Rangers As Arcane Spellcasters

[Yair]

I am sure it has been discussed, but I wasn't here to hear it. So if you can point me in the right direction, I'll appreciate it.
I am thinking of making rangers arcane casters, to emphasise their connection with nature (read: source). Have the ramifications of this and the way to do this been discussed by the community?

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Yair" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:10 PM





> I am sure it has been discussed, but I wasn&#39;t here to hear it.

> So if you can point me in the right direction, I&#39;ll appreciate it.

> I am thinking of making rangers arcane casters, to emphasise their

> connection with nature (read: source). Have the ramifications of this

> and the way to do this been discussed by the community?



I don`t associate sorces with arcane magic. I allow druids to make use of

sources as much as wizards. Since rangers would presumably draw on the same

magical energies as druids, I would have both use sources or not.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Raesene Andu]

Rangers using arcane magic instead of divine is mentioned (in a roundabout way) in the BRCS. There has also been some discussion on changing druids to arcane spellcasters as well or even introducing an elven school of magic.

This was the version of the elven school discussed by the developers. (Note: This wasn&#39;t really properly discussed, just introduced as an idea and left at that for now, but if you&#39;d like to see something like this then let us know.)

Elven racial abilities:
Variant: Elven nature magic familiarity - Due to their strong ties to the land of Cerilia elves add the following spells to any arcane spellcaster list they may have at the equivalent spell level listed. Elves follow the rules for learning and casting these spells for the spellcasting class that they apply. These spells would be cast as arcane spells.

0-Level
Create Water

1st-Level
Calm Animals -
Charm Animal -
Detect Snares and Pits -
Entangle -
Goodberry -
Hide from Animals -
Longstrider – I’d add it even though it doesn’t really have a nature theme, it does fit in with the elven descriptions
Magic Fang -
Magic Stone -
Pass without Trace -
Shillelagh -

2nd-Level
Animal Messenger -
Barkskin -
Hold Animal -
Reduce Animal -
Soften Earth and Stone -
Tree Shape -
Warp Wood -
Wood Shape -

3rd-Level
Diminish Plants -
Dominate Animal -
Magic Fang, Greater -
Meld into Stone -
Plant Growth -
Quench -
Snare -
Spike Growth –
Wind Walk -

4th-Level
Air Walk
Antiplant Shell -
Command Plants -
Giant Vermin -
Spike Stones -

5th-Level
Awaken -
Commune with Nature -
Control Winds -
Tree Stride -
Wall of Thorns -

6th-Level
Ironwood -
Liveoak -
Repel Wood
Spellstaff -
Stone Tell -
Transport via Plants -

7th-Level
Animate Plants -
Changestaff -
Transmute Metal to Wood -
Wind Walk -

8th-Level
Animal Shapes -
Control Plants -
Repel Metal or Stone -

9th-Level
Shambler -

[Yair]

Not a bad idea, and now that I read the thread I see the discussion is comprehensive. Personally, I think any true mage should have a connection to the land, not just elves so I&#39;ll probably simply add those spells to the sor/wiz spell list. But I&#39;ll have to mull it over; its a good idea.

kgauck: what do you see source as, then? I ain&#39;t looking at the books, but the impression I got was that of source, being wild nature, competing with civilization, being domain level.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Yair" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 4:18 PM





> kgauck: what do see source as, then? I ain`t looking at the books,

> but the impression I got was that of source, being wild nature,

> competing with civilization, being domain level.



The druids, especially the Emerald Spire are likewise hostile to

civilization and the evils it brings (consumption of substantial natural

resources). Even the less radical druids are ambivilant towards higher

province levels. It certainly seems more natural the druidical power should

be higher in the wild areas than in the civilized areas, no?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Yair]

Indeed.
It&#39;s just that I associate nature/source with true arcane magic, so I am loath to let druids, or divine magic, be better at controlling it. But I see that you don&#39;t.

Thanks.

[Osprey]

I don&#39;t think druids are better or worse at controlling sources in Kenneth&#39;s description. They are simply capable of competing at the same level. For comparison, the current BRCS has druids capable of tapping unclaimed sources for realm spells.

My own preference is on the same page with Ken&#39;s: I allow druids full access to sources, putting them in direct competition with mages. Their methods are definitely different (harmony vs. control respectively), but the results are similar. To that end, the mechanic I use is that wizards use Kn: Arcana for their key skill in creating/ruling/contesting sources, while druids use Kn: Nature. Also, I don&#39;t let druids use ley lines, as that is overt manipulation of mebhaighal. Check out the "Source Regents and Arcane Courts" thread for more details.

That being said, I consider rangers to use a similar "harmonistic" approach to their magic, but on a lesser path, similar to bards/magicians vs. true mages. Hence, no realm magic for rangers.

-Osprey

[irdeggman]

Honestly I think that I&#39;d rather have a no spell casting ranger (like Monte Cook&#39;s variant one) but this generally causes too many problems with using the "core rules" and most people tend to prefer the core rules version better.

In Birthright a non-spell casting ranger would eliminate the deity inspired aspect of the divine spells in Birthright and reduce the inherent conflict with the basic Birthright premise that all druids gain their spells from Erik (i.e., not nature itself). Since arcane sources generally come under the aspect of Rournil and not Erik this tends to cause an issue at least in the way I see things.

[Eosin the Red]

I use the Woodsman from Wheel of Time for human rangers but let the elven Rangers play core if they like...The magic then comes from their "elvenness" and I don`t have to address it.



Randy~Eosin

>

> From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Date: 2003/10/10 Fri PM 07:44:02 EDT

> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

> Subject: Re: Rangers As Arcane Spellcasters [36#1999]

>

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1999

>

> irdeggman wrote:

> Honestly I think that I`d rather have a no spell casting ranger (like Monte Cook`s variant one) but this generally causes too many problems with using the "core rules" and most people tend to prefer the core rules version better.

>

> In Birthright a non-spell casting ranger would eliminate the deity inspired aspect of the divine spells in Birthright and reduce the inherent conflict with the basic Birthright premise that all druids gain their spells from Erik (i.e., not nature itself).

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Osprey]

I created a variant ranger class, the Huntsman, which I thought would be neat for Rjurik and Vos rangers. The Huntsman ditches the spells, and instead gains power from devotion to a totem animal. At first this grants increased empathy with the totem animal type. Eventually, the ranger can Wild Shape into his totem animal&#39;s form. At higher levels, he can take larger and more powerful forms (superior, dire, then giant forms). He still gains all of the other ranger abilities, but trades the spells for shapeshifting.

If anyone&#39;s interested in seeing a writeup, I&#39;d be happy to post it.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:44 PM





> In Birthright a non-spell casting ranger would eliminate the deity

> inspired aspect of the divine spells in Birthright and reduce the

> inherent conflict with the basic Birthright premise that all druids

> gain their spells from Erik (i.e., not nature itself).



I have a non-spellcasting "hunter" in my campaign. He represents someone

who is simply skilled at outdoor living. I have also retained the old

spellcasting ranger as the paladin of Erik, but such a class is rare (as

paladins typically are) and is required to act like a druid (as I require

all paladins to conduct themselves as clerics).



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Airgedok]

I think part of the problem is that the standard magic system has been as follows, for 2e AD&D and 3x Editions.

The magic is based on three groups 2 are a subset of divine in the standard rules.
Arcane magic - wizardry
divine magic which was a compnent of power channeled from teh gods and magic from nature

Birthright magic is broken up in only 2 groups of magic

Nature magic = arcane
and divine magic = magic from the gods

The grey area is when you try to place the two nature magic users from the standard magic system the ranger and the druid into the birthright magic system.

Druids are clerics of teh nature god. But rangers are really arcane magic users when you look at the sources of magic in teh birthright setting.

Arcane magic users in cerilian as nature spell casters but unfortunetly this is in direct opposition to teh standard rule set. So things like if magic is nature based for divine as in directly channelled from the gods should the rules and spells be changed to reflect this? Should Rangers have to worry about armour? Should Wizards have to worry about armour? Is there actually any arcane magic in the birthright system? Or rather Wizards and bards are actually a subgroup of divine spell casters under the standard rule set since they gaine their magic from nature which is part of teh divine magic subset and are not arcane magic users.

I think that its easier to view them as nature spell caster and change their arcane spell failure rules to that of when wearing organic armour they have no spell failure but they incure full spell failure for inorganic armour. So any arcane spell caster in cerilian could wear cloth,leather, studded leather and hide with no worry of arcane spell failure but has to worry about spellfailure with metal amrours. So armour treaded with iron wood would be considered to be organic as well. This would place rangers in the arcane spell user catagory and under the above rules and Druids fall under dive magic users but because they worship the nature god they have access to nature like spells. To simulate teh arcane or rather naure powered spells that bards and wizards/sorcerers have you would need to add nature spells to teh classic arcanes spell users and perhaps teh elves could get elf specific spells that other non evles cant use much like nonbloodeds cant be wizards that conection goes slightly further to show that elves have an even greater conection to nature.

If this is adopted then some non traditional druid spells should be given to druids to show that they are given their power from not nature but divine connection. Traditional clerical spells could and should be given to druids to show their conection to diven power not nature&#39;s power. Because even though druids in the standard rules are nature spell casters its clear that they are not in cerilia. Cerilian druids only have their conection to nature because teh worship the nature diety and therefor it begs teh question if they should be able to use source relms. The may be intune with nature THROUGH their nature diety but nature itself doesnt power their abilities or their spells like the classic druid. And as such perhaps their armour restrictions should be lifted as well.

What the end result is you get bards,wizard and sorcerers that behave and have powers closer to the druid and druids that behave and have powers closer to the cleric. Which I belive is in the spirit to the magic system that was created for birthright. Sure rangers are now arcane spell users but the spirit of teh natured power ranger isnt effected. But teh traditional druid is changed consierably but that coinsides with the idea that they are a order of clerics under a diety and not an indepentant order of nature worshipers/guardians not under divine direction. The radical change of the tradition arcane spell casters should coinside with changes to the nature of thier spells and teh nature of their spells being effected by armour, or at least it should be considered.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Airgedok" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:22 AM





> Nature magic = arcane



I don`t buy this portion of the premice any more than I would buy the notion

that arcane magic is natural magic in any other campaign. It is by its very

exclsuivity supernatural. Nature as a force has nothing to do with magic as

a force. Both happen to be coincident in the land, which is also the

resevoir for other forces as well.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

Osprey, I would be glad to take a peek at your work&#33; ;)

Generally, I have to agree with your main ideas as well: druids are able to tap on the power of nature, but not ley lines, yet rangers cannot. B)

[Osprey]

Druids are clerics of teh nature god. But rangers are really arcane magic users when you look at the sources of magic in teh birthright setting.

In original AD&D, rangers cast low-level magic-user spells...and thus were arcane casters.

As for the Huntsman, he is awaiting a 3.5 conversion, so it might be a little while...but he&#39;ll be posted at some point. :)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 12 2003, 04:58 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Airgedok" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:22 AM





> Nature magic = arcane



I don`t buy this portion of the premice any more than I would buy the notion

that arcane magic is natural magic in any other campaign. It is by its very

exclsuivity supernatural. Nature as a force has nothing to do with magic as

a force. Both happen to be coincident in the land, which is also the

resevoir for other forces as well.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com













I have agree with Kenneth on this one. I think there is confusion between nature and arcane magic. Realm arcane magic requires a pretty prestine natural surrounding, but this doesn&#39;t necessarily create a correlary between the two.

IMO the mechanics reason for the connection between the state of the land and the realm arcane spells is that in general, the arcane realm spells affect the land.

The divine ones can be viewed as having more of an effect on the populace, for example bless land could be interpreted as the people now work harder to yield greater benefits.

[Ksaturn]

I would say that Divine Magic comes from the people and is channelled by Deities (and thier blood). Arcane Magic is the power of the earth. Nature as a concept is held differently... i.e. the spell lists & abilities of the druid/ranger are based more on living things than the raw power of the elements, Though they do touch that. Rouronil Clerics have powers similair to magicians, much as Erik Druids have similair powers to clerics. Thier magic seems to be drawn more from the plants and aniamls and such rather than the &#39;land&#39;