New Costs For Magic Item Creation

[The Jew]

In the description of the Birthright world in both 2e and 3e, it is supposed to be a low magic item world. Their are few magic items available and those that exist have a value above 4,000 gp. Yet their is no game mechanic given to account for the lack of magic items. The BRCS does give a reason, that mages believe power should be earned, not given, so they are loath to create a plethora of magic items. This reasoning rings hollow to me, since Birthright is a world where the majority of power is not earned, but is a right that inviduals are born to. It might make sense that wizards would be wary about selling weapons to the unblooded, but certainly not to those who have the divine escence within their blood. Here are a few suggestions for game mechanics which would account for the scarcity of magic items.

1. In addition to the normal costs of producing magic items, they all require an extra amount of material and production costs. For arguments sake this could be 1,000 gp worth. A ring an expensive jewel, an armour might have gold and silver gilding, a wand with many small emeralds which turn to ash after each charge is used. This would both make magic items somewhat rarer and inexpensive magic items significantly rarer.

2. an additional base xp cost.

3. Instead or requiring items to be merely of masterwork quality, require them to be superior masterwork. This would of course require purchasing the item from a dwarf.

4. require that the item be crafted by the mage which is going to enchant it. This would of course require a mage to spend more time creating the item, and probably to invest skill point into the particular craft skill. This side also has the side effect of encouraging mages to create multiple similar items which is also against the theme of the game.

5. require a certain amount of regency to be spent in creating the item. This would of course preclude the non-blooded and those who are blooded but do not have any holdings from creating magic items.

[Mourn]

To make magic items more prevalent in the Forgotten Realms, the Red Wizards of Thay sell most minor magic items with a 10% discount.

Maybe in Birthright, everything should have a 10% price increase.

[Raesene Andu]

I would be wary of making it too hard to create magical items, however some of your suggestions have merit. The BRCS (pg. 152) also has something to say about this topic, although no real rules for changing the cost of creating items.

Increasing the base cost and time taken to create magical items are probably the easiest ways of dealing with magical items. However, increasing the cost also increases the time, so that deals with both at the same time. And as regent mages are fairly poor most of the time anyway, this means they won't be able to create many magical items.

For example: a ring of protection +1 normally takes two days to create + 1 GB in materials. Assuming a cost of x4 for BR, then it will now take 8 days (1 week) and cost 4 GB, which is a fair amount for a wizard. It also cost 1/25 is base price in xp or 320 xp in this case.

The cost x4 rules is the one I'll be using in my pbem anyway.

[irdeggman]

Yes, the "low magic" variant proposed increasing the cost of magic items by 30% (which was the recommended cost increase in 2nd ed by the way). This is the simpliest way to do it, since increasing the base cost increases the time and the exp cost involved in crating magic items (as Ian pointed out).

The DMG allows the DM to impart "special" conditions such as requisite materials etc. IMO it is best to leave that as is and allow, but not in any way restrict, the DM to input these kind of increases.

[Osprey]

4. require that the item be crafted by the mage which is going to enchant it. This would of course require a mage to spend more time creating the item, and probably to invest skill point into the particular craft skill. This side also has the side effect of encouraging mages to create multiple similar items which is also against the theme of the game.

I like this idea - it enhances the idea of having dedicated articifers be the main creators of magic items.


5. require a certain amount of regency to be spent in creating the item. This would of course preclude the non-blooded and those who are blooded but do not have any holdings from creating magic items.

This, too, is an interesting way to explain the rarity of artifacts. It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).

The other good thing about having blooded scions be the only ones capable of magic item creation is that it limits both clerics and mages. What seems to be frequently forgotten is that clerics can also create magic items as easily as mages, and in Cerilia they are far more numerous than true mages.

-Osprey

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 11 2003, 04:35 AM
It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).


I would argue against replacing the xp cost with an rp cost, unless a DM is sure that RP will be tight within their campaign. Several posts have described games in which players are flush with RP and have few things to spend it on. In such cases magic items would become easier to create for players. Adding a RP cost might be more appropriate. Even a token cost of 1 RP per item would serve to limit creation to blooded regents.

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

> Osprey wrote:

>
4. require that the item be crafted by the mage which is going to enchant it. This would of course require a mage to spend more time creating the item, and probably to invest skill point into the particular craft skill. This side also has the side effect of encouraging mages to create multiple similar items which is also against the theme of the game.

>

> I like this idea - it enhances the idea of having dedicated articifers be the main creators of magic items.

>
5. require a certain amount of regency to be spent in creating the item. This would of course preclude the non-blooded and those who are blooded but do not have any holdings from creating magic items.

>

> This, too, is an interesting way to explain the rarity of artifacts. It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).

>

> The other good thing about having blooded scions be the only ones capable of magic item creation is that it limits both clerics and mages. What seems to be frequently forgotten is that clerics can also create magic items as easily as mages, and in Cerilia they are far more numerous than true mages.

> -Osprey

>

>

And as the 2E limitation of specialty priests who were severely limited

by knowing not all spells and thus could not create all magic items

themselves alone has been eliminated with the 3E "generic cleric+2

domains" adding more restrictions to clerics creating magic items is good.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 10 2003, 10:35 PM


This, too, is an interesting way to explain the rarity of artifacts. It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).

The other good thing about having blooded scions be the only ones capable of magic item creation is that it limits both clerics and mages. What seems to be frequently forgotten is that clerics can also create magic items as easily as mages, and in Cerilia they are far more numerous than true mages.

-Osprey [/quote]
Actually the variant was 1 point of bloodline score to 1000 xp.

I, personally, am very much against using RP to magic item creation. My reasoning on this is that it is supposed to "cost" the creator something that he had gained due to risk, (i.e., exp). RP is like gaining interest, the regent doesn't really have to risk anything in order to gain it. Bloodline score on the ohter hand is something that is very significant and dear to al scions.

[Osprey]

Actually the variant was 1 point of bloodline score to 1000 xp.

I, personally, am very much against using RP to magic item creation. My reasoning on this is that it is supposed to "cost" the creator something that he had gained due to risk, (i.e., exp). RP is like gaining interest, the regent doesn't really have to risk anything in order to gain it. Bloodline score on the ohter hand is something that is very significant and dear to al scions.

Oops, my mistake. I was discussing the 10:1 cost a a variant, and got it mixed up with the bloodline point:xp variant.

Ironically, 1:1000 is actually cheaper for weaker scions (by current BRCS rules, 100 RP = cost to raise to 25 bloodline score). But I like your point that losing permanent bloodline score seems like more of a sacrifice.

While we're on it, there's some need for clarification. On p. 152 of the BRCS it says:

The exchange rate is 1000 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed. This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.

Once per item, yet multiple bloodline points may be spent? There seems to be a contradiction here. Magical item creation is a continuous process, so why would anyone do it more than once?

-Osprey

[The Jew]

The BRCS gives a variant for RP use in the creation of magic item in Chapter 3 on page 57. The RP:xp ratio is 1:10. It also takes a month long ritual in addition to the normal item creation time.

[Osprey]

Hey, waddya' know, I'm not crazy after all! :blink: Thanks...

[Airgedok]

Doesnt the current rule set create a magic poor enviorment? In older versions of D&D you gained XP for creating a magic item and the only control was time and resources. HOWEVER 3x D&D has created the other far greater limiting factor and that is XP. It now cost you Xp to make weapons. It is akin to sacrificing part of your life force to make the magic item. I can see many a mage being very reluctant to give up their "life force" to make a magic item just to sell or just for the sake of a whim. As a player who plays wizards and only wizards I have been very very very relucant to build magic items for my party because the cost is xp, or rather thats the cost the is the limiting factor. When you have to give up your life force you are not likely to make many items.

A wizard is more powerful if it never makes a magic item (including scrolls) then if it does make magic items and sells them. There are many magic items that would make a wizard more powerful with them then without these would therefore be the more likely items created than teh ones that the creating class could not use. Ie a magic sword is likely more rare than a magic staff. A wizard who desire to increase in power and most wizards especially players suffer from hubris and a loath to give up their own personal power and thats what XP cost do you give up personal power to make an object of power. If you make lots of items you could be two or even three levels behind your party members and thats 1 or two spell levels. the differance from being able to cast 5th level spells at 10th level or 7th level spells at 13th level. Thats a huge gap in spell power that characters would be loath to give up just to create magic items for their party members (their closest friends). This also means that they have to give up more personal power in the form of feats. Every item creation feat is a metamagic feat or other feat a spell caster gives up. It is therefore a reasonable premiss that spellcasters both divine and arcane would NOT be likely to create magic items.

This wouldnot elinimate item creation but it does explain while there is a limited supply of magic items and not "special" reason for it. It is more nessesary to create a "special" rule to explain high magic worlds than low magic worlds given the current xp cost in item creation with the 3x edition rules.

This isnt a critism of the rules just an analysis of what xp item creation cost means. And that a rule to explain limited items isnt really required. RP used to create magic items is a rule that would create a world with more magic items because RP are a renuable resourse while xp is not. So a season's worth of RP spent on a item are renewed in one regant turn. That is a very very cheap cost compared to 1/4 or 1/2 a level worth of XP since you cant regain those xp by waiting a single turn. You have to actually go and adventure to gain more points. The difference may seem trivial of surface glance but its a major difference in practice. If two regeants created magic items and one used XP and another RP you would find the regant that spent RP in a far stronger position all things being equal.

Just wanted to present a view point that shows that there is no reason to try to explain why items are rare.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

> irdeggman wrote:

>


> This, too, is an interesting way to explain the rarity of artifacts. It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).

> The other good thing about having blooded scions be the only ones capable of magic item creation is that it limits both clerics and mages. What seems to be frequently forgotten is that clerics can also create magic items as easily as mages, and in Cerilia they are far more numerous than true mages.

> -Osprey [/QUOTE]

> Actually the variant was 1 point of bloodline score to 1000 xp.

> I, personally, am very much against using RP to magic item creation. My reasoning on this is

>that it is supposed to "cost" the creator something that he had gained due to risk,

>(i.e., exp). RP is like gaining interest, the regent doesn`t really have to risk anything in order

> to gain it. Bloodline score on the ohter hand is something that is

> very significant and dear to al scions.



As far as I remember RP could be earned just like XP for heroic deeds.

The introduction in "King of the Giantdowns" assumes this as PC´s would

adventure there and eventually make a bid for the crown.



And from a logical point of view what has been said in an earlier thread

if failure in certain actions leads to a minor/major/great loss of RP

then it should lead to a gain in RP when said action turn out successfull.



RP earned in this manner would just be like XP and not only like an

effortless "interest" on bloodline score.



If however regents in your campaign earn enough RP that after having

dealt with the problems of all rulers (evil neighbours, expanding their

own holdings...) and saving some RP to at some time actually increase

their bloodline, they STILL have more than enough RP that spending some

on magic item is no loss at all, then perhaps are they facing not enough

challenges to their rule?

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

>> Airgedok wrote:

> Doesnt the current rule set create a magic poor enviorment? In older versions of D&D you

> gained XP for creating a magic item and the only control was time and

resources.



No, for permanent magic items the wizard had to sacrifice 1 point of

Constitution (for casting the 2E "permanency" spell). A pretty hefty

requirement for non-evil wizards (the evil ones would just magic jar a

victim and then cast the permanency) ;-)



> HOWEVER 3x D&D has created the other far greater limiting factor

and that is XP. It now

> cost you Xp to make weapons. It is akin to sacrificing part of your

life force to make the

>magic item. I can see many a mage being very reluctant to give up

their "life force"

> to make a magic item just to sell or just for the sake of a whim.



The *desired* result is that there are less weapons and that those that

are made are more expensive. Naturally any wizard will be reluctant to

give up part of his next level and more personal power for creating a

long sword +1 for his fighter party member if not paid a hefty amount of

gold.



>As a player who plays wizards and only wizards I have been very very very relucant to build

> magic items for my party because the cost is xp, or rather thats the

cost the is the limiting

> factor. When you have to

>give up your life force you are not likely to make many items.



Except when you

a) are offered HUGE amounts of gold that make you forget the loss -

mmmh: The Baron of Ghoere offers 10 GB and the title of Viscount to the

wizard who creates a magical sword for his son and heir?

b) you NEED the money, else you could not buy the ingredients for some

of your spells or you would lack the money for your next research object

- sorry fellow partymembers I just can´t cast [insert spell with

expensive component] because I lacked the gold to buy ingredients ;-)



bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Michael you do have a point about earning RP due to actions, but this is really insubtantial compared to what is being earned by just having a holding. The typical RP awards are usually 1 or 2 RP (up or down) while the regent usually earns close to his max blood score (2nd ed version) due to various holdings in a season. That was what Iwas referring to when I said I preferred the exchange being blood score for exp instead of RP for exp. Also blood score for exp would be much more easily portable to those who don't run a domain based game.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by The Jew@Oct 11 2003, 12:51 PM
The BRCS gives a variant for RP use in the creation of magic item in Chapter 3 on page 57. The RP:xp ratio is 1:10. It also takes a month long ritual in addition to the normal item creation time.
Yup you are correct it is right there in Chap 3. It shouldn't have been and was supposed to have been removed before putting out the BRCS for playtesting, since all of the magic item creation info was supposed to be relegated to Chap 8.

Use the Chap 8 info instead.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 11 2003, 09:22 AM

While we're on it, there's some need for clarification. On p. 152 of the BRCS it says:

The exchange rate is 1000 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed.* This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.

Once per item, yet multiple bloodline points may be spent? There seems to be a contradiction here. Magical item creation is a continuous process, so why would anyone do it more than once?

-Osprey
Actually a spellcaster can increase the + to an item or add other properties by adding to it after it was originally created, hence there really isn't an inconsistancy in the BRCS.


This specifically applies to weapons and armors.

[void]

I like the idea that creating magic items takes 1rp in addition to the regular costs. Since there are only a handful of true wizards, this would explain the rarity of magic items from the arcane point of view, but Anuire is lousy with blooded clerics, so I don't see why there isnt actually a plethora of magic items in Birthright. Since there are lots of militant religions, you'd think the clerics would be pumping them out to give their side the advantage.

[The Jew]

from airgedok
>If you make lots of items you could be two or even three levels behind your >party members and thats 1 or two spell levels. the differance from being able >to cast 5th level spells at 10th level or 7th level spells at 13th level.

I think you are taking a little to extreme a view of magic item creation. To begin with, the experience lost from from magic item creation to be 10th rather than 13th level would be 33,000. That is enough to make 825,000 gp worth of items. By the book, a 13th level character has 110,000 gp worth of equipment. I think that level of creation would be rare, but might actually be worth it if a magic user wanted to try. A more realistic example would be a 13th level magic user spending 6,000 experience to create 150,000 gp worth of items. They might sell off 50,000 of it to help cover the cost of creation, which explains the number of swords and armour, along with the fact that clerics fight with swords and armour and can of course create them. To put it into perspective lets see what a wizard could make with that remaining 100,000 gp:

robe of protection +2
amulet of natural armour +2
cloak of resistance +3
+4 to intelligence
+2 constitution
+2 dexterity
+10 administrate
+5 know (arcana)
+5 spellcraft
+5 concentration
+10 warcraft
bag of holding II
circlet of persuasion
boots of speed

This is by 3.5e prices and only requires the wonderous item feat. I personally think it would be well worth it and lead to magic items being more common.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> irdeggman wrote:

> Michael you do have a point about earning RP due to actions, but this is really insubtantial

compared to what is being earned by just having a holding. The typical

RP awards are usually 1

or 2 RP (up or down) while the regent usually earns close to his max

blood score (2nd ed

version) due to various holdings in a season. That was what Iwas

referring to when I said I

preferred the exchange being blood score for exp instead of RP for exp.

Also blood score for exp

would be much more easily portable to those who don`t run a domain

based game.



As you mention that:

Where are those people that whine constantly about that blooded scions

need to be balanced against unblooded adventurers, because "many people"

want to play an unblooded adventurer in the Birthright setting? Hey,

here is a suggestion that banishes you from creating magic items ;-)



Perhaps another +1 ECL to blooded scions because unblooded can´t create

magic items?



But about RP: Again you can´t only show how much RP one player earns -

the higher his RP income, the higher his bloodline, the higher the

challenges his rule will/ought to face - in the end RP after facing that

challenges and saving some for enhancing bloodline should always be

scarce and not readily available.

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

void schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> void wrote:

> I like the idea that creating magic items takes 1rp in addition to the regular costs. Since

there are only a handful of true wizards, this would explain the

rarity of magic items from the

arcane point of view, but Anuire is lousy with blooded clerics, so I

don`t see why there isnt

actually a plethora of magic items in Birthright. Since there are

lots of militant religions,

you`d think the clerics would be pumping them out to give their side

the advantage.



That was partly prevented due to the limitations of 2E priests and their

spheres of no/minor/major access.



With the generic 3E Clerics (+2 domains) where all Clerics know all

"Clr" spells it is only limited by having to know the approbiate feats.

Clerics have less feats than wizards, so that is a little limitation.

But limiting knowledge of spells would be better in my opinion.

Hey - why not allow only creation of magic items by clerics that know

the approbiate spell from their DOMAIN spell list? ;-)

bye

Michael

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by The Jew@Oct 12 2003, 06:38 PM
from airgedok
>If you make lots of items you could be two or even three levels behind your >party members and thats 1 or two spell levels. the differance from being able >to cast 5th level spells at 10th level or 7th level spells at 13th level.

I think you are taking a little to extreme a view of magic item creation. To begin with, the experience lost from from magic item creation to be 10th rather than 13th level would be 33,000. That is enough to make 825,000 gp worth of items. By the book, a 13th level character has 110,000 gp worth of equipment. I think that level of creation would be rare, but might actually be worth it if a magic user wanted to try. A more realistic example would be a 13th level magic user spending 6,000 experience to create 150,000 gp worth of items. They might sell off 50,000 of it to help cover the cost of creation, which explains the number of swords and armour, along with the fact that clerics fight with swords and armour and can of course create them. To put it into perspective lets see what a wizard could make with that remaining 100,000 gp:

robe of protection +2
amulet of natural armour +2
cloak of resistance +3
+4 to intelligence
+2 constitution
+2 dexterity
+10 administrate
+5 know (arcana)
+5 spellcraft
+5 concentration
+10 warcraft
bag of holding II
circlet of persuasion
boots of speed

This is by 3.5e prices and only requires the wonderous item feat. I personally think it would be well worth it and lead to magic items being more common.
i was trying to show that it would be hugely expensive to outfit a party. Not an individual. I did try to point out that specific items that wizard could benifit would be more common simple because the idea of giving up personal power for things a wizard could is far easier to "swallow" than giving up your personal power to equip your party or someother guy.

I have found that party members can be extremely greedy for magic items and that they will ask and argue till they are blue in the face for just how much it is worth it to supply them with their "needed" items.

I find that teh current system does very much create a limited magic enviorment. It doesnt eliminate magic item creation but it does explain why not every Wizard/cleric isnt outfitting their party with uber items.

I have yet to run a game or been in a game where item creation happened other then scrolls and even then it was rare. Simply because the 2 groups that I have delt with in the past few years didnt want to pay the xp costs. i could be the minority but I still find xp cost to be a natural limiting factor.

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Oct 12 2003, 07:29 PM
void schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...36&t=2006<br (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006<br) />
>

> void wrote:

> I like the idea that creating magic items takes 1rp in addition to the regular costs. Since

there are only a handful of true wizards, this would explain the

rarity of magic items from the

arcane point of view, but Anuire is lousy with blooded clerics, so I

don`t see why there isnt

actually a plethora of magic items in Birthright. Since there are

lots of militant religions,

you`d think the clerics would be pumping them out to give their side

the advantage.



That was partly prevented due to the limitations of 2E priests and their

spheres of no/minor/major access.



With the generic 3E Clerics (+2 domains) where all Clerics know all

"Clr" spells it is only limited by having to know the approbiate feats.

Clerics have less feats than wizards, so that is a little limitation.

But limiting knowledge of spells would be better in my opinion.

Hey - why not allow only creation of magic items by clerics that know

the approbiate spell from their DOMAIN spell list? ;-)

bye

Michael













Are all the spell prereqs for clerics covered by the domain spell lists?

[Osprey]

Hey - why not allow only creation of magic items by clerics that know
the approbiate spell from their DOMAIN spell list? ;-)
bye
Michael


Magical weapons and armor with enhancement bonuses don&#39;t require any spells as prerequisites, just levels (bonusx3 min.).

[Green Knight]

I haven`t really followed this thread, but hey I`m a person too!



Having experimented a bit with various house rules regarding magic item creation in BR, I have come up with several ideas:



- If you want to limit magic item creation, require BOTH XP and RP to be spent. There have been substitution ideas, but this one is new I think. It drastically cuts down on the number of spellcasters who can make items, but doesn`t free them from XP constraintes.



- You could ease this restriction by allowing some "lesser magic" or some such to be created w/o RO, but personally I`d say no to that too.



Cheers

Bjørn



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by The Green Knight@Oct 13 2003, 11:20 AM
I haven`t really followed this thread, but hey I`m a person too&#33;



Having experimented a bit with various house rules regarding magic item creation in BR, I have come up with several ideas:



- If you want to limit magic item creation, require BOTH XP and RP to be spent. There have been substitution ideas, but this one is new I think. It drastically cuts down on the number of spellcasters who can make items, but doesn`t free them from XP constraintes.



- You could ease this restriction by allowing some "lesser magic" or some such to be created w/o RO, but personally I`d say no to that too.



Cheers

Bjørn



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no<br />
-------------------------------------------------













So by requiring RP to be spent, a magician can not create a scroll?

[Osprey]

Aye, irdeggman&#39;s point is well taken. I think scrolls and potions, as expendable, single-use items, should qualify as "minor" magic items, and be creatable by any spellcaster with the proper item creation feats.

The second option would be to label minor items as any items under a certain gp value. That value might be 1000, 5000, or even 10,000 gp, depending on the level of minor magic items you want in your campaign world. At 10,000 gp value, magicians and non-blooded clerics (+bards, pailidins, and rangers, concievably, though it&#39;s unlikely) could craft some wands (L1-2 spells only), a few minor rings, and the lower tier (minor, lesser medium) wondrous items, weapons of up to +2 enhancement, and armor of up to +3 enhancement. Rods, staves, and higher levels of the above items would be limited to scion articifers only.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:54 AM





> So by requiring RP to be spent, a magician can not create a scroll



Do those looking to slow down magic item creation also want to include

one-shot spell storage devices? Or, are we talking about permenent or

multi-shot only?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 14 2003, 10:11 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:54 AM





> So by requiring RP to be spent, a magician can not create a scroll



Do those looking to slow down magic item creation also want to include

one-shot spell storage devices? Or, are we talking about permenent or

multi-shot only?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com


Thats a good point. Are scrolls considered magic items by most people when the talk about magic items. While they maybe technicly magic items do people view them as such? I know as a player i view scrolls a seperate from magic items sort of their own special catagory. The same with potions but to most other people?

Are potions and scolls more rare in a magicly poor world?

I do like in princible the added cost of regency as well as gold and XP.

[Ariadne]

IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as "General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation even more expensive is not the right way...

[Green Knight]

Better spent on metamagic? Would I rather have a feat that allows me to

enhance my spells at great cost in increased spell level, or a feat that

give me "unlimited" access to key spells?



Craft Wand is almost too good to be true. What Wizard can do without -

I`d like to have access to 50 fireballs and 50 dispel magic? And what

about Craft Wondrous Item? It gives access to an infinite variety of

items...



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Ariadne

Sent: 15. oktober 2003 13:44

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: New Costs For Magic Item Creation [36#2006]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006



Ariadne wrote:

IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you

include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as

"General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation

even more expensive is not the right way...







************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Oct 15 2003, 06:43 AM
IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as "General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation even more expensive is not the right way...
But this is a comment on the core rules itself and not really a Birthright specific one. That is, as I see it you feel that the 3/3.5 rules are too harsh on wizards. What isn&#39;t addresed is should Birthright have a lower occurrence of magic items than the standard campaign. That is the question that should be addressed and not what is wrong with the core rules, it is a matter of relativeness - how is the magic item occurrence in Birthright in relation to a standard core rules campaign (and not a high magic one like Forgotten Realms).

[Osprey]

But this is a comment on the core rules itself and not really a Birthright specific one. That is, as I see it you feel that the 3/3.5 rules are too harsh on wizards. What isn&#39;t addresed is should Birthright have a lower occurrence of magic items than the standard campaign. That is the question that should be addressed and not what is wrong with the core rules, it is a matter of relativeness - how is the magic item occurrence in Birthright in relation to a standard core rules campaign (and not a high magic one like Forgotten Realms).
.

This is why increased item costs, RP for xp, RP required, etc., etc., should all remain optional variant rules rather than core BR rules. All of these variants would have pretty dramatic effects on the campaign setting, and I believe it should remain in the hands of the individual DM to decide just what sort of magical level he/she wants in the campaign.

-Osprey

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> Airgedok wrote:

>
----- Original Message -----<>

> From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET><>

> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:54 AM<>

> <>

> <>

> > So by requiring RP to be spent, a magician can not create a scroll<>

> <>

> Do those looking to slow down magic item creation also want to include<>

> one-shot spell storage devices? Or, are we talking about permenent or<>

> multi-shot only?<>

> <>

> Kenneth Gauck<>

> kgauck@mchsi.com<>

>

> Thats a good point. Are scrolls considered magic items by most people when the talk about magic items. While they maybe technicly magic items do people view them as such? I know as a player i view scrolls a seperate from magic items sort of their own special catagory. The same with potions but to most other people?

>

> Are potions and scolls more rare in a magicly poor world?



In my opinion one-shot magical items should be available in same number

as in D&D core.



Wizards are not the only capable of creating magical items, BR Priests

face no more restrictions than 3E core priests, Magicians should IMO

certainly be able to create items of their own area of expertice

(Crystal Balls for example). And for wide spread access to low-power

items aren´t there some NPC Adepts living in a hut just outside every

village? ;-)



Even the 2E Book of Regency allowed the option to have a chance to

collect magical items as potions or scrolls in lieu of taxes

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Oct 15 2003, 06:43 AM
IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as "General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation even more expensive is not the right way...
I just did a little work on putting into a table the costs to create magic items (specifically weapons) and it is surprisingly cheap using the DMG as a basis. A wizard (for example, although the rules aply to any spellcaster) could make a +2 long sword for the following:

Market Price (base cost) equals 8,315 gp {8,000 for +2 and 315 for masterwork item cost}. The creator pays 1/2 of this price in material costs (4,157 gp) and 1/25th of the base cost in exp (332 xp) and takes 8 days {1 day for every 1,000 gp of it&#39;s magical features}. It requires a 6th caster in order to create it also (caster level = 3 times the enhancement bonus). Since it requires a 6th level caster to creat the item the range of exp that the character has is 15,333 to 20,999. 332 is a very small percentage of this total and the result is a permanent +2 magic item, pretty good trade off IMO.

To craft a wand of fireballs is likewise relatively inexpensive. Market price is 11,250 gp {Caster level (assume 5th level) times spell level (3rd level spell) times 750 gp}. The caster must be at least 5th level in order to craft a wand. The material cost is 5625 gp {one half the market price}, the exp cost is 450 {1/25 of the base price} and it takes 11 days to make {one day for every 1,000 gp in base price}. In exchange the caster gains a wand with 50 charges that each charge casts a fireball as if cast by a 5th level caster.

This is really worth while especially for surviveability, now that the wizard doesn&#39;t have to constantly memorize multiple fireball spells he/she is free to memorize other spells for more usefulness.

If time and money is an issue just creating a scroll is very usefull. Base price is 375 gp {spell level times caster level times 25 gp}, material costs of 187 gp {1/2 the base price}, exp cost of 15 xp {1/25 of base price} and takes 1 day to make {one day per 1,000 gp base price}. This yields a scroll with a fireball spell cast by a 5th level caster.

Item creation feats are extremely useful for spell casters, especially wizards.

[kari]

I say


to create a magic item one would need to spend his blodpoints.

Thows bloodpoints still count as his own, unless he dies. So when the magic item is ruind the blood returns. If the owner of the blood is dead, anyine can clame the blood. as when you kill a blooded one.


Rigth, anyone can have his magic item created for him, the creator dont have to use his own blood, any blood can be used.

The item will have a blend character of the Blood and the owner.


If one would like to create lesser magic item thed is not intelegent, one would need to find ways to supress the intelegence fo the item.

The solution begin not to use blod points in the creation of the item.

But thows secrits needed to be found, and the misterys to create cheep magic item can only be unlocked by the DM,

one would probebly need to rule a large empire to be able to gather the source needed. Have hordes of mages constructing and resacrsching the hidden powers. and Build several wonders specified for the purpuse of creating cheep magic items.

So the future will be flodde in cheep magic items, but not the present..

[ConjurerDragon]

kari schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> kari wrote:

> I say

> to create a magic item one would need to spend his blodpoints.

> Thows bloodpoints still count as his own, unless he dies.



What do you mean here? That a person with a bloodline of 60 puts 1 point

in a magical sword and still has a bloodline of now 59+1 for the purpose

of bloodline abilitys just not for RP collection?



> So when the magic item is ruind the

blood returns. If the owner of the blood is dead, anyine can clame

the blood. as when you kill

a blooded one.

> Rigth, anyone can have his magic item created for him, the creator dont have to use his own

blood, any blood can be used.



Bad idea. This creates the same dillemma as in 2E when Constitution had

to be spent for casting the Permanency spell. Evil item creators will

abuse others, good/neutral are limited by the limitation.



And it would make "collecting" low-power scions with minor bloodlines

useful - hey I (the Gorgon

or any other powerful being) gain nothing if I try to commit bloodtheft

on these people with a low bloodline - but I can use them to fuel my

magic item production...

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8 requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.

If it is desired to make Birthright a low-magic item setting then the simplest method is to just rasie the gp market value of the items. While getting gp is not usually a problem in Birthright, the corresonding increase in exp would help to some what slow down the mass production that could arise.

Now in 2nd ed there really weren&#39;t any mechanics introduced to limiti magic item production, other than what was put out in the BoR which listed items that were not available. There was an option listed that increased the gp and exp for items though, but in 3rd ed the two are inherently tied together so changing the gp value has a corresponding change in the exp cost of an item.

[geeman]

At 05:38 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8

> requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved

> for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good

> way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities

> from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to

> sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.



Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

powerful character to create items of equivalent power.



It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

RP should be closer.



Gary

[Osprey]

Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can
spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is
required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid
losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up
getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and
another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can
spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so
using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more
powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for
turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to
RP should be closer.

Gary


Yes - this echoes a post I made earlier in this thread about RP vs. permanent bloodline loss.

Here&#39;s a possibility: require a permanent bloodline point be spent if substituting RP for XP, but grant the formerly mentioned exchange rate of 10:1 (with the new bloodline rules in the update). In other words, a regent mage with a bloodline score of 40 burns a point of bloodline when creating a magical staff. As that point of bloodline is worth 40 RP, he gains 400 XP to put into the creation of the item. Any excess XP/RP are lost.

I like this solution because it always requires a real sacrifice on the part of the creator, while still giving a nod towards strong bloodlines having more power (and thus equaling more XP). It also eliminates the problem of using a few RP at a time to completely substitute the cost of minor items without ever losing more than a portion of the regent&#39;s seasonal collection. Given that a regent can only increase his bloodline 2 times per year through RP (under optimal conditions, too&#33;), this limits the amount of major items any articifer would crank out, and thus the overall number of such items likely to be found in the world or to be produced by PC articifers.

How does this work for a decent variant to be published?

-Osprey

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:

> At 05:38 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>> I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8

>> requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved

>> for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good

>> way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities

>> from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to

>> sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.

>

> Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

> spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

> required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

> losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

> getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

> another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

> spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

> using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

> powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

>

> It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

> turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

> RP should be closer.

> Gary



I disagree here. Yes, RP and bloodline are somewhat interchangeable, as

one can spend the one and raise the other. And yes, someone with a high

bloodline who sacrifices 1 point of bloodline sacrifices more virtual RP

than a character with a low bloodline, as the one with the low bloodline

needs less RP to raise it again.



However the regent with a high bloodline usually reigns a larger realm

and collects RP more easily than the regent with low RP which balances

the difference in "virtual RP" out for the one point of bloodline.



It IS a problem for those who play BR only on the adventure level and

are not regents, as those earn no RP through holdings.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

I agree with Michael. Bloodline points and RP are not interchangeable. Never have been and as written in the BRCS are not.

In an adventure only level campaign this assumption doesn&#39;t not work, since characters have bloodlines but don&#39;t earn RP since they aren&#39;t regents.

While a regent can convert his RP into a bloodscore increase it is not very often (twice a year at the most) and even then he has to pretty much ignore domain actions in order to do this.

As I have pointed out many times, and no one has stated anything to contrary, RP is like interest. A regent really doesn&#39;t have to do anything in order to earn it. All he has to do is have a holding, there is no "risk" associated with this. There may be with doing other domain actions that could affect his holding, but that usually revolves around someone else&#39;s actions and not his.

The exp cost in creating magic items is a reflection of some person investment and sacrifice that a character places into the item. These are gained by surviving risks or challenges placed in the character&#39;s path along his way. Again, RP collection really involves no sacrifice of things gained by overcoming challenges of this type.

Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.

Wizards don&#39;t generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score that would be something that would require real though as to was it worth it.

[geeman]

At 04:11 PM 10/19/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:



>>Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

>>spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

>>required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

>>losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

>>getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

>>another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

>>spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

>>using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

>>powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

>

>I disagree here. Yes, RP and bloodline are somewhat interchangeable, as

>one can spend the one and raise the other. And yes, someone with a high

>bloodline who sacrifices 1 point of bloodline sacrifices more virtual RP

>than a character with a low bloodline, as the one with the low bloodline

>needs less RP to raise it again.

>

>However the regent with a high bloodline usually reigns a larger realm

>and collects RP more easily than the regent with low RP which balances

>the difference in "virtual RP" out for the one point of bloodline.



I think we are better off using ECL, CR and EL as the balancing factor for

having a high bloodline score and ruling a more powerful domain than trying

to account for the situation in the magic item creation rules. Those are

just more ready tools and are already set up for that purpose.



Aside from that, however, it just strikes me as being an inaccurate

portrayal of bloodline in that higher bloodline scores seem to represent a

progressive power level. That is, bloodline isn`t a "flat" progression of

power--much like character levels aren`t. There is the weird, "binary"

math of D&D`s EL system (two CR 1 monsters equals an EL 2 encounter, four

CR 1 monsters equals an EL 3 encounter, etc.) that illustrates how

character levels aren`t all equal. The game assumes that the 3rd character

level is "worth" twice as many CR 1 encounters as the 1st and

2nd. Similarly, bloodline is worth more at higher scores. The progression

isn`t quite "binary" like EL, so the progression is less obvious, but it is

there if one compares the utility of major and great blood abilities with

minor ones, and does a little analysis of the effects of having a higher

bloodline score in relation to the RP spent to get there and the ECL of

bloodline. (It helps to use decimal values for such a comparison.) Also,

characters with higher bloodline scores represent a scaling up power system

if one considers the math involved in acquiring a bloodline

randomly. Higher bloodlines being demonstrably more difficult to achieve.



Thematically higher bloodline scores represent a powering up scale on a

sort of progression to godhood. That doesn`t mean that all scions are on

the path to ascension, but they do exist on a "divine scale" where

bloodline score is the numerical value that represents their progress on

such a scale. My point in bringing that up is just to illustrate that both

game mechanically and thematically, the 1 point of bloodline strength from

a character with a higher bloodline score represents a greater expenditure

of power.



>It IS a problem for those who play BR only on the adventure level and are

>not regents, as those earn no RP through holdings.



That`s a good point too.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

> Osprey wrote:

>
Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

> spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

> required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

> losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

> getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

> another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

> spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

> using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

> powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

> It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

> turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

> RP should be closer.

> Gary

>

> Yes - this echoes a post I made earlier in this thread about RP vs. permanent bloodline loss.

> Here`s a possibility: require a permanent bloodline point be spent if substituting RP for XP, but grant the formerly mentioned exchange rate of 10:1 (with the new bloodline rules in the update). In other words, a regent mage with a bloodline score of 40 burns a point of bloodline when creating a magical staff. As that point of bloodline is worth 40 RP, he gains 400 XP to put into the creation of the item. Any excess XP/RP are lost.

> I like this solution because it always requires a real sacrifice on the part of the creator, while still giving a nod towards strong bloodlines having more power (and thus equaling more XP). It also eliminates the problem of using a few RP at a time to completely substitute the cost of minor items without ever losing more than a portion of the regent`s seasonal collection. Given that a regent can only increase his bloodline 2 times per year through RP (under optimal conditions, too&#33;), this limits the amount of major items any articifer would crank out, and thus the overall number of such items likely to be found in the world or to be produced by PC articifers.

> How does this work for a decent variant to be published?

> -Osprey



Something slightly similar would be the temporary or semi-permanent

sacrifice of "a drop of blood" = losing X Hitpoints. Either the weak

version in which the hitpoints heal normally, or the harder limitation

in which they don´t heal and can´t be healed by spells, but by using the

training action to raise the hitpoints agin (burning actions for a

regent on the domain level).



The "Blood Magus" from Tome&Blood for example can use blood (=

inflicting a hitpointloss on himself) to substitute Components for

spells (1-50 gp needs 5 Hitpoints, 51-300 needs 11, 301-750 gp needs 17

and 750+ needs 23 Hitpoints). It´s a special ability called "Blood

Component" and he gets it from the 1st level of this prestige class.

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2006

> irdeggman wrote:

> I agree with Michael. Bloodline points and RP are not interchangeable. Never have been

and as written in the BRCS are not.



Actually I agreed in that point with Gary THAT bloodline and RP are

somewhat interchangeable, as you can use RP to raise your bloodline

score and can lose bloodline points if by bad rule or failed major

actions you lose enough RP to lower your RP number below 0.



> In an adventure only level campaign this assumption doesn`t not work, since characters have

bloodlines but don`t earn RP since they aren`t regents.



There is an optional? rule that adventurers/scions can earn RP similar

to XP. In the 2E material this is mentioned in several places, for

example in King of the Giantdowns and in the Book of Regency - the

magical "Bloodstone Rings" are specifically mentioned in that you can

store RP gained in this way to use them for actions even if you have no

holdings.



> While a regent can convert his RP into a bloodscore increase it is not very often (twice a

year at the most) and even then he has to pretty much ignore domain

actions in order to do

this.

> As I have pointed out many times, and no one has stated anything to contrary, RP is like

interest. A regent really doesn`t have to do anything in order to earn

it. All he has to do is

have a holding, there is no "risk" associated with this.



The risk is not in earning the RP once you have a bloodline and holdings

to collect RP - the risks are in aquiring maintaining a high bloodline

(without being bloodthefted, assasinated) and aquiring and maintaining

or expanding your realm. Both numbers are in constant danger by random

events and other players or NPC´s.







> Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.

> Wizards don`t generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on

creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score

that would be

something that would require real though as to was it worth it.



It seems I played in the wrong games - when I played a wizard in

Morgramens Crown of Glory II I never had too much RP. And generally I

could have needed more than I had. Casting Realm spells alone burns RP

fast (summon 3 Stonecrown Ogre units for example). And wizards need to

create and rule their holdings just like anyone else.

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

> Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.
> Wizards don`t generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on
creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score
that would be
something that would require real though as to was it worth it. [Irdeggman]

It seems I played in the wrong games - when I played a wizard in
Morgramens Crown of Glory II I never had too much RP. And generally I
could have needed more than I had. Casting Realm spells alone burns RP
fast (summon 3 Stonecrown Ogre units for example). And wizards need to
create and rule their holdings just like anyone else.
bye
Michael


I completely agree with that - I find wizards more desperate for RP than just about any other regent in my campaigns. In part this is because everything they do requires RP, from creating/ruling/contesting source holdings, to casting realm spells, to raising bloodline. And if they don&#39;t have a nice healthy regular donation of GB from a wealthy regent, they&#39;re often burning up those "surplus" RP on the Alchemy realm spell in order to be able to continue any regent activity at all. Even with a few high level source holdings and the virtual guild income that creates (and I&#39;m glad for this addition, don&#39;t get me wrong&#33;), that usually amounts to a mere trickle of gold each season.

Finally, throw in the fact that wizards are often struggling to find enough sources to fuel a very large supply of RP in the first place, unless they&#39;re lucky enough to be in a low-civilization, source-rich area. But in those places, they&#39;re often competing with other wizards, sometimes very powerful ones. And competition drains RP like nothing else can&#33;

As the game progresses, and wizards start reaching the levels where they can start to create more potent magic items, the landed regents are often doing a good job of ruling up their provinces. And this means even less RP for the wizards, who gain levels but often lose or have to fight hard to maintain high levels of regency.

So in the end, I don&#39;t think using RP as a measure of power is as unbalancing as has been suggested. It&#39;s never "free." Those sources/holdings were often fought for, fought over again, and defended; sure, a portion are sometimes inherited in some campaigns, but those RP are so often spent holding on to what the regents already have, and if they want to grow are certainly going to be burnt trying to expand. Using RP/bloodline to make magic items is very definitely a tradeoff for regents, not "free power" in any sense.

It also comes down to a personal preference in the campaign setting. To me, RP and bloodline DO equal power, and a kind of power that seems ideal for focusing into magic of any sort. Heck, just having a bloodline gives ambient divine powers, and the more potent one&#39;s blood, the more and stronger powers one can have. Now doesn&#39;t it make sense that those more potent bloodlines would have more potent energy and power if infused into the crafting of artifacts?

-Osprey

[kari]

I dont like petty magic items.

here Im talking about hig magic items, or even clos to minor articacts.
thees items sould be of epich type.

I want the ones in game to be real powerfull wit ther own characters, purpos, path, story, and over all, spesial abilitys.

Now a item will requier a perent. there are 2 or more parents to a powerfull item.

parent 1. The Xp parent, the creator, the mother.
parent 2. The blood parent, the donor, the father.

other parents
thows donating there lifeblodd. sacrifyses for vitual xp (see book of vile darkness) :)


The item now has a blodd score and xp as whent into creating it.

the character of the blodd lets say Reynir
... the characteristics of Reynir

the character of the father, and his will, will become the will of the item, never chansing, it will nothing else but this.
Now the item may corupte and sacrifice all thet the father loved, but this will is holy to the item, and it will do what it can to obtain

it.

the mother of the item, the creator, the mage, his flwas will be intergerd into the item, if the mother has a weekness, the item will have

thet weekness as well.

now the item has lodes of Ego of its own. and could dominate, or will not to benifit thows thet are trying to do agenst its wills.

thees items can be the most tvisted creations. but if hold by anyone working in the spirit the item likes, he will fore sure benifit from

the item,

Yes, I would rule thet if you distroy the item, you will be in for some blood going your way,


I can even see a seremony where the mage has colected lodes of items for the purpose of creating his wery own "staff of the magi" But the

wills of the items he uses will not go away, and a staf of the magi creaited in this fasion will have a wery tvisted mind.


If the former owner of Blood is present when a item is distroyed, he will go back up to the level of blood he was at the creation of the

level, if he is lower, unless he is even lower then when he gave to the item, then only as much as the item is worth.

any Xp used creaiting the item are lost when it is destroed.

I would rule thet all items must use thees rules. Unless he has this feat

feat: Make low power items.
this feat is only awailable if the chatacter has encounterd a low power item.
and done a wery expensive studys taking more then 100 years. (or Dm opinions)
(usualy only few elves have this feat)


whit this feat the mage can create items for only its base cost, with no intelegents what so ever.
And dos not need any blood power to fule the item.