm, good idea!!!).
If there were flying machines in the BR campaign setting, a lot of things would not be the same.;)

[Lord Eldred]

In other campaigns outside of Birthright we have used flying ships. I have had ships that move through land in my campaign. You can see the concept in the last chapter of the Ships of Cerilia Manual posted on this site. Even these ships greatly changed the concept of war except I put in some weaknesses that allowed the PCs to overcome them in battle once they figure it out.

[morgramen]

I've thought about giving some "Sail Barges" (ala Jabba the Hutt) to the ancient and wicked sorceror Adurian realms (as yet unnamed IMC) but haven't gotten past the concept yet.

I like the idea, but am hesitant to so quickly use them in the campaign. Floating ships just doesn't seem overly Birthright to me personally. I definitely wouldn't add an actual "Flying ship" though - that just seems to fantasical for such a magic rare world IMO.

[Lawgiver]

I agree that they aren't exactly Birthright material. I've always thought that airships were a little cheesy. But the thought reoccurred to me the other day and I was curious if anyone actually used them.

[blitzmacher]

I think I would allow them in my game with some restrictions like, they first would need to build a workshop at 5GB per level each level would give a +5% chance of success. Then they would have to Research technology domain action spending 2d4GB to research it and any extra RP or GB's spent add 1% to the success role. If they would succeed at that then they would have a flying machine very similar to a hotair balloon, which would cost as much as knights to create and maintain, and it would have the abilities of a scout unit except that it would have a melee of 0, missile of 1, defense of 1 , and a move of 1. Special defense can only be hit by missile type weapons, and is affected by weather like in the Naval Warfare rules.

[Abbess Allessandra]

Just as Lord Eldred pointed out they were very intriguing to figure out. Of course the bad guys had the ships against us and that made us use our noodles to defeat them. They are quite usable in Birthright once you read the background on them. With all the other wonderful things that were created in BR then why not a ship that moves on land and sea. As I recall they didn't fly, they just hove so to speak.

[Lawgiver]

creating a nonmagical airship is quite a difficult task indeed. On like a hotair balloon of modern technology you do not have the ease of adjusting the air content of the balloon or the altitude. Hot air ballons work by controlling the content of air in their 'ballon'. Most airships as seen in fantasy games function with a ship tied to a sack filled with air held by ropes, powered by a propeller. Much more like a blimp than a hotair ballon.

I actually start rules on them once quite some time ago and planned to have a dwarven engineer/inventor (with a quirky personality--extremely quirky for a dwarf). I may dig them up and actually look into the idea. Though it would be more of a novelty for a few campaign years before becoming a war machine.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Lawgiver,the term for the machine you are refering to is called a derigible.

But a non-magical airship I would have to say is next to impossible in a BR setting unless you allow a few other things,in particular the steam engine.Without the steam power I would have to say that your machine wouldn't be possible without some magical assistance.

But that is just my opinion......

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Riegan Swordwraith Lawgiver,the term for the machine you are refering to is called a derigible.

According to Webster:

blimp - (n.) a nonrigid or semirigid airship

dirigible (n.) an airship; esp., a zeppelin

zeppelin - (n.) any rigid airship: commonly used from 1900 to 1937


blimp = Synonyms: airship, dirigible,


six of one, a half dozen of another. Call it what you like there all virtually the same.

I fully agree that a nonmagical airship would be virtually unfeasible (depending on the technology time period). But as I'm learning--this is fantasy.

[Abbess Allessandra]

As the book indicates they are powered by an artifact furnace not steam. They draw their power from magic. So the fantasy concept is at full force here.

[Lord Eldred]

My Lady, I am not sure anyone is paying attention to you. At least no one has responded directly to you. :(

[Abbess Allessandra]

That's because they don't want to see that I explained how they could be in BR. It seems there are only a few who respond to me. If I could only get them to the UP of H.....

[Lord Eldred]

Well I thought they worked in our Birthright Campaign. We made limitations and there wouldn't be very many of them in any campaign. Oh well maybe someone will start listening to you soon!

[Lawgiver]

I'm sorry I had my BellTone turned off... ;)

I was merely stataing that without magical influence (i.e. the purported artifact furnace) airships would be a mostly unlikely invention indeed. To create them with magic would be quasi-nonBirtright, since the original Birthright rules do not place high influence on magic. I wholeheartedly agree with Eldred that (severe) limitations should be placed on such devises or they will quickly get out of hand.

[Lord Eldred]

There are a limited number of artifurnaces and they need to have an artifact to run. Then there is the whole thing with having to cut down elven trees to make the ships which would surely cause a war!

[Arlen Blaede]

...Bad Elves gone worse. They chop down the trees in their forest to build a fleet of airships with which to destroy all those pesky Humans. Or maybe not.

I have never really liked the idea of airships in a campaign like Birthright. Mostly for no other reason then that it seems a little cheesy. But that's just one man's view.

[Lord Eldred]

Hey, maybe I like cheesy!

[morgramen]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Hey, maybe I like cheesy!

I like cheese too. But not that blue stuff.
:P

[Lord Eldred]

Blue cheese? Yuk! I am not too fond of green either :P

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........Blue Cheese!!!

[Lord Eldred]

Blue cheese is just sick! And if I was forced to eat it on an air ship I would just throw up!

[Mithrandir]

If somemone vomits blue cheese off of an airship, and it hits someone,how much damage does it do!:P

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Blue cheese is just sick! And if I was forced to eat it on an air ship I would just throw up!

I would not, could not on a sea ship! I would not, could not on an airship! It will not, shall not cross my lip!

[Lord Eldred]

I do like blue cheese and am, I do like it Sam I am!

[Temujin]

Should I rename this thread 'Cheeses of Cerilia'??

LOL. :P

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Temujin

Should I rename this thread 'Cheeses of Cerilia'??

LOL. :P

Referring to the thread's content or the posters? :P

[Chioran]

I was contemplating this topic and it seems that a reasonable non-magical airship could be made. Using a light-weight wood for external construction (albeit sacrificing safety for the ability to get off the ground), one could construct the airship in 2 different ways. First, a large prop atop the device creating lift ala a helicopter. This would require the use of "a few" men or a couple of horses, to turn the prop quickly enough to generate the required lift. This could result in significant enough altitude to kill everyone on board when it came crashing down do to exhaustion of those who were powering it. THe second thought is to create the ship around a large cylinder which would house the prop. This prop would be signifcantly large and at even lower rates of speed would create an air cushion beneath the ship, along which it could ride. You could employ a sail to drive it, use horses to pull it (no friction means faster rates of speed), or props on the back mounted vertically to create thrust. Both designs are feasible although I like the second best.

Comments?

[Green Knight]

Airships in Cerilia? Aaaaghhh!!!!! :)

That aside, I know of several worlds that have used airships:
1) Mystara, the old DnD world, had airships. There was even a campaign set released that centered around the explorations of a single airship and its crew.
2) Earthdawn has airships aplenty, as well as elemental-steam-powered-riverboats-run-by-blue-lizards.
3) Eyes of Silver, by Michael Stackpole has a lot to offer, including airships powered by elemental steam and a bunch of mages at the helm. The book is out of print, but if you can get it you won't be disappointed.

[Lord Shaene]

Well since there are no current airships on paper on birthright,
then a possible suggestion could be to have players research and develop one. of course this would take alot of money and time to develop. a great flying ship would prob take 50 to a hundred years to develop, and even then i dont think it would be a great advantage as it would be easily taken down by fireballs or catapults or arrows etc.. but it would be fun to have and to roleplay getting it developed over time.

[Chioran]

It would definitely not take that long Shaene. Your problem is you have no vision.

You are correct when you say that it would be very expensive.

[Lord Shaene]

wait where are my glasses? ah here they are,

what i meant was chioron is that an airship wouldnt take that long to develope but one with air superiority would. you start out simple and work your way up

[Chioran]

well thank you for clarifying what you meant as opposed to what you said.

WHy are you always so concerned with power and superiority. I think that there are advantages is travel with an airship.

I actually have begun design on two such ships. Both will serve to increase rate of travel while making terrain less prohibitive.

Are you interested in a joint venture?

[Lord Shaene]

Of course i am interested in a joint venture

what proposal to you make?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

Of course i am interested in a joint venture

what proposal to you make?


I do not believe that this is the place for this discussion. Let us find some place more secluded.

Wher we can be alone with our words.

<wink><wink> <nudge><nudge> <grin><grin> Say no more.

[Lord Eldred]

Lord Shaene and Lord Chioran, it is too late! I have observed your discussion. The current technology for ships that move over land requires the evil act of cutting down elven forests. Lord Chioran I can't believe you are contemplating such a venture. As for Shaene, I am not surprised since he still has one of those ships docked at his island province.

[Lord Shaene]

how dare you assume we are going to cut down elven forests!

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lord Shaene and Lord Chioran, it is too late! I have observed your discussion. The current technology for ships that move over land requires the evil act of cutting down elven forests. Lord Chioran I can't believe you are contemplating such a venture. As for Shaene, I am not surprised since he still has one of those ships docked at his island province.

Lord ELdred,
My dear boy. You couldn't be more wrong. I leave the soldiering to you, why don't you leave the engineering to me. It is obviously too complex for you.

[Lord Eldred]

Good Luck my friend but in a campaign controlled by me, the only way you will get anything to fly is if you use wood cut down from a Elven forest.

[Abbess Allessandra]

Umm isn't that cheating?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Abbess Allessandra

Umm isn't that cheating?

Me or Lord Hypocr- Eldred?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Good Luck my friend but in a campaign controlled by me, the only way you will get anything to fly is if you use wood cut down from a Elven forest.

Fine Mr Iletthepowergotomyhead, if you want to GM physics right of the world that's fine with me, but fully expect me to take advantage of that fact.

[Lord Eldred]

Lord Chioran I believe she is refering to me. I would have to state that it is not cheating, it is keeping balance in my campaign world. Just like I wouldn't let Xerath to create whatever magic items he wished nor did I let him keep magic items that I didn't know where he got them from. Was it cheating when I had the theives successfully steal them from him without rolling?

[Abbess Allessandra]

Well technically you were balancing the game. He cheated.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lord Chioran I believe she is refering to me. I would have to state that it is not cheating, it is keeping balance in my campaign world. Just like I wouldn't let Xerath to create whatever magic items he wished nor did I let him keep magic items that I didn't know where he got them from. Was it cheating when I had the theives successfully steal them from him without rolling?

I guess I would have to agree with the Abbess on that point, but if you are going to GM physics out of the game then yes you are cheating.

[Lord Eldred]

Hello this is not the real world! Physics has no place in my campaign! Nor real chemistry nor biology! Got it. If I want you to fall up in to a pit then I will and you will just have to like it.

For Haelyns sakes haven't any of you read the early arguments that flying ships have no place in Birthright. Are you going to accuse them of cheating as well because they don't want to allow the physics of it to exist?

[Chioran]

Ok Lord Hypocr- Eldread, have it your way. No physics, no chemistry, no biology (sorry abbess, & shania no kids for you), no psionics (except for mind flayer npcs that you bombard us with).

Just try to stop my elves in Dhoenel from building it. Between my brains and shania's deep pockets we will put you down!

R E S P E C T M Y A U T H O R I T A

[Abbess Allessandra]

The suggestion of cheating came from me not Chioran because of you taking on that tyrant, dictatorship attitude again. You know,"my way or the highway!" And who brought those damn landships in the game anyway?

[Chioran]

Yeah What She Said!

[Lord Eldred]

I never denied being a hypocrite ;)

The land ships are made from elven wood. These ships could be engineered to actually fly. But at a cost!

It sounds like the two of you have been taking lessons from the former Xerath! I want to do this and Lord Eldred won't let me so I am going to cry and whine and complain and think that he is out to get me. The next thing you know you will quit but not quit and then have to get kicked out! :P

By the way if you want to cut down Elven trees that will be your problem Chioran!

[Lord Shaene]

Wow a Storm is brewing here, ill just hop in my land ship and get away

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I never denied being a hypocrite ;)

The land ships are made from elven wood. These ships could be engineered to actually fly. But at a cost!

It sounds like the two of you have been taking lessons from the former Xerath! I want to do this and Lord Eldred won't let me so I am going to cry and whine and complain and think that he is out to get me. The next thing you know you will quit but not quit and then have to get kicked out! :P

By the way if you want to cut down Elven trees that will be your problem Chioran!

Lord El-dreadlocks a lesser person would become annoyed with your consistent misrepresentation of the facts and the fact that you are living in denial. I, however, being a much better (and more humble) person than that only pity you. I fear that your logic and lucidity has fled you thus making you completely unarmed for a battle of wits. Thus, since I am a person of honour (and did I mention humble too) I withdraw from our discussion so you do not appear any more foolish.

[Chioran]

Now, since physics has no place in a fantasy world, what happens when I cast feather fall on a 2-ton boulder falling toward a group of playing children?

Oh wait! I know the answer to this. Nothing! Nothing would happen, because the rock is falling due to gravity, gravity is an aspect of physics and physics does not exist. Therefore gravity does not exist, which means that the rock could not fall. Not only that but the children wouldn't be there either. Why? Because without gravity we have no atmosphere. No atmosphere means no people.

Excellent!

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Chioran

Now, since physics has no place in a fantasy world, what happens when I cast feather fall on a 2-ton boulder falling toward a group of playing children?

Oh wait! I know the answer to this. Nothing! Nothing would happen, because the rock is falling due to gravity, gravity is an aspect of physics and physics does not exist. Therefore gravity does not exist, which means that the rock could not fall. Not only that but the children wouldn't be there either. Why? Because without gravity we have no atmosphere. No atmosphere means no people.

Excellent!

Chioran, I suggest you read your own post very carefully and you will see what you have helped me win my argument on the normal rule of physics does not exist in Birthright and many other fantasy worlds for that matter!

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

Wow a Storm is brewing here, ill just hop in my land ship and get away

Typical Lord Shaene when the going gets tough, the wimp gets going (away to anywhere the going is not tough)!

Lord Chioran, you don't mind that Lord Shaene is using a land ship made from elven wood?

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Chioran


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I never denied being a hypocrite ;)

The land ships are made from elven wood. These ships could be engineered to actually fly. But at a cost!

It sounds like the two of you have been taking lessons from the former Xerath! I want to do this and Lord Eldred won't let me so I am going to cry and whine and complain and think that he is out to get me. The next thing you know you will quit but not quit and then have to get kicked out! :P

By the way if you want to cut down Elven trees that will be your problem Chioran!

Lord El-dreadlocks a lesser person would become annoyed with your consistent misrepresentation of the facts and the fact that you are living in denial. I, however, being a much better (and more humble) person than that only pity you. I fear that your logic and lucidity has fled you thus making you completely unarmed for a battle of wits. Thus, since I am a person of honour (and did I mention humble too) I withdraw from our discussion so you do not appear any more foolish.

A lesser person starts making fun of people's names! Lord Key or In :P The fact that you claim you are humble means you are not! I never claimed to have logic or lucidity! AND I MUST ASK "Who is more fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool?"

P.S. I hope we are still just joking around and this really hasn't become personal

[Chioran]

I can't believe you had to ask that Lord Eldred. Would I be calling you Dreadlocks if I was miffed?

[Chioran]

I fail to see how my analysis of the physics situation proves your point. If what you are saying is that there is no physics because it is a fantasy world then fine I agree with that statement.

If that is the basis of your argument then please state that it is.

[Lawgiver]

The problem isn't a matter of size its a matter of weight ratios... :)

[IF you want to bring 'physics' into it how about this one:]
The darned oak that comes from the trees in the human realms is too young (due to deforestation and regrowth). It like the hearts of men is too heavy to build a light airship. Much like elves can pass through a region without leaving a trace due to their light hearted steps... the wood of elven forests is strong and sturdy yet is much lighter than the woods from human realms.

Additionally, it doesn't have the same level of mebhaigl imbued in it as the wood of the elven forests that would be needed to get such a beast of a vehicle off the ground.

[Lord Eldred]

Thank you for coming to my defense Lawgiver. Tell these gentleman that airships without many checks would cause a great unbalance in the Birthright world. The landships in my campaign were greatly numbered and had an Achilles heal.

Chioran, my argument is that if physics were totally in play you wouldn't be able to cast feather fall because that would defy the laws of physics. However, physics is defiable in the Birthright world thus I can make rules that say your airships can not exist without the use of the Elven wood!

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

The problem isn't a matter of size its a matter of weight ratios... :)

[IF you want to bring 'physics' into it how about this one:]
The darned oak that comes from the trees in the human realms is too young (due to deforestation and regrowth). It like the hearts of men is too heavy to build a light airship. Much like elves can pass through a region without leaving a trace due to their light hearted steps... the wood of elven forests is strong and sturdy yet is much lighter than the woods from human realms.

Additionally, it doesn't have the same level of mebhaigl imbued in it as the wood of the elven forests that would be needed to get such a beast of a vehicle off the ground.


L. G. while I appreciate your analysis of the situation I submit that you have no understnading of what my plans are. All the points you made are irrelevant. I have no intention of using oak and I am not relying on any type of magic whatsoever. My plan utilizes a lighter wood and is completely possible within the boundaries of physics.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Thank you for coming to my defense Lawgiver. Tell these gentleman that airships without many checks would cause a great unbalance in the Birthright world. The landships in my campaign were greatly numbered and had an Achilles heal.

Chioran, my argument is that if physics were totally in play you wouldn't be able to cast feather fall because that would defy the laws of physics. However, physics is defiable in the Birthright world thus I can make rules that say your airships can not exist without the use of the Elven wood!

Lor Eldred,

Once again you are mistaken and are making flawed statements. Physics is totally in play! There are just things in the world (magic) which allow us to manipulate certain things in the physical world. If you are saying that you are going to employ some type of magic to prevent my ship from gaiing altitude then that is fine, have it your way.

[Lord Shaene]

See i knew a Storm was coming, Only a fool would stand in the middle of a storm rather then seek shelter.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

See i knew a Storm was coming, Only a fool would stand in the middle of a storm rather then seek shelter.

Which causes me to ask why you have sought shelter?:P

[Lord Eldred]

The physics in Birthright make it so only Elven wood will provide a light enough wood to get off the ground! ;)

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

The physics in Birthright make it so only Elven wood will provide a light enough wood to get off the ground! ;)

<BITING SARCASM>Oh Lord Eldred, I bow to your infinite wisdom. You are truly one of the great thinkers of our time. </BITING SARCASM>

As the conversation has degraded to a level of "because I am the DM and I said so" I retire from this thread.

So there! Neenar Neenar

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Chioran

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene
See i knew a Storm was coming, Only a fool would stand in the middle of a storm rather then seek shelter.

Which causes me to ask why you have sought shelter?:P
good one Chioran! ;)

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Chioran
L. G. while I appreciate your analysis of the situation I submit that you have no understnading of what my plans are. All the points you made are irrelevant. I have no intention of using oak and I am not relying on any type of magic whatsoever. My plan utilizes a lighter wood and is completely possible within the boundaries of physics.

Just trying to help my boy out. It was two on one and I figured I'd try to even the odds.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Chioran

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
The physics in Birthright make it so only Elven wood will provide a light enough wood to get off the ground! ;)
<BITING SARCASM>Oh Lord Eldred, I bow to your infinite wisdom. You are truly one of the great thinkers of our time. </BITING SARCASM>

As the conversation has degraded to a level of "because I am the DM and I said so" I retire from this thread.
So there! Neenar Neenar

Eldred let the whiney babies have their airship. Just ignore the complaints of the number of die in damage from falling when a balista rips through the derigible and the sack of air screams in a downward spiral like a birthday ballon. Or when the great ship falls from the sky in a burning heap as flaming pitch lands on the deck from a catapult, or the flames of a wizard's fireball engulfs the vessel, or when a storm comes and the threat of lightening and harsh wind wreaks havoc, or when... ;)
[how's that for physics...]

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

Eldred let the whiney babies have their airship. Just ignore the complaints of the number of die in damage from falling when a balista rips through the derigible and the sack of air screams in a downward spiral like a birthday ballon. Or when the great ship falls from the sky in a burning heap as flaming pitch lands on the deck from a catapult, or the flames of a wizard's fireball engulfs the vessel, or when a storm comes and the threat of lightening and harsh wind wreaks havoc, or when... ;)
[how's that for physics...]


Actually birthday balloons usually scream upward first, which would take my airship to heights previously unreached. I'd be famous (or was that infamous?).

[Lord Shaene]

LawGiver I think your post gives credit to chiorans arguement, our dm should allow attempts at airships being built, not just say no and make bad arguements as to why just because he doesnt want them. let us try in vain if we must but let us at least try. if it burns and falls in game well then thats fine. but at least we are able to roleplay it out. and maybe just maybe we will hit on something that will make the dm change his mind on how he feels about airships in the meantime. that is what i feel chioran's point was, not so much that fact that he cant build an airship

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

LawGiver I think your post gives credit to chiorons arguement, our dm should allow attempts at airships being built, not just say no and make bad arguements as to why just because he doesnt want them. let us try in vain if we must but let us at least try. if it burns and falls in game well then thats fine. but at least we are able to roleplay it out. and maybe just maybe we will hit on something that will make the dm change his mind on how he feels about airships in the meantime. that is what i feel chioran's point was, not so much that fact that he cant build an airship



OMG Shaene spelled my name right!! Twice even! Woo Hoo! :P :P :P

[Lord Shaene]

well at least i got it right at the end of the paragraph, ill go back and edit the first part hehe

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene
LawGiver I think your post gives credit to chiorans arguement, our dm should allow attempts at airships being built, not just say no and make bad arguements as to why just because he doesnt want them. let us try in vain if we must but let us at least try. if it burns and falls in game well then thats fine. but at least we are able to roleplay it out. and maybe just maybe we will hit on something that will make the dm change his mind on how he feels about airships in the meantime. that is what i feel chioran's point was, not so much that fact that he cant build an airship


Overall I actually agree that if you two can come up with a descent attempt at an airship you should at least have the chance to crash and burn. (I wouldn't even require the elven wood... though it may have a higher DC without it) I just had to help LE out a little. I'm all for giving PCs a method to go broke...er, invest their money. :P

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

Overall I actually agree that if you two can come up with a descent attempt at an airship you should at least have the chance to crash and burn. (I wouldn't even require the elven wood... though it may have a higher DC without it) I just had to help LE out a little. I'm all for giving PCs a method to go broke...er, invest their money. :P

And cause themselves great bodily harm in the process, eh?;)

[Lord Shaene]

Bodily harm? oh hehe you mean to the peon who has to try and fly it?. for a second there i thought you were thinking we would test it ourselves

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

Bodily harm? oh hehe you mean to the peon who has to try and fly it?. for a second there i thought you were thinking we would test it ourselves

Perish the thought my dear boy. That responsibility will fall to our well paid apprentices.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

I agree that they aren't exactly Birthright material. I've always thought that airships were a little cheesy. But the thought reoccurred to me the other day and I was curious if anyone actually used them.

Lawgiver actually agreed that Airships are not Birthright material. Now I could let you try and you could have people suffer the consequences like Lawgiver suggest or I could give you the advance warning so that you don't waste your time. You can role play anything you want but in the end I get to decide what happens. If you would like to create a campaign world and everyone wants to play in it, I would gladly give up being the DM so that I can just be a player.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Now I could let you try and you could have people suffer the consequences like Lawgiver suggest or I could give you the advance warning so that you don't waste your time.

But then what fun would that be.


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
You can role play anything you want but in the end I get to decide what happens. If you would like to create a campaign world and everyone wants to play in it, I would gladly give up being the DM so that I can just be a player.
Hmmmm, nope too dangerous. :P

[Lord Eldred]

I had a feeling that would be your answer.

[DARKSISTER]

In Campiagns past I have allowed and used Airships. or Skyships. I myself had one made in leu of the normal Castle. It was held aloft by Several Eldar air elementals that were bound to it by powerful magic. It was the size of a galleon and had "fighters" of a sort powered by Modifiefied Fly Spells etc. In My Birthright campiagn I had an Artifact of Avani, an Golden Galley...(Sort of like out of Cleopatra) with a crew of Bronze golems looking much like the warrior guards in StarGate. It took three diffrent quest items to "activate" it and it had limited duration of flight. The higher the altitude the shorter the time flying. Of course certain anti magic effects really gave the Party a once over...Something I call Gorgons Blood was struck on the vessell and it plummitted killing the suplemetary crew of Dwarves and allmost the regents themselves...It made life interesting to say the least, specially since it takes sunlight to regenerate..and well it was pretty deep out there in the Great Bay..LOL!

It was great for a base of operations but it was countered by many things..Giants throwing rocks..A Cerelian Dragon of Course...Goddess help them...and various Serpent Galleys etc....Made for some interesting fun. Definitly NOT for the Lower level campaign unless they are temp passengers..

Well thats my input....As always Balance must be maintained so what the characters get...Well you know the Rest...

Darksister

[Lord Eldred]

WHile I too have had flying ships in past campaigns, I am just trying to make it very difficult in this one! The magic that was required for the ship you refering to sounds like what I had for the earth bound ships (ships that went through earth). I am not totally opposed. I just want it to be difficult like you made it in your campaign.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
I am not totally opposed.
Are too ya big fibber!


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
I just want it to be difficult like you made it in your campaign.

Translation of Elderdian to English
Difficult = So stinkin hard that if you try it thousands of your people will die in the effort and the survivors will all hate you.
:P

[Lord Shaene]

quit whining chioran, or he will accuse you of being like one of our former players

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene
quit whining chioran, or he will accuse you of being like one of our former players

Speaking of which... Did they ever find the body?

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

quit whining chioran, or he will accuse you of being like one of our former players

I would never accuse Chioran of being like any former player. He always does his compaining right...outside of game time!

[Lord Eldred]

After a long heated discussion on the way home from Gen Con, I have come to realize Chioran only wished to build a hover craft without using magic. I am interested in knowing what people think the chances of him building such a machine would be given the technology of the time setting of Birthright.

[geeman]

At 03:38 AM 8/14/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>After a long heated discussion on the way home from Gen Con, I have come
>to realize Chioran only wished to build a hover craft without using magic.
>I am interested in knowing what people think the chances of him building
>such a machine would be given the technology of the time setting of Birthright.

Well, if you`re going to use real world technical progression as a guide
then flight by hot air balloons didn`t really happen until the later 18th
century. The Brecht have probably the most advanced technology, and
they`re somewhere around the 15-16th century, so if you`re looking to use
historical precedence as a rationale it sounds pretty unlikely to me.

Of course in a fantasy setting it`s not at all unreasonable to imagine some
sort of technological/magical fusion, or a simple prototype of the H.G.
Wells ilk, so it really depends on how you want to handle
it. Realistically (whatever that means) it might not be very feasible.

Gary

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[kgauck]

I think you could have airships in a 15th century technology. Leonardo
explored the problem intellectually, although he never developed any large
scale models. Had some patron paid Leonardo to explore the idea of an
airship, its possible that he or some successor could have invented the hot
air balloon before the 18th century. The ancients knew that hot air rose,
and use it in a variety of applications, including automotons. What was
missing until the 18th century is a concept of air pressure.

I say go ahead with airships. I`d remember that airships, even in their
most advanced form, were abandon by everyone but Goodyear and hobbyists when
airplanes proved practical. Airship travel, even in the early 20th century
was pretty dangerous, and the large number of crashes always threatened to
ruin the industry. The proven safety of airplanes eventually proved the
death of airships. So, make `em crash frequently enough that people don`t
airship around everywhere.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Cramér" <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:38 AM


> Off-topic and not entirely serious :-)
>
> "Abandoned by everyone but Goodyear?" Hogwash! There are things generally
> not known about airships in the real world:

:-)
I liked the link. I once road a bus with a guy from Romania who was
attempting to sell his new design for a one man fast zepplin as a private
alternative to traffic delays. Airships are still out there. My Goodyear
comment was missing a ;-) but they days of transatlantic commercial
airship transport probabaly aren`t comming back any time soon. Reasarch,
like the BBD`s, obviously still have some appeal. And my Romanian friend
doesn`t appear to be cutting too deeply into the automotive market yet.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-08-14 05.15:

> I`d remember that airships, even in their most advanced form, were abandon by
> everyone but Goodyear and hobbyists when airplanes proved practical. Airship
> travel, even in the early 20th century was pretty dangerous, and the large
> number of crashes always threatened to ruin the industry. The proven safety
> of airplanes eventually proved the death of airships. So, make `em crash
> frequently enough that people don`t airship around everywhere.
>

Off-topic and not entirely serious :-)

"Abandoned by everyone but Goodyear?" Hogwash! There are things generally
not known about airships in the real world:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/te...ngle_020805.htm (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm)
l

[Watch the wrap of that URL]

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[Lee]

In a message dated 8/14/02 3:17:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kgauck@MCHSI.COM
writes:

<< My Goodyear
comment was missing a ;-) but they days of transatlantic commercial
airship transport probabaly aren`t comming back any time soon. >>

Not so fast. Zeppelin AG is still alive, and planning to re-start
transatlantic cruises within this decade.

Lee.

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[Lord Eldred]

People should keep in mind that he doesn't want to use the technology of a hot air balloon or any balloon for that matter. And he does not want to use magic. He wants to build a hover craft using some sort of fan powered by he doesn't know yet.

[geeman]

At 03:56 AM 8/15/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>People should keep in mind that he doesn`t want to use the technology of a
>hot air balloon or any balloon for that matter. And he does not want to
>use magic. He wants to build a hover craft using some sort of fan powered
>by he doesn`t know yet.

Well, then it gets much more unlikely IMO. Lighter than air flight is a
step on the path to heavier than air flight, so skipping that step isn`t
very realistic. There were many mechanisms used throughout history that
utilized various power sources (usually wind, flowing water or muscle) but
building a hovering craft that is purely mechanical, not based on magic and
without utilizing 20th century power sources (or magic) is pretty difficult
to justify. It`s just hard to picture flight technology realistically
skipping the lighter than air step, gliders, all the steps regarding
converting a power source into thrust, etc.

Aside from the direct development of flight technology there are also a lot
of technical innovations between man before flight and using a fan or
propeller to leave the earth, several of which have little direct
connection with flight itself. There are reasons why there was an
industrial revolution before flight. Construction and material techniques
(paper or light other building materials being probably the most obvious)
have to improve in order to construct such a device. The knowledge isn`t
there until many other related and supporting technologies also develop.

From a mechanical engineering standpoint, hovering is more difficult than
flying. It requires more energy to maintain the lift required to stay
aloft without forward motion and a wing. This device is going to have to
generate a lot of power, especially if it`s actually going to carry enough
weight to lift a human. The power to weight ratio for powered flight
doesn`t come about until fossil fuels come into use, and it still takes
several technical innovations after that for the transfer of power to rise
high enough for flight. That`s why helicopters came after fixed wing
aircraft. So if your player can build a device that can hover then he
could certainly build one that could fly.

It is a fantasy game, of course, so you could definitely go with a more
fantasy flavor and skip those steps. You could make the power source much
more efficacious, reduce the influence of gravity, assume that lift if much
easier to generate, but it sounds to me like your player wants a device
based on some real world technologies and using real world
limitations. From that POV I think it would be pretty difficult to justify.

Aside from any aspects of technical "realism" however, I think there`s
another very big concern in that allowing for such a hovering device opens
up a whole new set of issues. Flight is almost by definition a strategic
technology, and that kind of strategic advantage in the political BR game
could lead to all kinds of ramifications. Like most technological
progression, flight changes the nature of commerce, war, and leads to
social change. While it`s easy to picture knights in shining hovercraft,
it`s probably not a very realistic interpretation of the social results of
technical progress.

Gary

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[Lord Eldred]

Gary, I would have to agree with many of your issues. I am the one that wants the realism if he is not going to use magic. He seems to think that such a device could be made out of wood. He also thinks I should give him a chance if he starts trying. I think that lots of people would die in the process because of the inherent dangers involved with leaving the ground.

I am interested in any other arguments for or against such a development.

[geeman]

At 03:51 AM 8/19/02 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>Gary, I would have to agree with many of your issues. I am the one that
>wants the realism if he is not going to use magic. He seems to think that
>such a device could be made out of wood. He also thinks I should give him
>a chance if he starts trying. I think that lots of people would die in the
>process because of the inherent dangers involved with leaving the ground.
>
>I am interested in any other arguments for or against such a development.

Probably the easiest argument would be to tell your player to go ahead and
build such a device in real life using only period materials and
techniques. When he can circle the block three times then his PC can have
a similar device.... When I was a kid I was always tempted to send away
for the plans for a one-man hovercraft always advertised in the back of
Boys` Life magazine. According to the add anyone could construct the thing
using only used vacuum cleaners and bicycle parts. It was very appealing
to young man who didn`t yet have his driver`s licence. Something told me
that the project was probably more work than the $1 price of the plans
really indicated, so I remained a land bound adolescent.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Gary Foss wrote:
> Probably the easiest argument would be to tell your player to go ahead and
> build such a device in real life using only period materials and
> techniques. When he can circle the block three times then his PC can have
> a similar device.... When I was a kid I was always tempted to send away
> for the plans for a one-man hovercraft always advertised in the back of
> Boys` Life magazine. According to the add anyone could construct the thing
> using only used vacuum cleaners and bicycle parts. It was very appealing
> to young man who didn`t yet have his driver`s licence. Something told me
> that the project was probably more work than the $1 price of the plans
> really indicated, so I remained a land bound adolescent.

One of the physics classes in my high school (when I wasn`t taking
physics, alas) built a working hovercraft. It was about 4` diameter, had
a 4-6" skirt of some kind of padding, and required a bigass industrial
vacuum type motor to get enough air pressure to lift. One person could
sit on it at a time, right in the very center, didn`t want to tip it. It
had no motive force, either, it would get up to floating and then sit
there, you had to tow it or push down the hallway floor with your hands.
It took a lot of engine power just to lift up ~200 pounds of
student + contraption.

For the DM of a guy wanting to build one with wooden fan blades, just
tell him nice try, and no.

Why on Aebrynnis would he want one, anyway? A nice Khinasi rug with
appropriate spells is quieter, no moving parts to break, and hell,
probably less effort/cost to obtain one.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Chioran]

Orginally posted by geeman
Well, then it gets much more unlikely IMO. Lighter than air flight is a
step on the path to heavier than air flight, so skipping that step isn`t
very realistic. There were many mechanisms used throughout history that
utilized various power sources (usually wind, flowing water or muscle) but
building a hovering craft that is purely mechanical, not based on magic and
without utilizing 20th century power sources (or magic) is pretty difficult
to justify. It`s just hard to picture flight technology realistically
skipping the lighter than air step, gliders, all the steps regarding
converting a power source into thrust, etc.


Are you suggesting that the path the human race chose for technological development is the only one that could have been taken? Just because our ancestors followed this sequence of thought does not doom all other world's histories to be constrained thusly.


Orginally posted by geeman
From a mechanical engineering standpoint, hovering is more difficult than flying. It requires more energy to maintain the lift required to stay aloft without forward motion and a wing. This device is going to have to generate a lot of power, especially if it`s actually going to carry enough weight to lift a human. The power to weight ratio for powered flight doesn`t come about until fossil fuels come into use, and it still takes
several technical innovations after that for the transfer of power to rise high enough for flight. That`s why helicopters came after fixed wing aircraft. So if your player can build a device that can hover then he could certainly build one that could fly.

How much power do you believe is required to generates sufficient airflow given the following parameters:
10ft x 6ft platform with a GVW of 1500# Utilizing a 30in fan.
To provide a 1inch air gap?

[geeman]

At 05:13 PM 8/20/02 +0200, Chioran wrote:

>>Well, then it gets much more unlikely IMO. Lighter than air flight is a
>>step on the path to heavier than air flight, so skipping that step isn`t
>>very realistic. There were many mechanisms used throughout history that
>>utilized various power sources (usually wind, flowing water or muscle) but
>>building a hovering craft that is purely mechanical, not based on magic
>>and without utilizing 20th century power sources (or magic) is pretty
>>difficult to justify. It`s just hard to picture flight technology
>>realistically skipping the lighter than air step, gliders, all the steps
>>regarding converting a power source into thrust, etc.
>
>Are you suggesting that the path the human race chose for technological
>development is the only one that could have been taken? Just because our
>ancestors followed this sequence of thought does not doom all other
>world`s histories to be constrained thusly.

I wouldn`t go so far as to suggest that there`s only one path of overall
technological progression. There are many variations possible, and one
could break down technological progress into several major emphasis that
guide progress; agriculture, transport, magic, industry, etc. In a fantasy
setting one could imagine just about any type of technological
emphasis. When one specifies a particular kind of technological
progression, in this case flight, and picks a particular step of that
technological development it`s easier to describe the steps along the
path. Would a culture HAVE to develop lighter than air craft before
developing heavier than air craft? Not necessarily. The question here,
though, was whether or not such a thing was realistic, and whether a PC
should be able to build a heavier than air, propeller/fan driven hover
craft with an unspecified power source all of which was non-magical. It`s
unrealistic that a culture would develop heavier than air vehicles without
developing lighter than air ones first.

>How much power do you believe is required to generates sufficient airflow
>given the following parameters:
>10ft x 6ft platform with a GVW of 1500# Utilizing a 30in fan.
>To provide a 1inch air gap?

There`s other factors in there that would determine the amount of power
needed. Things like the overall shape of the craft, the type of fan and
shape of the fan blades, the number of blade on the fan, the material and
weight of the fan, etc. Let`s go ahead and assume 20th century technology,
though, since most of the math is based on modern calculations. Here`s a
website:

http://www.olshove.com/HoverHome/hovcalc.html

According to that calculator you`d need less than 20HP, which isn`t much
(by modern standards.) It`s pretty unlikely that one could get modern
efficiency using pre-industrial techniques and materials, though. To get
modern results, one would also need to invent rubber and methods for
processing it, perform a few thousand tests and calculations to determine
fan blade performance, not to mention invent an engine and the drive
mechanisms required to transfer that power to the prop/fan.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Consider the Tom Thumb. A locomotive built in 1829 by Peter Cooper. It had
1.4 horsepower.

Gary makes a good point that certain advances are more easily obtained on
the sholders of earlier advances. I would add that all of these advances
typically are adapted for different purposes. The hot air balloon was not
invented in order to bring the world closer to hovercraft, for example.
Railroads grew out of needs in mining, not transportation, and further
relied on technologies first developed for cannon. The first gas engine was
built in 1866 but it wasn`t until WWI that sufficient technical refinement
had been done to make the gasoline engine practical for the specialized
needs of the military. Civilian use followed more slowly.

The printing press relied on six specific innovations: paper, moveable type,
metallurgy, presses, inks, and scripts. Its easy for us to imagine moveable
type and to declare that our character invents it by simply describing to
the DM how it works. But our knowledge greatly outstrips the knowledge our
characters could reasonably expect to have.

The skills system can take up some of that slack. DM`s could ask for a DC
30 craft roll for a number of subtle innovations (42 years from gasoline
engine to Ford`s Model T) from some related Craft skill and Knowledge skill
checks. Circa 1955, obviously no one can purchase Craft (Satellite), so
building a satellite can only be done with the Craft (Rocket) skill, and the
cross-technology penalty.

One of the general problems I have with technological innovation is that
players have ideas about technology and how it can be used that characters
could never have. Edison spent 30 years trying to find a business
application for the his phonograph before accepting musical recording as an
acceptable application. Obviously Edison could envision uses to business
recording but was unable to envision the modern music industry. Since most
players will avoid dead-end technologies in favor of useful technologies,
and they can select the right technologies for the right uses, they are
capable of incredible leaps in technology.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Chioran]

Orginally posted by kgauck

The printing press relied on six specific innovations: paper, moveable type,
metallurgy, presses, inks, and scripts. Its easy for us to imagine moveable
type and to declare that our character invents it by simply describing to
the DM how it works. But our knowledge greatly outstrips the knowledge our
characters could reasonably expect to have.



However, some of us, as players, recognize that it would be absurd to make an exponential technological leap, and have infact demonstrated a logical progression from a single, very simple technological advance, through a series of more sophisticated advances until arriving at a culmination of a series of technological advances. It then becomes the responsibility of the DM to regulate the development rate of each step along the path. It is not, however, his responsibility to be narrow minded and tyrranical amd just say no it can't be done. Those who would suggest such a thing are equally narrow-minded.

[geeman]

At 03:07 AM 8/21/2002 +0200, Chioran wrote:

>However, some of us, as players, recognize that it would be absurd to make
>an exponential technological leap, and have infact demonstrated a logical
>progression from a single, very simple technological advance, through a
>series of more sophisticated advances until arriving at a culmination of a
>series of technological advances. It then becomes the responsibility of
>the DM to regulate the development rate of each step along the path. It
>is not, however, his responsibility to be narrow minded and tyrranical amd
>just say no it can`t be done. Those who would suggest such a thing are
>equally narrow-minded.

In my experience people tend to under rate not only the rate of advance,
the amount of effort required to make those advances and apply a sort of
simplistic reverse engineering/perfect hindsight to how technical progress
works. Got some examples of what you`re talking about here? What simple
technological advances and series of more sophisticated advances, etc. are
we talking about?

Gary

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[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by geeman

At 03:51 AM 8/19/02 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>Gary, I would have to agree with many of your issues. I am the one that
>wants the realism if he is not going to use magic. He seems to think that
>such a device could be made out of wood. He also thinks I should give him
>a chance if he starts trying. I think that lots of people would die in the
>process because of the inherent dangers involved with leaving the ground.
>
>I am interested in any other arguments for or against such a development.

Probably the easiest argument would be to tell your player to go ahead and
build such a device in real life using only period materials and
techniques. When he can circle the block three times then his PC can have
a similar device.... When I was a kid I was always tempted to send away
for the plans for a one-man hovercraft always advertised in the back of
Boys` Life magazine. According to the add anyone could construct the thing
using only used vacuum cleaners and bicycle parts. It was very appealing
to young man who didn`t yet have his driver`s licence. Something told me
that the project was probably more work than the $1 price of the plans
really indicated, so I remained a land bound adolescent.

Gary

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I believe I made this argument. I don't exactly remember his response other than something to the effect that just because he doesn't have the time or the resources to persue it in real life, doesn't mean he couldn't persue it as a character.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Chioran


Orginally posted by kgauck

The printing press relied on six specific innovations: paper, moveable type,
metallurgy, presses, inks, and scripts. Its easy for us to imagine moveable
type and to declare that our character invents it by simply describing to
the DM how it works. But our knowledge greatly outstrips the knowledge our
characters could reasonably expect to have.





However, some of us, as players, recognize that it would be absurd to make an exponential technological leap, and have infact demonstrated a logical progression from a single, very simple technological advance, through a series of more sophisticated advances until arriving at a culmination of a series of technological advances. It then becomes the responsibility of the DM to regulate the development rate of each step along the path. It is not, however, his responsibility to be narrow minded and tyrranical amd just say no it can't be done. Those who would suggest such a thing are equally narrow-minded.


Still looking for the small steps toward powering the damn thing given Dan's real life scenario. I do however appreciate the idea of starting with a fan...

By the way, I do not believe narrow minded and tyranical need to go hand in hand. I believe since it is my campaign setting, I can be tyranical if I wish because it is my world to control. Within that concept I can be open minded and still say no to your ideas.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chioran" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:07 PM


> It is not, however, [the DM`s] responsibility to be narrow minded
> and tyrranical amd just say no it can`t be done. Those who would
> suggest such a thing are equally narrow-minded.

Since no one has suggested blanket refusals, I`m sure you`ll get agreement
on that point all around.

> However, some of us, as players, recognize that it would be absurd
> to make an exponential technological leap, and have infact
> demonstrated a logical progression from a single, very simple
> technological advance, through a series of more sophisticated
> advances until arriving at a culmination of a series of technological
> advances.

Since I presume the player knows the logical progression of invention toward
the goal he would like his character to seek, such explanation risks
introducing player knowledge in the guise of character knowledge. I`d be
much more impressed by a character created progression full of mis-steps
(Leonardo`s corkscrew helicopter) than a nice logical progression.
Invention of the lightbulb took 37 years of progression, some of it down
dead ends. Is your character prepared to labor for 37 years on an invention
(among doing other things, of course) before a breakthrough. And them we
ought to mention the large number of inventors whose names are unknown
because they had no important contributions. I`ll grant that PC`s are
extraordinary, so we`re all Edisons and Lavoisiers.

I`ll also point out that the pace of technological change has increased as
the core knowledge of technology has increased. The history of the plow,
for example is a very slow one indeed.

Its easy enough to govern research into things like magic, because spell
levels and caster levels can be set to keep everyone from crafting wands of
teleportation.

As for myself, I`ve just dropped all scientific knowledge and adopted
scientific knowledge of the 14th century as my campaign truth. Now, players
and characters are on the same awkward footing. Air passing over a wing may
create lift in the real world, but you`re gonna need imbue a carpet with the
fire of Avani if you want to fly in my campaign, because only fire does not
sink in a body of air.

The airship invention in question was supposed to be realistic and
non-magical. I give it 1d4+1 hundred years of research. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Gary wrote:
> >However, some of us, as players, recognize that it would be absurd to make
> >an exponential technological leap, and have infact demonstrated a logical
> >progression from a single, very simple technological advance, through a
> >series of more sophisticated advances until arriving at a culmination of a
> >series of technological advances. It then becomes the responsibility of
> >the DM to regulate the development rate of each step along the path. It
> >is not, however, his responsibility to be narrow minded and tyrranical amd
> >just say no it can`t be done. Those who would suggest such a thing are
> >equally narrow-minded.
>
> In my experience people tend to under rate not only the rate of advance,
> the amount of effort required to make those advances and apply a sort of
> simplistic reverse engineering/perfect hindsight to how technical progress
> works. Got some examples of what you`re talking about here? What simple
> technological advances and series of more sophisticated advances, etc. are
> we talking about?

It`s a hovercraft. First you invent a gas-turbine jet engine. Then you
invent jet fuel to go in it. Then composite materials light and strong
enough to build the body out of. Then a bigass rubber skirt. Then some
duct tape to hold it all together. Bingo presto, hovercraft.

:)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

At 10:00 PM 8/20/2002 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>It`s a hovercraft. First you invent a gas-turbine jet engine. Then you
>invent jet fuel to go in it. Then composite materials light and strong
>enough to build the body out of. Then a bigass rubber skirt. Then some
>duct tape to hold it all together. Bingo presto, hovercraft.

I`m informed that the 1-man (1-boy?) hovercraft plans in the back of Boys`
Life that used to go for $1 back when I knew how to tie a kerchief now cost
$8.95. Progress....

Gary

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[Chioran]

Orginally posted by geeman
In my experience people tend to under rate not only the rate of advance, the amount of effort required to make those advances and apply a sort of simplistic reverse engineering/perfect hindsight to how technical progress works. Got some examples of what you`re talking about here? What simple technological advances and series of more sophisticated advances, etc. are we talking about?

Gary


I can assure you that no one involoved in this venture is underestimating anything. I understand the time and effort which goes into technological advances and do not take such things lightly.

As far as a first step along this path toward a hovercraft, how about an improved wagon/cart wheel. One that is stronger and able to handle the rough paths that they frequently travel on.

Earth Shattering isn't it?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by kgauck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chioran" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:07 PM


> It is not, however, [the DM`s] responsibility to be narrow minded
> and tyrranical amd just say no it can`t be done. Those who would
> suggest such a thing are equally narrow-minded.

Since no one has suggested blanket refusals, I`m sure you`ll get agreement
on that point all around.

Actually someone did suggest just such a thing on page 10.



The airship invention in question was supposed to be realistic and
non-magical. I give it 1d4+1 hundred years of research. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com


That seems reasonable.

[geeman]

At 02:35 PM 8/21/2002 +0200, Chioran wrote:

>>In my experience people tend to under rate not only the rate of advance,
>>the amount of effort required to make those advances and apply a sort of
>>simplistic reverse engineering/perfect hindsight to how technical
>>progress works. Got some examples of what you`re talking about
>>here? What simple technological advances and series of more
>>sophisticated advances, etc. are we talking about?
>
>I can assure you that no one involoved in this venture is underestimating
>anything. I understand the time and effort which goes into technological
>advances and do not take such things lightly.
>
>As far as a first step along this path toward a hovercraft, how about an
>improved wagon/cart wheel. One that is stronger and able to handle the
>rough paths that they frequently travel on.
>
>Earth Shattering isn`t it?

Well, if we`re using the depictions of carts and wagons in 3e as the basis
of our wheel technology then I think this a pretty good example of what I`m
talking about. There are many steps in improving the wheel that are much
more specific than just saying "improved wheel." Spokes? Iron
treads? Shock absorbers? One with an improved axle? Standardized parts
that are more easily replaced when inevitable wear and tear occurs? Those
are just a few steps along the improved wheel path that could be explored.

More importantly, however, is that a realistic approach to technology means
that the improved wheel should accompany other technical improvements that
would seem ancillary to the wheel itself, but are really necessary to its
development. Improved wheels go along with an infrastructure of other
technologies, most obviously road construction, but also things like mining
techniques, tack & harness, and animal husbandry. Technical advances don`t
generally exist on their own, which is what makes it so difficult to
rationalize taking one device from a significantly more advanced technology
and creating it in an earlier era. One example that has been cited was the
printing press and the many steps along its development, but in the broader
perspective there is an infrastructure that needs to exist for such
technologies. The printing press didn`t get invented until there was a
large enough percentage of the population who were literate to justify the
effort needed to print out several thousand copies of the same text.

There are certainly technical improvements that PCs (or NPCs) should be
able to perform in 3e, especially BR regents, but it`s much more difficult
to rationalize a single anachronism than it is to justify progress in a
more generalized, abstract way. A system of "tech levels" in which the PCs
progress the skills of their domain in an aspect or two over a period of
time as part of the domain turn structure until they can build a prototype
of a device that is a tech level or two beyond the prevailing tech of the
culture. That`s probably the more "realistic" way of handling it.

Gary

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[Cobos]

Gary wrote:
>
> At 02:35 PM 8/21/2002 +0200, Chioran wrote:
>
> >>In my experience people tend to under rate not only the rate of advance,
> >>the amount of effort required to make those advances and apply a sort of
> >>simplistic reverse engineering/perfect hindsight to how technical
> >>progress works. Got some examples of what you`re talking about
> >>here? What simple technological advances and series of more
> >>sophisticated advances, etc. are we talking about?
> >
> >I can assure you that no one involoved in this venture is underestimating
> >anything. I understand the time and effort which goes into technological
> >advances and do not take such things lightly.
> >
> >As far as a first step along this path toward a hovercraft, how about an
> >improved wagon/cart wheel. One that is stronger and able to handle the
> >rough paths that they frequently travel on.
> >
> >Earth Shattering isn`t it?
>
> Well, if we`re using the depictions of carts and wagons in 3e as the basis
> of our wheel technology then I think this a pretty good example of what I`m
> talking about. There are many steps in improving the wheel that are much
> more specific than just saying "improved wheel." Spokes? Iron
> treads? Shock absorbers? One with an improved axle? Standardized parts
> that are more easily replaced when inevitable wear and tear occurs? Those
> are just a few steps along the improved wheel path that could be explored.
>
> More importantly, however, is that a realistic approach to technology means
> that the improved wheel should accompany other technical improvements that
> would seem ancillary to the wheel itself, but are really necessary to its
> development. Improved wheels go along with an infrastructure of other
> technologies, most obviously road construction, but also things like mining
> techniques, tack & harness, and animal husbandry. Technical advances don`t
> generally exist on their own, which is what makes it so difficult to
> rationalize taking one device from a significantly more advanced technology
> and creating it in an earlier era. One example that has been cited was the
> printing press and the many steps along its development, but in the broader
> perspective there is an infrastructure that needs to exist for such
> technologies. The printing press didn`t get invented until there was a
> large enough percentage of the population who were literate to justify the
> effort needed to print out several thousand copies of the same text.
>
> There are certainly technical improvements that PCs (or NPCs) should be
> able to perform in 3e, especially BR regents, but it`s much more difficult
> to rationalize a single anachronism than it is to justify progress in a
> more generalized, abstract way. A system of "tech levels" in which the PCs
> progress the skills of their domain in an aspect or two over a period of
> time as part of the domain turn structure until they can build a prototype
> of a device that is a tech level or two beyond the prevailing tech of the
> culture. That`s probably the more "realistic" way of handling it.
>
> Gary
>
I couldn`t agree more with this, especially if you start looking at more
modern tech you`d be suprised how much of it simply isn`t doable with a
older tech base. Just take the steel tools we make today (especially in
the expensive stuff where they really use state-of-the-art methods and
tecniques). Any birthright smith would have no problem realizing that
our
21st century knive is better, but he still wouldn`t be able to reproduce
it even if he had all the knowledge and a time traveller to show him.
It would hit the classical you need the tools to make the tools to make
the tools you need for the job :)

A good book to illustrate this, which also IMHO happens to be a good
read is
1632 by Eric Flint, you can actually get it electronicly for free
from here: http://www.baen.com/library/ and also the 1632 Tech forum on
their
webforums..

Cobos

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[Lord Eldred]

So let us assume we give Chioran can advance the wheel and he is looking at a specific advancement of making it a stronger wheel and let say he has to be more specific on what exactly the advancement is...

What would be the cost, time, and percent chance of success that people would give on this small leap?

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Lord Eldred wrote:
> Lord Eldred wrote:
> So let us assume we give Chioran can advance the wheel and he is
> looking at a specific advancement of making it a stronger wheel and
> let say he has to be more specific on what exactly the advancement
> is...
>
> What would be the cost, time, and percent chance of success that
> people would give on this small leap?

I`m not real sure how a wheel would advance, so I`m going to take
something more complex, like a wagon, and look at making it advance. The
player may know exactly what advancement came on the wagon, in which
order, in our history. So he would know exactly what step he was going to
take. Each of these incremental steps would actually tend to be rather
cheap- it`s coming up with the idea that`s hard.

Suppose the idea would be a pivoting front axle, to allow tighter
cornering (I know jack about wagons, but I know modern 4-wheeled wagons
sometimes have this). The player sets this as his goal. He could use
out-of-game knowledge, come up with this immediately, and implement it.
It`s probably not a lot more expensive than a regular wagon axle- maybe
the overall cost of the wagon goes up by 5 gp initially, for extra
materials and labor to make the pivot.

How likely is it that the character would come up with this? Not real
likely. I would give a chance a character who spent time working with
wagons- someone with Craft- wainwright would have the best chance, though
carpenters, teamsters, smiths, etc might have lower chances, supposing
their time was actually spent working on wagons. A swordsmith is not
terribly likely to improve the wagon field. Anyway, a wainwright might
get one chance per year, at DC 30 or 35, to come up with the idea. A
smith, carpenter, teamster, etc, might have a DC 40 check. Each of these
could give synergy bonuses to the others- a wainwright with at least 6 or
8 ranks in animal handling (all my 3e books are at my new apartment, I`m
probably getting names wrong), representing a career in teamstering, might
get +2 to his check.

So the idea would be the hard part. I definitely would not allow
out-of-game knowledge to be used in this endeavor. It would be straight
skill checks.

If a regent wanted to sponsor researchers to improve the wagon, I`d let
him Build such a research hall, then pay GB to maintain it. The average
GB spent every season would grant a +1 bonus to the yearly check, and it
would take a full year before checks would be possible. A successful
check vs DC 35 or 40 would result in some improvement. They might not
come up with pivoting axles- they might invent a better carriage brake, or
a spring for suspension, or a quickly-changeable wheel (in case one
breaks).

The high DC on these checks represents not just knowledge on the part of
the inventor, but the likelyhood that materials or crafting knowledge will
have progressed to the point to MAKE a new invention possible.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

At 03:25 AM 8/22/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>What would be the cost, time, and percent chance of success that people
>would give on this small leap?

I haven`t worked on this stuff much recently, but here`s a description of
the system of technological progress I`ve been fiddling with. (This is
probably much more answer than you were looking for, but what the heck?)

First off, there`s a list of tech levels that I wrote up for determining
things like province population level, but I`ve extrapolated it for use
with this kind of thing. It`s a bit hard to reproduce that table, so
here`s a link to it in the birthright-l archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A...D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1 (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0106E&L=birthright-l&P=R515&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1)

Using that table, most BR cultures are TL 5. The Brecht may be TL
6. Elven cultures are kind of hard to rate, but they`re probably between 5
or 6 as well, though they are a bit of a special case.

Within each tech level are several categories. DM`s should pick whatever
categories they like, depending on the emphasis they want technology to
represent in their campaign. I use the following eight:
Government/Society, Agriculture/Industry, Construction/Architecture,
Health/Medicine, Transportation/Travel, Military, Energy and Magic. In
order to raise the tech level in a particular category a regent has to
perform a number of successful Progress actions equal to the square of the
current tech level. That is, if a regent wanted to raise the Military tech
level of his domain from 5 to 6 he`d have to perform 25 successful Progress
actions. (I refer to each of these as an "innovation" just for flavor, so
it takes 25 innovations to go from TL 5 to TL 6.) The DC of the progress
action is 10 + target tech level. (DMs may want to raise or lower this
based on whatever their views on how easy or difficult they want progress
to be.) One could also have more than eight categories of technology, but
because of the way tech level is determined be aware that doing so makes
raising the overall tech level of a culture more difficult. Some cultures
may even have a different set of categories. BR elves, for instance, might
have Natural Harmony in place of Agriculture/Industry.

Using a system like this the easiest way to keep track of a particular
culture`s progress is to note it in the description of the culture after a
decimal point. That is, a culture might have an Energy TL 5.14 meaning
fourteen of the twenty-five successful progress actions have been made
towards getting to TL 6. Each successful progress action also means the
regent can pick a particular type of item from the higher tech level which
can be built as a "prototype." That is, he can build those items, but at a
cost equal to the cost of the "standard" cost of the item times it`s tech
level. Let`s say, for instance, one wanted to build iron weapons using
bronze age tech. The Bronze Age is TL 2 while the Iron Age is TL 3. If a
regent performed a successful DC 13 Progress action to improve his military
technology he would be at TL 2.1 and he`d be able to construct, say, iron
longswords for 45gp each instead of 15gp.

I assume that tech levels can`t go more then 1 level away from one another,
so a culture can`t "realistically" have agriculture/industrial of TL 5 and
a military TL 7, but you could easily toss that aside if you want someone
to create higher tech items in a sort of H.G. Wells/Jules Verne kind of
way. (And in cases like elven technology it makes sense to throw out that
restriction too.) You could then have the character develop single aspect
of technology, in this case Transportation/Travel, until he got a single
innovation into the tech level that would allow hovercraft, which might be
TL 11. If he`s going to build it using TL 10.1 technology it would cost
x11 the cost of such an item in a TL 11 culture, so if you find some sort
of reference (maybe D20 Modern will have the cost of such vehicles) you
could determine a price for it at x11 the cost of the reference you`ve
found. (Though it`s hard to place the cost of items that don`t use gp as
their base cost I`ve found that 1gp:$20 is a rough guide. YMMV.) Building
a prototype $20,000 TL 11 hovercraft, for example, after performing some
progress actions at TL 10 would cost $220,000 or 11,000gp.

Using a system like that described above you could figure out the cost of
an item, and the amount of research effort required to learn to build
it. There are many tweaks that you could apply to such a system, and it
may very well be too complicated for many people`s taste....

Gary

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[Lord Eldred]

Gary such a system does well to give tech advances in general. However, Chioran is looking for a specific tech advance which I would do without a whole general tech advance. How do you think your system applies?

[geeman]

At 03:41 PM 8/24/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>Gary such a system does well to give tech advances in general. However,
>Chioran is looking for a specific tech advance which I would do without a
>whole general tech advance. How do you think your system applies?

Towards the end of that post there is some information about the cost of
creating prototypes of items that are from a more advanced tech level than
the one of the prevailing culture. Multiply the cost of the item in that
tech level by its actual tech level. So a TL 10 item produced in a TL 9
culture with a cost (at TL 10) of 45gp would cost 450gp. I usually assume
that one can create a prototype only of items in the very next TL, and that
there must still be at least one successful Progress or Research action
performed at TL X to build a prototype of an item from TL X+1. If you
wanted to get rid of those considerations, though, and allow unrestricted
prototype development then you should probably extrapolate that system by
continuing the multipliers for each tech level step between the prevailing
one and the target TL of the item being built. The same 45gp TL 10 item
produced at TL 5 would then cost 45gp x 10 x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 = 1,360,800gp.

It is, I think, pretty questionable whether someone really could just reach
across several tech levels without performing a lot of research first and
produce items from that more advanced tech, but even without that
requirement the cost of creating an item by extrapolating the costs and
continuing the multipliers is more than likely prohibitively
expensive. Using the $20=1gp conversion (in fiddling around with these
kinds of $ to gp conversions I`ve found gp equal to $20=$50 or so with
certain exceptions, YMMV) the cost of a "modern" TL 11 hovercraft that
cost, say, $20,000 built at TL 5 would be 1,000gp x 11 x 10 x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6
= 332,640,000gp.

On the other hand a medieval (TL 5) character who wanted to produce a circa
1974 silk screen polyester disco shirt ($20) would only cost 332,640gp. He
could produce the same era`s mood ring ($5) for $83,160 or replicate the
70`s pet rock fad for 33,264gp each.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

Lord Eldred <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-08-19 03.51:

> Lord Eldred wrote:
> Gary, I would have to agree with many of your issues. I am the one that wants
> the realism if he is not going to use magic. He seems to think that such a
> device could be made out of wood. He also thinks I should give him a chance if
> he starts trying. I think that lots of people would die in the process because
> of the inherent dangers involved with leaving the ground.

I can`t see any real dangers, unless he has people leaping off cliffs. No
amount of tingering with wood will ever get you off the ground. There is NO
WAY that a RL 15th century technological base could produce a hovercraft
unless we play around with the laws of physics.

But basically, it is all a genre question. Gnomes have flying machines in
Krynn. Anime is full of flying devices - particularilu check out Escaflowne,
where there is a kind of anti-gravitic rock with a bouyancy (in air) that
depends on it`s temperature - heat it and it rises.

The basic questin becomes - do you want this device in your campaign? If it
is mundane, it will very soon be copied, and the whole world will be using
it.

/Carl

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[Lord Eldred]

I am not directly opposed to the idea of a hovercraft if it makes sense. For example if he uses magical means to make it happen. SO far the strongest arguments I see against it is

1. He is using player knowledge to develop something that his character wouldn't necessarily think up.

2. I still don't see how he gets the wood off the ground with the energy sources of the day.