A Variant For The Sidhe

[Osprey]

There was a long discussion in the Nature School for Elven Wizards thread about elves and healing. But that thread should remain focused on the topic of the Nature School, so I opted to start this one as a new thread based on the healing discussion. Based on ideas of myself and others there (forgive me for not posting your names here, but pipe in if this was your idea originally), I came up with a system about elven physiology and healing.

The Sidhelien have a kind of symbiotic connection with mebhaighal. They depend upon its continual flow for their own well-being. For the Sidhe, the health of the land is directly connected to their personal health. When the mebhaighal is strong, elves can heal wounds rapidly, and they do not suffer the ravages of age and disease.

Elves do not heal as humans do. In a province with a high source rating (5+), elves can Regenerate. The rate of regeneration is based upon the strength of the mebhaighal. For every level of the source above 4, elves regenerate 1 hp per hour of rest or light activity. Thus, in a typical elven forest (source 7), an elf would heal 3 hp per hour, and 5 hp per hour in the heart of the forest (source 9).

Outside such areas, however, their healing ability is slowed. As long as a province has at least 1 level of source remaining, elves can heal at a rate of [Source level] hit points per day of rest. Thus, they heal only 1-4 hp per day of rest in the more developed areas of Cerilia.

If a province has no source levels remaining, elves cannot heal there. They can bandage their wounds and prevent infection using the Heal skill, but their mebhaighal-bound bodies simply have no energy to repair themselves.

Because they rely on mebhaighal to heal their bodies, elves cannot be healed by divine magic. The spells used to heal humans and demi-humans simply have no effect on the elven physiology.

[RaspK_FOG]

:) Really nice work! You have my thumbs up!

[Vallariel]

In a province with a high source rating (5+), elves can Regenerate. The rate of regeneration is based upon the strength of the mebhaighal. For every level of the source above 4, elves regenerate 1 hp per hour of rest or light activity. Thus, in a typical elven forest (source 7), an elf would heal 3 hp per hour, and 5 hp per hour in the heart of the forest (source 9).

I think this is a sweet idea... :D But don't you think its a little too powerful...


Because they rely on mebhaighal to heal their bodies, elves cannot be healed by divine magic. The spells used to heal humans and demi-humans simply have no effect on the elven physiology.

If healing is a divine power, and the elf is one of those rare elves who believes in one god or another, the divine power of a cleric of said god should still be able to heal him, I think. Or if it is the belief of the Cleric in his divinty, that provides the healing, it should still affect an elf, whether or not he wants it to... (The elves turned their back on the Gods after being fooled by Azrai, but what cleric wouldn't try to get all those untapped followers or what god wouldn't wish to extend his divinty over them... The source material is very clear that the elves believe the human gods exist... they just want no part of them..)

I think the acceptance of healing from a human cleric, would force the elf in return, to feel he owed a debt to both the divinity that he wants no part of and the cleric he would owe respect to for saving his immortal life...
He would want to avoid that and the reminder of Azrai as much as possible (especially if he actually remembered Azrai and Mt Diesmaar, itself.)
By this rational it seems to me, an elf would not accept the divine healing of a cleric... unless unknowingly (ie unconcious) or in complete desperation.... (not merely to save his own life, but to accomplish some urgent *Good of the many, outweighing the good of the few* task....)

Can you imagine the crisis of faith for the cleric? I can heal this dude and that dude and Joe the dwarf, but my God (will not/can not) help my beloved unconsious elf buddy... to whom I owe my sorry life three times over... He'll be god shopping in no time.... lol. Unless of course he is laughing, "Ha Ha! There isn't an elf worth saving on all of Cerillia..."

[RaspK_FOG]

Can you imagine the crisis of faith for the cleric? I can heal this dude and that dude and Joe the dwarf, but my God (will not/can not) help my beloved unconsious elf buddy... to whom I owe my sorry life three times over... He'll be god shopping in no time.... lol. Unless of course he is laughing, "Ha Ha! There isn't an elf worth saving on all of Cerillia..."

Or he could just place lots of plants in pots around the elf (:lol:); an alternative would be to place an elf in a small glade. This latter enhances drama and role-playing, in the need to get their friend into a forest before it is too late!

[ConjurerDragon]

Vallariel schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1956

>

...



>If healing is a divine power, and the elf is one of those rare elves who believes in one god or another, the divine power of a cleric of said god should still be able to heal him, I think. Or if it is the belief of the Cleric in his divinty, that provides the healing, it should still affect an elf, whether or not he wants it to... (The elves turned their back on the Gods after being fooled by Azrai, but what cleric wouldn`t try to get all those untapped followers or what god wouldn`t wish to extend his divinty over them... The source material is very clear that the elves believe the human gods exist... they just want no part of them..)

>

The sidhelien did not turn their back on the gods AFTER Azrai fooled

them, which would be after the invasion from the adurian barbarians who

founded Anuire. They did not worship gods even before that, so not the

new gods, but also not the old gods. That Azrai fooled them does not

necessarily mean that they worshipped him as god while they followed

him, just that he convinced/lured them to take revenge on the invading

humans.



A cleric who tries to heal an sidhelien might very well, depending on

the campaign lose his divine powers - a god could not want some

"agnostics" benefit from his powers who refuse to worship ANY god since

before the new gods where created.



Even worse: Acknoledging that the gods exist, does not even mean that

the sidhelien acknowledge that the gods are GODS, just that they exist -

perhaps the oldest sidhelien see the gods whom they knew before they

ascended at Deismaar as lowly humans and refer to them as humans with

high bloodlines but not as divine beings... ;-)

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 09:34 PM 9/16/2003 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>Or he could just place lots of plants in pots around the elf (:lol:); an

>alternative would be to place an elf in a small glade. This latter

>enhances drama and role-playing, in the need to get their friend into a

>forest before it is too late!



I just wanted to pop in to note that I haven`t much liked any of the

proposals/rationalizations that have been presented in the past regarding

healing magic and elves. That is, not allowing healing magics to work on

elves by itself doesn`t strike me as a very good explanation of why they

cannot themselves use healing magics, nor does the divine (rather than

arcane) aspect of the "cure" spells seem like enough justification for not

allowing elves healing magics. None of those things by themselves have

been very apt. I do, however, get a kick out of this explanation of

healing for elves being related to their relationship to the natural

environment, so I think in combination we`re at last arriving at something

that might be both more colourful for BR and have the potential for solid

game mechanics.



This particular set of ideas (no divine healing for elves, but improved

"natural" healing--nice pun there) allows for cute game mechanical

explanations (elves heal 1 hp/day per potential source level of the

province they are in, for instance) but also because that serves as an

excellent characterization of both the elven animosity towards other races,

and explains their decline. If elves simply don`t heal as rapidly in

provinces with lower sources available then we have a really good game

mechanical explanation for their decline and retreat into their

forests. Kudos, folks.



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Vallariel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:08 PM





> Can you imagine the crisis of faith for the cleric? I can heal this

> dude and that dude and Joe the dwarf, but my God (will not/can

> not) help my beloved unconsious elf buddy... to whom I owe my

> sorry life three times over... He`ll be god shopping in no time.... lol.



Given the way the religious mind used to operate the cleric would have no

crisis of faith, but would say something like, "Oh foolish elf, why do you

fail to see the power of the gods and acknowledge their power? For your

prideful refusal to humble yourself you now lay bleeding and I am powerless

to help you, though I could raise my great grandfather from death." Its the

elf who should go god shopping.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Eosin the Red]

Vallariel:

> >If healing is a divine power, and the elf is one of those rare elves who

believes in one god or another, the divine power of a cleric of said god

should still be able to heal him, I think. Or if it is the belief of the

Cleric in his divinty, that provides the healing, it should still affect an

elf, whether or not he wants it to... (The elves turned their back on the

Gods after being fooled by Azrai, but what cleric wouldn`t try to get all

those untapped followers or what god wouldn`t wish to extend his divinty

over them... The source material is very clear that the elves believe the

human gods exist... they just want no part of them..)



Michael:

> The sidhelien did not turn their back on the gods AFTER Azrai fooled

> them, which would be after the invasion from the adurian barbarians who

> founded Anuire. They did not worship gods even before that, so not the

> new gods, but also not the old gods. That Azrai fooled them does not

> necessarily mean that they worshipped him as god while they followed

> him, just that he convinced/lured them to take revenge on the invading

> humans.

>

> A cleric who tries to heal an sidhelien might very well, depending on

> the campaign lose his divine powers - a god could not want some

> "agnostics" benefit from his powers who refuse to worship ANY god since

> before the new gods where created.

>

> Even worse: Acknoledging that the gods exist, does not even mean that

> the sidhelien acknowledge that the gods are GODS, just that they exist -

> perhaps the oldest sidhelien see the gods whom they knew before they

> ascended at Deismaar as lowly humans and refer to them as humans with

> high bloodlines but not as divine beings... ;-)





Since the elves look on the gods as something akin to powerful humans, my

question would be along these line: if you were laying in a puddle of your

own blood and guts and a very skilled surgeon came along and said "I can

heal you, but I should warn you that I believe in the Great Grax whom you

despise. Should I leave you to die or fix you?" Unless you happen to be one

of those odd aberrant the odds are overwhelming that you will take the

healing.



There is a saying in medicine: There are no atheists in the OR and no

technophobes among the terminally ill.



Randy ~ Eosin

[RaspK_FOG]

I know that may sound off-topic to some people, by I could not resist asking it out: what about Death?

With the lack of healing (which was very well given by Osprey, and he has my gratitude for posting such a well-wrought concept), one would think that elves could not be raised from the dead. In previous editions, however, there was this ambient feeling that elves could reincarnate. Combining that with an inherent connection to the mebhaigal, it could be possible that an elf could reincarnate if left for sufficient time in a province with a high source rating...

How does this sound? For those of you who find this too good, I suppose that making the reincarnation process take a day in the heart of a great forest, while it could take perhaps a year in a province with a very low source rating, or not happen at all, could be a good balancing issue. Alternatively, the elf should be transfered in such a place (province with a minimum source rating) within one week per level of the elf (instead of druid), or the ability would not work. The only matter would be to create a new percentage list based highly on forest creatures (animals) and fey.

[Osprey]

The Sidhe are immortal. I think the tradeoff for them is that they don&#39;t have souls that can be called back. Instead of being like a human, who is somewhat seperate from his or her immortal soul, I imagine the elf as a soul embodied in flesh.

So what does happen when the flesh is destroyed? Is the elf&#39;s spirit also destroyed?

I tend to think of it as disrupted, and the energies dispersed back into the surrounding mebhaighal. Thus, that spirit&#39;s individual identity is lost. So no reincarnation or resurrection.

Besides, I always liked how rare those powers were in BR. Magical healing is pretty high fantasy already, and ressurrection is REALLY high fantasy&#33; If BR is a low-fantasy (or at least low-magic) world, then I&#39;m all for discouraging the great miracles and such.

Naturally, there are 101 possibilites (and then some) as to what happens to elves when they die. But I think that metaphysically, there should be some sort of balance for immortality in life. And the most obvious counterbalance is that death is final for the immortals. There is no afterlife, no realm of the gods. Cerilia is the realm of the Sidhe. No trekking through through the shadow world for dead elf spirits&#33;

Osprey

[Justinius_ExMortis]

I can honestly say that I was present for the brainstorming of Ospreys that came up with this particular brainchild. I like the way the concept was illustrated by RaspK_FOG, how an elven companion would have to be rushed to glade or other high source natural environment in order to heal and rejoin the group. The reincarnation aspect is very interesting and could make for very epic love/hate relationships in an Elven Birthright game, a love or hate relationship that just doesnt&#39; stretch across centuries but across multiple lives creates incredible story telling possibilities. Though considering the way Elves deal with time Reincarnation would never nor could never be a hurried process, a minimum of years if not decades would be appropriate and only then if an acceptable Elven child is born at, on, or around the right time. A connection with some kind of Divination and fortune telling is easily created with this as well. Imagine the joy of Elven parents when the great Diviner so and so informs them that their daughter will be the reincarnation of great historical Elven Hero A. An elf passing away in an low to even no source location could also mean the total loss of that Elves soul, yet another reason for the Elvish dislike for taking the battle to the humans so to speak. The possibilities even exist for the Elven communion issue, wherein Elven souls are so closely linked as to be part of this great entity (i.e. the world, the environment, the world soul, etc.). This could allow for there only being a limited number of Elven souls; thus each life is so very precious to the Elven people as a whole.

One of the more interesting ideas that has been lightly touched on in the previous posts and when Osprey was bouncing this around was the thought of one: that Source levels vary on the individual scale throughout the Province and that the number used on the Province scale is simply the average; and two: That man-made and source draining objects and places are anathema to elves, for instance the elven land with a road running through it for trade. You could very easily imagine Elves avoiding, running across, charging across, or simply not dealing with this strip of anathema destruction of the natural world running through their territory.

Hopefully I&#39;ve brought up some interesting ideas. Yours Truly;


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master

[Justinius_ExMortis]

I think no resurrection is appropriate as resurrection is an unnatural procedure, but a flow of energies into the next acceptable receptacle? I think that&#39;s very acceptable. The loss of identity is also a given, but Elves are a part of the natural world and the energies that create that. I could very easily see the same "flavor" energies manifesting in an Elven child and ever so slightly influencing the paths that child will follow both through psychology and choices of profession, spouse, style of home, etc.

As for balance, I think loss of identity and such is very balancing, the energy is the same but the mind is different. Also the loss of an Elven soul outside of Source rich lands makes for a deadly balance, not only has this soul been lost but the maximum possible Elven numbers is forever reduced by one. The decline of the race as a whole is one of the most dramatic and saddening elements of the Elven psychology. I luv it.


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master

[Athos69]

I have played some Arcanis, and a concept that they use could be modified for this aspect. In their world, the Elves are a race created from elemental essences for use as a servitor race. We can throw that right out the window -- but one of the side effects from that we could play with.

There are a finite number of elven souls -- if no elf died, none would be born. If we tweak this a bit, the rare death of an elf would allow a child to be born to elven parents -- there would be no connection between the deceased elf&#39;s personality or intellect and the newborn, and the idea of bringing back an elf from the dead would be anathemia to the Sidhe.

just a possible idea...

[destowe]

I like the ideas, but I wonder about taking this to the next level.


What is the healing rate for elven units?

Would they regenerate W hit(s) per war move in a source (X)? Or (1+Y) per amount over source (Z)

And as a weird side note, with the way that elven healing is tied to the source, and the low province levels.

How about allowing elves to muster up to the source level instead of law? That will allow veteran and all the other needed training to get established from unit muster.

[geeman]

At 04:47 AM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>The Sidhe are immortal. I think the tradeoff for them is that they don`t

>have souls that can be called back. Instead of being like a human, who is

>somewhat seperate from his or her immortal soul, I imagine the elf as a

>soul embodied in flesh.

>

>So what does happen when the flesh is destroyed? Is the elf`s spirit also

>destroyed?

>

>I tend to think of it as disrupted, and the energies dispersed back into

>the surrounding mebhaighal. Thus, that spirit`s individual identity is

>lost. So no reincarnation or resurrection.



I`m working on a piece that addresses this kind of thing. (I know, I`ve

mentioned it before, but I really am! It`s coming soon, I swear!) The

basic idea of the "Death: The Final Adventure" stuff will be that the

"energy" of souls must be balanced between the world of light (or the

"world of life") and its mirror image, the Shadow World (symbolically the

"world of death" for BR.) Mortal souls provide the balancing energies as

they traverse the SW on their way to planes beyond. During this process

the souls are "tested" by various ordeals that not only strip them of their

mortal selves and concerns, a process that also releases "life energies"

that balance the equation between the two realities. Whether this release

of energies is the point of the ordeals or whether it is a byproduct of the

process that prepares soul for the afterlife is a matter of conjecture.



After discussing the issue with various folks in the BR community, I

decided that elves do not have "immortal souls" in the sense that mortals

do--borrowing fairly liberally from JRRT. In the context of the D:tFA

stuff, elves` souls will remain in the world of light. The souls of dark

elves (those Sidhe who reside in the SW) will remain there. Whether they

are reabsorbed back into the energies of the plane or if they come back

spontaneously in elven form, or whether they become part of the energies

that fuel mebhaighal I haven`t really addressed yet, and I don`t think I`ll

need to for the scope of the actual piece, but it`s an interesting point

and one that might fit in somewhere.



Whether a soul remains in the material world or passes on to realms beyond

doesn`t necessarily mean it cannot be raised, resurrected or reincarnated,

but it could be used as a justification for allowing or disallowing one or

the other for each race.



I have two character write ups I want to finish and then the D:tFA stuff....



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Very interesting Gary, I had similar thoughts a while back.

I had the idea that the dead souls passed through the Shadow World on their way to the afterlife and that those who still held to their mortal lives were trapped and became undead, while the rest passed on to a hall of judgement. Here the worthiness of their lives were judged, and those found worthy were allowed to enter the realms of their chosen god. Those found unworthy were returned to Cerilia to be reincarnated in a new life, and those found to have betrayed their gods were cast into a great ocean and left there for enterinty.

Some of my ideas can be found in the BRCS (page 86-87), but that section does need some work IMO.

[Osprey]

Those found unworthy were returned to Cerilia to be reincarnated in a new life, and those found to have betrayed their gods were cast into a great ocean and left there for enterinty.


I think the judgement on the betrayers shouldn&#39;t be stated, but left to the imagination. I imagine far more individualized punishments for betrayers, should they ever face their former gods. You see, most who would betray their god switch allegiance to another power, and thus no longer fall under their former god&#39;s jurisdiction. The Vos after Deismaar, for example, would fall under the judgement of Kreisha and Belinik; Vorynn (and Ruornil subsequently) lost their power of judgement when the people turned to another master. Sad, but it rings true.

Osprey

[Osprey]

After discussing the issue with various folks in the BR community, I
decided that elves do not have "immortal souls" in the sense that mortals
do--borrowing fairly liberally from JRRT. In the context of the D:tFA
stuff, elves` souls will remain in the world of light. The souls of dark
elves (those Sidhe who reside in the SW) will remain there. Whether they
are reabsorbed back into the energies of the plane or if they come back
spontaneously in elven form, or whether they become part of the energies
that fuel mebhaighal I haven`t really addressed yet, and I don`t think I`ll
need to for the scope of the actual piece, but it`s an interesting point
and one that might fit in somewhere.
[Geeman]

If elves don&#39;t have immortal souls, then why do then discuss them as if they did? If they don&#39;t have souls, then there is no life after death, right? Life after death is a concept directly contingent upon having a soul. If there&#39;s a different metaphysical reason behind the elves&#39; spirits sticking around, I&#39;d like to hear it.

[Osprey]

I like the ideas, but I wonder about taking this to the next level.


What is the healing rate for elven units?

Would they regenerate W hit(s) per war move in a source (X)? Or (1+Y) per amount over source (Z)

And as a weird side note, with the way that elven healing is tied to the source, and the low province levels.

How about allowing elves to muster up to the source level instead of law? That will allow veteran and all the other needed training to get established from unit muster.

First of all, rapid healing doesn&#39;t equal training facilities and experience. I think it&#39;s fine that law remains the standard for elven mustering, considering that elves can raise their provincial and holding levels without damaging the source potential. That&#39;s already powerful enough, and if they still need to train beyond that, well...what have leves got but time to train?

As for healing units...that&#39;s a tricky one, for sure. Because damage to units equals casualties, not just wounds. Perhaps this could work:

Elven units in a source 5+ province (the rapid healing minimum) can heal 1 hit of damage after spending a week (one War Move) there. However, if the unit has sustained more than 1 hit in a single battle, any additional damage must be healed normally (long rest in a garrison, where permanent losses can be replaced).

That&#39;s my best answer in terms of realism.

Osprey

[Osprey]

What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can&#39;t heal elves.

[Vallariel]

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 17 2003, 09:11 AM
What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can&#39;t heal elves.
That is a very good explanation.

But then one must define soul. For to me, an elf has soul.
Def: 1.n. The immortal part of man as distinguished from his body. The moral and emotional nature of man as distinguised from his mind.The vital principle which moves and animates all life.A human being. (I ignore this part since the dictionary wasn&#39;t made to represent humans and elves.lol.)Personification or embodiment.Emotional expressiveness that appeals for emotional response in others.
But if one were to take the first part, and say ok, humans only (and lol, the human being part too. :rolleyes: ) what then &#39;is&#39; The vital principle which moves and animates all life for the Sidhelien?


Or he could just place lots of plants in pots around the elf (); an alternative would be to place an elf in a small glade. This latter enhances drama and role-playing, in the need to get their friend into a forest before it is too late&#33;
ROFLMAO&#33; Very funny. In my minds eye, I can see an outdoor balcony, a lot of sunshine, and one dying elf, lying surrounded by potted palms and miniature roses, in terracotta pots....


Since the elves look on the gods as something akin to powerful humans, my
question would be along these line: if you were laying in a puddle of your own blood and guts and a very skilled surgeon came along and said "I can heal you, but I should warn you that I believe in the Great Grax whom you despise. Should I leave you to die or fix you?" Unless you happen to be one of those odd aberrant the odds are overwhelming that you will take the healing.
There is a saying in medicine: There are no atheists in the OR and no technophobes among the terminally ill.
That Randy, is probably very true. But ahhh to roleplay (to death..lol...) the endless moral dilema.... To make your PC come up with a TRUE (and good) reason (justification?) he could accept such healing...
Endless potential.... :D
Karen

[Vallariel]

I don&#39;t think an elf should be able to be raised, resurrected or reincarnated.

Otherwise where is the tragedy of the loss of immortal life?

Truely though, I don&#39;t think anyone, except in the most amazing of divine circumstances, should ever be.

[RaspK_FOG]

I like the idea Justinius_ExMortis came up with (and I, in turn, am glad you liked my ideas). The concept of having an elven child be born after a year in responce to the death of another elf is really fascinating; the loss of identity would then of course be crucial, but imagine the dramatic storylines (not tragic, mind you) that the individual DM could come up with&#33;

I am proposing that Sidhe reincarnate only as a flavour device; I am not the Elf Lover some of my friends really are, even if I like them. To me, BR simply made all races seem as if drawn from the Realms of Fantasy, unlike the more two-dimensional standard races we have in other campaign settings.

[geeman]

At 06:35 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



> If elves don`t have immortal souls, then why do then discuss them as if

> they did? If they don`t have souls, then there is no life after death,

> right? Life after death is a concept directly contingent upon having a

> soul. If there`s a different metaphysical reason behind the elves`

> spirits sticking around, I`d like to hear it.



I should note that there`s not a lot of stuff to support this in the BR

materials. It is my own extrapolation that I`m basing on a few hints here

and there, and some influence from other fantasy authors and real world

myths and metaphysics.



The terms here are more than a little vague, so let me first give some

definitions for the purpose of this discussion:



Life Force: The motivating power that animates a living being (as opposed

to a magical energy that might animate a golem, skeleton, etc.)



Soul: A life force that passes on to other planes after death.



Spirit: A life force that remains in the material world after death.



Both souls and spirits are life forces. Either a soul or a spirit will

give a person "life". We could also posit some sort of "anti-soul" that

motivates the intelligent undead, but that`s not going to really enter into

this particular discussion.



For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and

other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means

that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world

and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means

that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material

plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the

material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures

who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane

(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.



However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,

where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between

a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world

while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like

the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body

(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work

depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but

arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really

something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and

a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is

potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.



What I am interested in are the differences in earthly manifestations

between the two kinds of creatures, and how those things might effect the

role-play and game mechanics of those characters. Spirits might

spontaneously (to that extent that anything regarding a soul is

spontaneous, that is) return to life without a spell, but in a different,

earth-bound form. What if one of the aspects of the elven love of nature

is that they are guarding the spirits of their dead returned in plant and

animal form? That would certainly explain their animosity towards races

that chop down trees. What advantages might elves have (other than

remaining ever young) gain from their closer connection to the material

world? Several of these are already described for elves, but with a more

articulated metaphysical system for their differences from human, what

others might make sense or which of their existing ones might need review?



Gary

[geeman]

At 07:11 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal

>soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can`t heal elves.



I like the idea (if coupled with a rapid healing for elves when in a

natural environment) and I think it could also be used as an explanation

for why they can`t be priests. I`ve always preferred the interpretation

that elves can`t be priests, but that an elf can. That is, that as a

campaign setting`s core material an elven priest was "ruled out" because

allowing it in the rules amounts to providing a demographic of such

characters. The few elves who worship the gods (as is described in the

Tuarhieval SB) don`t register on the "core setting rules" scale. The

original materials BTW are full of individuals who break the "rules" of

both D&D and the setting itself. Vos paladins, Khinasi necromancers,

etc. An elf priest isn`t a particular stretch given BR tendancy to violate

its own tenets. If divine magics are tied to an immortal soul (as opposed

to an earth-bound spirit) it might make for a more definite prohibition

against elven priests.



There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by

healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine

magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive

divine spells?



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I think this would not be too good:
Reincarnation rate: 1 year/ECL

This might as well be true for half-elves, but this would need a lot more discussion... What do you think?

[RaspK_FOG]

For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and
other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means
that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world
and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means
that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material
plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the
material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures
who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane
(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.

However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,
where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between
a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world
while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like
the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body
(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work
depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but
arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really
something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and
a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is
potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.

So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own races), that seems to be a good idea.


There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive
divine spells?

I don&#39;t think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul of the target, and where it does, I don&#39;t think it would really be much to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was always easier than mending them, don&#39;t you think so?

[kgauck]

How often does one encounter clerics wanting to heal elves? This seems

about as neccesary as figuring out which gods in Cerilia gnomes worship.



I`ve always imposed penalties on healing friendly, then neutral, and

prohibited healing of hostile faithful. During my Baruk-Azhik campaign,

this created some interesting healing situations between dwarves and humans.

And I regarded Moradin and Haelyn as friendly.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 12:42 AM 9/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:



> So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle

> Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of

> the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own

> races), that seems to be a good idea.



In some of the macro themes, yes, I think that`s pretty much it. I find a

lot more direct relationships between BR and JRRT than in most other

campaign settings. I admit, however, that I`m something of a

Tolkienista. Though I like the particulars of BR, what I like most about

them is that they in many ways reference LotR and other influential pieces

of fantasy fiction. BR does fuse things like Tolkien`s elves with

Highlander`s quickening (bloodtheft) but where ever possible it makes sense

to me to keep as much of the "original" as possible since that not only

illustrates their origin, but how well the cross over into other material.



Of course, there are some special differences. I picture the role of the

SW in BR being much more profound and direct than in ME--even if the SW

does kind of look like the faded world that Frodo sees when he puts on the

Ring....



>
There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being

> uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to

> other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to

> offensive

> divine spells?

>

> I don`t think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul

> of the target, and where it does, I don`t think it would really be much

> to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was

> always easier than mending them, don`t you think so?



That makes some sense. Divine spells that are evocative would seem to not

interact with a soul or spirit much. In the same way that elves have

bonuses against enchantment spells, however, it might be prudent to look at

those schools to determine if they should have bonuses in other areas.



Gary

[Justinius_ExMortis]

I can agree that healing doesn&#39;t affect Elves due to a lack of an actual soul (BTW I totally agree with idea that Elves possess a spirit as their animating force and all other mortal creatures possess a soul) as it&#39;s easy to say that divine healing is very much an interaction between the healers god and the healee&#39;s soul and body. I also agree that offensive divine magics can affect an Elf for a variety of reasons. The easiest being that afflicting someone with a wound, leprosy, or being struck with lightning really doesn&#39;t involve a connection to the targets soul. The second being that I have always seen divine magic being a part of that dieties divine essence gifted to the cleric in a particualr form for use as the spell that form reflects. This makes excellent reasoning for spontaneous casing of healing spells because good gods are be default creative and restorative forces, seeking stability and creation (I&#39;m open for any philosophical comments on stability and creation working as a twin process). As a god should be aware; generally; of what his divine essence is doing I think it not too far fetched to say that a god be inclined to say no to healing an Elven ally due to this same allies&#39; lack of faith and say yes to crushing an elven opponent with great strokes of lightning.


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master

[Osprey]

This makes excellent reasoning for spontaneous casing of healing spells because good gods are be default creative and restorative forces, seeking stability and creation (I&#39;m open for any philosophical comments on stability and creation working as a twin process).

Creative and restorative, yes - that works with Good. But stability is definitely the province of Law. I don&#39;t imagine chaotic good deities like Laerme and Cuiraecen are overly dedicated to or concerened about stability as much as fighting the good fight on a personal level (in each their own ways).


As a god should be aware; generally; of what his divine essence is doing I think it not too far fetched to say that a god be inclined to say no to healing an Elven ally due to this same allies&#39; lack of faith and say yes to crushing an elven opponent with great strokes of lightning.


Although the gods might sometimes be aware of their followers&#39; action, I don&#39;t see clerical spells being cast as if the clerics were direct conduits straight from the gods. Why, then, would they need to pray each day and prepare spells? I think of D&D clerical magic as more like a contract between priest and deity (very much in the spirit of traditional Judaism), wherein the priest is entrusted with a degree of power and autonomy (i.e., he selects his spells for the day, and the god generally grants them unless the cleric has breached the contract). I think the god and his cleric might "discuss" the issue of elves, but somehow I don&#39;t believe that all of the Cerilian deities would begrudge aiding elves simply out of racial prejudice.

Osprey

[Osprey]

Gary,
I like the distinction between souls and spirits. It is Tolkien-based, but so are Cerilian elves, and so were the original D&D elves (who had lifespans around 1200+ years; nigh-immortal, anyways). Of course, even Tolkien wasn&#39;t truly original; the Sidhe of Gaelic folklore are very old and ingrained in that tradition (but I&#39;ve already ranted on that before, and won&#39;t go into it again).

What I would propose to add to the "spirit" list are the other Sylvan creatures of Cerilia (whichever ones exist there; I don&#39;t have the list in front of me). I would consider those close cousins of the Sidhe; much closer than humans, in fact.

And to that end, I would give the Sidhe the Sylvan racial type rather than humanoid, and stop treating them like demihumans altogether. They&#39;re wild and fae-ish anyways, so why not call a spade a spade?

-Osprey

[geeman]

At 05:39 AM 9/18/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>I would give the Sidhe the Sylvan racial type rather than humanoid, and

>stop treating them like demihumans altogether. They`re wild and fae-ish

>anyways, so why not call a spade a spade?



Yeah, they should be included in the category of creatures who have a

"spirit" like dryads, sprites, nymphs, brownies, and similar beasties

rather than the more human-like elves of standard D&D.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Something new to D&D (with 3rd ed) was that in order to be raised or resurrected the soul has to "want to be raised".

Now since cerilian elves are for the most part "one-with nature" and that since death is the end of things that their souls wouldn&#39;t want to come back back. Just my 2 cps.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:33 PM





> Creative and restorative, yes - that works with Good. But stability

> is definitely the province of Law. I don`t imagine chaotic good deities

> like Laerme and Cuiraecen are overly dedicated to or concerened

> about stability as much as fighting the good fight on a personal level

> (in each their own ways).



In these specific cases, I would disagree. Both of these two gods do fight

for stability in their ultimate purposes. What makes them chaotic is not

their personal goals, but their tactics, their methods, and the very nature

of their portfolios. Cuiraecen is specifically identified as Haelyn`s

champion, so I think priests of Cuiraecen as well are open to the appeals of

Haelyn`s teachings as to goals, even the most lawful ones. Its just that

they won`t be able to carry out the most lawful tactics and will be drawn

toward the use of the most risky, unsettling, and destabilizing solutions,

like fighting tyrany by deposing, by confronting outlaws in battle. Laerme

is less formally connected to the purposes of her mother, but Avani is

listed as her superior and her only ally (other than her sometime lover).

So I rather believe that the same kind of subordination of chaotic tactics

for lawful ends is at work. Avani and Haelyn set the broad agenda, and

Cuiraecen and Laerme support those goals with their own kind of tactics and

means to lawful ends.



One of the reasons that there is no conflict here (other than the connection

of parent and offspring) is that the over-riding struggle in the divine

sphere is between good and evil, and so the conflict between law and chaos

is less compelling. Consider that Kriesha and Avani are total enemies,

despite being only removed in alignment by one step, while Avani and Sera

are mearly cool to one another despite being of diametricaly opposed

alignments. The fundamental conflict is on the good-evil axis, and for this

we can thank Azrai.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

KGauck,
You know, you&#39;re right. You made some good points that are definitely backed up by the literature.

And it got me thinking...there&#39;s just too much "good" in the pantheon, and in Anuire in particular. But this thread&#39;s about the Sidhe, so check out the thread on "Good and Evil in Anuire" in the Royal Library, and we can continue the discussion there.

-Osprey

[geeman]

At 01:19 PM 9/18/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> Now since cerilian elves are for the most part "one-with

> nature" and that since death is the end of things that their souls

> wouldn`t want to come back back. Just my 2 cps.



That`s a possibility, though I think most of that kind of thing is beyond

our ken.... One could make the same argument for the soul of a mortal that

passes on to "heaven" or whatever final resting place they would arrive at,

right? Returning souls could, arguably, be ones that "have work left

unfinished" in the material world for either case, or those whose earthly

incarnation lent itself to the desire to remain "alive" as long as possible

for some reason.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I think that, besides all else, Elves are a bit too invidualistic, to the point of being a little selfish at times...

If that is not a reason to get on with your former life when you lost eternity in untimely death (that does sound weird, doesn&#39;t it?), what is?

[Osprey]

I believe there are 2 aspects to consider for the elven (or any other race&#39;s) afterlife:

1) What is the default tendency for the deceased spirits (or souls) when the body dies?

2) What are the metaphysical limitations? i.e., what are the actual range of possibilities?


I think the earlier idea of reincarnation is a good one for elven spirits. Several good ideas were postulated: coming back as new elven children, as trees in the elven forests, as other fae creatures, and even as woodland animals.

One idea inspired by Orson Scott Card (2nd book of Ender&#39;s Game) might work really well here: when an elf dies, his spirit is taken up by a sapling planted at his grave. The spirit dwells within the tree for the life of the tree (which might be a thousand years or more; quite reasonable for an elf), and it is only when the tree dies that the spirit is released to be reborn in the next elven infant.

There are all kinds of interesting corollaries here. How did the tree die? If of natural causes, the Sidhe spirit will likely be reborn as a healthy, "typical" elf. But if the tree were cut down or (worse) burned by unnatural causes (like humans or goblins), we have a plausible explanation why some elves might be born with a darker streak - such as the elves born in Rhuobe&#39;s domain, or those who feel an instinctual hatred of humans despite being born long after the first wars with humans.

In fact, this might very well set up a much more subtle variety of drk elves in Cerilia. Not the subterranean, black-skinned light haters of FR, but more like the Unseelie fae. A dark but still natural aspect of the Sidhelien.

IMO, nature is neither good nor evil, and thus elves may fall on either side of that continuum without necessarilly sacrificing their ties to nature. Dabbling in necromancy, on the other hand, is distinctly unnatural, and might have serious consequences for the spirit of such a dabbler - perhaps even severing their natural connection to the land. Perhaps they would even lose thier immortality and healing, leaving transformation (into lichdom, for example) as the only means of regaining their timelessness. Yet more reasons (beyond the social stigmas) to avoid necromancy and dabbling with the Shadow World.

As for metaphysical limitations, I remain in staunch support that elves not only have spirits, but ARE spirits and low-ranking divine beings in their own right (hence the Sylvan racial template). If a part of them remains an immortal spirit, that works.

I definitely like the idea that an elf who dies outside of a strong source of mebhaighal (using the above model) might very well not return as she should. Whether the spirit simply dissolves and is lost, or is swallowed up into the Shadow World and becomes an undead shade (Cerilian spectres might very well be lost elven spirits, corrupted by the taint of the SW), or something else entirely, remains a source for rich ideas and storylines.

For those of you exploring the idea of where the sentient undead come from, well...elves who die in "foreign wars" might very well form a significant chunk of that population.

-Osprey

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, irdeggman wrote:



> Now since cerilian elves are for the most part "one-with nature" and

> that since death is the end of things that their souls wouldn`t want

> to come back back.



On the contrary, I would say that since the Sidhelien are naturally

immortal, there is nothing more natural to a dead one than resurrection.





Ryan Caveney

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ryancaveney@Sep 26 2003, 04:34 PM
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, irdeggman wrote:



> Now since cerilian elves are for the most part "one-with nature" and

> that since death is the end of things that their souls wouldn`t want

> to come back back.



On the contrary, I would say that since the Sidhelien are naturally

immortal, there is nothing more natural to a dead one than resurrection.





Ryan Caveney


Hmm so elves are very much into tampering with the natural progression of things - dust to dust, etc. Resurection isn&#39;t a &#39;bending&#39; of natural laws but a total rewriting of them.

Erik doesn&#39;t promote resurrection and as stated before the elven philosophy is very much akin to his outlook.

There was something about elves who just gave up living because it was time and just faded away. It might have been in one of those dreaded PS. But the concept seems to follow along with the standard elven one, that to everything there is a time.

[Osprey]

I think Resurrection (and Raise Dead & True Res.) should be the rarest of rare powers. If I had my way, bringing back the dead would be limited to the Miracle spell, and cost a fat amount of XP (1000xp per level of the character being raised seems reasonable) to keep it a rare-use power. I mean, really, can you think of a much more miraculous event for mortals?

Ryan, you have a point...although elves are connected to nature, they also defy the natural cycle by being immortal. So death only comes as the result of some violent, unnatural event.

However, I don&#39;t see Resurrection as being any more acceptable than dying. If it did happen, I would want it to be a legendary event with a very special storyline around it.

But if it&#39;s impossible to raise elves from the dead, it does leave open storylines for desperate elven necromancers trying to revive lost brethren, but coming up with rather corrupt results. Stephen R. Donaldson&#39;s Illearth trilogy provides some good inspiration there (Book 3, where the Archmage Elena tries to call back the ancient archmage-hero Kevin Landwaster, and gets only a weaker shade instead, who is easily corrupted by Lord Foul...a powerful story).

-Osprey

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 12:15 PM



> I think Resurrection (and Raise Dead & True Res.) should

> be the rarest of rare powers.



My solutuion is to make these effects temporary. The souls of great heros

have heroic things to do in the afterlife. Would you rather adventure in

the physical world where the king gives you direction, or in the afterlife

for cosmic stakes in which your direction comes from your patron diety? Not

only would the raised character have the sad dispossition of Lasurus, but

they would be eager to get back to the realm of the afterlife to continue

their real work. So it might be fun to have an old character return for an

episode as a guest star (and the sudden intrusion of TV terminology is

intentional) and then return to the afterlife for cosmic campaigns.

Likewise, if one visited the Shadow World, one might encounter an old friend

on just such a mission. Imagine the party who confronts their old druidic

friend, Olfjor of the blue sash, in the shadow world. They ask him to join

him on their mission, but he refuses for the forces of Azrai will not wait.

The party is stunned: "Is the rise of Azrai more than just speculation?"

"Indeed," Olfjor replies before giving the characters some useful bit of

information about their quest before running off to battle some minion of

Azrai. It certainly would add weight to the notion that dead PC`s have

better things to do than come back and worry about this kingdom or that

treasure.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Kenneth there is something that you pointed out that conflicts with the 3/3.5 rules. A character cannot be raised or resurrected if the soulddoesn&#39;t wish to come back, i.e., this condition cannot be &#39;forced&#39;.

Since you point out that the elves (actually I guess you were referring to all sentients here) would likely have &#39;heroic things to do in the afterlife&#39; and &#39;they would be eager to get back to the realmof the afterlife to continue their real work&#39;.

This leads to why elves (in Cerilia) can&#39;t (or wouldn&#39;t) be raised from the dead. They simply view the transition as a change or metmorphisis to something different that has a &#39;greater calling&#39;, hence they wouldn&#39;t &#39;allow themselves&#39; to be raised.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:56 PM



> Kenneth there is something that you pointed out that conflicts

> with the 3/3.5 rules. A character cannot be raised or resurrected

> if the soulddoesn`t wish to come back, i.e., this condition cannot

> be `forced`.



This is fine if we are talking about NPC`s, but former player characters

(like perhaps the one who died earlier in the game session) players need a

motivation to so wish. Otherwise we are back to permenent PC resurrection

for the lost character. Temporary return satisfies the desire to bring he

PC back, at least for a key mission. The idea of afterlife missions even

allows yout to run such missions, which offer something for players.

Players want to play their characters, so few will not simply return without

some motivation to stay dead.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

Ken,
Just wanted to tell you that I really like your "heroic duties" afterlife idea. Very cool.

IMO, the jury&#39;s still out on whether or not elves have an "afterlife" at all, but for mortals with souls the concept of the immortal soul being involved in a greater struggle is awesome for story-driven reasoning behind limited recall of dead characters. Well done&#33;

-Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

Kenneth: B)

[Caine]

Hi&#33;

Just a couple of thoughts to add to the pool.

Thanks Osprey I like the healing based on ambient magic. That&#39;s a very neat idea. :lol:

The elves of Cerillia are definately weird. Firstly they&#39;re half a species (see shadow world creature compendium, available for download from Wizards). Their other side resides in the SW and is collectively referred to as the fae.

Now the cool bit is that the fae can do divine magic. They don&#39;t call on gods, though the queen of the Seelie court is pretty godlike, and they can cure themselves with the spells available to them.

My thoughts run a little like this. Cerillia really sticks out in the world of Aebrynis. It&#39;s inhabitants have always had something of a magical nature (even the goblins are Irish gnomes, small (for the most part), nasty & dirty)

When the world split and the SW was formed the Sidhe were split into two distinct species, Sidhelien & Fae. Each of these took one aspect of the original creature with it. This would indicate to me that the original was a creature of magic made manifest (it could pretty much learn to do any magical effect)

Stipulating that elves aren&#39;t normally affected by cure spells. My explanation runs like this. Cure spells are generally described as a positive life giving energy influx that fixes you up, peps your life up and leaves you feeling better all over (hps are more than health). Anyway it&#39;s an influx of external energies into you. Now this is not a bad way of looking at a lot of the Divine spells. Your god pulls stuff from the planes and makes it work for you.

Now my idea i s that the Sidhelien are the part of the original creature most closely bound to Aebrynis&#39;s Prime material plane aspect whilst the fae are the more otherworldly part. The Sidhelien find themselves incapable or at least very disadvantaged in the handling of energies external to their world whilst the fae are fine with them.

Well it&#39;s not much but let me know what you think.

As to death & the soul...

The novel Great Heart (sorry for those of you who may not like this, it is a little sappy) tells us that at least some of the elves believe that they become stars upon their deaths and claim that this is backed up by the stories of their oldest times. "Dragon meet elf, Dragon eat elf, Elves&#39; mates get upset & bash on Dragon, loads of people die. Hey what are those lights in the sky?"
According to this belief all immortals (Dragons, Elves, others?) become stars upon their deaths.

Silly possibly but it does indicate that at least the elves think they have a continuance after death and it doesn&#39;t really seem to involve the SW. Some elves get caught there and become ghostlike, but that isn&#39;t the norm.

This does seem to tie in quite nicely of the Sidhelien being plane-bound. There was also some comment about the dead elves carrying on the struggle against the dragons & other now deceased immortals in the sky for dominance of the world (maybe they just don&#39;t like each other :P ). Hence falling stars being the aftermath of a pretty vicious fight.

Once again let me know what you think.

Cheers&#33; :)

Jan
Archmage of the Order

[Osprey]

Now my idea i s that the Sidhelien are the part of the original creature most closely bound to Aebrynis&#39;s Prime material plane aspect whilst the fae are the more otherworldly part. The Sidhelien find themselves incapable or at least very disadvantaged in the handling of energies external to their world whilst the fae are fine with them.


Interesting...I&#39;d never heard the theory of the elves and fae "splitting" with the division of the material and shadow worlds. It&#39;s a neat concept.

Ive always thought of mebhaighal as being the essential energy of the material world of Aebrynis. Which ties in nicely with elves being so closely linked to the ebb and flow of mebhaighal.

I imagine the Shadow World is permeated directly by the Negative and Positive Material Planes, whereas the material world is divided by the same barrier that seperates the Shadow World. Hence the reason why there are priests who need special talents in contacting their deities and the divine energies they can access (spells + turning) are limited by their faith and skill.

So it makes sense in this cosmology that natives of the SW (like your fae) handle these divine energies very naturally, because they are in fact partly composed of these energies (just as the Sidhe might be made of mebhaighal, at least in part). That&#39;s my running theory, anyways.

P.S. - Do you have a link to the SW creature compendium? Finding things on the Wizards site can be a real pain...

-Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

Caine: B)

I think these (as well as any other future) ideas will make up a good list of variants...

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by Justinius_ExMortis@Sep 17 2003, 03:02 AM
I think no resurrection is appropriate as resurrection is an unnatural procedure, but a flow of energies into the next acceptable receptacle? I think that&#39;s very acceptable. The loss of identity is also a given, but Elves are a part of the natural world and the energies that create that. I could very easily see the same "flavor" energies manifesting in an Elven child and ever so slightly influencing the paths that child will follow both through psychology and choices of profession, spouse, style of home, etc.

As for balance, I think loss of identity and such is very balancing, the energy is the same but the mind is different. Also the loss of an Elven soul outside of Source rich lands makes for a deadly balance, not only has this soul been lost but the maximum possible Elven numbers is forever reduced by one. The decline of the race as a whole is one of the most dramatic and saddening elements of the Elven psychology. I luv it.


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master
Ahh excuse me balance? What is balanced about all other characters being instantly healed or being able to be resurrected and elves having no ability to instantly heal and no ability to be raise from the dead? You put in that reincaration with total lose of identity is equivelent? I think not

And whats this idea with games trying to "blaalce" the benifits of being immortal? What benifit do elves get for being immortal? They dont get more levels (most games say the immortal characters are not pressed to learn quickly so dont and thus you maybe a few hundred years old but you havent felt the need to learn as quickly as morals who&#39;s lite burns bright but quickly. Almost all games make immortality a HUGE deal but give nothing for it? What advantage do elves get for being timeless? [ the immunity to age effects is nothing as well because most spells dont creat age effects] Most DM/GM wont allow a player to create a veneralble imortal character thus gaining all teh mental bonuses and non of the physical penalties. So I ask what advantage do you thin being immortal gives you? and why arent those advanatages in game?

This isnt just directed at Justinius&#39; post but this whole notion that elves have to be "balance" for being immortal. The idea of taking away their ability to get instant healing from divine sources and the idea that some how an hourly regen rate is "too powerful" is laughable. All this to balance their immortality well WHAT advantage do immortal elves get in gamefor being specificly imortal? The timeless advanatage is teh only one I can think of but that advantage is sooo limiting its hardly worth a mention. I can hardly think of a single time in any published adventure where death via old age magic was possible or even where unnatural aging was even a factor.

I&#39;m simply trying to point out that the human desire to live forever doesnt translate into an actual ingame advantage.

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 18 2003, 12:35 AM
At 12:42 AM 9/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:



> So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle

> Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of

> the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own

> races), that seems to be a good idea.



In some of the macro themes, yes, I think that`s pretty much it. I find a

lot more direct relationships between BR and JRRT than in most other

campaign settings. I admit, however, that I`m something of a

Tolkienista. Though I like the particulars of BR, what I like most about

them is that they in many ways reference LotR and other influential pieces

of fantasy fiction. BR does fuse things like Tolkien`s elves with

Highlander`s quickening (bloodtheft) but where ever possible it makes sense

to me to keep as much of the "original" as possible since that not only

illustrates their origin, but how well the cross over into other material.



Of course, there are some special differences. I picture the role of the

SW in BR being much more profound and direct than in ME--even if the SW

does kind of look like the faded world that Frodo sees when he puts on the

Ring....



>
There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being

> uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to

> other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to

> offensive

> divine spells?

>

> I don`t think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul

> of the target, and where it does, I don`t think it would really be much

> to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was

> always easier than mending them, don`t you think so?



That makes some sense. Divine spells that are evocative would seem to not

interact with a soul or spirit much. In the same way that elves have

bonuses against enchantment spells, however, it might be prudent to look at

those schools to determine if they should have bonuses in other areas.



Gary













Tolkien elves CANT DIE PERIOD&#33; They are truely immortal and when they are killed by violance in middle eaith they go to the halls of waiting where they wait for the end of the world as LIVING beings. This is totaly seperate from the sidhe which are not immortal but rather ageless. Tolkien elves are truely immortal you cant truely kill them you can only transport them to teh halls of waiting which were before the fall a numenor on the same planet as the continent of middle earth. It wasnt until teh Nemenorieans invaded the undying lands did the valar plead with ERU to move teh undying lands to a seperate dimention. The key difference between men and elves is that elves must life out their lives for ever either in middle earth/ in teh undying lands or in the halls of waiting which is located in the undying lands. Men are not doomed to continue living their lives they die and their soul are release from their bodies to await judgement from ERU. For man death is a realease and a gift for elves death isnt a release for they dont really die they just are tranplanted in they same body to the halls of waiting. The elven gift is immortality but they are also trapped by their gift. Death in no release.

Therefore the Sidhe of BR dont in anyway fit teh tolkien elves except that they both are "immortal".

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by Justinius_ExMortis@Sep 18 2003, 03:08 AM
I can agree that healing doesn&#39;t affect Elves due to a lack of an actual soul (BTW I totally agree with idea that Elves possess a spirit as their animating force and all other mortal creatures possess a soul) as it&#39;s easy to say that divine healing is very much an interaction between the healers god and the healee&#39;s soul and body. I also agree that offensive divine magics can affect an Elf for a variety of reasons. The easiest being that afflicting someone with a wound, leprosy, or being struck with lightning really doesn&#39;t involve a connection to the targets soul. The second being that I have always seen divine magic being a part of that dieties divine essence gifted to the cleric in a particualr form for use as the spell that form reflects. This makes excellent reasoning for spontaneous casing of healing spells because good gods are be default creative and restorative forces, seeking stability and creation (I&#39;m open for any philosophical comments on stability and creation working as a twin process). As a god should be aware; generally; of what his divine essence is doing I think it not too far fetched to say that a god be inclined to say no to healing an Elven ally due to this same allies&#39; lack of faith and say yes to crushing an elven opponent with great strokes of lightning.


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master
Ok so what exactly is the conection to healing the body and the woundeds soul? In almost every religion what I know of the body soul connection id distinquished by its distint difference between the wounds of teh body and the damage to teh soul. What hurts one doesnt hurt the other and vise versa and what heals the body doesnt heal teh soul. So why then would divine healing not work and if we agree to teh premis that is doesnt work why would divine magics of an offensive nature work? If you have already made teh conection to teh body and the soul for the benifits of healing power why is that body-soul conection gone for things that damage the body?

There hasnt yet been a reasoned explenation why healing powers are so connected to teh soul when the prinsible of the seperation between body and soul are actually apart of D&D. If I kill teh body with cause light wounds I dont inturn kill the soul. Yet if teh conection is made then why arenot elves immune from direct damage of clereical attacks?

i&#39;m not saying they should be i find the whole idea of elves being immune to divine healing as a bad idea as would immunity from clerical direct damaged spells.

The fact that elves dont have clerics of their own is penalty enough,. DO we really need to add the inability to be healed by divine magic to this? What benifit do elves gain for this no divine healing? an hourly healing rate is not balancing benifit as I have been saved more than once with every character I&#39;ve everplayed who lasted past 1st level, by the instant healing properties of a clerical spell. Just think of how many battles your character would have died if the party cleric hadnt healed you during the battle itself?

Yet people want to create a huge penalty to elves just for a small ability? hourly regen is not a great advantage and is extremely under powered when come pared to teh penalty. No resorection to what offset immortality again I ask what is teh advantage to being immortal that all these penalties need to be place on elves?

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1956

> Airgedok wrote:

...

> And whats this idea with games trying to "blaalce" the benifits of being immortal?

What benifit do elves get for being immortal? They dont get more

levels (most games say the

immortal characters are not pressed to learn quickly so dont and thus

you maybe a few hundred

years old but you havent felt the need to learn as quickly as morals

who`s lite burns bright but

> quickly. Almost all games make immortality a HUGE deal but give

nothing for it? What advantage

> do elves get for being timeless? [ the immunity to age effects is

nothing as well because most

>spells dont creat age effects] Most DM/GM wont allow a player to

create a veneralble imortal

>character thus gaining all teh mental bonuses and non of the physical

penalties. So I ask what

>advantage do you thin being immortal gives you? and why arent those

advanatages in game?



A venerable sidhelien Birthrihgt character would gain no advantages of

being venerable, he would avoid the penaltys of being venerable. He is

timeless, never changing. So aging effects have no effect on him,

neither positive, nor negative.



So yes, in a short game, like most PBEM´s being a sidhelien and

therefore immortal (and looking only at his immortality) or having the

bloodability Long Live (Great) is nearly useless. However in longer

lasting games in which turns/seasons fly by fast, the shorter lived

races will have to worry about having or selecting heirs to continue the

reign over their realm. A sidhelien who established a stable rule can

rule for ages and concentrate on slowly expanding. A human whose rule

ends after 60 or 70 years and is forced to manage his dynasty, grooming

heirs, managing their ascension against possible Great Captain events

(consider William Moergen in Osoerde - if his father had long life and

did not die of age before investing William we would not have a civil

war there and Jaeson Raenech would not be ruler).

bye

Michael

[The Jew]

Has anybody reading this ever been in a game that lasted more than 40 years.

[Eosin the Red]

> The Jew wrote:

> Has anybody reading this ever been in a game that lasted more than 40 years.





Yes, but not in Birthright. I played a grandson of my original character - the game was based on ruling and domain management also - so it did have that in comman with BR.



There is a campaign set in middle earth that I am part of that has gone through more than 80 years in game and 2 decades of real time play. I have only been involved with the last 4-5 years of in game play.



Randy~Eosin

[Airgedok]

So basicly the only "advantage" that immortality has is the desire human players have in immortality. Simply because most people would desire and want to be immortal doesnt mean that a character that is immortal has some advantage over a mortal character. This idea that the sidhe dont have to worry about an heir is ironious because any wise sidhe would have an hier in case of assasination, accident or death in battle.

So i ask again what is this huge advantage that requires the sidhe to be "balanced" via excluding them from divine healing?

As for the argeument that old sidhe dont learn from their years of expience ie gain "old age" bonuses I have to laugh. What so the samething in life that make mortal races smarter and wiser cant penetrate the dim witted immortal sidhe&#39;s mind? Timeless mean time doesnt weigh upon them it doesnt mean that they are too stupid or stuborn to learn&#33; Age and experience makes people wiser and more knowledgeable in general about teh world which is why mental stats increase with age. Why would this not happen with the sidhe?

I like the sidhe but i dont think that they should walk on air and piss gold, like many people do with their favourate race. but inturn i dont think that just because some people get sick of the elven fanboi retoric that the sidhe should be brought down a peg or two.

In almost every gameing system makes immortality a huge benifit that has to be "balance" and yet in almost every gaming system the immortal gain no benifit from being immortal&#33; Dont let Birthright make teh same mistake if you deside to "balance" things out for immortal characters then give immortals benifits for being immortal.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Airgedok@Oct 13 2003, 01:02 AM

So i ask again what is this huge advantage that requires the sidhe to be "balanced" via excluding them from divine healing?


I think that you are confusing "balance" with campaign setting definition materials.

Part of the definition of the Birthright setting was that elves don&#39;t worship (or have gods), this for the most part eliminated the divine healing aspect.

If you want to deal with balance for elves and no divine healing then try the fact that elves don&#39;t need to be blooded to cast greater magic. This is a pretty significant benefit. While it wouldn&#39;t really matter to most players since for the most part they would choose to be blooded regardless, it does invike a racial balance issue - elves have far more wizards than do humans due to the fact that they don&#39;t need to be blooded in order to accomplish that, the trade off is that they can&#39;t be clerics (or druids since in BR druids are priests of Erik, again a campaign setting definition).

[RaspK_FOG]

Irdeggman: ;)

Personally, it seems that the point of Sidhelien immortality has been lost to some people. You say that they gain no benefit whatsoever? You should be aware that is elven agelessness that secures them from being affected by natural diseases, making them immune to the latter. And as for aging effects, you should consider the possibility of aging curses and effects (like the ability some ghosts have) more closely: having a human regent die to a ghost&#39;s ability to age people magically is a serious and appealing plot/game device that enhances role-playing, especially if the elf of the party is unfazed by such effects&#33; Furthermore, why should agelessness be only an advantage? In Tolkien, the Undying Folk suffered from the loss of their friends and lands, and that&#39;s what it should be like.

[Osprey]

On the adventure scale, I looked through all the 3.0 materials and realized that aging effects have been removed from the game entirely. I don&#39;t think even ghosts have this ability any more (they used to age a person 10 years at a time, which was viscious&#33;). I think they did this in conjunction with the massive shortening of PHB elven lifespans.

Regardless, I agree with RaspK that immortality quite a powerful trait - perhaps not so much from an adventurer&#39;s standpoint, where all party members start at the same level, and everyone stays "balanced," but from a campaign standpoint it gives the race a tremendous advantage in terms of individual development over a few millenia of experience.

I have no problem with elves being healed by clerical magic - it just wouldn&#39;t be a common occurence since elves don&#39;t have their own clerics, and most wouldn&#39;t want anything to do with human (or any other race&#39;s) clerics.

The attempt was to explain how elves heal themselves - the regeneration replaces "natural" (human, ec.) healing for them, so long as the source power is strong enough in the vicinity.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Oct 13 2003, 10:43 AM
Irdeggman: ;)

Personally, it seems that the point of Sidhelien immortality has been lost to some people. You say that they gain no benefit whatsoever? You should be aware that is elven agelessness that secures them from being affected by natural diseases, making them immune to the latter. And as for aging effects, you should consider the possibility of aging curses and effects (like the ability some ghosts have) more closely: having a human regent die to a ghost&#39;s ability to age people magically is a serious and appealing plot/game device that enhances role-playing, especially if the elf of the party is unfazed by such effects&#33; Furthermore, why should agelessness be only an advantage? In Tolkien, the Undying Folk suffered from the loss of their friends and lands, and that&#39;s what it should be like.
Did I say there is no benefit for being immortal? I don&#39;t recall that. I know I was focusing on the balance between no divine healing and the ability to cast greater magic.

Also, I don&#39;t believe that there are any monsters that cause aging. Ghosts cause ability damage and the haste spell doesn&#39;t even cause aging anymore.

[RaspK_FOG]

:lol: Irdeggman, I was not referring to you. Sorry for that&#33;

Ghosts no longer aging people? Must check that out... And, yes, I know spells no longer age people, but why not curses? ^_^

[Athos69]

Well with the demi-human extended lifespans, should we not see a smattering of Epic-level characters among them? If you&#39;ve got 250 years to live as a Dwarf, or (barring accident or violent death) forever as a Sidhe, I&#39;d expect the odd ruler to be Epic....

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Oct 13 2003, 01:40 PM
Well with the demi-human extended lifespans, should we not see a smattering of Epic-level characters among them? If you&#39;ve got 250 years to live as a Dwarf, or (barring accident or violent death) forever as a Sidhe, I&#39;d expect the odd ruler to be Epic....
Age has nothing to do with character levels. This is something that many people have tried to correlate over the years for elves specifically. It just doesn&#39;t work that way. Most of the long lived races have "extended youth periods" and tend to focus on things other than class type of activitites during that time. There have been some very good articles in Dragon concerning elves and dwarves and how they are raised.

If being long lived would equate to having more starting character levels then why doesn&#39;t the core rules use this concept, since even there dwarves and elves live longer and have a higher starting age than do humans?

[Athos69]

I&#39;m not sayig that all of them would -- I&#39;m raising the possibility that there may be a few (read 1-5) Epic level regents out there...

[Osprey]

If being long lived would equate to having more starting character levels then why doesn&#39;t the core rules use this concept, since even there dwarves and elves live longer and have a higher starting age than do humans?


That&#39;s an eay one to anwer - the developers were concerned with game balance first and foremost, and believability/realism takes a back seat to this. Most of the rationales for these things are just that - rationalizations for gmae-balancing mechanics. Even with longer youths, can you really imagine a young elf spending 100 years of childhood (actively) without learning more skills than the average 16+ year-old human? Are they really that dense?&#33;? Does learning simply "not stick?" And if so, why do they all of the sudden begin progressing at an equivalent rate to humans once they start adventuring?

Let&#39;s face it, the D&D core rules do a crappy job of making these things believable. I for one simply don&#39;t buy it. I haven&#39;t read any of those Dragon articles you mention, but the explanations had better be a far sight better than the typical D&D rationales of the past. They never were very believable.

So far the best rationalization for Cerilian elves not being more epic is a rather different one: time flows differently in the elven realms, and it&#39;s only when the elves leave those realms that they begin to develop at a rate similar to the rest of the world.

As for dwarves, well, I&#39;m still waiting for a good explanation for this.

Demihuman youth might very well be 1st level in terms of base attack bonus, feats, and class-based skills. There&#39;s nothing to say their training isn&#39;t roughly equivalent to humans, etc. But what about total skill sets? If the average elven child spends most of his first 100 years developing, what do they actually do? Even if we use the cliche "elven children have a carefree existence" basis, and assume that these kids spend a lot of their time singing, dancing, running through the woods playing hide and seek (and maybe occasional pranks on lost humans ;)), and probably some time being tutored by mentors, what the "typical" elven child would have would be a nice non-adventuring skill base in addition to their class-based training. For example such an elf might well have 5 or more ranks in Dance, Sing, Wilderness Lore, Hide, Move Silently, Kn: Nature, Kn: Elven History, Spot, Listen, and maybe Climb, Search, and a few others depending on mentors and local circumstances.

Naturally this would break the balance of adventure D&D, so realism must be sacrificed for the sake of the game being "fair" between players. That is what makes it distinctly a game rather than a simulation.

All of that only addresses elven children anyways. Athos&#39; point was that 2000+ year old elves might very well be epic characters, along with beings like the Gorgon (even moreso, since he started with a mortal&#39;s ambition). Lack of ambition would definitely account for a somewhat slower rate of progression for natural-born immortals, but come on...given things like elven hatred for humans, dragons, and other despoilers of the wilds, there are plenty of more motivated elves who are likely to be very, VERY bad-assed if they&#39;ve survived all this time. I think it quite plausible that there are a few epic-level elves out there, unless we&#39;re ruling that all the ambitious ones died off because of the risk they put themselves at.

Rhuobhe, on the other hand, is definitely epic IMO. Now there&#39;s an elf with definite ambition, drive, and unrelenting hatred&#33; I make him one of the fiercest awnshiegh in existence, second only to the Gorgon...at least in Anuire, I know less about the other regions&#39; awnesheigh. The Spider is just as old, true, but his decided insanity would tend to slow his learning curve quite a bit.

[Osprey]

Speaking of time flowing differently in elven realms, I wanted to post an idea I&#39;ve been working on. I&#39;ll repost this in the Royal Library under the elven source/realm thread where this discussion began.

Time flows more slowly in the elven realms, often seeming timeless altogether. The elves are reflections of their environment, and hence they are a seemingly timeless people as well. These magical realms resist the dramatic changes that nature wreaks on the outside world - one of the reasons the elven forests are virtually unchanged from their ancient forms.

There are several things that can affect this flow of time. One is the mere presence of mortals, whose own hurried sense of time, and the imprint on the mebhaighal that this creates, sends ripples through the fabric of the elven realms. This effect is very small when a lone, mundane human simply wanders into the forest, but it is dramatically amplified when a person of power enters. Scions and spellcasters, and anyone who tends to mold reality around them (such as a high-level character), create much more dramatic ripples in this fabric, sometimes felt as tremors or &#39;spikes&#39; in the normal flows of the local mebhaighal.

Although the effect may be small when a lone mortal enters the bounds of the elven wood, this effect is dramatically magnified when groups of mortals enter together, or worst of all, when entire armies march into an elven realm. The effects are all too well known in the elven history of Cerilia...few indeed are the surviving elven realms where once they were freely spread throughout the continent.

Finally, there is one other way in which time flows are altered in the Sidhe&#39;s domain. The regent of an elven realm has the power and authority to alter that flow as need dictates, although they tend to do so only when necessary as it disrupts the natural harmony of a Sidhe realm. Skilled regents, especially elven wizards (and most ruling elven regents ARE wizards) who have a familiar comfort with weaving and shaping the flows of mebhaighal, often shape these flows around very limited areas to allow mortals to enter a realm without their presence disruting the general peace. This is the case in places such as Tuarheivel, where the trade road has a continous barrier surrounding it, as does the trading post at the end of that road.

The other instance in which time may be altered is when the domain is threatened. When mortals threaten to invade or damage the realm, it is necessary to react with equal alacrity. Thus, on a domain level of play, an elven regent typically would improve or change the realm very little (if at all), yet can move troops, contest invasive holdings, spend RP to block invasive attempts at creating holdings as necessary, and/or cast realm spells as necessary to protect the realm from mortal incursion. I imagine that an elven regent might take 1 domain action per year (or even less frequently&#33;) if the realm is left undisturbed, but could move at "normal" mortal speed if the need were great (1 action per month + court actions, if any).

-Osprey

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:49 PM





> Age has nothing to do with character levels.

[...]

> If being long lived would equate to having more starting character levels

> then why doesn`t the core rules use this concept, since even there dwarves

> and elves live longer and have a higher starting age than do humans?



When Athos69 suggested "I`d expect the odd ruler to be Epic" what we are

looking at is the levels that come at the end of many years, not at the

beginning (hence its the odd character, not the common character, which

would be the case if it were the result of starting better off). If a

campaign were to last long enough, say 500 years, and PC`s were running

characters, what would they look like? The human character would be the

20th generation decendent of the original character. Where the elf would be

depends on the availability of high CR encounters. But even if CR

encounters mostly top off at 12-15 (aside from the abominations) and the elf

is now gaining a level only once in the life time of his human friends (and

their children) an elf character of 30th level is not beyond what is

possible. For NPC`s we can generally say that adventuruing is a young

person`s activity, and more mature characters will tend to retire to a more

conventional profession, perhaps take a more active roll in their family.

But is it impossible to say that no character has been busy adventuring

throughout 500+ years?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Oct 13 2003, 11:12 AM
:lol: Irdeggman, I was not referring to you. Sorry for that&#33;

Ghosts no longer aging people? Must check that out... And, yes, I know spells no longer age people, but why not curses? ^_^
Pretty much the aging effects have gone away in 3rd ed. This appears to be because they were always vague in effect and didn&#39;t apply the same to races with different life spans (core rules races). Mostly the effects of such things (including bestow curse) are more discrete and universally applicable. That is they cause an ability decrease, an attack penalty, etc. These changes now have the effects apply to all recipients, vice having a greater effect on humans than say elves, which had a much longer life span.

[RaspK_FOG]

Irdeggman, thank you for the insight. What I can see as a possibility is to say that a curse can make you go one step forward in the age scale, which would be equally painful to all people, but have elves remain unphased by such an attack; half-elves would still suffer from it.

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Oct 13 2003, 01:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Oct 13 2003, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Airgedok@Oct 13 2003, 01:02 AM

So i ask again what is this huge advantage that requires the sidhe to be "balanced" via excluding them from divine healing?


I think that you are confusing "balance" with campaign setting definition materials.

Part of the definition of the Birthright setting was that elves don&#39;t worship (or have gods), this for the most part eliminated the divine healing aspect.

If you want to deal with balance for elves and no divine healing then try the fact that elves don&#39;t need to be blooded to cast greater magic. This is a pretty significant benefit. While it wouldn&#39;t really matter to most players since for the most part they would choose to be blooded regardless, it does invike a racial balance issue - elves have far more wizards than do humans due to the fact that they don&#39;t need to be blooded in order to accomplish that, the trade off is that they can&#39;t be clerics (or druids since in BR druids are priests of Erik, again a campaign setting definition). [/b][/quote]
I said in an earlier post that the lack of clerics is in itself a limiting fator for them that a rule that prohibits them from recieving divine healing is yet another added penalty. In the old rules dwarves couldnt be wizards yet could recieve possitive effects of wizardry magic. So why is their no thread that says hey dwarves shouldnt be able to use any archane magic items or gain the possitive effects of arcane magic because they are resistant to arcane magics? the reason there isnt is most people would find the idea obsurd. I in turn find the idea that elves can be healed by divine energies absurd as well yet i dont find the cultural exclusion of sidhe clerics absurd at all. The dont worship human gods (at least a a whole) so they dont become members of the priesthood but their is a huge leap to convey this line of thinking into some exclusion of divine healing. If the sidhe are resistant to divine healing energies why can they recieve the divine energies that make them blooded? Why can their be any blooded sidhe?

All these questions are logical progression on the premis of elves being immune to the healing energies of divine power. I think that the idea of elves cant being healed is a radical inturpitation of the text. Creatures that in the old 2e rules that couldnt be magic users could still gain the positive effects of magic. So I ask why in turn cant elves gain the benifits of magical healing even though they as a whole dont worship or tollerate human religions?

There is not benifit that elves have that they need to be excluded from divine healing. Yes they have more mages but they have to clerics that in itself is a balance. But should human that are able to cast "true magic" be the only ones that can gain the benifits from true magic?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Airgedok@Oct 14 2003, 09:50 PM
I said in an earlier post that the lack of clerics is in itself a limiting fator for them that a rule that prohibits them from recieving divine healing is yet another added penalty. In the old rules dwarves couldnt be wizards yet could recieve possitive effects of wizardry magic. So why is their no thread that says hey dwarves shouldnt be able to use any archane magic items or gain the possitive effects of arcane magic because they are resistant to arcane magics? the reason there isnt is most people would find the idea obsurd. I in turn find the idea that elves can be healed by divine energies absurd as well yet i dont find the cultural exclusion of sidhe clerics absurd at all. The dont worship human gods (at least a a whole) so they dont become members of the priesthood but their is a huge leap to convey this line of thinking into some exclusion of divine healing. If the sidhe are resistant to divine healing energies why can they recieve the divine energies that make them blooded? Why can their be any blooded sidhe?

My bad, I had misinterpreted your statement and thought that you were trying to tie in elves becoming clerics.

I agree with your point in that there is no real reason that anyone can&#39;t benefit (or suffer the adverse effects) from a spell whether divine or arcane or origin, since it is the effect of the spell not the source that matters.

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1956

> Airgedok wrote:

> There is not benifit that elves have that they need to be excluded from divine healing. Yes

they have more mages but they have to clerics that in itself is a

balance. But should human that

are able to cast "true magic" be the only ones that can gain

the benifits from true

magic?



Or asking the other way round: Should blooded wizards casting true magic

fireballs only be able to hurt people capable of learning true magic

(blooded&sidhelien)



If other people are able to be hurt by true magic who are unable to cast

true magic themselves, then sidhelien while having no divine

spellcasters could still be the target for divine spells.

bye

Michael

[destowe]

I could easily see a statement that elves must resist all divine spells cast on them, benifical or not. That will limit healing spells to only half the healing they could get. It could be an automatic save, out of the PC control.

I would also like to see the opposite for dwarves if they have no arcane spell casters. They must attempt to save against all arcane spells, benifical or not. Their inate magic resistance comes into play and sometimes they will not that haste spell they really wanted. This would increase the use of chaplains or other type of militant priests.

[geeman]

At 09:49 PM 10/13/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Age has nothing to do with character levels. This is something that many

>people have tried to correlate over the years for elves specifically. It

>just doesn`t work that way. Most of the long lived races have

>"extended youth periods" and tend to focus on things other than

>class type of activitites during that time. There have been some very good

>articles in Dragon concerning elves and dwarves and how they are raised.



By things other than class type activities you mean things that don`t

traditionally earn someone XP, correct? Crafting items, scaling walls,

lying to girls, etc.? Or is it even less related to class skills than

that? Growing crops, carting them about, etc.?



In general I should note that just about everything can be expressed as a

class type activity in D&D terms since the skill system can be used for

many things. Granted, not all of them might grant XP awards--though the

vagaries of story awards allows for a very broad set of things that might

grant experience.



>If being long lived would equate to having more starting character levels

>then why doesn`t the core rules use this concept, since even there dwarves

>and elves live longer and have a higher starting age than do humans?



There appears to be the assumption in D&D that being 1st level is something

that occurs when a character reaches a point of majority, not the result of

experience per se. That is, that a character doesn`t reach 1st level after

18 (or 25 or 30) years of gaining experience, but rather at a point in

which s/he physical and mental maturation. Of course, there have been some

rules for 0th level characters, but by and large that can be seen as

occurring at a similar period in a character`s aging.



There are other 3e/3.5/D20 reasons for the changes to the way aging works

in D&D. The most obvious one, I think, is that the core rules have made a

concerted effort to stay away from the effects of "unnatural" aging from

magic items, encounters with particular monsters, etc. As part of that

they also did away with things like functional immortality (1,000+ year

life span) for most races. The life spans of elves and other races is much

more like human ages now. Why is that? Well, apparently they`ve decided

to eliminate aging effects in 3e/3.5, so doing away with the long lives of

non-human races is part of that overall theme. The aging effects of

previous editions was a demonstrable advantage for certain races in that

they could burn those years away for positive effects much more easily and

handily.



The solution to these issues in a BR update might be to similarly eliminate

the aspects of aging in BR: No more immortality for elves. That is, in all

honesty, the simplest solution, and one to that has a few good

points. However, I think elven immortality is a strong, purposeful theme

of the setting, however, and not something I would like changed. When it

comes to specific game mechanical representations of being ancient there

are a few games that have suggested a few things. The Highlander D20 game,

for instance, has a few ideas on how to portray immortality, and something

of that order might be appropriate for BR elves and functionally immortal

characters with the Long Life blood ability.



We don`t have any rules for the effects of being aged beyond those of the

effects on ability scores, which are a sort of "purely physical"

thing--even the ones that affect ability scores. Personally, I find them

OK for most campaigns in which there are typical aging effects amongst all

the characters, but in a setting like BR in which we have extremely

long-lived PC races something more would be nice.



I personally don`t agree with the assessment some folks have made that

characters only gain experience by adventuring and that most people who

aren`t engaging in D&D style adventure level play aren`t ever going to gain

XP and, therefore, never level up. It is certainly true that simply aging

isn`t enough to justify getting XP awards, but that assessment seems to

assume that people remain forever in their original, factory packaging--in

a perpetual state of mint condition. In order to adopt the assumption that

non-adventuring characters would never gain XP one has to assume that

people live 20, 30 or 50 years without ever engaging in activities that

would earn them XP. They`ll never get into a fistfight in a local pub,

never have to confront a local bully, never interact with others in a way

that would equate to story awards, never be taught, never mentor someone,

never hunt, steal a loaf of bread, never accomplish a worthy deed,

etc. Any of those things and more are worth experience. The CR system

does not account for them, but that`s not a very good excuse for not

recognizing the effects of such events on a character`s development. They

certainly won`t earn someone XP at the same encounter rate to character

levels presented in the DMG, but the assumption that they are worth nothing

at all is a very different thing. Even over the short period of a typical

mortal life those things could add up to several levels, but aside from

that it`s the long term we`re talking about here (sometimes centuries--even

millennium) and one necessarily has to take the long view in such

things. Under the assumption that no one will gain experience over time a

brand new, fresh out of the box elven child is as experienced as a 2,500

year old elven elder who remembers events a thousand years before Deismaar.



In the long run, though, a few XP granted on a regular basis might be a

more reasonable interpretation of events, particularly since 3e/3.5/D20 is

a fundamentally level based system. A system might be equated to the CR

system, granting a CR award equal to the amount of time passed. CR 1 for 1

year, CR 2 for 2 years, etc. Depending on how one might want to time jump

the system that would not result in the free for all of standard

adventuring CR awards in which characters can zoom from 1st to 20th level

in only a few months of game time. A hard and fast rule like that might

not be the best method of portraying the effects of aging, but it is an

easy way of dealing with the matter.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:

> At 09:49 PM 10/13/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>

>> Age has nothing to do with character levels. This is something that many

>> people have tried to correlate over the years for elves specifically. It

>> just doesn`t work that way. Most of the long lived races have

>> "extended youth periods" and tend to focus on things other than

>> class type of activitites during that time. There have been some very

>> good

>> articles in Dragon concerning elves and dwarves and how they are raised.

>

> By things other than class type activities you mean things that don`t

> traditionally earn someone XP, correct? Crafting items, scaling walls,

> lying to girls, etc.? Or is it even less related to class skills than

> that? Growing crops, carting them about, etc.?

>

> In general I should note that just about everything can be expressed as a

> class type activity in D&D terms since the skill system can be used for

> many things. Granted, not all of them might grant XP awards--though the

> vagaries of story awards allows for a very broad set of things that might

> grant experience.

>> If being long lived would equate to having more starting character levels

>> then why doesn`t the core rules use this concept, since even there

>> dwarves

>> and elves live longer and have a higher starting age than do humans?

> There appears to be the assumption in D&D that being 1st level is something

> that occurs when a character reaches a point of majority, not the result of

> experience per se. That is, that a character doesn`t reach 1st level after

> 18 (or 25 or 30) years of gaining experience, but rather at a point in

> which s/he physical and mental maturation. Of course, there have been some

> rules for 0th level characters, but by and large that can be seen as

> occurring at a similar period in a character`s aging.



> There are other 3e/3.5/D20 reasons for the changes to the way aging works

> in D&D. The most obvious one, I think, is that the core rules have made a

> concerted effort to stay away from the effects of "unnatural" aging from

> magic items, encounters with particular monsters, etc. As part of that

> they also did away with things like functional immortality (1,000+ year

> life span) for most races. The life spans of elves and other races is much

> more like human ages now. Why is that? Well, apparently they`ve decided

> to eliminate aging effects in 3e/3.5, so doing away with the long lives of

> non-human races is part of that overall theme. The aging effects of

> previous editions was a demonstrable advantage for certain races in that

> they could burn those years away for positive effects much more easily and

> handily.

>

> The solution to these issues in a BR update might be to similarly eliminate

> the aspects of aging in BR: No more immortality for elves. That is, in all

> honesty, the simplest solution, and one to that has a few good

> points. However, I think elven immortality is a strong, purposeful theme

> of the setting, however, and not something I would like changed. When it

> comes to specific game mechanical representations of being ancient there

> are a few games that have suggested a few things. The Highlander D20 game,

> for instance, has a few ideas on how to portray immortality, and something

> of that order might be appropriate for BR elves and functionally immortal

> characters with the Long Life blood ability.

>

> We don`t have any rules for the effects of being aged beyond those of the

> effects on ability scores, which are a sort of "purely physical"

> thing--even the ones that affect ability scores. Personally, I find them

> OK for most campaigns in which there are typical aging effects amongst all

> the characters, but in a setting like BR in which we have extremely

> long-lived PC races something more would be nice.

>

> I personally don`t agree with the assessment some folks have made that

> characters only gain experience by adventuring and that most people who

> aren`t engaging in D&D style adventure level play aren`t ever going to gain

> XP and, therefore, never level up. It is certainly true that simply aging

> isn`t enough to justify getting XP awards, but that assessment seems to

> assume that people remain forever in their original, factory packaging--in

> a perpetual state of mint condition. In order to adopt the assumption that

> non-adventuring characters would never gain XP one has to assume that

> people live 20, 30 or 50 years without ever engaging in activities that

> would earn them XP. They`ll never get into a fistfight in a local pub,

> never have to confront a local bully, never interact with others in a way

> that would equate to story awards, never be taught, never mentor someone,

> never hunt, steal a loaf of bread, never accomplish a worthy deed,

> etc. Any of those things and more are worth experience. The CR system

> does not account for them, but that`s not a very good excuse for not

> recognizing the effects of such events on a character`s development. They

> certainly won`t earn someone XP at the same encounter rate to character

> levels presented in the DMG, but the assumption that they are worth nothing

> at all is a very different thing. Even over the short period of a typical

> mortal life those things could add up to several levels, but aside from

> that it`s the long term we`re talking about here (sometimes centuries--even

> millennium) and one necessarily has to take the long view in such

> things. Under the assumption that no one will gain experience over time a

> brand new, fresh out of the box elven child is as experienced as a 2,500

> year old elven elder who remembers events a thousand years before Deismaar.

>

> In the long run, though, a few XP granted on a regular basis might be a

> more reasonable interpretation of events, particularly since 3e/3.5/D20 is

> a fundamentally level based system. A system might be equated to the CR

> system, granting a CR award equal to the amount of time passed. CR 1 for 1

> year, CR 2 for 2 years, etc. Depending on how one might want to time jump

> the system that would not result in the free for all of standard

> adventuring CR awards in which characters can zoom from 1st to 20th level

> in only a few months of game time. A hard and fast rule like that might

> not be the best method of portraying the effects of aging, but it is an

> easy way of dealing with the matter.

>

> Gary



You intend to give out XP for "free", just for aging and taking part in

minor activities?



Then certainly you intend also to double or quadruple the number of XPs

needed to level up as this table would lead to a faster rate of

levelling up and 3E already levels faster than 2E.

bye

Michael

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 9:18 AM



> You intend to give out XP for "free", just for aging and taking part in

> minor activities?



The game does give ability score bonuses to aging characters. It is also

resonable to imagine that skills would be the primary beneficiary of aging.

This is one of the problems of the class based system, in that attempting to

account for the mental benefits of aging tends to either require altering

mechanics (skills = class + int mod + decades of age -2) or inflates all

other class abilities by lathering on additional xp. Aging should produce a

linear increase in mental abilities and a geometric decline of physical

abilities. I don`t think this is contraversial. The problem is how to

impliment it. Since D&D is designed as a combat game first, and all other

things second, things like a preponderance of characters who are not in

their early 20`s or otherwise magically defying age. Adventurers who become

frail retire. Kings often just delegate the physical stuff while continuing

to do the mental stuff.



> needed to level up as this table would lead to a faster rate of

> levelling up and 3E already levels faster than 2E.



Doesn`t this obviously depend on how many addition xp one could get for

aging? Would`t the numbers have to be double or triple those earned from

combat to make this reform sensible? If some DM gave character`s 100xp a

year for presumed additional experience, doubling or tripling experience

would harldly be appropriate. Such an additional source of xp would be

inflationary, but not neccesarily to the point of doubling or tripling xp.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 04:18 PM 10/19/2003 +0200, Michael wrote:



>You intend to give out XP for "free", just for aging and taking part in

>minor activities?



Pretty much, yeah. If by "just for aging" you mean years of indirectly

addressed time....



There`s an old martial arts anecdote. A kung fu student is travelling

through the country and comes across another neophyte. They agree to test

their skills against one another and the traveller is roundly trounced. He

returns to his master and tells him the story. Together they train

mercilessly for a year. They greatly improve his skills, and his

confidence grows with this talent. The student returns to the site of his

defeat and again confronts the martial artist that beat him. Again, he is

handily defeated.



"But I spent the last year in continual training and study..." the student

said.



"...and so have I," responded his opponent.



My point here is that the assumption that characters enter a state of

hibernation when not actively role-played isn`t very close to reality (or,

at least, that "reality" that RPGs endorse) and that a system of

recognizing that people actually do "get better" with time is something

that is a logical and helpful thing, especially in a level based system

that really only recognizes such things by attributing XP to them.



>Then certainly you intend also to double or quadruple the number of XPs

>needed to level up as this table would lead to a faster rate of

>levelling up and 3E already levels faster than 2E.



I only grant 1/4 to 1/3 the awards for regular adventuring as presented in

the 3e/3.5 DMG. It works much better IMO, especially in a "low level"

setting like BR. That aside, however, if one grants XP in the manner I

described (1 year = a CR 1 award) I think you`ll find the rate of levelling

up is very slow, so there`s no need to change the XP required to level up.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck schrieb:

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 9:18 AM



>>You intend to give out XP for "free", just for aging and taking part in

>>minor activities?

>

> The game does give ability score bonuses to aging characters. It is also

> resonable to imagine that skills would be the primary beneficiary of aging.

> This is one of the problems of the class based system, in that attempting to

> account for the mental benefits of aging tends to either require altering

> mechanics (skills = class + int mod + decades of age -2) or inflates all

> other class abilities by lathering on additional xp. Aging should produce a

> linear increase in mental abilities and a geometric decline of physical

> abilities. I don`t think this is contraversial. The problem is how to

> impliment it. Since D&D is designed as a combat game first, and all other

> things second, things like a preponderance of characters who are not in

> their early 20`s or otherwise magically defying age. Adventurers who become

> frail retire. Kings often just delegate the physical stuff while continuing

> to do the mental stuff.

>

>

>>needed to level up as this table would lead to a faster rate of

>>levelling up and 3E already levels faster than 2E.

>

>

> Doesn`t this obviously depend on how many addition xp one could get for

> aging? Would`t the numbers have to be double or triple those earned from

> combat to make this reform sensible? If some DM gave character`s 100xp a

> year for presumed additional experience, doubling or tripling experience

> would harldly be appropriate. Such an additional source of xp would be

> inflationary, but not neccesarily to the point of doubling or tripling xp.

> Kenneth Gauck

> kgauck@mchsi.com



Not necessarily. I considered always the optional DMG rule to give XP

for non-combat actions a must for a BR game. Adding yet another source

of XP income would IMO require to raise the XP needed to level. The

exact number of XP needed would depend on the XP awards and would depend

from DM to DM - in a game where only non-regents play and the DM only

gives out XP for fighting the table certainly can stay as it is. If XP

are awarded for fighting, non-combat-achievements and gaining experience

by living/aging then either the XP needed to advance ought to be raised

or the XP awarded lowered.

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:

> At 04:18 PM 10/19/2003 +0200, Michael wrote:

>

>> You intend to give out XP for "free", just for aging and taking part in

>> minor activities?



> Pretty much, yeah. If by "just for aging" you mean years of indirectly

> addressed time....

>

> There`s an old martial arts anecdote. A kung fu student is travelling

> through the country and comes across another neophyte. They agree to test

> their skills against one another and the traveller is roundly trounced. He

> returns to his master and tells him the story. Together they train

> mercilessly for a year. They greatly improve his skills, and his

> confidence grows with this talent. The student returns to the site of his

> defeat and again confronts the martial artist that beat him. Again, he is

> handily defeated.

>

> "But I spent the last year in continual training and study..." the student

> said.

>

> "...and so have I," responded his opponent.

>

> My point here is that the assumption that characters enter a state of

> hibernation when not actively role-played isn`t very close to reality (or,

> at least, that "reality" that RPGs endorse) and that a system of

> recognizing that people actually do "get better" with time is something

> that is a logical and helpful thing, especially in a level based system

> that really only recognizes such things by attributing XP to them.



But the point of your example is flawed, as the student does not get

better by the passage of time only or actions that are not represented

by the rules. He could be seen as using the "Training" action each month

for a year and thereby gaining XP to get better.



bye

Michael

[kari]

Here is my system, to allow people to show more skills then there actual ranks. or Xp would sugjest.

you spend your time training for each skill point, in advance.

then you can acsuly use thet skillpoint as if you had it.

then when you spend ranks you finaly buy the skillpoint you traind.
&#39;or pay for them&#39;


Training acording to this formula:

to gain one training point:
timeof training: DM&#39;s rule

examples
Training time with a master: one week of exstensive training
Training time with no master but with instructions: one month of exstensive training
Training time, training alone /trial error: one year of moderaided training.



DC is Wisdome based.
DC 15+ your current training value

you roll a d20 then add your wis mod and any ranks you have in the skill.
learning is based on paying atention, spoting the rigth information,

to benifit from a master, the master must have his skill one point higer then your training value, will all his mods :)

so if 2 characrets with a wery hig base mod in a skill can acsuly learn from each other. and whit the sinirgy bonuses kikking in, your

rolling away in traind skillpoints.

The teacher can aid his student with a +2 bonus to his roll
for a number of students equal to his cha mod.

this system limits training points to 5+wis+ranks(+2 for the teachers aiding)

[geeman]

Michael Romes writes:



> But the point of your example is flawed, as the student does not get

> better by the passage of time only or actions that are not represented

> by the rules. He could be seen as using the "Training" action each month

> for a year and thereby gaining XP to get better.



Well, what I`m getting at isn`t the function of training, but that the

assumption that characters who do not "adventure" in the traditional hack `n

slash/steal the treasure kind of way are never going to gain XP. A more

reasonable presentation of this kind of thing is that many things earn

someone XP. They may not earn XP for a character at the same rate that

killing/stealing might, but they are valuable "learning" experiences--which

is really only portrayed in 3e/3.5/D20 by XP awards.



The counter argument is usually some variation on the theme that one does

not gain XP for simply aging. While that`s true it ignores that nobody ever

"simply ages" outside of a few coma wards and, perhaps, public high schools.

We all go through a continuous series of events and experiences, not all of

which might grant us XP on a large scale, but in a way that shouldn`t be

ignored. Portraying the passage of time (centuries in the case of Cerilian

elves) as being something that has no effect on a character isn`t very

realistic or very apt to the setting.



Gary

[The Jew]

I think this conversation is sort of a mute point. For adventures or rulers, what PC&#39;s are, they should only earn experience through ruling or adventuring. That is what makes the game fun. For NPC&#39;s, its perfectly within the DM&#39;s jurisdiction to give them levels based on non-adventuring circumstances. The master chef should have spent all their lives training to cook, not adventuring. He should be a high level expert. The DM should just decide and not worry about creating a system.

[teloft]

Im thinking awerage kwnolege of his profesion as a cook

a cook coming from the higlands of the Rjurik wound have much skill in plain cooking, thow he would have a good survival skill.

I need to note thet to use my variand:
All skills must be traind in advance before ranks kan be bugth.
then a character will nor recive as many skill points.
Do not multiply by 4 at fyrst level. rather let the history of the
Pc and the roleplay lead to what skills the Pc has traind in the past.

Now if you have a character from one backround or a nother, there can be some guildlines on what to exspect from a character from there.

this realy dosent interfear with the game much, but it gives the Dm more fredome from the skillpoint rank system.

[teloft]

the elf regeneration.

I would rule you multiply the 1d4 by the character level of the elf.
so it would not penalice higer level elfs for having more Hp.

Multiply the Hp regeneraited by the level or HD :) it would make me feel much better.

Hp are not wounds. The usual hous-rule at my hous is thet the Hp is simply how good you are taking damage without realy geting hurt.

but if there is a critical hit, it can realy wound you. Yes, we have the extensive crittical tables from 2nd ed.

[Green Knight]

IMC I give out XP awards for some character actions - Training and ply trade comes to mind.



The amount varies somewhat, but is essentially quite low (a commoner working the fields might get a little less than the master weaponsmith for example). Ply trade generates the least XP of all.



>From my perspective the vast majority of NPCs in Cerilia take 3 ply trade actions each turn. This generates income and provides some XP. It might take a few years, but ventually anyone old enough will advance in level.



Cheers

Bjørn

>

> Fra: Gary Foss <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

> Dato: 2003/10/20 Mon PM 06:30:07 CEST

> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

> Emne: Re: A Variant For The Sidhe [36#1956]

>

> Michael Romes writes:

>

> > But the point of your example is flawed, as the student does not get

> > better by the passage of time only or actions that are not represented

> > by the rules. He could be seen as using the "Training" action each month

> > for a year and thereby gaining XP to get better.

>

> Well, what I`m getting at isn`t the function of training, but that the

> assumption that characters who do not "adventure" in the traditional hack `n

> slash/steal the treasure kind of way are never going to gain XP. A more

> reasonable presentation of this kind of thing is that many things earn

> someone XP. They may not earn XP for a character at the same rate that

> killing/stealing might, but they are valuable "learning" experiences--which

> is really only portrayed in 3e/3.5/D20 by XP awards.

>

> The counter argument is usually some variation on the theme that one does

> not gain XP for simply aging. While that`s true it ignores that nobody ever

> "simply ages" outside of a few coma wards and, perhaps, public high schools.

> We all go through a continuous series of events and experiences, not all of

> which might grant us XP on a large scale, but in a way that shouldn`t be

> ignored. Portraying the passage of time (centuries in the case of Cerilian

> elves) as being something that has no effect on a character isn`t very

> realistic or very apt to the setting.

>

> Gary

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

[Airgedok]

I&#39;m not for giving xp for time progression. I&#39;d rather see the elimination of the level limit for skill ranks and place a purchace limit of 2 per level class and 1 for cross level and then give bonus skill level for time progression to show the study of knowledge as apose to combat skills which is what 90% of level bonuses deal with.

This would make the Sidhe great reseviours of knowledge and skill but not any better in "the field".

HOWEVER this solution is fine for adventure level games in BR it is almost assureadly unbalanced for regent level games, where skills are king over combat prowess.

Immortality is very poorly handled in games because its not really something that can be balanced.

[kari]

what aboud shaddo ranks. thet are not level dependet, with one can earn trow practise, time, and traiing. Ruling

Shado ranks do not stakk with regular ranks.

In order to take a shado rank she must be exposed to somone who has this hig rank or shado rank (level of new shado ranks cant exside the common for the region/ sosial group)

[Osprey]

I think messing with the level limits for skills is playing with fire. However, I have no problem with allowing characters to train other skills beyond the normal class-based allocations of skill points. This is a good way to represent background skills, professional development, and simply training in non-adventuring areas without significant increases in combat skills. It does beg the question of high degrees of specialization, but hey: that&#39;s what classes like the Expert are for, right?

Traveller T20 has a special class-based feat for the Academic class called Academic Specialty (I think that&#39;s the name). The feat grants +3 to the maximum ranks in one class skill of the player&#39;s choice. Another one is Professional Specialty for the Professional class, which allows the character to always take 10 under any circumstances when using their specialty skill. Both of these are, IMO, excellent depictions of what a specialized professional might be capable of, and they don&#39;t require high level characters to be extremely competent in their area of expertise.

[teloft]

I see shaddo rank

limided by amout of time spent training each year.

but never higer then the total skill mod of a master

I say there sould be a DC to get a shaddo rank

Wisdome check with the
DC = total shado ranks (of all skills) - Ranks in the skill begin Traind in.

people can be wery intelegent without realy gaining anithing from formal training, thets way I have based the DC on Wis. but thay can still earn skills by gaining levels as the expert or what ever.

this will also limit shaddo rank points to be somewere around (20+wis mod)


This can alow expert craftman / skilled diplomat and so on to be passed down to new generations, withoud having a skilled higlevel character.

:ph34r:

[RaspK_FOG]

I&#39;ve written my idea for skill training in the "BRCS Feats and Skills" thread. ;)

[OsricIlien]

There were some posts eariler about gaining xp when not adventuring during down time. Adding a little bit of realism to your roleplaying game is not a bad thing. People learn things even when they are not off killing Orcs and goblins. I have always used the variant of giving xp for other non killing encounters. Life is a learning experiance and in game terms you should gain xp when ever you deal with something new or deal with something in a different way. My GM for Birthright grants us a little xp when ever we raise a holding level. Why? Because you begin to get better and more experienced at what ever you are doing when you practice. Also granting xp for suffering a terrible loss or losing a fight is a great idea because you still learn something form lossing. In the end what I am getting at is that xp should not simply be rewarded for killing the monster but also for managing an entire kingdoms resources Imagine how much work it must take to be the president,(not including Dubya.) that deserves a lot of xp.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by OsricIlien@Nov 4 2003, 07:08 PM
There were some posts eariler about gaining xp when not adventuring during down time. Adding a little bit of realism to your roleplaying game is not a bad thing. People learn things even when they are not off killing Orcs and goblins. I have always used the variant of giving xp for other non killing encounters. Life is a learning experiance and in game terms you should gain xp when ever you deal with something new or deal with something in a different way. My GM for Birthright grants us a little xp when ever we raise a holding level. Why? Because you begin to get better and more experienced at what ever you are doing when you practice. Also granting xp for suffering a terrible loss or losing a fight is a great idea because you still learn something form lossing. In the end what I am getting at is that xp should not simply be rewarded for killing the monster but also for managing an entire kingdoms resources Imagine how much work it must take to be the president,(not including Dubya.) that deserves a lot of xp.
Chap 8 of the BRCS-playtest has a variant for exp awards for domain actions.

The core of 3.5 exp is in overcoming an obstacle. This can be defeating a monster or just in finding a way to successfully work around the situation - heck negotiation is easily a better way to overcome many creatures/situations. Losing is not overcoming, although a DM could interpret it as surviving an encounter/situation as a means of overcoming it. But generally, IMO, it is not a good idea to award failures. If so then what is the incentive to find another way to overcome the situation that was failed before? The basic premise is to play heroic characters and heroic characters don&#39;t quit, nor do they accept failure as an absolute.

The award comes from the eventual overcoming of the obstacle. How many players haven&#39;t found greater satisfaction in overcoming a creature that had severely given their character a whupping previously? That is what it is all about - tension and joy in the eventual overcoming of the set backs along the way. The awards are a reflection of this and should be representative of the conflict and triumph.

[OsricIlien]

Thank you,
I actually completely agree with you. My real problem was with not awarding xp for doing things like ruling holdings or non adventuring interactions. Overcoming the obstacle is what you should award xp for. However it seems that the classic D&D ethic is that you only learn something when you kill a monster. I would like to see more people except the idea of non-standard xp rewards. I apoligize however for ranting about something that is not on topic for this discussion perhaps I will start a different strand.
:)

[enanidah]

The implication from the Cleric magic being incompatible with the Mebhaigal-rich elven bodies is that cleric magic is not really tied in with mebhaigal. That wasn&#39;t the way I&#39;d read it at all. The impression that I&#39;d got was the Arcane and Divine Magic were less artificially separated than in other D&D settings. I thought it was still the same kind of energy just coming from a different source (in the normal not setting definition of the term).

While the Deities are (thankfully) less interventionist in Cerilia than in Other D&D setting of you choice <tm>, they are roughly on the same power scale. I think Cleric magic should be capable of healing elves - but it generally isn&#39;t too relevant because elves don&#39;t often meet Clerics.

The fact that elves just don&#39;t do religion - with very rare exceptions - is already pretty much set out - but if elves are magically excluded from divine healing what about the effects of other divine spells? Making them immune to all Divine Magic is definitely something I&#39;d want to avoid - but if they&#39;re bodies reject that sort of energy - shouldn&#39;t their mind&#39;s reject say the mentally controlling spells?

And then there&#39;s the social implications. I think that if it was known that elves could not be healed they might be seen as outcast - beyond divine grace - human societies have historically tended to demonize that kind of (perceived) group. That has interesting implications for elven/human relations that I&#39;m not sure are intended.

[enanidah]

Whoops - didn&#39;t realize there was a few more pages to the board which already covered all that - sorry *blush*

[Ming I]

Since this thread is supposed to be a variant for the Sidhe, why not make them true Fey?

Like the dryad they would have a dependency to the land (Cerilia dependent). If they leave Cerilia, to enter the Shadow World, for instance, they would begin to die. I am not sure what would be a reasonable time frame but maybe 1d6 hours for each 100 years they have been on Cerilia?

Their ties to the land would give them the following abilities:

Fast Healing equal to (the Potential of the Province they are in - 4)
If the value is negative, then the ability simply does not function. This would allow Elves
to heal almost instantaneously from most wounds and negate the need for most clerical healing.
The ability to cast druid spells as a caster equal to their character level
They could only cast spells up to a level equal to the potential of the province/2.
For example an 8th level Elven character in the typical Elven Forest could cast up to 3rd level
Druid spells as though he was an 8th level caster (6/4/3/3) . The character would need to have
the proper Wisdom scores to cast and would also need to prepare spells as a druid does. No
bonus spells would be given for high Wisdom scores.
A circumstance bonus to Charisma equal to the potential of the province that they are in/2
An elf in the same Elven Forest for example, would enjoy a charisma bonus of +3 while in
its confines.

In addition to their land abilities they would get:

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
+2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot Checks
Timeless Body (while in Cerilia)
Purity of Body (while in Cerilia)
Immunity to magic sleep spells, and sleep effects
+2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects
Low-light Vision (60ft)
Nature&#39;s Stride
Proficiency with longsword, shortbow, longbow, composite longbow, and composite shortbow

These are just some thoughts (and maybe they are bad ones), but I would welcome knowing what people thought of them, and how they would change them.

[RaspK_FOG]

For those of you who have not noticed it, another suggestion has been made in the "Demihuman" related thread about elves.

I also made a comment about dwarven damage reduction, but it seems none has noticed so far; that&#39;s why I mention here... Excuse my being bold.

[geeman]

At 11:09 PM 1/27/2004 +0100, Ming I wrote:



>Like the dryad they would have a dependency to the land (Cerilia

>dependent). If they leave Cerilia, to enter the Shadow World, for

>instance, they would begin to die. I am not sure what would be a

>reasonable time frame but maybe 1d6 hours for each 100 years they have

>been on Cerilia?



I don`t think I`d kill them off if they left Cerilia. There are, after

all, Sie populations in the SW, even if they are "a different race" as it

were. We don`t really know the cosmology of BR for sure. It could be that

there are a Planescape-like set of dimensions and all that. Certainly when

the setting was published the D&D cosmology was the assumption for most if

not all TSR campaign worlds. I don`t think Aebrynis should exist in quite

that cosmology, but regardless of whether it does or not I don`t think I`d

go so far as to have Cerilian elves wither within a few hours/days of

leaving the plane.



> Their ties to the land would give them the following abilities:

>

> Fast Healing equal to (the Potential of the Province they are in - 4)

> If the value is negative, then the ability simply does not

> function. This would allow Elves

> to heal almost instantaneously from most wounds and negate the need

> for most clerical healing.



I like this one.



> The ability to cast druid spells as a caster equal to their character level

> They could only cast spells up to a level equal to the potential of

> the province/2.

> For example an 8th level Elven character in the typical Elven Forest

> could cast up to 3rd level

> Druid spells as though he was an 8th level caster (6/4/3/3) . The

> character would need to have

> the proper Wisdom scores to cast and would also need to prepare

> spells as a druid does. No

> bonus spells would be given for high Wisdom scores.



Aside from any thematic issues, that`s awful powerful.... Spellcasting is

the meaty bit of most of the spellcasting classes, so giving the ability to

cast spells just like a druid is a very beefy ability. When it comes to

their actual nature abilities, lots of the druidic spells don`t IMO

particularly lend themselves to the Cerilian elven take on magic, which is

one of my arguments against allowing them access to the druid character

class. I like giving them their own set of nature based spells that are

mostly borrowed from the druid spell list, but they are cherry picked

rather than simply made a permanent racial ability.



> A circumstance bonus to Charisma equal to the potential of the province

> that they are in/2

> An elf in the same Elven Forest for example, would enjoy a charisma

> bonus of +3 while in

> its confines.



This one seems like it might be a bit difficult to adjudicate since

charisma affects several different things. A changing ability score is a

bit more complex than simply figuring out the healing rate alone. Skills,

spellcasting, some special abilities, etc. can all be influenced. Aside

from that, it strikes me as also being too beefy a special ability--equal

to a pretty decent spell with an endless duration, and that`s pretty strong.



> In addition to their land abilities they would get:

>

> +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence

> +2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot Checks

> Timeless Body (while in Cerilia)

> Purity of Body (while in Cerilia)

> Immunity to magic sleep spells, and sleep effects

> +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects

> Low-light Vision (60ft)

> Nature`s Stride

> Proficiency with longsword, shortbow, longbow, composite longbow, and

> composite shortbow



Personally, I think the BRCS`s charisma modifier to Cerilian elves is a

nice elegant solution to their use of magic and the racial theme, so I`d

stick with that. Generally races have some sort of ability score penalty

to compensate for their bonuses--usually con for elves--so you should

probably consider keeping that.



Gary

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/27/04 5:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



<< Ming I wrote:

Since this thread is supposed to be a variant for the Sidhe, why not make

them true Fey? >>



I do that IMC. Doesn`t mean much.



<< Like the dryad they would have a dependency to the land (Cerilia

dependent). If they leave Cerilia, to enter the Shadow World, for instance, they

would begin to die. I am not sure what would be a reasonable time frame but maybe

1d6 hours for each 100 years they have been on Cerilia? >>



Sounds too fatal to me.



<< Their ties to the land would give them the following abilities:



Fast Healing equal to (the Potential of the Province they are in - 4)

If the value is negative, then the ability simply does not function.

This would allow Elves

to heal almost instantaneously from most wounds and negate the need for

most clerical healing. >>



OK, this is neat. Along those lines of tying vitality to Source

Potential, I made up some background once, that sidhe could best reproduce in

`undisturbed` provinces, or with humans; otherwise their fertility went down. No one

really noticed or understood why anymore.



<< The ability to cast druid spells as a caster equal to their character

level

They could only cast spells up to a level equal to the potential of the

province/2. >>



That sounds like too much to me.



<< A circumstance bonus to Charisma equal to the potential of the province

that they are in/2 An elf in the same Elven Forest for example, would enjoy a

charisma bonus of +3 while in its confines.>>



Again, seems too much. I prefer the 4 stats changed in the BRCS. IT

seems more consistent, especially as I have no indication that sidhe lose their

attractiveness should they leave their own lands.



<< These are just some thoughts (and maybe they are bad ones), but I would

welcome knowing what people thought of them, and how they would change them.

>>

[kgauck]

I don`t make the sidhe fey because it seems the seelie *are* fey, and the

division of the elves into sidhe and seelie strikes me that they aren`t both

fey.



Further, I regard the shadow world as the home of the fey enviroment (in

part because of the seelie, in part because of legends surround fey as being

from the faerie realm (Annwvyn, Tir Nan Og). So fey beings are beings

naturally from the shadow world who have crossed over into this world. What

is behind dryad symbiosis (the 300 yard limit beyond which they have 4d6

hours)? The oak tree is a gate to the SW navigated by the dryad into this

world. So I see part of the fundamental dilema of the sidhe being seperated

from their fey nature.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Jan 28 2004, 01:23 PM
At 11:09 PM 1/27/2004 +0100, Ming I wrote:



>Like the dryad they would have a dependency to the land (Cerilia

>dependent). If they leave Cerilia, to enter the Shadow World, for

>instance, they would begin to die. I am not sure what would be a

>reasonable time frame but maybe 1d6 hours for each 100 years they have

>been on Cerilia?



I don`t think I`d kill them off if they left Cerilia. There are, after

all, Sie populations in the SW, even if they are "a different race" as it

were. We don`t really know the cosmology of BR for sure. It could be that

there are a Planescape-like set of dimensions and all that. Certainly when

the setting was published the D&D cosmology was the assumption for most if

not all TSR campaign worlds. I don`t think Aebrynis should exist in quite

that cosmology, but regardless of whether it does or not I don`t think I`d

go so far as to have Cerilian elves wither within a few hours/days of

leaving the plane.



Gary


I don&#39;t think they should &#39;die&#39; if entering the Shadow World either, but I think the point being made was more along the lines of Blood Spawn in that they start to age normally if they go to the Shadow World, hence in their (elven) perspective they do start to die.

[irdeggman]

Like the dryad they would have a dependency to the land (Cerilia dependent). If they leave Cerilia, to enter the Shadow World, for instance, they would begin to die. I am not sure what would be a reasonable time frame but maybe 1d6 hours for each 100 years they have been on Cerilia?

Check Blood Spawn (a free download from WotC which specifies that Cerilian elves age normally when they go to the Shadow World. IMO this is pretty specific, not in contrast to any 3/3.5 mechanics and is relatively easy to handle without being too rules-specific.



Fast Healing equal to (the Potential of the Province they are in - 4)
If the value is negative, then the ability simply does not function. This would allow Elves
to heal almost instantaneously from most wounds and negate the need for most clerical healing.



Have I said lately how much I absolutely hate this idea?

If this is the case then the elves would never have lost any ground to the humans. Cerilia was mostly forest (at least the Southern Coast area) prior to the human incursion. If elves healed almost instantaneously they would never have lost a war to the humans. The Rjurik lands are still mostly forest and the elves have been forced to recede deeper into the forest. This concept fails the logic check using the history of Cerilia that we have from 2nd ed.



The ability to cast druid spells as a caster equal to their character level
They could only cast spells up to a level equal to the potential of the province/2.
For example an 8th level Elven character in the typical Elven Forest could cast up to 3rd level
Druid spells as though he was an 8th level caster (6/4/3/3) . The character would need to have
the proper Wisdom scores to cast and would also need to prepare spells as a druid does. No
bonus spells would be given for high Wisdom scores.
A circumstance bonus to Charisma equal to the potential of the province that they are in/2
An elf in the same Elven Forest for example, would enjoy a charisma bonus of +3 while in
its confines.


Adding &#39;free&#39; spellcasting is very definitely overpowering, off the cuff this looks like it would result in somewhere around a +4 or 5 level adjustment. This would also grant all elves the healing divine spells, since druids have them on their spell list.

I think the Nature Magic Affinity that I put together earlier (based on Gary&#39;s initial concept) - which adds nature-specific druid spells to any arcane spell list the elf may have is a much better concept. It doesn&#39;t grant any &#39;free&#39; spells, since the elf doesn&#39;t automatically now any of these spells (he must make the appropriate choices) this has a built in check and balance system. It also limits their access to healing magic (something from the core rules that was campaign specific).



Most of these proposals seem to be based on concepts that elves are the &#39;most superior&#39; race and hence should be dominating every aspect of the game. This is in very much contrast to core D&D concepts that all races should be more or less balanced with each other.

In Cerilia humans are the dominant race, they have spread out and conquered most of the available land and &#39;forced&#39; the native races in small areas. The only way this is possible is if humans had some sort of an edge over the other races. Dwarves are basically subteranean and have no apparent conflict with humans, elves are in direct contrast to humans and have inherent acess to greater arcane magic - the only balance here is the access to divine magic (which again was a core campaign concept), goblins are in constant conflict with just about all other races - so their number ahve been dwindled due to wars with everybody else, halflings are not native to Cerilia so they are not numerous enough to have a conflict with any race in particular. Just my 2 cp worth.

[Osprey]

Most of these proposals seem to be based on concepts that elves are the &#39;most superior&#39; race and hence should be dominating every aspect of the game. This is in very much contrast to core D&D concepts that all races should be more or less balanced with each other.

D&D&#39;s concept of racial balance is on an individual level, and is based on a game concept (i.e., "games are fun only if they seem fair to the players") rather than any kind of realism (i.e., "all living species are born inherently unequal; they have their various advantages and adaptations, but in the real world power goes to those who are best equipped and able to take it.")

The individual balance is achieved through level adjustments. But why should it be assumed that Cerilian elves should never have a level adjustment? Why, in fact, should they be part of the standard roster of PC races in Birthright? In my own game, I do not allow pure elven PC&#39;s (unless I were to have a group of players who all wanted to play elves) without some serious discussion of the hows and whys.

Individually, I don&#39;t see any problem with elves being individually superior to humans.

But when you start talking about why humans are dominant as a race, we&#39;re freer to look at things like population, technology, and other large-scale factors that have little bearing on individual racial stats.

For humans, I think they beat back the elves because of superior numbers and (especially) reproductive rates, allowing them to replace losses more rapidly over the course of centuries. Throw in clerical healing magics (not just Cure Wounds, but Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease/Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, etc.) and we have this advantage dramatically enhanced as survivability increases in addition to more births per year and a faster rate of physical maturation.

In other words, those advantages, while small on the personal level, are of immense significance on the strategic scale over the long term. And hence elves have been pushed back for thousands of years as the expansionistic drives of the humans seem to be without reason or pause unless forced to (heh, a good argument for militant elves&#33;).

So there&#39;s no reason why elves can&#39;t be a +1 or +2 ECL race, with superior ability scores (total of +4/+6 on average), conditional regeneration (I still prefer my original proposal of slow regeneration in high-source areas - measured in HP per hour rather than per round), and some neat racial abilities (pass without trace, lowlight vision, etc.). There&#39;s no reason elves can&#39;t be superior individuals as a race - they just need an ECL adjustment to measure it. Because any one elf could be better than any one human, but with only slightly better ability scores we&#39;re talking a "slight edge" one on one, and 10 humans vs. one elf will probably have an inevitable result...

-Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

:D I have said it earlier, that I like elves this or that way... All in all, Osprey&#39;s right about what he says, and there&#39;s another thing too: well, how many mixed elven/humane/dwarven/halfling parties can you think of?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 2 2004, 07:22 PM
:D I have said it earlier, that I like elves this or that way... All in all, Osprey&#39;s right about what he says, and there&#39;s another thing too: well, how many mixed elven/humane/dwarven/halfling parties can you think of?
We frequently had mixed parites (humans - multi-cultural, dwarves and halflings.) Occasionally we had a half-elf and in one party we even had an elf. IMC I didn&#39;t allow elves or half-elves to be with the humans unless the player could give me a very, very good reason as to why his proposed character could be there without having to fight to stay alive.

There are far too many predominantly human domains with half-elven regents (other than non-landed wizards) in the 2nd ed material for my tastes, but that is just me I guess.

[Lee]

In a message dated 2/3/04 6:19:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



<< irdeggman wrote:

:D I have said it earlier, that I like elves this or that way... All in all,

Osprey`s right about what he says, and there`s another thing too: well, how

many mixed elven/humane/dwarven/halfling parties can you think of? [/QUOTE]



We frequently had mixed parites (humans - multi-cultural, dwarves and

halflings.) Occasionally we had a half-elf and in one party we even had an elf.

IMC I didn`t allow elves or half-elves to be with the humans unless the player

could give me a very, very good reason as to why his proposed character could

be there without having to fight to stay alive. >>



Ditto, I let in one 1/2elf PC, and refused any others IMC. I thought

Rjurik would be too insular to allow many non-humans to hang about with them. As

it was, that PC grew out his hair and beard to cover his sidhe-like features.



<< There are far too many predominantly human domains with half-elven

regents (other than non-landed wizards) in the 2nd ed material for my tastes, but

that is just me I guess. >>



Ah, but that`s the secret plan of the late Queen of Tuarhievel-- to seed

lots of Anuuirean lands with half-elf regents (many with the Long Life blood

ability), inclined to be friendly to Tuarhievel and the sidhe, the next time

the Gorgon comes a-knockin`. If you can live for hundreds of years, you might

as well set up some really long-range plans.

IMC I labelled this the "Queen`s Gambit." Her son was also pursuing the

plan ("If you can`t beat `em, join `em!"), when he was taken hostage by the

Big G. Everyone in the know was disappointed when the 1/2elf PC with the Major

bloodline in my Giantdowns game decided to be a druid instead, and pushed an

NPC fighter to be the jarl there. (Of course, he and the skald PC agreed to

push that fighter-jarl together with a handsome sidhe, so it might only have

been a temporary setback....)



Lee.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 5:07 AM





> There are far too many predominantly human domains with half-elven

> regents (other than non-landed wizards) in the 2nd ed material for my

> tastes, but that is just me I guess.



I think this was a concession to the sidhephiles who wanted to play the

standard game as elves without the profound seperation elves have in the

setting material.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Trithemius]

Kenneth Gauck:

> I think this was a concession to the sidhephiles who wanted to play the

> standard game as elves without the profound seperation elves have in

> the setting material.



2e had that stupid problem with multiclassing too, and with humans basically

being crap.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Osprey]

There are far too many predominantly human domains with half-elven regents (other than non-landed wizards) in the 2nd ed material for my tastes, but that is just me I guess.


No kidding&#33; The proportion of 1/2 elf regents is WAY out of whack&#33; Have you ever sat down and counted how many 1/2 elf regents there are in Ruins of Empire? How in the world did they ever make to those positions, let alone keep the loyalty of the human populace?&#33;? I don&#39;t think it was a concession to the "sidhophiles", I think the creators had a thing for 1/2 elves being cooler than plain &#39;ol humans, and elves even cooler but too different to mix. In other words, I think the creators were the original sidhophiles. Anyone wanna&#39; email Rich Baker and find out? Heh heh :lol:

[graham anderson]

the way i see it the sidhe have to have some kind of spirit as they can become ghosts and other undead.

also the way i see things there is currently no afterlife but the shadow world as any and all sririts can be summoned back to cerilia.

this can be explained that azrai was defeated and not totaly destroyed hence the legends that he will rise again. This explains the corruption of the shodow world and no afterlife as azrai was the god of the dead and afterlife but no one has replaced him.

also the rjurik believe in reincarnation and not an afterlife so you could say that they only exist in the shadow world until reborn.

as for healing i have specialist elven mages that are healers in my game. you can cauterise a wound with a flame spell, reduce a fever with a cold spell etc. this makes the mages very inflexible but enables the elves to have healers without clerical magic also being able to heal a thing often makes you able to cause a thing meaning a elven healer if inclined can cause incredible damage to a body.

what do people think of these.

[Osprey]

also the way i see things there is currently no afterlife but the shadow world as any and all sririts can be summoned back to cerilia.


As I understand the cosmology of Aebrynis, the current gods of Cerilia dwell on realms in the Shadow World, and the spirits of the recently deceased must make the journey from where they died through the Shadow World to the safety of the realms of the gods.

The priesthood of Neserie has the job of protecting these spirits from becoming lost or waylaid during this journey - this is why they keep vigil over the recently deceased, for a period (a week, perhaps?) of mourning and remembrance.

Heh heh, now think about all those places in Cerilia where Neserie&#39;s faith is absent... if the Neseriens are correct, there may be many lost, trapped, or waylaid spirits/souls in the Shadow World.

Ever wonder why there are so many undead in the Shadow World? Negative energy/corruption of the SW aside, every single undead present was somebody once...especially if you believe every zombie, skeleton, ghoul, etc. is animated by the spirit of a mortal being.

Makes the idea of death in Cerilia a fearful thing, doesn&#39;t it? Makes the the scarcity of Neserie&#39;s temples rather disturbing, too.

And Cerilians can&#39;t figure out why the Shadow World is encroaching...hmmm.

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 16 2003, 09:42 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Vallariel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:08 PM





> Can you imagine the crisis of faith for the cleric? I can heal this

> dude and that dude and Joe the dwarf, but my God (will not/can

> not) help my beloved unconsious elf buddy... to whom I owe my

> sorry life three times over... He`ll be god shopping in no time.... lol.



Given the way the religious mind used to operate the cleric would have no

crisis of faith, but would say something like, "Oh foolish elf, why do you

fail to see the power of the gods and acknowledge their power? For your

prideful refusal to humble yourself you now lay bleeding and I am powerless

to help you, though I could raise my great grandfather from death." Its the

elf who should go god shopping.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com













There is a bit of faulty logic in the idea that healing an elf would be a violation of a clerics belief or that the elf&#39;s lack of faith has a factor.

Gods for the most part dont watch their clerics when they cast spells and the power of the spells is actually seperate from the god themselves. If I&#39;m a cleric of god A and i go to my gods plane and then SERCETLY cast a spell against my god that spell would fire and it would effect my god as per normal. AFTER the spell&#39;s effect my god would almost 100% revok my spells but not before. At least according to how divine spells are discribed in the core rules. Gods dont determine if a spell is just that is the preview of their clergy. While high level spell MAY catch their attention its the casting that does so, not before the casting.

Also as a good cleric I can cast a healing spell on a evil creature or even a devil or demon and that being WILL be healed. There is nothing in teh rules that say this isnt the case. So this whole idea that elves cant be healed because of their beleifs is not based on any rules or spirit of the rules. And the idea that the arcane magic flowing through an elves blood doesnt hold up because that same magic flows through every blooded human and should this mean that specificaly every blooded human wizard cant be healed by divine magic.

perhaps a better rule would be for every level of the source rating above 5 adds an extra level to the character for natural healing. Thus a 4 level elf in a 8 source rating province heals as a 7th level character and since natural healing rates are times by ones character level this will allow elves in high source areas to heal far faster naturaly without giving them a huge combat advantage with regeneration and without taking the players clerics choice to heal the elf if that clerics feels its right.

NOW IN TURN for every level below 5 in teh soerce rating an elf is treated as 1 level less for natural healing. This will slow the healing rate of elves in area&#39;s blighted. Also if the character level is less than one treat the healing rate for teh elf as 1 not level one but 1 they gain 1 hit point period with rest or treatment period. just 1 hitpoint. This would slow the healing of elves in urban areas greatly if they are in the low to mid levels but it doesnt completely stop the healing process as even teh most urban blighted areas are still conected to nature in some manner.

These rules appear to be more balanced and they dont have huge restrictions to players and huge advantages in combat through regeneration.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Airgedok" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:05 AM



> There is a bit of faulty logic in the idea that healing an elf would be

> a violation of a clerics belief or that the elf`s lack of faith has a

factor.



It is not faulty logic, it is a different set of assumptions. I assumed

last September and I assume now that gods do dispense spells. From my point

of view the notion that I could use a spell against the diety who powered it

is absurd. Taken from a different set of assumptions is might be quite

possible.



> At least according to how divine spells are discribed in the core rules.



Core rules of which game system? How can you tell I don`t use a different

game system, or perhaps just use the Fring rules?



> Also as a good cleric I can cast a healing spell on a evil creature

> or even a devil or demon and that being WILL be healed.



Again, not by my reasoning. It would do the being a harm.



> There is nothing in teh rules that say this isnt the case.



I need no such lisence.



> So this whole idea that elves cant be healed because of their

> beleifs is not based on any rules or spirit of the rules.



Nor did I claim it was so. My argument came from the historical ideas

sometimes made for problems of why bad things sometimes happen to people or

good things fail to happen even when divine favor has been sought.

Sometimes such was attributed to unbelief, sometimes to ritual

uncleanliness, somtimes to a violated taboo. Certainly one could offer

alternate explanations for why it might be so. Personally I have no

problems with elves using or recieving healing magic, but I am not above

offering such ideas for the use of others who have different assumptions

that I do. Such is my magnanimity.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by kgauck@Mar 13 2004, 08:20 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Airgedok" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:05 AM



> There is a bit of faulty logic in the idea that healing an elf would be

> a violation of a clerics belief or that the elf`s lack of faith has a

factor.



It is not faulty logic, it is a different set of assumptions. I assumed

last September and I assume now that gods do dispense spells. From my point

of view the notion that I could use a spell against the diety who powered it

is absurd. Taken from a different set of assumptions is might be quite

possible.



> At least according to how divine spells are discribed in the core rules.



Core rules of which game system? How can you tell I don`t use a different

game system, or perhaps just use the Fring rules?



> Also as a good cleric I can cast a healing spell on a evil creature

> or even a devil or demon and that being WILL be healed.



Again, not by my reasoning. It would do the being a harm.



> There is nothing in teh rules that say this isnt the case.



I need no such lisence.



> So this whole idea that elves cant be healed because of their

> beleifs is not based on any rules or spirit of the rules.



Nor did I claim it was so. My argument came from the historical ideas

sometimes made for problems of why bad things sometimes happen to people or

good things fail to happen even when divine favor has been sought.

Sometimes such was attributed to unbelief, sometimes to ritual

uncleanliness, somtimes to a violated taboo. Certainly one could offer

alternate explanations for why it might be so. Personally I have no

problems with elves using or recieving healing magic, but I am not above

offering such ideas for the use of others who have different assumptions

that I do. Such is my magnanimity.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com














Core rules of which game system? How can you tell I don`t use a different


The core rules as described by wizards of the coast is what I was refering too. As for which rules you used i cant say but if you start taking rules for parcheesie it becomes irrelivent to the forum. your defence is that of diversion. I simply was showing that according to the core rules of the game clerics are granted the spells and they control them. The diety and the spells they crant are independant of each other once granted to the cleric. The reason for this is obvious as it maintains the principles of free will to the player and not the storyteller/DM. If gods control every aspect of their spells then you lose texture and flavour to the game. How can you have the well intended but misguided cleric? That cleric wouldnt be able to use their spells for their misguided beleif and thus know instantly they were mistaken. The power hungry cleric wishes to advance in teh clergy and uses their spells to climb the ladder that story line is gone too as their god would never allow such use of their power. Free will of teh clergy is an itegral part of the core rule system outside of the players as it allows for richer stroylines. BUt even more fundemental to Roleplaying is player free will. Almost all games warn of DM/storyteller interferance in this area of roleplaying it eliminates an integral part of the game. To give the actual power of teh spelss (not their origine but the actual spell power) away from the player and into the hands of the Dm/storyteller takes much away from the player limits their choices in a very heavy handed manner. NOTE I&#39;m not talking about concequences or the lack there of I&#39;m actually talking about controling the character or a vital aspect of teh character. This is something that is against teh spirit of almost every RPG created.

What the core rules show is that the reasoning behind these proposed restrictions to the elves as a violation of the intended core rules and they violate the presented cosmology of magic. I assumed that people are talking about DnD and that teh core rules are teh foundation of any conversion of birthright. That is why I used them as a basis for a counter arguement. Your statements using the basic frame work of "how do i know you did use something else" divert attention to the issue. And really irrelivant as I will show.

Heres a new rule if a character jumps over another character the character that was leaped over is considered captured and remove from the game. Well anyone who presents me with reasoning why this isnt the case showing how skill tests or spells or feats or combat would all have to be in play for such a capture to take effect based on the core rules could be ignored under your presented defence. I could simply state "how do you know I didnt use a different rules set?" I&#39;m using teh rules of checkers for this presnted rule change. WELL that may be well and true but irrelivent since this forum and proposed ideas are all about converting a 2e world setting into the 3e core rules there fore any rules presnted has to fit within the paramaters of the core rules. the fact that I&#39;m using checkers as my rulrs to justify my proposed capturing via jumping means nothing. Just because I used a different rule set doesnt lend any weight to my idea. The reason for this is that checkers doesnt have anything to do with D&D, nor does it have anything to do with the goal of the forum.

I assumed that you had presented an idea based on a perceieved vision of the game based on some kind of understanding of the core rules. I still beleive this despided your question to indicate you might have used something totaly seperate from this. I then presented you with a counter point based on the core rule system as to while your presented view point isnt supported by the rules. You really didnt address my points directly but rather danced around them.

I agree with the principle of using real life eamples to provide a referance and support for an idea for a rule change. I do so myself but since faith is soemthing that we can not objectively evaluate in the real world I prefer to use the system presented in the rules as a basis as they are something we can objectively view and evaluate.

Now all this said and done neither this post nor my last one was an attack on you nor your idea actually it was simply a presented view of how many of the posts in this thread go very much against the rules of the game both the presented cosmology and the spirit of the rules. I was presnting counter points with "evidence" (and I use this term very loosely) to back up my claims.

I think any and every rule change or addition or deletion should be viewed from the two view points of the original game setting and the new spiirit of the 3e rules. Its these two view points that provide context and a yard stick for any changes. That is why i used them to rebute your presented idea.

[Osprey]

perhaps a better rule would be for every level of the source rating above 5 adds an extra level to the character for natural healing. Thus a 4 level elf in a 8 source rating province heals as a 7th level character and since natural healing rates are times by ones character level this will allow elves in high source areas to heal far faster naturaly without giving them a huge combat advantage with regeneration and without taking the players clerics choice to heal the elf if that clerics feels its right.

NOW IN TURN for every level below 5 in teh soerce rating an elf is treated as 1 level less for natural healing. This will slow the healing rate of elves in area&#39;s blighted. Also if the character level is less than one treat the healing rate for teh elf as 1 not level one but 1 they gain 1 hit point period with rest or treatment period. just 1 hitpoint. This would slow the healing of elves in urban areas greatly if they are in the low to mid levels but it doesnt completely stop the healing process as even teh most urban blighted areas are still conected to nature in some manner.

These rules appear to be more balanced and they dont have huge restrictions to players and huge advantages in combat through regeneration.

More balanced? Huge restrictions? Huge advantages to combat? Where are you getting these ideas?&#33;

Natural healing is a slow process, and adjusting the rate up or down by a few levels means a few more or less hit points per day. Give me a break&#33; This is such a minor game effect as to make it hardly worth the trouble of introducing as a rule - wasted text, in other words. Oh wait, you mean they can heal subdual damage faster? Great&#33; <_<

The original system of regeneration, as I presented it, was based on hourly rates of healing - it&#39;s not fast healing like outsiders or vampires have. And hourly rates of regeneration, I promise, have no dramatic effect on any single combat, though they certainly would have an effect on a long raiding campaign and on an adventure scale - but no more so than magical healing does for all of the other races, and much less in fact, as other races can heal during combat and/or immediately afterwards. So in the very short term, the elves still lose out if they don&#39;t have magical healers (though in 3.x their bards would probably help a bit with that).

As for balance, if elves lose this ability in low source areas, and have a hard time finding significant magical healing, then I think the power starts to balance out quite well, thank you.

Personally, I think slow regeneration (the hourly type) is highly overrated as some amazing power when compared to the powers of magical healing spells, which can instantly close up and sometimes entirely erase mortal wounds in seconds. THAT is truly miraculous and powerful, and we only consider it &#39;balanced&#39; because it&#39;s a staple of D&D high-fantasy, where adventurers can "take a licking and keep on ticking" through room after room after room of monsters in the dungeon. Yeah.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Airgedok" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 5:57 AM





> The core rules as described by wizards of the coast is what I was

refering too. As for which rules you used i cant say but if you start taking

rules for parcheesie it becomes irrelivent to the forum. your defence is

that of diversion.



Not so. This forum is based on the setting, not on a particular rules set.

Conversions have been done to place BR into many rules sets, including

radical home brews and other published game systems (Ars Magica immediatly

comes to mind). Those who play in the WOC`s rules set often prefer to think

in terms of d20 rather than 3x because of the need to put the setting above

the core rules set. Typically on this forum, in one form or another,

setting is held to trump any specific rules set, and I agree with that. If

a player wants a justification for Sidhe druids, I am happy to help them

argue the point, if they want a justification for why Sidhe can`t have

druids, if I have an idea that might serve, I am happy to contribute.



My own notion is that elves are best served by an alternate druid class in

which those class abilities innate to elves as well as wildshape are

exchanged for elemental magic specialization. Because of where I have taken

cosmological explanations of Wildshape (I think it is an exchange with a

sentient spririt creature in the Shadow World) I find it inappropriate for

elves. I could have two entirely different kinds of wildshape, one the SW

exchange, another a sylvan illusion, but I don`t like two sets of

explanations for one power. I`d rather explore the elemental nature of the

Sidhe than make them strait druids.



> If gods control every aspect of their spells then you lose texture

> and flavour to the game. How can you have the well intended

> but misguided cleric?



When you make cosmological choices, things change. I would prefer to

explore a different set of issues. I really haven`t encountered anyone

defending the set of choices in the core rules too much. Typically, they

are under attack. In my previous post, I mentioned taboo and ritual

uncleanliness. I like this kinds of clerical issues better. My approach to

polytheism is heavily influenced by ancient religion. I prefer to see

clerics giving too much offence to the gods and being punished, rather than

giving too little offence and wandering around misguided. I carry these

theme on beyond the world of the clerics and gods, into the spirit world,

where there are many powerful spirits who must not be offended while you

journey in that realm. Its a different set of choices to be sure, and one

that really puts PC`s on guard, rather than giving them free reign, but I

don`t think that`s a problem, I think its a design choice.



> Free will of teh clergy is an itegral part of the core rule system

> outside of the players as it allows for richer stroylines. BUt

> even more fundemental to Roleplaying is player free will.

> Almost all games warn of DM/storyteller interferance in this

> area of roleplaying it eliminates an integral part of the game.



The kind of DM interfearance they warn about is arbitrary excercise which

players have no context in which to interpret the excercise except player v

player or player v DM. The world in which the PC`s are abosolute free

agents and can come and go doing things no one could possibly do in the real

world without making powerful enemies is a conceit I have little interest.

The whole world wasn`t made as a playground of the PC`s to muck about as

they please. Kill a stranger on the road in Abbator in Roesone and find

that you are now an outlaw there. Many D&D games presume that everything is

a potential target for the PC`s. They might kill anything for its xp and

gp. I take a totally different approach, and so, yes it restricts their

freedom of action, since now actions have consequences.



> NOTE I`m not talking about concequences or the lack there of

> I`m actually talking about controling the character or a vital aspect

> of teh character. This is something that is against teh spirit of

> almost every RPG created.



Perhaps its against the spirit as you understand it, but I think its not so.

I don`t need to assume that gods are totally ignorant of the uses of their

power because I can`t bear to impinge on the free will of the players.

That, I say, is the heavy handed DM. The one who gives players no clue as

to which outrageous offence is acceptable and which one will bring down

unforseen consequences. Too often RPG`s assume that the PC`s are criminals

going about reaking mayhem in their wake, and its all part of the game.

Kill the innkeeper, kill the man on the roadside, kill the dragon, kill,

kill, kill. And let`s not forget to grab their treasure and tally the xp`s.

Try that in my campaign, act like a bandit, and you will live like a bandit.

Robin Hood was constantly pursued by the sheriff`s men, and that too would

be your fate.



> What the core rules show is that the reasoning behind these

> proposed restrictions to the elves as a violation of the intended

> core rules and they violate the presented cosmology of magic.



So, make a new cosmology. QED.



> Well anyone who presents me with reasoning why this isnt the

> case showing how skill tests or spells or feats or combat would

> all have to be in play for such a capture to take effect based on

> the core rules could be ignored under your presented defence.



You would get praise from me, not quibbles about some published rules set,

and I have six or seven years of posts to that effect to back me up. My

mantra is "ignore the rules". You say you prefer the Palladium combat

system? Great. You say you invented a homebrew magic system? Great. You

say you`ve abandon the classs of D&D for a point-buy system like GURPS?

Great. You say you run your whole campaign using Hero Wars? Great. These

things are actually going on here. And, I celebrate it, not condemn it.

Let`s speak of principles applied and game purposes achived, not

restrictions placed on those principles or ends by some rule somewhere.



> WELL that may be well and true but irrelivent since this forum

> and proposed ideas are all about converting and 2e world setting

> into the 3e core rules there fore any rules presnted has to fit within

> the paramaters of the core rules.



No its not. And, no its not. People do a lot of that here (if you ask me,

too much) but that is in no way the purpose of this forum. Our purpose is

to discuss and advance the cause of the setting, not the 3e core rules set.

Some may want to use 3e, I say great. Some want to go in a more d20

direction, I say great. Some want to abandon those for other systems or

homebrew, I say great. As long as they are playing BR, I say its great no

matter how they do so. I also think am Avanil-Bouruine chess set would be

cool and that a commemorative mint should produce one, lets discuss it.



> I assumed that you had presented an idea based on a perceieved

> vision of the game based on some kind of understanding of the core

> rules.



Setting over rules. Rules bad, setting good.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

Kenneth,

I was under the impression that this particular forum, the D20 BRCS Platest Comments one, IS meant to be a place to discuss the BRCS playtest version and the results of playtesting it. This would then make everything within this particular Forum fall under the umbrella of the D20 system at least, and mostly under the D&D rules system as well. Whereas the Royal Library seems to be the catch-all forum for discussing anything else BR-related...

Now don&#39;t get me wrong - though I do run my own BRCS campaign with that ruleset, I&#39;m also quite interested in any alternative systems, and in general am most interested in setting over rules (and find myself switching hats between the 2 more often than not). But I&#39;ve come to realize that using this forum for non D20 discussions too much can make for a whole lotta&#39; headaches for the BRCS revision team, who use this forum as a basis for doing the revision project. So I try to respect that project, and now post the distinctly flavor elements and more house-rules type ideas in the Royal Library.

Osprey

[kgauck]

Osprey, these are distinctions which are invisible from the mailing list.

All I can see from this end is what questions are being asked and what kinds

of conversations are going on. The segregation of posts into 3x conversion,

general BR setting, or what have you does not occur on the mailing list.

>From where I am sitting, all posts are just posts. Hence when I answered

the question on sidhe healing last september I was not attempting to conform

to an anticipated 3x conversion.



That would not have effected my answer, since I still hold that the BR

setting should trump the core rules set in a conversion, and so in my

conjectural answer on sidhe healing (and it was conjectural because I have

no problem with sidhe having healing spells) I would respect BR materials

over any other materials.



Had I been aware that this question was originally raised in a BRCS

conversion thread it might have militated against some of my statements

about other game systems.



Keep in mind the differing workings of the boards and the list. Especially

when you`re asking me to defend something I wrote last September. ;-)



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by Osprey@Mar 13 2004, 02:13 PM


More balanced? Huge restrictions? Huge advantages to combat? Where are you getting these ideas?&#33;

/snip
Making a rule that prohibits elves from recieving healing from a human cleric is hugely restrictive. I&#39;m getting these ideas from people who have posted on this thread.

Giving humans the sole benificiaries on combat healing presents them with a huge advantage to combat. Now while dwarves and halflings can be clerics their population numbers make them really a side issue.

You say that natural healing would amount to almost no effect and I agree but it provides the same flavour you presented with out major balance issues. What I&#39;m seeing is a very strong "movement" to put more and more restrictions on elf characters and no corresponding advnatages. I&#39;ve seen arguements that state that because elves dont age they should not get bonuses for age and yet the example of ageless abilities from character classes all states that the character gets the bonuses not the penalties for the class feature. This is just a single example of the penalise elves and no coresponding work on providing advantages for their nature.


I was unclear in how I presented my counter idea in terms of the balance issues. how I thought it was unbalancing and where i should have been more clear. perhaps this puts it in a clearer perspective.

[Airgedok]

kgauck;

You seem a bit miffed that i brought something up from last september. I quoted teh whole thread because it was so long ago. i dont feel that I doing anything underhanded about taking an old post to present a counter to the ideas presented. I chose your thread because it presented the ideas for restricitng elves fron recieving healing in a well reasoned manner. I ignored some other posts that were not as well thoughted out.

I then presented reasoning for my objections. I kept doing back to the core rules because this was about the specific project to converting BR to d20. I never tried to state that all house rules that are generated should be outlawed or resinded. I simply pointed out that there where specific violations to the core rules. I would also submit that from my understanding of the setting there was nothing in 2e birthright that prohibited a human cleric from healing an elf. (i could be mistaken, I just not aware on any rules that state such a restriction) So these seem to be a case of the setting not supporting your ideas on teh restrictions.

now i have read that you are unaware of which forum you post to. Is there no way you can determine what forum you are posting to? This would at least explaign why i took the stand i did. If you say "to hell with the rules" and just play how you like thats fine but that in turn makes the need for a conversion irreavent. Just take teh source material and do with it how you choose. But I think that there is a desire for people to get a set of d20 rules that take both the spirit of teh d20 system and the spirit of the birthright setting. If the setting always trumps the core rules than there is no need for a conversion as you&#39;d just use the 2e rules as they are used in the original setting. There is an advantage to having these rules converted that melds and changes the original setting as it provides player who like teh d20 system with a rich setting. The original setting shouldnt be viewed as perfect or without room for improvement either. In the old birthright setting clerics where restricted to blunt weapons the d20 system removed this restriction should the setting trump this? i dont think so i dont think that Br is lessened bu clerics using swords. Granted the blunt weapons in BR setting was a direct result of the 2e core rules that prohibited edged weapons but it was a part of the setting.

I dont think its out of line to show how you idea was a violation of the core rules and the cosmology of the core rules. I think it adds a vital perspective to you points and how they have direct effect on teh ules. Many people want a d20 birthright system shouldnt a d20 BR setting be in the spirit of both the setting and the rules it uses?

[kgauck]

Everything else aside, I`m not very impressed with the vanilla D&D

cosmology, and would prefer to stick with BR cosmology. As others have

noted elsewhere, much of standard D&D cosmology is in fact FR or Greyhawk

cosmology, and better suited to those settings than it is to ours. As such

I would not default to the core rules on questions of "would a spell work if

you used it to violate your principles." Especially if that violation is an

express part of the BR setting.



If we assume that healing elves is impossible, because it was the predicate

of a question and question itself asks how this would effect belief in gods,

I argue that it would not, because the cause of the spell failure would

typically be attached to the elves, not to the gods.



Arguing against this based on D&D cosmology which is not mirrored in BR does

not persuade me. Even in terms of an attempt to craft an official

understanding, I would resist bringing cosmological understandings into BR

that are not native. Even where such things occur in the core rules I would

regard them as little more than a suggestion. The cosmology is properly the

perview of the DM (as is the metaphysics) because ultimatly they need to

apply this things in a satisfying way.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 10:30 PM 3/13/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



>Everything else aside, I`m not very impressed with the vanilla D&D

>cosmology, and would prefer to stick with BR cosmology. As others have

>noted elsewhere, much of standard D&D cosmology is in fact FR or Greyhawk

>cosmology, and better suited to those settings than it is to ours.



When it comes to the BR cosmology I haven`t dedicated much thought to the

issue except as it applies to the why`s and wherefore`s of true, lesser and

divine magic. In the past I`ve floated the hypothesis that magic is in

some way connected to the inner or outer planes with the SW acting as a

somewhat porous buffer between Aebrynis and that power. That is, the

energy that spells draw upon is pulled from either the outer planes where

the gods reside or from the elemental planes, with the SW preventing the

majority of power to be transferred to Aebrynis. Only divinatory and

illusory magics can pass fully through the SW. Elves are able to cast

arcane magics because they have a connection to mebhaighl which is,

essentially, a connection to the land or the material world which is, in

turn connected to the inner elemental planes. They are able to cast arcane

magics because that connection allows them to draw magical energy from

beyond the material world, bypassing the buffering effect of the

SW. Having a bloodline grants a human a direct connection to the outer

planes (where the gods from whom the bloodline is originally derived) and

thus allows them to cast the more powerful true magic. Divine magics, of

course, have their basis on those same outer planes where the gods who

grant such magic reside.



In that context what the exact makeup of the BR cosmology might be is

pretty much up for grabs. It might be the traditional D&D set up, or it

could be something completely unique to BR--with or without the ideas

expressed in the Manual of the Planes. There really needn`t even really be

a separation between "inner" and "outer" systems. There just needs to be

something beyond the SW.



None of this has ever actually come up in my campaign except in relation to

running the Sword of Roele adventure ages ago in which PCs deal with the

Three Bros. Mages desire to leave Aebrynis for planar parts unknown. Even

then it was theoretical information of only academic interest to the more

scholarly inclined PCs. In that context, however, it was kind of fun to

describe, and gave the players a lot of pleasure in that they were then "in

the know" regarding the nature of the setting`s cosmology and how it

affected the campaign`s dynamics. It was worthwhile elaborating for that

alone.



It`s also a motivation for making the Sidhe more oriented towards the

elementalist version of nature spells (as indicated in the Tuarhieval

sourcebook) as arcane magics rather than druidic magic as a whole.



Gary

[Green Knight]

I have taken the druid and un-connected him from Erik.



Make no mistake; the majority of Erik`s priesthood is still made up of

druids. However, it is not exclusively made up of druids - there are

some clerics as well - nor are other gods conceptually restricted from

being served by druids.



To me, druids are still priests, but they represent a very different way

of connecting with the god than does the cleric. The cleric is

intimately connected to his god, while the druid is connected to nature.

Druids represent and older, more primeval, way of worship, common when

the world was younger, but not so anymore. Now, Erik`s druids are a kind

of throwback, but far beck in time, maybe all gods were worshiped only

by druids - I can easily picture a proto-Anduiras, the Lion King (pun

intended), being served by druids or any of the other gods for that

matter. I can also easily envision rare druids of Ruonril or Kriesha

etc. also exist.



In game terms, druids draw their power (divine magic) from the Inner

Planes, which work well with their more elemental-type powers. Their

nature-related powers also fit nicely with a primeval form of worship

(as for the weapon restrictions and all that...it is just too minor to

really matter).



Clerics on the other hand, draw their power (divine magic) from the

outer Planes, which fit well with the closely-connected-to-my-god

concept since that is where the gods hold house.



So we have two types of spellcaster, and I`ve chosen to label both

"priest", both are dedicated to god (but in a different way) both draw

their power from extra-planar sources (Inner or Outer).



With this variant, you can decide either way whether the sidhe should be

able to have druids. If you say that druidic power derives not from the

gods, but from connection to nature (but that druids CAN dedicate

themselves to the service of a god), the elves are certainly eligible to

be druids. Using this variant, elven druids would be the shepherds of

the forest and the ones that guide other elves in the way of the

sidhelien spirituality (for instance). Or you can still reject that

elves have any priest-like types at all, that they may be a spiritual

folk, but that they do not practice it like other races do.



Oh, and arcane magic, that is derived from the living land - the Prime

Material Plane of Aebrynis.

[Osprey]

Making a rule that prohibits elves from recieving healing from a human cleric is hugely restrictive. I&#39;m getting these ideas from people who have posted on this thread.


Ah...well, that&#39;s something different than the original Regenration attribute I had proposed WAY back at the very beginning of this thread...

As I&#39;ve read and considered all the various views on the topic of elves can&#39;t be healed by clerical magic, I think it&#39;s just silly. Elves could definitely be healed by any kind of magics...if anything, I&#39;d think their bodies would take quite well to reconstructive magical energies.

As for immortality...that just is messy mechanically speaking. In such cases, I tend to go with Flavour First. Which means I consider the concept and imagine the Sidhelien as a race and how they are characterized, and then I&#39;ll go flesh out the details and mechanics of their abilities from there. I think it&#39;s important to go about it this way, and agree with Kenneth&#39;s general philosophy of setting over mechanics...probably because I&#39;m a career GM/DM who doesn&#39;t hesitate to change the rules when I don&#39;t feel like they work well for the setting.

I imagine Sidhelien immortality as something very akin to eternal youth. They reach young adulthood equivalent, and then simply never go past it&#33; Now, if you&#39;re biologically stuck in one place, might it not be difficult to gain the biological advantages and disadvantages of aging? Part of the wisdom that comes with aging comes from one&#39;s death creeping nearer...as our time on this planet shortens, we become more and more aware of it, and make more use of what time we have left. This is an attitude few if any Sidhe will ever hold.

Besides...those puny aging penalties are nothing compared to a few centuries&#39; worth of training&#33; If you want to equalize the elder Sidhe, there&#39;s plenty of ways to do so as a DM, but I see no reason to make it a BRCS system issue.

In general, I think you believe that immortality is somewhow a value-less racial trait because it provides no immediate combat or statistical advantages. But anyone who considers the potential of thousand-year old bad-asses knows that within the larger context of the setting, this is a HUGE advantage...and last but not least, consider that elves as a racial template are still +0 ECL, same as humans...with lots of nature-friendly goodies, Dex and Cha bonuses (traded for Str and Con), lowlight vision, etc....you can argue till you&#39;re blue in the face whether you think this is balanced or not, but I&#39;d say that immortality simply doesn&#39;t calculate into that ECL at all...hence it shouldn&#39;t be a character-scale balance issue in the first place (and taking no aging penalties stays pretty internally balanced with getting no aging bonuses, don&#39;t you think? If anything, it&#39;s a slight net gain for the elves).

[RaspK_FOG]

Regarding immortality, I always represented it as you do, Osprey, eternal, never-ending youth. And while other races tend to have wiser and more mind-powerful elders, the Sidhelien have elders of hundreds of years of age, and so even out the age-dependent bonuses on mental ability scores...

On the other hand, for those of you who think that humans are too powerful and most appropriate for hack-and-slashers, might I remind you that in BR most of the fun is being part of the political force&#33; Consider the unfortunate human noble who won&#39;t be able to lift his rapier and main-gauche with much proficiency after, what, 30, 45 years of game-time, while the elf will stand proud and tall while watching his friend&#39;s (or foe&#39;s) great-grandchildren becoming weary old-men&#33; Even for BR, where physical ability scores aren&#39;t as important as in core D&D rules, a -6 penalty in all of them for only a +3 bonus on mental ability scores really hurts, especially considering that a pair of gloves of dexterity +2, for example, is rare in BR.

[geeman]

At 12:54 AM 3/15/2004 +0100, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>Regarding immortality, I always represented it as you do,

>Osprey, eternal, never-ending youth. And while other races

>tend to have wiser and more mind-powerful elders, the Sidhelien have

>elders of hundreds of years of age, and so even out the age-dependent

>bonuses on mental ability scores...



Generally, I think we`re best off assuming that by "immortal" we really

mean "eternally young" or, at least, having stopped aging at some

particular point. Folks do sometimes mean a sort of Promethean immortality

that can be as much a curse as a blessing, but when talking about BR elves

we mean the former. The combination of blood abilities Long Life and

Invulnerability are more like the Promethean version, and since we have a

method of articulating that in the bloodline system itself we can just go

with "ever young" for immortality.



What is the age at which the Sidhe stop aging, BTW? In terms of human

maturation, I mean. 18? 25? 30?



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:04 PM



> What is the age at which the Sidhe stop aging, BTW? In terms

> of human maturation, I mean. 18? 25? 30?



If we were inclined to use the Peter Jackson movies as a guide, Hugo Weaving

(Elrond) was in his early forties during the making of the pictures, being

born in 1960. All of the other elves are substantially younger. Cate

Blanchett was in her early thirties (b. 1969), and both Liv Tyler and

Orlando Bloom were in their twenties (b.1977 both).



The example of living forever but getting old the whole time is Tithonus who

got so old he became a cicada (tettix in Greek) after Dawn asked for his

immortality but forgot to ask for perpetual youth (we RPG players could have

told her about this problem with wishes). Prometheus was a titan, and so

both immortal and not subject to decrepitude. After all, it just wouldn`t

do for Atlas to get old and drop the sky on us.



The kind of traditional wizard who is long lived, but very old (more like a

Saruman or Gandalf to go back to my earlier reference) is tied up with a

variety of different ideas - they got old, then learned to live forever,

because so many secrets need be incovered, they old slow againg rather than

prevent it, or are simply old because age conveys knowledge, wisdom, and

experience. The classic D&D formulation of such a figure is the lich.

Clearly a Tithonus figure but through his melevolence does not become a

cicada, but a kind of animated corpse, perhaps more like the ring wraiths.

How nice of Tolkien to provide three models of longevity/immortality for us.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[JanGunterssen]

I know that I&#39;m touching a point already touched by previous posts, but I&#39;d like to add some logical ideas regarding of elven immortality, just
in the spirit of creativity:

As elves are immortal (live forever young), and we assume sexual reproduction, they could bear children during the whole of their lives.
Why we assume they have low rating births?

If they only have one or two children in their lives, should we assume longer pregnation times as they have longer maturation times?

If so, their bloodlines will be less mixed than humans, so they could usually possess greater bloodlines. Of course there would be minor lines (as elves at Deismaar would be closer or farther to the deceased gods), but the inevitable process of blood diluting that seems to be the norm in human lands wouldn&#39;t be in elven lands. We can see that every elven regent has at least major bloodline.

Why (if they can live forever) there should be no epic-classed elves? Arguing that they doesn&#39;t learn as fast as humans... shouldn&#39;t be any important individual of levels beyond 20? I know that BR is a low level setting as opposed to FR, but for me makes no sense that every 3000 years old elven has not any interest in advance his powers... Or is that is no elf older than 1000 years? If so, why?

Any suggestions?
Any ideas?

[RaspK_FOG]

Potential misunderstandings: What I meant was that elves do not physically age past the border of being middle aged.
A tettix? I am Greek, yet have never heard of the word...
There is one greek myth of a creature who could not die, but I do not remember who was he... By "could not die", I am talking about the blessing-curse dualistic motif.
Tolkien&#39;s elves aged without losing their majestic beauty or their physique; good examples are Galadriel, Elrond, and of course Cirdan, the only elf we ever see with silvery-grey hair and long beard&#33;
Ring-wraiths were more like specters: creatures of substantiality in the Shadow World (of which we have a dismal reference in the Lord of the Rings (with the agonising detail of Glornfindel, an ancient elf who had seen the Light of the Two Trees, shining brightly as it ran down the Ring-wraiths on to Loudwater {I think that was the river}), with surreal, shadowy and invisible physical form in the material world except for what they wear and carry.
Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and the other two (blue) Istari were the only real mortal wizards to walk on Middle Earth: elves wielded subtle and powerful magicks naturally, those who belonged to the dark side were sorcerers (who, unlike wizards who are defined as good, are evil in nature, and have nothing to do with D&D differentiations, with the apparent issue of the interchangeability of the words "sorcery", "magic", etc. in almost all fantasy novels), and all the other Ainur (whether Valar or Maiar) also wielded magic naturally. Also, humans could become sorcerers and necromancers, but not wizards. FInally, the Istari were all Maiar.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 7:42 PM





> tettix? I am Greek, yet have never heard of the word...



Its a Homeric word. The Latin word cicada is taken from it. As a word

several thousand years old, its no surprise its no longer current. I can

find many much younger English words that no one would recognize. Wrecan

(to banish), Byrne (a coat of mail), Raed (advice, counsel) are examples

useful for BR. (Well, no one except Homericists and Beowulfians,

respectively.)



http://www.earthlife.net/insects/cicadidae.html

Gordon`s Cicada page contains some history and mythology of the insect in

question.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Airgedok]

Again i see a typical responce to anything elven on the forums. There is a huge reluctance to provide any sort of positive benifit to them and there is a constant push for more restrictions. Specificly creating mechanics to limit them.

I would claim that your charge that i feel immortality is useless is unfounded and merely added to make it appear that I&#39;m asking for "hack & slash" freindly rules. I have NEVER ASKED for ANYTHING of the kind. have been very much a flavour proponent but i also understand that a d20 conversion is going to have to use the tools of the core rules. That means making the old rules fit the new rules. That also means dealing with the new philosophy of these rules.

The idea that the new rules cosmology is FR or greyhawk "only" is misleading. The way magic is is used now is different then in teh older versions. The restrictions on magic have been open up greatly. Far more open then FR and greyhawk. There has been no great push to make magic cosmolgy reflected in the rules either. Rangers are still divine spell casters, Divine magic is still constidered to be nature and diety driven and arcane magic is still considered arcane seperate from nature and teh gods. Where has been teh push to make the rules fit the BR cosmology?

It seem to be that if anyone actually wants to talk rules you brand them as a proponent of the halk & slash mentality. If thats the case why even bothering with a conversion? Who needs rules? Most of my posts have been about curbing the "get the elf" mentality thats been cultivated on the forum. I find this to be systematic the "no clerical healing for the elf & no age advantages (like thats a real hack and slash push on my part) are simply examples i presented.

[ConjurerDragon]

RaspK_FOG schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1956

>

> RaspK_FOG wrote:

> Potential misunderstandings:[LIST] What I meant was that elves do not physically age past the border of being middle aged. A tettix? I am Greek, yet have never heard of the word... There is one greek myth of a creature who could not die, but I do not remember who was he... By "could not die", I am talking about the blessing-curse dualistic motif.

>

Prometheus? Whos liver was eaten by an eagle, yet could not die and

regenerated liver so that the eagle came day after day to feed on his

liver so that Prometheus would have to suffer endlessly as punishment?

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck schrieb:



>----- Original Message -----

>From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

>Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 7:42 PM

>

>

>

>

>>tettix? I am Greek, yet have never heard of the word...

>>

>>

>

>Its a Homeric word. The Latin word cicada is taken from it. As a word

>several thousand years old, its no surprise its no longer current. I can

>find many much younger English words that no one would recognize. Wrecan

>(to banish), Byrne (a coat of mail), Raed (advice, counsel) are examples

>useful for BR. (Well, no one except Homericists and Beowulfians,

>respectively.)

>

Except for Raed you are right, never heard of Wrecan and the others. But

Raed looks similar to the german Rat which actually means advices even

today :-)

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

Its a Homeric word. The Latin word cicada is taken from it. As a word
several thousand years old, its no surprise its no longer current. I can
find many much younger English words that no one would recognize. Wrecan
(to banish), Byrne (a coat of mail), Raed (advice, counsel) are examples
useful for BR. (Well, no one except Homericists and Beowulfians,
respectively.)

Heh, well, I&#39;ll bet most Scandanavians would recognize Byrne, as Swedish &#39;brynja&#39; has the same meaning (also "ringbrynja", a chain shirt or hauberk). And &#39;rad&#39; (except the a has an umlaut above it, but I don&#39;t know how to type it) is the same as Old English &#39;raed.&#39; I think...it&#39;s been about 12 years since I spoke much Swedish. :huh:

Of course, Old English is a lot closer to Danish and Old Norse than it is to modern English, so probably this isn&#39;t a big surprise :)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by JanGunterssen@Mar 15 2004, 07:29 PM
I know that I&#39;m touching a point already touched by previous posts, but I&#39;d like to add some logical ideas regarding of elven immortality, just
in the spirit of creativity:

As elves are immortal (live forever young), and we assume sexual reproduction, they could bear children during the whole of their lives.
Why we assume they have low rating births?

If they only have one or two children in their lives, should we assume longer pregnation times as they have longer maturation times?

If so, their bloodlines will be less mixed than humans, so they could usually possess greater bloodlines. Of course there would be minor lines (as elves at Deismaar would be closer or farther to the deceased gods), but the inevitable process of blood diluting that seems to be the norm in human lands wouldn&#39;t be in elven lands. We can see that every elven regent has at least major bloodline.

Why (if they can live forever) there should be no epic-classed elves? Arguing that they doesn&#39;t learn as fast as humans... shouldn&#39;t be any important individual of levels beyond 20? I know that BR is a low level setting as opposed to FR, but for me makes no sense that every 3000 years old elven has not any interest in advance his powers... Or is that is no elf older than 1000 years? If so, why?

Any suggestions?
Any ideas?
There was good article in Dragon awhile back (When WotC still owned it) concerning elves. It was a 3.0 article by the way. In it, IIRC, they talked about the &#39;low birthrate&#39; of elves compared to their long lives. It had something to do with them only becoming fertile at certain times, hence thy could be sexually promiscuous without having a large number of offspring.

[geeman]

At 01:29 AM 3/16/2004 +0100, JanGunterssen wrote:



> As elves are immortal (live forever young), and we assume sexual

> reproduction, they could bear children during the whole of their lives.

> Why we assume they have low rating births?



Generally longer lived creatures tend to have lower birth rates. That`s

not always the case and it`s nothing like a straight line relationship when

it is, but in general long lifespan and birth rate are on either end of a

teeter totter. Of course, one needn`t maintain that in a fantasy RPG, but

it does seem to keep some sort of verisimilitude in the campaign,

especially if one recognizes that without a lower birth rate there is

increasingly little explanation for why elves haven`t taken over the planet

by now....



> If they only have one or two children in their lives, should we assume

> longer pregnation times as they have longer maturation times?



That`s generally the assumption that I`ve heard for pretty much the same

reasons as those above. (It also needn`t necessarily be the case... for

the same reasons as those above.)



> If so, their bloodlines will be less mixed than humans, so they could

> usually possess greater bloodlines. Of course there would be minor lines

> (as elves at Deismaar would be closer or farther to the deceased gods),

> but the inevitable process of blood diluting that seems to be the norm in

> human lands wouldn`t be in elven lands. We can see that every elven

> regent has at least major bloodline.



It`s kind of debatable if there are more bloodlines in the population of

Cerilia now than there were right after Deismaar or if both the number of

scions is on decline and the power of bloodlines is as well. There are

several methods for maintaining or improving bloodlines. The most powerful

blooded characters in the setting tend to be ones who got their bloodlines

at Deismaar, but it`s difficult to say whether their bloodlines were that

high to begin with or if their modern manifestations are the result of

centuries of maintenance and RP expenditures. After some past discussion

of this kind of thing I think its reasonable to assume that bloodlines went

through a pretty dramatic "die off" period in the generations right after

Deismaar, but have been steadily increasing in both numbers and strength in

the centuries since in a way that would be commensurate with population

growth and technological advances.



>Why (if they can live forever) there should be no epic-classed elves?

>Arguing that they doesn`t learn as fast as humans... shouldn`t be any

>important individual of levels beyond 20? I know that BR is a low level

>setting as opposed to FR, but for me makes no sense that every 3000 years

>old elven has not any interest in advance his powers... Or is that is no

>elf older than 1000 years? If so, why?



Well, that one`s definitely a stickler. The short answer is that it`s a

sort of game designer fiat that the setting is "low level" and that the

characters in the setting should, therefore, be of standard 1st-20th level

for the most part. It doesn`t necessarily make sense given the way D&D has

always worked and it still doesn`t make a lot of sense, though some folks

do like to point out that one stops getting XP awards for encounters that

have CR values only a few levels below that of a character, so "on average"

elves (or characters with Long Life) will get ever dwindling XP awards and

eventually stop getting them at all unless they participate in events that

are, essentially, DM inspired adventures. I`ve never really been able to

accept that myself. It seems to me that characters have a tendency to at

least occasionally seek out challenges or the kinds of things that would

grant them XP awards in D&D terms, and as long as there are people about

who have also capped out the "average" awards one could always find others

in a similar predicament and duke it out with them (and thus gain XP for a

more appropriately CR`d encounter.) But as a rationalization goes I guess

it`s as good as the next one.



Gary