Multiclass Characters and Realm Magic

[Lord Eldred]

Since not all magic-users are allowed to use realm magic and only those that are true wizards are allowed to wield it, what do people think about multiclass wizards being allowed to use realm magic?

[Raesene Andu]

I see no reason why not. However, 3E games do have a problem in that multi-classing is now a lot easier. Every regent will want to become a multi-class fighter/rogue/wizard to take advantage of the benefits each class can give.

My solution so far has been to only allow multi-classing to wizard if the regent is willing to spend a couple of years at the college of sorcery learning the ways of magic. However, you can multi-class to a sorcerer, but I have restricted the number of realm/battle spells a sorcerer can learn, so this is not as good.

Also I'm using a rule where a regent only gains full RP from his favoured class (class he has most levels in) and every other class only gets 1/2 RP benefits.

[Lord Eldred]

I think the ease of becoming multiclass and the overwhelming advantage of it is exactly my problem with allowing them to cast realm magic. I guess if I made some of the restrictions you do that would help.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Bloodaxe]

So far in the campaign I run only one player has any multi classed characters.... my Fighter/Priest lord, and his Half-Elf brother a Fighter/Mage...

No one else has multi classed, and I've only seen one relm spell even used so far.

[morgramen]

I use this rule, which is directly copied from my PbeM. So far, it seems to have cut down on multiclass characters (I don't have a single one yet out of 30 something players.)

In order to determine how many "unspent" RPs you may carry over to the next turn (or otherwise bank), you divide your bloodline strength by the number of classes you hold (rounding up). Thus, a Fighter/Thief/Mage ( levels 6/4/3) with a bloodline of 32, is able to bank only 11 RPs each turn. Any additional RPs are lost if not spent. This bank may grow to be any size the player wishes, but he can never actually add more than 11 RPs each turn. It is more beneficial to be a single classes character in terms of RP wealth!

[morgramen]

Oops... hehehe... pressed OK before finsihing my post. :)

In relation to multiclass and realm spells, I would allow it. Since a multiclass regent also needs to hold mulitple holding types, he's got a lot tougher time trying to maintain his domain and keep his holdings intact.

Since he will need a source holding to cast his spells, he has to compete with the single class wizzies. Since he might also be a thief, he's got to compete with the other guilders for market shares. Same with law holdings and temples.

The key here is for hte DM to be certain that his NPCs aren't stagnant, and to keep his multi class player busy busy busy with defending his mega corporation of cross class holdings intact.

A multiclass regent who trys to hold multiple holding types is spreading himself thin...

[blitzmacher]

In regards to collecting RP the characters first class they chose is what they will recieve full RP's in, and only half RP's in whatever other class they have multiclassed into.
As far as multiclassing into a wizard and casting realm spells, as see no problem in it after all a wizard is a wizard. I just wish I would have thought about making the person in my group attend the college of sorcery before I let him multiclass into a wizard.
As far as maintaining multiple holdings, the bigger you are the more of a target you become for competition.

[Lord Eldred]

I like a lot of these ideas because they all agree that something has to be done to cut down on the number of multiclass characters. I really like the idea of the larger and more successful you are the more people are gunning for you and challenging you.

The one statement I disagree with is the statement after all a wizard is a wizard. There is a difference between a true wizard and other magic users according to the rules. Only true wizards can cast realm spells.

[blitzmacher]

I should explain what I mean when I say wizard.
I call all true wizards wizards, and all other mages, it keeps me from getting confused. As for as multiclassing into a wizard, if your blooded or an elf why multi into a mage when a wizard is more powerful, but they should go to an appropriate school or teacher.

[Lord Eldred]

I understand now. It does tend to get confusing. I would have to agree that multiclassing into a mage and not a wizard doesn't make sense from a why would you want to do that standpoint but on the other hand it should be harder to become a wizard expecially a multiclass one.

[blitzmacher]

That's where I agree with Andu and have the character spend some time at the college of sorcery, in which case who's going to run thier holdings?

[Lord Eldred]

Your Lieutenant or 2nd in command would run the holdings. If not they may all fall by the wayside and that would be the price you play for trying to become a wizard

[Raesene Andu]

Actually, in the Adurian Setting I'm working on at the moment, I'll be dropping the wizard class altogether and replacing it with the Shadow Mage (who cast illusions, enchantment and necromantic spells). Wizards will only be found in the north near Anuire, where the old Anuirean empire conquered and settled several realms. In the old empires and further south, there are only sorcerers, magicians and shadow mages.

As for battle/realm magic. Wizards and Shadow Mages are unrestricted in the number of realm and battle spells they can learn or create, magicians can't cast any, not even those from the illusion school. Their link to the Mebhaighl is just not strong enough to access the more powerful battle magic. And sorcerers will be able to cast a limited number. In my opinion, the sorcerer class has a link to the magic of the land as strong or stronger than that of a wizard, so there is no reason why they can't cast these spells.

Basically, what I will be doing for sorcerers is allowing them to select one battle/realm spell every time they advance a level. This spell has to be one they can cast, and it can be a new spell of their own design. As a result a 5th level wizard/shadow mage can cast as many realm and battle spells as he wants to learn, while a 5th level sorcerer is limited to a choice of only 5 battle or realm spell. They will even themselves out as you reach higher levels. A 20th level sorcerer with 20 battle or realm spells is propably just as powerful as a wizard of the same level, but at low levels a wizard is a little more powerful.

[morgramen]

Nice ideas Ian!

In my concept of Aduria, I had also not included wizards in the mind sketch. I had used sorcerors primarily, and a multiclassed sorceror/priest type (maybe some sort of new class, or a prestige class of sorts).

I had played with the idea that the realm spells of Aduria were inheritly different from those cast in Anuire, and that the 'bond'; between wizzie and mebhaigle was tainted by Azrai's grasp (Ala Robert Jordan). This causes the land to suffer in some way whenever a realm spell is cast (ala Darksun). I'm still pondering this concept though, and have to iron out a few wrinkles.

[Lord Eldred]

Interesting concepts! Andu, I am interested in why you decided to devide things up the way you did with having wizards only in one location and shadow mages as you move out.

I like morgramen's explanation of what he did with Anduria and Anuire.

What do your players think of these changes?

[Raesene Andu]

Well to explain it really simply, without going into all the detail I will use in the final product, Aduria originally had only the two forms of magic, sorcery (used by dragons and their kin) and lesser magic (used by humans, turan, and other younger races).

Then one day along came Azrai and in his rise to dominence in Aduria, he taught the ancient Vos magicians how to use true magic, but unlike the magic of the elves, the magic taught by Azrai drew on the dark forces of the shadow world, unstead of the energy of Mebhaighl. To harness this new power, the 12 sorcerers who came to follow Azrai were given a portion of his power (effectivly a bloodline). Being humans, they based their new spells on the magicians spells (so were effectivly wizards, but only drew on the powers of darkness, or necromancy, illusion and enchantment).

However, they were not the only humans to cast this new magic, just the first and most powerful, the closest to Azrai.
One of these sorcerers, Xalin, created an artifact called the shadow stone, a simple enough device, that allowed the holder to drain the life force of a being and use it to power his magic (effectivly, 1 life drained = 1 spell level able to cast). This artefact was copied and used by power-hungry magicans to power spells of the new shadow magic. So it was that shadow magic came to be seen as the only form of true magic availble to humans.

Then, after Deismaar, more humans in Aduria now had bloodlines, so they could either choose to follow darkness and become Shadow Mages, or strike out on their own and become sorcerers. But in Cerilia, humans who learned magic from the elves based their new magic on the elven teachings and created true magic, which drew on Mebhaighl, not Awnmebhaighl (the magic of the shadow world). And as Anuire grew in power, the conquered the northern reaches of Aduria, as well as the ancient coastal land of Subriya and with their armies came wizards, thus in the northlands and Subriya, humans today learn true magic and become wizard, while in the other realms they become sorcerers and shadow mages.

While it is possible that there would be some cross-over between the regions, there are significant political and geographical divides that mean few people of the south and west mix with the northern lands.


As for the differences between the two forms of magic, there are few. A shadow mage draws on different spells than a wizard, but realm magic and battle magic are uneffected, although I may add some rule about the use of shadow magic breaking down the barriers between the worlds, and causing the shadow world to creep closer in provinces were a shadow mages casts realm magic.

[Lord Eldred]

I think you should make the two worlds collide where there are shadow mages. It would make for great adventures trying to severe the ties because of the dangers that come out of the shadow world. Let me know what you decide. I am interesting in hearing about it.

[sivar]

I read one conversion book that said that to cast a realm spell you have to have a feat that allows you to cast a realm spell "realm spellcasting" feat.

I dont know if that is a good idea. Havent had to use it still because there are no wisards in my campaign...yet.

[Lord Eldred]

I am not sure that fits totally. You have to be a true wizard to cast realm magic. If you take the feat does that mean your a true wizard? I do like the idea of another hurdle a multiclass character would have to jump over to cast the spell however.

[Leland]

First I would like to say, I love the Shadow Mage idea! Second bear in mind NONE of the human NPC's in Birthright is multiclassed. It would be a monumental task to change even a handful all of them and in my opinion, it would only be fair to do that if you ALLOWED players to multiclass. I think that just because 3E rulebooks allow for simpler multiclassing, it doesn't mean it should be permissable in Birthright. Unless the PC's are, dare I say it, demihuman. Humans aren't as long lived as most demihumans. So being mulitclassed would take a lot of time and dedication that humans simply don't have. Elves on the other hand can be Fighter/Mages etc because they live a very long time and have the time to focus on more than one discipline of study. But if you do indeed allow humans to multiclass, realm spells should not be permissable as they are long involved spells that the player may not have time to learn properly. Leave the True Wizardry to single classes who show their single-minded devotion to their craft.

Leland

[Temujin]

Orginally posted by Leland
[...]bear in mind NONE of the human NPC's in Birthright is multiclassed.[...]
Leland

I've seen a few. Admitted, they are quite rare, but there are some multi-classed human NPCs. Off the top of my head, I do remember the rulers of Molochev and (not 100% sure) Rzhlev are both multi-classed(and if I remember correctly, Molochev is Fighter/Mage and Rhzlev is Priest/Mage; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm pretty sure there are other examples, they just don't come to me at the moment.

[Lord Eldred]

Leland, I think I heard someone make the argument that humans just don't have the same amount of time as some non-human classes to learn...hmmm...where did I hear that :P

[Xerath]

Lord Eldred, I am opposed to any suggestion that would limit the strength of Realm magic for multiclass characters. Not that I have any personal interest in the subject..

But, if you want an unbiased opinion, I think any character that has studied as a mage, especially if it is their primary (strongest) class, should be unrestricted. - unbiased, HONEST!

[Lord Eldred]

Xerath=Wizard/Fighter=Unbiased I don't think so!

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Yeup, Rhzlev is a Fighter/Wizard (a powerful one, too)

[Lord Eldred]

Where is this NPC from?

[Green Knight]

They are talking about the ruler of Rhzlev - a nasty chick if you ever saw one. From Havens of the Great Bay.

Rhzlev is part of the Overlook region if I remember correctly. Was once a Brecht realm, but got occupied by the Vos after the Brecht League was defeated.

[Lawgiver]

I see no problem with multi-class characters not having the full benefits. I think the problem with the power lies more in the DMs lack of restriction for becoming multi-classed. Becoming a mage is more than simply filling a slot of a few thousand XP and suddnely deciding you want to weild spells. Its an art that requires years of training even to be a lackey. I rarely let my PCs suddenly transition to a mage multiclass. If they didn't start with plans of becoming that way they can forget switching in less than 5 solid game sessions or a BARE MINIMUM of 2yrs of game time.

IF however a PC is created under the pretense of planning to become of say a fighter mage. Then the character history will generally need to reflex involvement with the arcane as an appretice in the past.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Green Knight

They are talking about the ruler of Rhzlev - a nasty chick if you ever saw one. From Havens of the Great Bay.

Rhzlev is part of the Overlook region if I remember correctly. Was once a Brecht realm, but got occupied by the Vos after the Brecht League was defeated.

Cool, I have to meet this "nasty chick"!! Perhaps we can share a drink or two ;)

[Green Knight]

I have her mebhaighl number somewhere, I'll send you a magic bird as soon as I find it ;)

[Lord Eldred]

Would appreciate it!