Other Gods in Cerilia

[Bryon]

I have read some of Ian's write ups on his new gods.Could there be other gods in Cerilia?

Why didn't they participate in the Battle of Deismaar?

Are they younger older than the old Cerilian gods?

Could the gods from other worlds (ie Forgotten Realms) set up in Cerilia? Maybe the Shadow World allows them to send a small sliver of thier power over?

[morgramen]

I'm sure there are other Gods in the Pantheon. Keep in mind that the "official Birthirght" pantheon incvolves only those dieties mentioned based on the teachings/history/lore etc. of the Five Tribes who trekked north from Aduria.

There is still lots of Aduria left over, and what of the East? The west?

Personally, I wouldn't balloon the pantheon out to FR head count... that's way too many, and there is really no need for a God of Domestic Hygene or the like IMO. ;)

I would be more prone to altering or expanding the current 'spheres/domains/nfluence/portfolio of the current gods before adding in a wack of new ones.

[Raesene Andu]

From my work, the two human gods mentioned are older (a lot, lot older) than the gods that fought at Deismaar. They were once worshipped by giants and other creatures from ages past, and were the parents of Azrai, Brenna and the rest. They no longer involve themselves in the day to day lives of mortal beings, but still grant spells to worshippers.

The other two new gods are non-human gods (one was a dragon) who are worshipped by some of the new races to be intorduced in the Adurian expansion. Although some of their followers were involved at Deismaar, the gods themselves never fought. I have always thought that the battle at Deismaar was a final battle, one that the god opposing Azrai could not afford to lose, which is why they sacrificed everything to stop him. The non-human gods (including those worshipped by the Cerilian races) never had to make that choice.


On the matter of new gods (for example, FR gods) setting up on Aebyrnis and gaining worshippers, I don't see why not, if your tastes run that way. However, I imagine it would take centuries, as a new god would likely to be opposed by the current gods. I think the spelljammer setting had some rules about handing how priests gained spells when they left their god's sphere of influence (for example if a FR cleric travelled to Aebrynis) and what was needed to bring their god into the new sphere.

Oh, and Morg, I'll only be adding the two new human gods, which will bring the grant total to 13, considerably less that FR 57 human gods, plus numerous non-human gods. (shakes head in disbelief wondering why anyone would want so many gods,)

[Lawgiver]

[shakes his head in disbeleif... why would anyone want more than one god... :P)

[morgramen]

Is FR only at 57?? Wowza. I though that would be at a higher count than that... something on the lines of the Dieties and Demigods Tome of old.

I recall reading somewhere (in 2E FR Hardcover Book I think) that there were numerous Beast cults in Faerun. I think those would work well in Birthright, though I am unsure that I would have priestly spellcasters for such a God.

[Bryon]

OK so far we believe we should keep the human gods down to at least below 20. I totally agree. (I also agree only one is needed:) )

The demihuman gods are still in the question stage.

Also, would than other areas of the world have different names for the gods? And wouldn't that really throw the different areas of the globve into a disadvantage if they did not have people at Desmaar to get bloodlines?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Bryon
The demihuman gods are still in the question stage.

Also, would than other areas of the world have different names for the gods? And wouldn't that really throw the different areas of the globve into a disadvantage if they did not have people at Desmaar to get bloodlines?

I would vote for the elves shedding all gods. Having been deceived by Azrai their trust for such immortal beings is too great. Instead they rely on the 'great spirit of the forest'.

I've always preferred to leave dwarves as monotheistic with Moradin as their patron.

Goblins, orcs and the like may have various 'demigods', but other than Azrai most would be idols or false gods that shaman's promote to win power. The few 'gods' that do exist would not be true gods, but rather lesser demons or the like.

As far as the other races of the globe being at a disadvantage... not everyone has access to power. Without the disadvantaged there would be no advantage.

If you must press the point for equality perhaps the offlanders have access to a much stronger source of mebhaighl (since they may have smaller populations and less destruction to the land). Or perhaps, they have entered a wilderness region where survival is difficult and their environment has made them stronger (higher levels, better attributes, more hps. etc.) Or perhaps... well I could come up with several scenarios, but I shall leave that to your own campaign world.

[Lord Eldred]

For Lawgivers sake, in reality there is only one god. My father believes that in all actuallity the different religions of the world all are praying to the same god in different forms and in different ways.

Now for the game world...I think that whatever the DM feels should happen is what happens. If you want to have fifty gods go right ahead. If you want one, that is cool too. It is a fantasy world. Make it your fantasy and not one mandated to you.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
For Lawgivers sake, in reality there is only one god. My father believes that in all actuallity the different religions of the world all are praying to the same god in different forms and in different ways.


I disagree with that, but I'm not going into theology.


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Now for the game world...I think that whatever the DM feels should happen is what happens. If you want to have fifty gods go right ahead. If you want one, that is cool too. It is a fantasy world. Make it your fantasy and not one mandated to you.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Its fully up to the DM and the collaboration of the players. Its your game, play it however you feel lead.

[Elton Robb]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

I've always preferred to leave dwarves as monotheistic with Moradin as their patron.
I prefere to protray Birthright as a Henotheistic World. That is, everyone believes in many gods, but worship one (that is the feeling I get from the BoP anyway).

So the Dwarves could be monotheistic, but the humans are Henotheistic. Of course, their might be exceptions. A peasant may believe in Haelyn for all his might, but still pray to Avanlae or Aeric for good sun and a healthy crop. But generally, I like a Henotheistic interpetation.

Respectfully Yours,
Elton Robb

[Lawgiver]

I agree with the Henotheistic view of humans in Birthright.

For those who don't know. Mr. Webster says the official definition is:
Henotheism - (n.) belief in or worship of one god without denying the existence of others

[Lord Eldred]

Did you know that I have learned more new words playing D & D for the last 18 years than all my years in school?

[blitzmacher]

You're not the only one.

[Lawgiver]

Hooked on RPGs worked for me!

[Abbess Allessandra]

Did I tell you that you are all a riot?

[Lawgiver]

Beggin your pardon ma'am but we weren't meaning to cause a civil disturbance. Please don't call The Watch. We was just foolin'. Honest.

[Magian]

For the most part I must say I am surprised that I finally agree with Lawgiver on something. The description of the different deities you described is very parallel to how I interpret it.

For expansionists to the campaign I would consider a deity for each tribe of humans as a sponsor for them, or just like the tribes of Cerilia they call them by different names but they are the same deities. I do think a couple new ones could be introduced.

For Dwarves I do agree with Moradin but if one wanted to they could expand into his famliy pantheon for new faces.

Elves I agree are deity-intollerant.

The other races I do think that many minor powers would pervert them into their influence, which explains why they never have united like the humans. Basically too many to list as perhaps each group(community) follows a different one.

Maybe even one of the lost could be trying this role with some tribe somewhere.

I do think that a hidden shadow could be available like the sleeping Azrai with only a small following somewhere or some other dark part of Azrai that if awoke would seek to unite the powers of the shadow. A possible campaign scheme.

As far as the theology goes, I am with Lawgiver in the sense that I will leave that one alone.

[Lord Eldred]

Why and on what grounds do you argue elves are diety intollerant? I believe they do have a diety.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Why and on what grounds do you argue elves are diety intollerant? I believe they do have a diety.

They were burned once by the shadow and it nearly destroyed their civilization. They didn't directly have a patron deity before the shadow, and they have since returned to their previous state.

[blitzmacher]

I've been toying with the idea of using the monk character class as a basis for a new type of diety. Since elves don't believe in god's I was thinking that a monk class would work for elves, although I'm not sure how I'm going to do this yet. I was thinking about starting it small, and keeping it a completely elven thing, but I am not going to give them any priest spell capabilities. Just another idea I might use in the future.

[Magian]

Please explain the deity the elves have.

[blitzmacher]

The Elves have no diety but I was thinking of having a monkstyle monastary start up in Tuarhievel. In game rules it would only benefit from law holdings as they will have no clerical spellcasting abilities due to the fact that they worship no gods, instead they have decided to look inward spiritually to find an answer to thier problems with the humans. This small monastary was started by a group of elven sages and fighters, and although they are trying to find thier solutions through meditation, they also train constantly in the discipline and war, both armed and unarmed combat, for they realise that there will be more fighting before peace will ever exist. Thier special weapons are those typical of elves in BR, not the list given in the 3ePHB. Thats where I have gotten so far.

[Strahd]

Well, the way monks are described in the 3rd ed. PHB are totally incosistent with Cerilian elves. Not only in terms of alignment (Lawful only vs. ALMOST ALWAYS non-lawful & generally chaotic elves), but roleplaying (self-discipline, constant meditation and focus etc. are totally opposed to the Sidhe chaotic nature).

[blitzmacher]

I totally forgot about that, thanks for reminding me, but I did say that I was toying with the idea.

[The Masetian]

Perhaps Queen Tuar of Tuarhievel could attain deific status, since she could sway almost the entire Sidhelien race from Azrai to the other gods at Deismaar...she´d be like a Birthright Corellon Larethian deity...???

And if one deity could sway the Sidhelien, I think it would be Laerme..she is the goddess of beauty and love, values much emphasized by the Elves.

[Crystan]

:P A good topic

I would say the Elves wouldn't follow Laerme. They have many similar qualities, beauty and love, but then again the same applies with Ruornil and Eric, magic and nature.

The fact is the Elves of Cerilla also have a dark streak unlike the standard Elves of D&D, namely the Gheallie Sidhe, that many Elves still practice, that runs contrary to Laerme's belief system. The Cerillian Elves can't be neatly categorized like the FR Elves, they are complex creatures....

In the Elven mind....The human gods to the elves are simply extensions of the problems that plaque the Elves, namely human encroachment. Azari burned them like several posters have said, so the Elven psyche has a deep distrust of them, any of them. Realize the modern pantheon was once human, and a few Elves can remember them as mortals.

The Elves aren't atheists, they just don't go for organized religion really. They are imortals themselves, and hold their own individuality above all. In a way, they are almost gods in their own mind....to never grow old, and the ability to potentially last for all eternity. So I would say there won't be an Elven god anytime soon.

[Master Dao Rin]

I wouldn't expand the gods out to anymore than what is already there: 11. Thats plenty enough as is! For me, more gods means more headaches and a butt load of questions as to why and what works and how and all that stuff.

The Dwarf god Moradin, for instance, is just another aspect of Reynir (now Erik). All the goblins, gnolls, and orogs worship what they think is their perfect version of a god, but it really is only Azrai (aka the Cold Rider). Halflings worship what turns out to be Basarji (Avani). The Giants used to worship Azrai. The Dragons had no god, being that they were of Aebrynnis, sorta like the Elves.

I've always viewed that Aebrynnis is the Seven Old Gods playground, so to speak, and they wouldn't let anyone else play in it (nor would their "Father" see the need to create anymore than 7 "children").

I say leave the pantheon as is. Its perfect! :)

[Green Knight]

I have added several more gods to the pantheon. Much like the apperance of Cuiraecen in the centuries after Deismaar, other gods have cropped up as well. Cuiraecen is known as Haelyn's and Nesirie's son etc. No reson why you can't expand on this.

The gods I have added are all demipowers though. They are either limited in their area of operations or have very narrow portfolios. They alos have a very limited following and rarely any propper temple holdings (except a smattering of level 0 holdings). Mostly they are worshiped in conjunction with the major gods (having a small shrine or statue inside the "father" temple for instance".

Sample demipowers of Cerilia:
Naylar (son of Belinik and Kriesha) - God of Pain and Murder; Demipower, NE; Death, Evil, Suffering, Trickery.
Lyesha (daughter of Laerme and Naylar) - Goddess of Hope and Dawn; Demipower, LG; Good, Healing, Law, Renewal.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Magian

Please explain the deity the elves have.

IF you are a strict adherer to rules, BR rulebook indicates that Sidhelien have no deities at all and thus Cerilian elves cannot be priests. However there is a god of elves...

The god of elves is Corellon Larethian. Chaotic good. Known as the creator of the elves, the protector, protector and preserver of life, and ruler of all elves. He governs those things held in highest esteem among elves, such as magic, music, arts, crafts, poetry and warfare. Favored weapon is the longsword.

I also can see no reason why some might follow Erik. I never understood the rule that said Elves couldn't be swayed to follow a religion.

[Green Knight]

Elves are not like other races: immortal, magical, implacable. They are surley of the fey, not just mere humanoids.

Had elves been capable of worship, thay surely would have started a long time ago. Perhaps their fey nature makes them unable to worship a god. Perhaps it is the other way around: Gods cannot be worshiped by elves because of their fey nature?

IMC, elves are incapable of worshiping gods, just like all other fey. This is the price they pay for their immortality. They may live forever, but they will never know the joy of worship or have a place in the afterlife. When an elf dies, he retruns to the elements from which he came.

Elves are probably a quite spiritual people, but they are also very different from humans...

[Bryon]

Now I have to add that at one time the elves did believe in a god, Azari. Yes, they did get burned by him, but there still may be those that see him as the only way. ....The humans gods are the enemy still and the defeat of Azari was all there fault....

As for more gods, I think that for humans only a few more could be added. Most would be the same ones, under different names.

But there must be other lands that had nothing to do with Desmiir and they must have thier own gods or somehow been effected by the lose of those they believed in. Also, remember the Serpent and the Brecht Wizardress, can't remember her name, that are forming new temples or calling themselves gods. They are granting spells to clerics.

As for the Dwarves, I think they have one creator god, but may have lesser diety, call them saints??? The children of Moridan, I don't remember the number.

Halflings are a very difficault call so I will leave them alone...

Goblin and Humanoids worship a nunch of lesser demon and Azari in many different forms.

I still would like to see a general consensis about the rest of the BR world and what is out there. I know alot of us have ideas and would like to see them come to fruit.

Good Luke Ian, I hope more follow your footprint.

[Green Knight]

There are several mentions that the elves recognize the existence of gods. How could they not when they got trashed by human clerics. The question is: did the elves actually worship Azrai, or did he just lead them astray. The goblins, the Vos and other such nasties are mentioned as worshiping him. Can't say the same for the elves.

I'm all for additional human gods, but they should perhaps be limited to demipower status or less. Very limited in portfolio or area of influence. It is then quite easy to fit new gods into the framework already in place.

As for gods in far of lands, they may or may not be the same as those worshiped in Cerilia. Remember that the six tribes worshiped the same pantheon, even though they must have had little contact with each other (at least with the Basarji). Might the same be true for the rest of the world? If so, what happened after Deismaar? Did they continue to worship the old gods or did they turn to the new. Or did they perhaps get new gods at that time?

The Serpent? Is he turning into a new deity...

The dwarves worship Moradin. Moradin made 8 children. I have used them as lesser gods of the dwarven pantheon.

Halflings in the Burrows are mentioned as engaging in some sort of Mother-nature worship or something like that. Not very serious about it though. Halflings that live among humans probably adopt human gods - just like they adopt everything else.

[Lord Eldred]

Halflings according to the Birthright rulebook worship Avanalae.

Kartathok is a greater god worshiped by goblin-kind. Page 80 of the rulebook describes him and indicates that he is similar to the god Maglubiyet found in DMGR4. Kartahok is the head of an entire pantheon of goblin gods further described in Monster Mythology. Thus I disagree with Bryon's statement that goblins worship a much lesser demon.

I find it hard to believe that elves worshiped Azrai, I find it more likely that they were deceived into an alliance with him because of the humans.

[Green Knight]

The Burrows section from the Havens... also have some information on halfling religion.