Chapter 5 Revision

[Raesene Andu]

I've just started work on writing the Domain Rules for the upcoming revised edition of the BRSC and would like to call on everyone who has has something they would particularly like to see changed or added to step forward now and let me know now so I can consider your ideas for the revision.

Many good ideas have already been put forward by the BR community and these will lead to many changes, either to correct errors, clarify certain rules, or to add new rules. Some additional ideas I am working with at the moment include...

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).

Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).

Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).
Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now.
(After playing a wizard in a pbem, I realised that this is one rule that really needs to be changed. I'll also be clarifying the ley line rules, and adding to them a little.)

Spy Networks: Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)

Other Rules: I'm also considering more new rules, but I'll talk about them in the future. I don't want to make the rules too cumbersome, but at the same time, I do want to make them easier to read, and more complete than the draft version.


The revised domain rules will be released in draft form before the rest of the BRSC to allow comments and checking. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to do this with each chapter, to allow input from the BR community on the what we are working on.

[Osprey]

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).


Hmm, I'm not sure I like the idea of Lts. being cheap. In my games, I always ran it that the only Lts. who don't require maintenance are the extremely loyal ones gained through the Leadership feat. Which then requires any regent with this feat to decide between a military cohort or a loyal and able Lt. Additional Lts. may be recruited and confirmed through the Ceremony action, but these generally have a maintenance of at least 1 GB per season (possibly more at higher levels).


Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).

I would add that the effects of a Court's reputation modifier on domain actions needs to be clarified. Does this replace a regent's or Lt's skill synergy bonus, or is it strictly limited to Diplomacy actions? I would prefer to see it expanded to include all Domain actions, given the tremendous expense of maintaining a high-level court. Why wouldn't a court represent administrators, beauracrats, courtiers, and advisors? I think special advisors, those who stand above the typical court employee, are suitably represented by Lieutenants, although any NPC advisor, etc. need not be a designated Lt. with the powers to rule in the regent's stead.


Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).
Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now.

Boy, am I glad for this change! You're right, this was necessary to put source regents back in the competitive game.

I've been considering ley lines; one idea I've been using is that ley lines can't cross large bodies of water, especially seas and deep ocean, although source regents may still gather regeny from disparate island sources. The reasoning is a metaphysical one: oceans and seas aren't like land, they constantly mix and shift with currents, tides, and winds; if ley lines could remain stable within such an environment, then why wouldn't sea or ocean zones be capable of holding source potential? Now if we're talking about underwater races like tritons or merfolk, that might be a different story, but I'd tend to rule that landlubber mages just can't reach beneath the sea to access these potential sources - the shifting seas pose a formidable barrier.


Spy Networks: Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost.

I'd be carefuly about over-detailing this aspect, as it could very quickly become too cumbersome for a domain level of play. If a spy network remains a general net of spies and informants (hence giving the +2 Espionage synergy bonus, and allowing Espionage as court actions), it is still quite potent. Here as in the court, skilled lieutenants and hirelings can be used to represent the particularly useful spies coordinating Espionage actions in the province. I have several PC regents in my own game with Spymaster lieutenants who utilize spy networks to great advantage.

Concerning Espionage, I've been using a few additions that might be of interest to the revised BRCS. The major one is that Law holdings (in addition to Guild holdings, if any) may add their levels to any defensive Espionage actions, i.e. Counter-Espionage. This seems a natural role for any police force. This doesn't get out of hand so long as the DC's for these actions are sufficiently high (DC 20-30+ to uncover a spy network isn't unreasonable, given their secretive nature).

I also use a sliding scale of success for all Espionage actions. After establishing the base DC for the action, regents learn progressively more information the better their success on the action. If they succeed against the base DC, I give them basic information relating to the objective information, or a simple success in intrigue. For every 5 points by which their Espionage check beats the DC, I give them progressively more detailed levels of information or more complete and intricate successes in intrigue-type schemes.

Speaking of intrigue, this was an important part of the original BR game that seems to have gotten lost in the BRCS. I would love to see a revival of some detailed information on intrigue-oriented espionage written into the revised BRCS, including some specific examples that give players and DM's some ideas of what these actions might entail and how they would work, and what might be some typical DC's and effects of successful actions.

Some thoughts on Intrigue: Gather Information doesn't seem like the appropriate key skill here, though an info-gathering Espionage action might be a necessary precursor to a successful intrigue. The original BR had Intrigue as a seperate skill; whether this should be reintroduced or not is up to debate. In truth, intrigue actions could be a combination of any number of roguish skills: Bluff, Gather Info, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Listen (eavesdropping), and Search (finding or planting evidence) might all be potentially usefula skills depending on the nature of the intrigue and the favored methods employed. Profession: Courtier and Kn: Nobilty would also be helpful in knowing how best to implement an intrigue at a court level.

[Eosin the Red]

Raesene Andu wrote:

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even

perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).



I think this is a 100% step in the right direction but worry that it will be exploited by the big action realms like Avanil who are at max. Limiting it to Lieutenants (Any number) only giving one additional court action would help out. Additional Lts are still useful since they could be better in some areas. I think that Lts should be able to handle the “skilled part” of domain actions. That is: Darien Avan does not oversee the establishment of spy networks – he orders his Spymaster to do so. Basing the chack off of Avan himself is counterintuitive.



Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).



I like this rule.



Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...Level 1-3: 1 monthLevel 4-6: 2 monthsLevel 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now. (After playing a wizard in a pbem, I realised that this is one rule that really needs to be changed. I'll also be clarifying the ley line rules, and adding to them a little.)



Thank you. This is another rule that I use.



Spy Networks:

Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the

movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)



There are some issues with Spy Networks that I have run into. Some regents – especially when facing smaller court realms can bury the other player in 1 Domain Turn. Take Endier for instance: Let us say that Endier (Court of 6, Palace 4) had a problem with Tournen (Court of 5, no Palace) – In Turn 2.1 they decide to spend 3 court actions on Espionage to incite random events in Tournen, 2.2 they spend another 4 court actions, and finally deciding to nail the coffin shut they spend 5 court actions on 2.3 giving a total of 12 attempts at Random Events. Assuming that a 3rd of those actions succed they have ensured that Tournen, even if it responds with everything, cannot address all 4 random events within a turn resulting in the “aging” of a random event and all of the negatives that it brings. Endier also did not spend a single court action while tying up Tournen’s entire turn of (more than likely) Standard Actions. Heaven help Tournen if Endier spent some RP and went for Great Captian actions. (PS - making sense does not matter to some people who will cry "the rules do not prohibit me from it.")



I would rule (and do) that an spy network is capable of only a single action per month be it offensive or defensive. If a player asked I would allow for the creation of a second spy network within a country if they desired it but it would also incur a maint cost.



Other Rules:



These are allot of the biggies. As mentioned earlier, there needs to be some particular attention paid to wizards and the actions that are “realm-ible” and what constitues a court for them.



Randy~Eosin

[Osprey]

Spy Networks:
Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the
movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)

There are some issues with Spy Networks that I have run into. Some regents – especially when facing smaller court realms can bury the other player in 1 Domain Turn. Take Endier for instance: Let us say that Endier (Court of 6, Palace 4) had a problem with Tournen (Court of 5, no Palace) – In Turn 2.1 they decide to spend 3 court actions on Espionage to incite random events in Tournen, 2.2 they spend another 4 court actions, and finally deciding to nail the coffin shut they spend 5 court actions on 2.3 giving a total of 12 attempts at Random Events. Assuming that a 3rd of those actions succed they have ensured that Tournen, even if it responds with everything, cannot address all 4 random events within a turn resulting in the “aging” of a random event and all of the negatives that it brings. Endier also did not spend a single court action while tying up Tournen’s entire turn of (more than likely) Standard Actions. Heaven help Tournen if Endier spent some RP and went for Great Captian actions. (PS - making sense does not matter to some people who will cry "the rules do not prohibit me from it.")

I would rule (and do) that an spy network is capable of only a single action per month be it offensive or defensive. If a player asked I would allow for the creation of a second spy network within a country if they desired it but it would also incur a maint cost.


There are some limiters on the use of Spy Networks. There is a normal limit of 1 per province for a given regent, and the fact that each spy network has a seasonal maintenance cost of 1 GB per season makes maintaining too many of them (5 min. in your example) ridiculously expensive (not to mention the cost of that court6/palace4 at 8 GB per season!). Throw in that each espionage action, though a court action, also has a base cost of 1 GB, and we're talking about some pretty hefty sums: typically more than Endier could afford unless it has some really extensive guilds and trade routes and few armies. Possible, yes, but not terribly likely IMO.

I've always assumed a limit of 1 Espionage action per province in a month as a given. A spy network only allows a court action Espionage action in its particular province. These are some pretty strict limitations as well.

My own experience is that a regent with too many spy networks ends up incurring huge expenses that are difficult to cover over the long term, but slow to build since it takes a Standard Action to create a spy network. Also, if you allow defending regents to use their law holding levels to oppose the check to establish the spy network, it can make it an even more difficult and costly procedure.

[Raesene Andu]

Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

Lieutenants
The bonus court/character action provided by having a lieutenant will be limited to 1/round no matter how many lieutenants you have. Also, I will have optional rules dealing with lieutenant costs.

Courts
I think the reputation modifer should cover all court actions (i.e. those that are performed by your court, not your lieutenant). If this include part of a realm action (e.g. where a regent may be ruling up more than 1 holding at once) then this modifier is applied. This reputation modifier primarily effects actions within the regent's domain, where his courtiers are recognised, as well as diplomacy.
This section does need some work, and I think something that will be a lot of help will be combining all the rules on the same subject into on section, instead of spreading them across sections and even across chapters as was done in the playtest version. So all the info that deals with a court will be combined into one section headed Courts.

Ley Lines
I agree with the idea that ley lines can't cross large bodies of water (anything larger than a sea). This was something clarified for the original 2E rules, but passed over in the BRCS for some reason.

Spy Networks/Intrigues
One of the ideas behind adding a section on spy networks (as a domain assest) was to flesh out the section on espionage a little more, possibly providing some examples. I'm just thinking about how set everything out in the revised rules at the moment (mainly what goes where exactly).

I do like the sliding scale idea, will propably implement something like that. I've also assumed a limit of 1 espionage action per domain round, no matter if it comes from a court action or domain action.


New Ideas
This is a rule I've introduced for dwarven regents (well dwarven province regents anyway) in my pbem. Unless everyone thinks it is really good idea, it probably won't make it into the BRCS, but I'm just tossing it out there for you to discuss.

Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]
As they mine the depths beneath the earth, the dwarven nations of Cerilia produce large quantities of gold, silver, gemstones, and other valuables. The dwarven craftsmen use these riches to create items of great beauty and value, but in times of need some of these riches may be claimed by a dwarven king and put to use for the good of the dwarven people.
As a standard domain action, a dwarven king can attempt to use his influence among the people to collect additional wealth for his treasury. The base DC for this action is 20 and the DC may be modified by the total of the regent’s holdings in the province where this action is being attempted. For example, if the Stonelord of Khurin-Azur, Tjorgrim Stonesoul attempts to acquire the resources of his people in his capital province, where he has a level 4 law holding and a level 3 guild holding, then the DC of this attempt of 13. No additional RP can be spent to improve the success chance of this action.
Before attempting this action the regent must decide how much of his regency he wishes to attempt to convert to gold. The minimum cost for this action is 5 RP and that will produce 1 GB worth of acquired resources if the action is successful. For every additional 5 RP the regent risks on this action he potentially gains an additional 1 GB worth of resources. For example, Tjorgrim Stonesoul wishes to attempt to acquire 5 GB worth of resources from his people to fund his armies. This will cost him 25 RP no matter the outcome. If he is successful then he gains the 5 GB, but if the people are not swayed by his requests then he loses all the RP spent on the attempt.
This action can only be used once per domain turn, and can only be conducted by dwarven regent who rules a province. Law, temple, guild, and source regents do not have access to this action. The population of the province must also be racially dwarven, so this action cannot be conducted in a province that has been captured from another race.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Oct 27 2003, 04:48 AM
Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

Lieutenants
The bonus court/character action provided by having a lieutenant will be limited to 1/round no matter how many lieutenants you have. Also, I will have optional rules dealing with lieutenant costs.

Ian, you don't need to add any rules for costs of Lts. They are treated like cohorts and the DMG has 'guidelines' for how much to pay them. (see BRCS -pg 149) This is up to the PC and the DM for how to handle it. Any additions would, IMO, just be extraneous material.

[Osprey]

I do like the sliding scale idea, will propably implement something like that. I've also assumed a limit of 1 espionage action per domain round, no matter if it comes from a court action or domain action.


I think a limit of one espionage action per realm per round is a more reasonable limit...I don't see a good reason to forbid an espionage-focused regent from using his 3 spy networks in 3 different realms, if that's how he wants to spend his resources.

[teloft]

I would think of spy networks as something witch is rather expensive to create, but rahter chep to matain.

But i would like to see some chence of a
spy networks to give wrong infromation,
no information at all or go doble cross
if only mataind for a long time

with increasing chance of coruption the longer the
spyes are set on low matainace.

A spy on low matainance will probebly try to earn him
selfe a living by applying trade, or with other activetys
by simply laying low.

:ph34r:

[ConjurerDragon]

Raesene Andu schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2042

>

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

> Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]

> As they mine the depths beneath the earth, the dwarven nations of Cerilia produce large quantities of gold, silver, gemstones, and other valuables. The dwarven craftsmen use these riches to create items of great beauty and value, but in times of need some of these riches may be claimed by a dwarven king and put to use for the good of the dwarven people.

> As a standard domain action, a dwarven king can attempt to use his influence among the people to collect additional wealth for his treasury. The base DC for this action is 20 and the DC may be modified by the total of the regent’s holdings in the province where this action is being attempted. For example, if the Stonelord of Khurin-Azur, Tjorgrim Stonesoul attempts to acquire the resources of his people in his capital province, where he has a level 4 law holding and a level 3 guild holding, then the DC of this attempt of 13. No additional RP can be spent to improve the success chance of this action.

> Before attempting this action the regent must decide how much of his regency he wishes to attempt to convert to gold. The minimum cost for this action is 5 RP and that will produce 1 GB worth of acquired resources if the action is successful. For every additional 5 RP the regent risks on this action he potentially gains an additional 1 GB worth of resources. For example, Tjorgrim Stonesoul wishes to attempt to acquire 5 GB worth of resources from his people to fund his armies. This will cost him 25 RP no matter the outcome. If he is successful then he gains the 5 GB, but if the people are not swayed by his requests then he loses all the RP spent on the attempt.

> This action can only be used once per domain turn, and can only be conducted by dwarven regent who rules a province. Law, temple, guild, and source regents do not have access to this action. The population of the province must also be racially dwarven, so this action cannot be conducted in a province that has been captured from another race.



Isn´t that a very long description for

something that 2E Birthright ruled so short,

just by allowing Dwarven Regents to use the

equivalent of the Alchemy spell to convert RP to GB?

bye

Micahel

[lordofallandnothing]

Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]

i love this idea for it rings true to what dwarves are all about.they are great miners and they all pull together during a crisis that and they seem to always follow their leaders suggestions in the end(even if the y gripe about them now) :)

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by teloft@Oct 28 2003, 02:00 AM
I would think of spy networks as something witch is rather expensive to create, but rahter chep to matain.

But i would like to see some chence of a
spy networks to give wrong infromation,
no information at all or go doble cross
if only mataind for a long time

with increasing chance of coruption the longer the
spyes are set on low matainace.

A spy on low matainance will probebly try to earn him
selfe a living by applying trade, or with other activetys
by simply laying low.

:ph34r:
Possibly if the rules set down that it is the DM who either makes the espionage roll, or decides how successful the action is, then it isn't difficult to introduce false espionage. Rather than just saying "Your espionage attempt fails." Don't let the player know for sure, just give him something as a result of his spying no matter if he sucessful or not.

As for the maintenance cost, I would agree with you, the current 1 GB is a little high, but it does depend on what the spy network can do. I would imagine that a powerful regent who has a lot of gold at his disposal will use that gold to maintain a fair sized network of spies, if he doesn't then he is going to be knocked off fairly quickly by another regent, especially if he has a lot of gold.

[Fearless_Leader]

Just some random thoughts...

-Some sort of Raid Province action could be very useful.
-I seem to recall that the Create Province action was not in the BRCS.

More to come later when it's not so late...

[kgauck]

Failed espionage doesn`t look like "your espionage attempt failed" when seen

in character. This is a short-hand statement. If the ruler is not the

spy-master directly, which is very often the case if the ruler in question

is not primarily a guild holder, its very possible that this is what the

spy-master tells the ruler seeking information. When a player directly is

the spy-master, they always get information, and then they need to figure

out whether the can make sense of it in terms of what they are looking for.

Even if this month`s result was that all of our spies in the other guy`s

country were rounded up, it tells us more than there fact that we failed.

It tells us that someone inside our organization has comprimised a list of

names to the other guy.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

-Some sort of Raid Province action could be very useful.


I emphatically agree, although this might be better detailed in Chapter 6 (War). I would love to see the pillaging rules adapted to better accomodate the effect of raiding and looting by non-occupying forces. This allows the problems of bandits and humanoid raiders (such as those from the Spiderfell or Five Peaks) to be much more relevant.

[Raesene Andu]

I use a raid province action in my pbem for the goblins of Urga-Zai. I won't post any more on that here as there are several players from my pbem who frequent this forum. I'm also considering special muster and maintenance rules for goblins, elven, dwarven, etc units, but that is something for chapter 6, not chapter 5. I'll have to see what develops for the combat rules first.

I'm not sure why create province was dropped. There aren't a lot of new lands to conquer until you look south to Aduria where most of the north-east of that continent is unruled. I'm sure their are other lands further away where you could create provinces as well, say Djapar, although I imagine the Khinasi have some hold there, just as the Anuireans once conquered parts of Aduria (and most of Cerilia), I think there is no reason why the Khinasi cannot have gone back to Djapar and retaken land there. Beyond that, there is Thaele, but that is too cold for most people, and then other continents that wil likely not have blooded regents.

[teloft]

Sorry Im not clear on this but
how did the "Create Province" work?

:ph34r:

[Raesene Andu]

Much the same as create holding, except it was creating a province... :)

Here is the description from the original rules.

Create Province
A small amount of unclaimed land exists in and around Cerilia; for example, Thaele, the northern shores of Aduria, and the island of Torova Temylatin (the island north of Vosgaard for those who don't know). If this action is sucessful, the regent creates a level 0 province for his domain. The cost to create a province is tripled if it does not adjoin a province already under the regent's control. (Lands searaed by water are not considered adjoining.) No other regents can interfere.
Before rolling for success, the DM and player should agree on the boundaries of the province. Small islands may be considered complete provinces, but larger land masses must be partitioned. Where appropriate, use geographical features to create reasonable borders; rivers and mountain ranges are excellent natural boundaries.

And the action has a success chance of 10+, a Base Cost of 1 GB (3 GB if new province doesn't border regent's old provinces) and it was a standard domain action.

[Osprey]

Create Province
A small amount of unclaimed land exists in and around Cerilia; for example, Thaele, the northern shores of Aduria, and the island of Torova Temylatin (the island north of Vosgaard for those who don't know). If this action is sucessful, the regent creates a level 0 province for his domain. The cost to create a province is tripled if it does not adjoin a province already under the regent's control. (Lands searaed by water are not considered adjoining.) No other regents can interfere.
Before rolling for success, the DM and player should agree on the boundaries of the province. Small islands may be considered complete provinces, but larger land masses must be partitioned. Where appropriate, use geographical features to create reasonable borders; rivers and mountain ranges are excellent natural boundaries.

And the action has a success chance of 10+, a Base Cost of 1 GB (3 GB if new province doesn't border regent's old provinces) and it was a standard domain action.

Other regents interfering is one thing: but what about the hostile natives? I recently used this action in my own campaign, wherein the regent of Mieres added a province (he named it Maselier) to the SW corner of the realm. I ruled that he first needed to quell the humanoids and other hostile denizens of the area...the hostiles ended up retreating into the mountains, so I made a rule that the base DC was 10, but +1 per hostile unit in the area, -1 per friendly unit there. Thus, he needed an army to neutralize the threat and give him a decent chance of succeeding at the action. I think the rule works pretty well to account for hostile tribal units, which may be quite numerous (as it is essentialy a level 0 province with a max. source rating, thus many teribal units possible).

[teloft]

I now see a new depth in the game.

how about having difrent "Create Province" depending on culture and race.

So in the regard of goblins and Humans, versus Elfs,

Now think if we have the elven Provience much larger then the human onse, do to there long life, thay can manage much larger proviences, but not leting it count less, so one elven prov would equalise to having 3 human ones.

Now if humans were to claim the land, they would need to divide it into 3 parts with "3 Create Human Province" and efectively reduce all potential of the elven provience thet tay took over.

Well, Im mostly thinking this for a game Im writing.

There I would also like to have, create land spell/ rais land - efectively chasing the flow of rivers. Create mountain,

I would like to calc the rain in a prov in order to see whether there sould be a river starting here or there.

And the cultivation, Forrests of difrent type, deserts of volcanic black sands, yellow sands, or hard with no sand, swaps, Bogs, wetlands, rokky, sharp lava (unpassable by horses unless there is a road), Tundra, evergreen forests, fey dark forrest (regenerating fey),

I have been thinking a lot on how to build a database containing the land.. Not clear on thet one yet.

:ph34r:

[ConjurerDragon]

Raesene Andu schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2042

>

> Raesene Andu wrote:

...

> I`m not sure why create province was dropped. There aren`t a lot of new lands to conquer

until you look south to Aduria where most of the north-east of that

continent is unruled.



Is it? I always assumed that just the Anuirean who created the map that

came with the Atlas and the Boxed Set had not had more information. But

couldn´t there be realms beyond the named provinces on the maps?



> I`m sure their are other lands further away where you could create

provinces as well, say Djapar,

although I imagine the Khinasi have some hold there, just as the

Anuireans once conquered parts

of Aduria (and most of Cerilia),



The books say that the Basarji still live in Djapar, having discouraged

contact with the "colonists" who became the Khir-aften-el-Arrasi due to

the religious dispute about the "death" of Basaia. That means that

Djapar is not just empty land to take but might have rulers as well.



I think there is no reason why the Khinasi cannot have gone

back to Djapar and retaken land there. Beyond that, there is Thaele,

but that is too cold for

most people, and then other continents that wil likely not have

blooded regents.



Thaele has already beginning colonys of the Rjurik, the Thaelasian Colonies.

bye

Michael

[teloft]

I like to see rules thet i can apply to anywere, even within my own game worlds. thet are not much relaited to Cerilia

:ph34r:

[geeman]

teloft writes:



> I like to see rules thet i can apply to anywere, even within my

> own game worlds. thet are not much relaited to Cerilia



This appears to be one of the goals of the BRCS Playtest since a bloodline

is no longer required to control a domain.



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

It would a good aim to see the bloodline rules as an add-on to the domain rules, so you don't need to have a bloodline to rule a kingdom, but obviously a blooded ruler will be far more successful than an unblooded regent due to his ability to spend RP.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by teloft@Oct 30 2003, 02:03 PM
I like to see rules thet i can apply to anywere, even within my own game worlds. thet are not much relaited to Cerilia

:ph34r:
Check out Chap 8 of the BRCS - playtest for more on how to export these rules.

[OsricIlien]

I think if you allow the ability for Lieutenants to add extra court actions there should be some sort of limit on the amount of Lieutenants you can have. And if there already exists a rule for that I'm sorry I just have not ran across it yet.

[The Jew]

Originally posted by OsricIlien@Nov 1 2003, 02:22 AM
I think if you allow the ability for Lieutenants to add extra court actions there should be some sort of limit on the amount of Lieutenants you can have. And if there already exists a rule for that I'm sorry I just have not ran across it yet.
already covered earlier in the thread by Raesene Andu. You only get a max of 1 additional court action per month from lueitenants.

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by The Jew@Nov 1 2003, 04:23 PM
already covered earlier in the thread by Raesene Andu. You only get a max of 1 additional court action per month from lueitenants.
The reasoning behind this... just in case you were all wondering... is that the lieutenant who gets the bonus action for the action round is the regent's designated second-in-command for that action. He may have a large number of lieutenants, but he can only designate one to act as his chief lieutenant for the round. The other lieutenants are off performing character actions, either assisting the regent on an adventure of doing something of their own.

The main reason I introduced this rule was to remove the need for a court for wizards and particularly poor regents, such a regents with only 1 or 2 small holdings. Instead you get a lieutenant and gain the bonus 1 court action/month. Realm regents, those who rule provinces, are the ones who mainly need a big court and can usually afford one. Guild and temple regents can afford one, but don't necessarily need it. Source regents occassionally need a court action, but generally can't afford a court. The other option was allowing regents to borrow court actions, but this is really open to abuse, so I settled on the lieutenant giving the regent the bonus court action. It also helped to set down exactly what a lieutenant does for a regent.

I'll also put some flavour text in the court rules about the various different types of courts. For example, the court of a powerful cleric is going to be very different that the traditional court of a baron or duke. It will do the same thing though. This will have effect on the game whatsoever, just a little bit of flavour.

[Osprey]

The reasoning behind this... just in case you were all wondering... is that the lieutenant who gets the bonus action for the action round is the regent's designated second-in-command for that action. He may have a large number of lieutenants, but he can only designate one to act as his chief lieutenant for the round. The other lieutenants are off performing character actions, either assisting the regent on an adventure of doing something of their own.


This brings up an issue, then: does a regent only gain the extra court action in a round where a Lt. is not also performing the round's domain action? A Lt. performing the domain action might be viewed as the "chief lieutenant" for the round...

So perhaps it needs to be firmly written that only one Lieutenant may be used on a domain level each month if this limitation is what you had in mind.

Personally, I have no problem with using multiple Lt.'s for different actions in the same month...the Spymaster doing an Espionage action (Domain action, or Court Action if using a spy network), the Warden training troops to higher standards (Court Action), and the High Chamberlain agitating to improve the local attitude toward the regent (Domain Action).

The other side of the coin (the permissive, loose rules side) is that the above actions could be done with a Level 2 Court (1 Court Action per round, +1 for a Lt.) and a spy network, leaving the regent free to pursue his own character action that month!

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 1 2003, 07:00 PM

This brings up an issue, then: does a regent only gain the extra court action in a round where a Lt. is not also performing the round's domain action? A Lt. performing the domain action might be viewed as the "chief lieutenant" for the round...

So perhaps it needs to be firmly written that only one Lieutenant may be used on a domain level each month if this limitation is what you had in mind.


If the lueitenant is performing the domain action, then the regent should be able to perform the extra court action.

[teloft]

Yes, it is in need os some flavor for the clerics, a cleric usualy dosent have his court at the local inn lol :)

[teloft]

well if you have few lt on payroll. you efectively have a court. but without the costs of having big partys, and balls.

the court givse actons for there are people there to do stuff for you. but also thay give reputation bonus. while the Lt. can do most of thees things. thay dont gain the rep modifyer.

using a lt. could also be more risky

!!

:ph34r:

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 2 2003, 03:30 AM
This brings up an issue, then: does a regent only gain the extra court action in a round where a Lt. is not also performing the round's domain action? A Lt. performing the domain action might be viewed as the "chief lieutenant" for the round...

So perhaps it needs to be firmly written that only one Lieutenant may be used on a domain level each month if this limitation is what you had in mind.

The regent only gains the extra court action when his "chief lieutenant" is free. So if his lieutenant is doing a domain action instead of the regent then he loses the bonus court action, but he is free to personally take charge of a court or character action instead.

I'm just trying to find a way to set all this down so it doesn't cause any more consfusion. I think maybe some examples will help.


Personally, I have no problem with using multiple Lt.'s for different actions in the same month...the Spymaster doing an Espionage action (Domain action, or Court Action if using a spy network), the Warden training troops to higher standards (Court Action), and the High Chamberlain agitating to improve the local attitude toward the regent (Domain Action).

The other side of the coin (the permissive, loose rules side) is that the above actions could be done with a Level 2 Court (1 Court Action per round, +1 for a Lt.) and a spy network, leaving the regent free to pursue his own character action that month!

This is something that is going to be worked into the rules for courts. As the regent's skills are only effective when he is personally running an action, the skills of his individual lieutenants or advisors can be used to boost the success chance of court actions. So it will make sense to have a wide range of useful advisors or lieutenants, assuming you can afford them.

To sort of summarise the rules of court action.
The level of your court decides how many court actions you get.
If you have at least 1 lieutenant then you get a bonus court action (1/month, but can be performed by any of your lieutenants)
You may hire lieutenants (varying cost) or advisors (0.25 - 0.5 GB/turn) for their skills which you can use for court actions. So you can have a spymaster, a chamberlain, a general, and so on. Lieutenants may perform domain actions for the regent, advisors can only perform court actions.

[Osprey]

Lieutenants may perform domain actions for the regent, advisors can only perform court actions.

I like this distinction. It's a big difference not only for the maintenance (which I would make recomendations for, but not set in stone - skilled advisors could easily command 1 GB per season or more!), but for the fact that an advisor doesn't require a Ceremony domain action to designate as does a Lieutenant.

[teloft]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 29 2003, 08:13 PM

-Some sort of Raid Province action could be very useful.


I emphatically agree, although this might be better detailed in Chapter 6 (War). I would love to see the pillaging rules adapted to better accomodate the effect of raiding and looting by non-occupying forces. This allows the problems of bandits and humanoid raiders (such as those from the Spiderfell or Five Peaks) to be much more relevant.
Raid Province action

would thet action not be able to all law holding in a province.



I think:

law holdings can only protect the provience to the level rate the law holding.

one active unit in a province counts as one law holding when detemring raide sucsess

So rading sucsess could be 10 + law holdings or units protecting - raid strengt

raid strengh can then be counted as some combanation of Esp/ units/ intimidation skilles/ and suchs.



___


on related notes.

I feel like guild and temple holdings sould not be reduced when a prov is raide unless the regent holding them likes to. alowing them to hold the level of there holdings for several turns with the cost of 1GB per turn per level above the prov. lv. (could also be used for law)

then if this is done it sould be easyer to rule the prov up at later time.

___

[camelotcrusade]

First, I would like to see the diplomacy action get it's own sidebar. For new players it would be very helpful to see a few examples of diplomatic actions. It may also be helpful to give info for the DM with some tips on how to keep this open-ended choice in check. For example, when do you require a diplomatic actions vs. a court action? I've assumed I can have my court send a missive requesting an audience to get somebody to come to me, and then I spend my diplomacy action actually receiving them and having a parley. For things that one might do with diplomacy, I'm not sure sure how you guys play but for me it's anything from making deals on who can rule and build where to military alliances. You all know more than I do here about what you've used this action for since you've played tons more games than me, but you still might list a few.

A few guidelines on how it works (a little behind the curtain) would also be ideal. I use a system much like the computer game since it's easy for me to interpret. I establish a base reaction to the PCs from the other side, which is default 50%, or a DC things will go well for a reasonable request. Then I tweak based on alignment, so you get +/- 5 for ethical (law/cha) and +/- 10 for moral. As a unique circumstance, the penalty is doubled (but not the bonus) when your alignments are totally opposite (LG vs. CE). Anyway, so then they have a base DC and they work from there with role-play, regency, and gold to get what they want across. I'm sure purists will hate this idea, but for people who want to make it easy I've found it helpful.

Second, I'd like to see an example of domain play. I mean 3-4 pages detailing a whole turn, sort of how in the core handbooks for D&D they have that campy session with the made-up characters. It's a groaner, but if you've never played BR or the computer game I think it would be a LIFESAVER for new people.

[Raesene Andu]

Examples are one thing that will be included extensivley in the revision of the rules. Your idea about an entire example domain turn is also a possiblity. I should warn you though, it may take some time for this revision to be completed...

[camelotcrusade]

Heh, that's certainly true Raesene. But... could you just use a PBEM turn? Then it's already documented... or maybe that's not a good example. Still, it might be neat to see one as I've wondered how it works.