Wizards And Sorcerers

[Osprey]

I was [re]reading through the BRCS section on Arcane Magic today. And when I got to the section on Khinasi, I was rather surprised to read that sorcerers are preferred over wizards there. What possessed the writers of this to go that road? The only reason I could think of was a purely mechanical one - because Sorcerers use Charisma as their primary attribute, and many Khinasi mages are nobles.

Bit Khinasi is a region whose parton goddess, Avani, is the lady of Reason and logic, insight and knowledge. She's Lawful Neutral, the "default" alignment of the Khinasi people IMO.

Don't all of those qualities scream "Wizard!" rather than Sorcerer? The Wizard is the one who learns through applied reason, research, knowledge, and formulas...hence their tendency toward the discipline of lawful alignments, and what I would consider a natural affinity to Avani's portfolio and the precepts of the Khinasi people.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, are intuitive and look for inspiration and "Aha!" moments to expand their powers (simulated by levelling up and gaining new spells with experience). They have a tendency toward individualism, are obviously less structured, and less dependent on reason and research in their chosen path. A definite tendency toward the chaotic alignments [as mentioned in the PHB].

So why, again, would the Khinasi favor the sorcerer's path over the wizard's? Isn't this something we ought to rectify in the revised BRCS?

Otherwise, I really enjoyed the discussion of magic in that section (Ch. 3 or 4? I forget), and thought the writing was excellent. Good work, to whoever wrote that section!

On a similar note: I would assume less scholarly cultures to also favor sorcerers over wizards...this is mentioned under goblins, and I would guess that sorcerers are more common than wizards among the Rjurik and Vos, too, and definitely among the individualistic Brecht. Not so much for utilitarian reasons, but for preferred cultural tendencies...magic must be an extremely personal and internal experience, and the choice between the wizard or sorcerer driven as much by pyschology (and the cultural baggage tied to it) as anything else.

-Osprey

[Green Knight]

Well, there aren’t any sorcerers in Cerilia (last I checked they were

all wizards) so that must be an error on the writers part ;-)



Seriously, I can see a place for sorcerers in BR. Anyone with a

supernatural heritage might qualify, be they of elven blood, descendant

from dragons, scions or whatever.



However, from that to preferring sorcerers over wizards in

Khinasi...that’s a pretty big change from canon BR. And a change that

seems very ill considered (Osprey has a lot of good reasons below).



Is this another lets just change things for the sake of changing

thingies?



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Osprey

Sent: 7. november 2003 00:17

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Wizards And Sorcerers [36#2073]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2073



Osprey wrote:

I was [re]reading through the BRCS section on Arcane Magic today. And

when I got to the section on Khinasi, I was rather surprised to read

that sorcerers are preferred over wizards there. What possessed the

writers of this to go that road? The only reason I could think of was a

purely mechanical one - because Sorcerers use Charisma as their primary

attribute, and many Khinasi mages are nobles. Bit Khinasi is a region

whose parton goddess, Avani, is the lady of Reason and logic, insight

and knowledge. She's Lawful Neutral, the "default"

alignment of the Khinasi people IMO. Don't all of those qualities

scream "Wizard!" rather than Sorcerer? The Wizard is the

one who learns through applied reason, research, knowledge, and

formulas...hence their tendency toward the discipline of lawful

alignments, and what I would consider a natural affinity to Avani's

portfolio and the precepts of the Khinasi people.Sorcerers, on the other

hand, are i

ntuitive and look for inspiration and "Aha!" moments to

expand their powers (simulated by levelling up and gaining new spells

with experience). They have a tendency toward individualism, are

obviously less structured, and less dependent on reason and research in

their chosen path. A definite tendency toward the chaotic alignments

[as mentioned in the PHB]. So why, again, would the Khinasi favor the

sorcerer's path over the wizard's? Isn't this something we

ought to rectify in the revised BRCS?Otherwise, I really enjoyed the

discussion of magic in that section (Ch. 3 or 4? I forget), and thought

the writing was excellent. Good work, to whoever wrote that

section!On a similar note: I would assume less scholarly cultures to

also favor sorcerers over wizards...this is mentioned under goblins, and

I would guess that sorcerers are more common than wizards among the

Rjurik and Vos, too, and definitely among the individualistic Brecht.

Not so muc

h for utilitarian reasons, but for preferred cultural

tendencies...magic must be an extremely personal and internal

experience, and the choice between the wizard or sorcerer driven as much

by pyschology (and the cultural baggage tied to it) as anything

else.-Osprey



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 6 2003, 06:16 PM
I was [re]reading through the BRCS section on Arcane Magic today. And when I got to the section on Khinasi, I was rather surprised to read that sorcerers are preferred over wizards there. What possessed the writers of this to go that road? The only reason I could think of was a purely mechanical one - because Sorcerers use Charisma as their primary attribute, and many Khinasi mages are nobles.

Bit Khinasi is a region whose parton goddess, Avani, is the lady of Reason and logic, insight and knowledge. She's Lawful Neutral, the "default" alignment of the Khinasi people IMO.

Don't all of those qualities scream "Wizard!" rather than Sorcerer? The Wizard is the one who learns through applied reason, research, knowledge, and formulas...hence their tendency toward the discipline of lawful alignments, and what I would consider a natural affinity to Avani's portfolio and the precepts of the Khinasi people.

-Osprey
You are absolutely correct. I have no idea how that crept in there. In one of the early workings we toyed around with 'prefered classes' for cultures not making them 'favored classes' but to give something to point to a cultural affinity. At that time Khinasi 'prefered' wizards or magicians (if non-blooded) basically due to the ties of both of those classes to study and learned vice 'natural talent'. In the workings the notion of 'preferred classes' got dropped and somehow rewritten in the format it is in now.

As for the relative commonality of sorcerers in other cultures, well they should be pretty rare except for the elves.

The Rjurik and Vos tend to shun arcane casters and most wizards/sorcerers/magicians would remain underground in those cultures or be 'stoned'. The Vos aren't really that found of Bards either and only tolerate them for their storytelling, while the Rjurik tend to give them great honor.

[The Jew]

As my DM pointed out in a pbem, the red wizards are perfect as a prestige class for khinasi. One of the five oaths requires an arcane magic user never to use necromancy, a red wizards requirement is to be specialized. They also derive their greatest strength from working with other red wizards, therefore a prestige class with lawful tendencies. One more reason that the Khinasi would be wizards.

[OsricIlien]

As I understand Sorcerers they can come from any culture or background simply by the spontaneity of their powers. However weather or not there talents would be harnessed and used or suppressed is really the question. I agree with Osprey in that in seems more appropriate for the Kinasi to favor wizard over sorcerer. And it seems this was a mistake in editing. However I dont belive we should discount sorcerers from Cerilia at all. My personal thought with them is that Mebhealie(I cant spell the word) has the potential to choose a blooded individual, normally at puberty, and grant them with magical potential. The land itself reaches out to the blooded scion and presents them with an even stronger potential of power. Arcane magic is simply a human interpretation of the twisting and altering of the flow of Mebhaelie. Sorcerers are given a door into this power from the land itself, Wizards seek it out and bend it to formula and rote. You could even go a little farther and say Sorcerers are really an extension of the land.

[RaspK_FOG]

I believe that saying that Sorcerers have an intuitive connection to Mebhaigal, that is, a way to perceive the world's magical flows and understanding how to manipulate them without necessarily comprehending them, would be fine.

[enanidah]

New to active posting on the site although been a member for years so hello all first!

When I was looking at the new D&D Birthright was the first thing I looked it as it was always my favourite setting and some of the new books were really useful for it.

While I personally prefer Wizards to Sorcerers I thought that making the Elven racial affinity to Sorcerer rather than Wizard made sense as it is an innate talent, which fits in more with the style of sorcery. Unfortuntely you can't just miss out Wizards altogether because Magicians need specialization and that can only be done as a Wizard. The actual Wizard class itself doesn't fit in that well to the setting in my opinion though. I treated basically as a mini Prestige class which required either being an Elf Level One Sorcerer or Regent Level One Sorcerer - basically having to develop the innate talent enough to base the Wizard and it's non intuitive learned skills approach on.

[RaspK_FOG]

Err, quite not got what you mean by Magicians needing specialisation the dropping the Wizard hint...

[Kzintosh]

Hello! Finally getting a hang of these forum things.... :P

Osprey's line of logic is very reasonable (and seems to be confirmed by the developers...always a plus). I see Sorcerors as being a preferred class for the Elves, and possibly Goblins (not to belittle the Goblins their efforts at civilization, but their racial personality seems to better fit them with the Sorceror class, having lesser predilication to study than their human neighbors). This line of logic may be supported by the history of Elf and Goblin...if the Sorceror is the preferred class for Elf, then their ancient Goblin foe would most likely have attempted to imitate their "betters" (in effect, a magic arms race). I also concur that magic-users amongst the Vos, in general, would be a rare thing, with only a few more amongst the Rjurik (who concentrate on Druids and Bards, IMH opinion).

[RaspK_FOG]

Very well put, if I may say so...

[Osprey]

I understand the elf-sorcerer connection and the intuitive/instinctual logic...to me the real question is how much elves value literacy. There's really little room to maneuver around the fact that one of the main distinguishing characteristics of wizards is literacy. Spellbooks, scribing scrolls, formulaic thought...all central wizardly concepts.
In truth, elves as sorcerers makes a great deal of story-driven sense, especially if sorcerers in Cerilia are intuitively attuned to mebhaighal rather than dragon magic as Greyhawk sorcerers are. The chaotic tendencies of elves certainly fits the sorcerer's path quite well...
It also makes sense that a race of immortals would have less need of literacy to preserve history, and as such be a less "litero-centric" culture (I think that's an invented term, hence the quotes). Why bother with books when you can ask a living witness about events from centuries or even millenia ago? Or about any other sort of knowledge for that matter?
On the other hand, it's pretty established that elves do have a written language/alphabet, so there must be some who think it worthwhile to preserve or record knowledge, etc. It's been proposed that elves may very well forget things almost as often as they learn them, being creatures of the moment, so one could imagine how writing could then become important. And thus, we could imagine the evolution of elven wizards who think magic is equally important to be recorded and preserved, lest it be forgotten. Heh heh, imagine the ancient elven sorcerer, feared and respected by most elves and mortals, because they don't realize that he's forgotten most of what he once knew...fishing seems so much more attractive to him these days!

Anyways, just thought I'd post thoughts on both sides of the fence - my ultimate postion is to leave it that elves can choose any arcane spellcasting class as a favored class, with an inclusion that sorcerers and bards are most common amongst the Sidhelien. Their natural talents are for arcane magic - period. It is up to the individual to determine which past best suits them.

-Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

Bot your point... The reason I suggested any other arcane spell-casting class except for magician as a favoured class, however, was intentional: I thing that culturally alone, an elf would never become a magician!

Furthermore, an interesting counter to your point is that magic learned by bards and sorcerers cannot by forgotten! :P

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 1 2003, 03:55 PM
Bot your point... The reason I suggested any other arcane spell-casting class except for magician as a favoured class, however, was intentional: I thing that culturally alone, an elf would never become a magician!

Furthermore, an interesting counter to your point is that magic learned by bards and sorcerers cannot by forgotten! :P
Actually in 3.5 bards ans sorcerers can 'forget' magic they have learned. A bard at 5th level and every 3rd level following (8th, 11th, etc.) and a sorcerer at 4th and every even level following can substitute a previously learned spell with a 'new' one of the same level.

In 2nd ed only humans and goblins could be magicians, but in reality there is no reason that an elf wouldn't be a magician. Magicians favor divination and illusions magics, both of which are very much on the elven 'like' list. IMO any one who could be a wizard would be a wizard instead of a magician, but this is in reality meta-game logic and not an in-game culturally backed opinion. There is nothing really in the elven cultural traits that would indicate they would not choose magician as a class. If you look at it the magician's magic focuses on things that are very applicable to entertainment which is something that is very appropriate to the elven culture.

[Osprey]

In 2nd ed only humans and goblins could be magicians, but in reality there is no reason that an elf wouldn't be a magician. Magicians favor divination and illusions magics, both of which are very much on the elven 'like' list. IMO any one who could be a wizard would be a wizard instead of a magician, but this is in reality meta-game logic and not an in-game culturally backed opinion. There is nothing really in the elven cultural traits that would indicate they would not choose magician as a class. If you look at it the magician's magic focuses on things that are very applicable to entertainment which is something that is very appropriate to the elven culture.


Actually, there could be a very good in-game reason for this: magicians might have been a specifically human offshoot of the elven wizards, hence it gaining the name of "the lesser path." Elves might consider it a petty path fit for charlatans and those who don't understand or cannot grasp true magic. If you throw in cultural arrogance you might have a very good reason why elves wouldn't bother with the magician's path - it's for humans who can't use true magic!

That's one way to go, anyways. If an elf were to follow any path of that sort (especially if we're talking entertainment), it would almost certainly be as a bard.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Dec 2 2003, 08:47 AM

Actually, there could be a very good in-game reason for this: magicians might have been a specifically human offshoot of the elven wizards, hence it gaining the name of "the lesser path." Elves might consider it a petty path fit for charlatans and those who don't understand or cannot grasp true magic. If you throw in cultural arrogance you might have a very good reason why elves wouldn't bother with the magician's path - it's for humans who can't use true magic!

That's one way to go, anyways. If an elf were to follow any path of that sort (especially if we're talking entertainment), it would almost certainly be as a bard.
True, but then there is the connection between Illusion (seeming) and the shadow world and the elves connection with it. It seems to me that since Illusion is one of the elves' favored schools (from BoM) and that wizards were forbidden from specializing in Illusion then it is much more contrary to say that they can't (or wouldn't) be magicians.

I agree that most would not be magicians, but again this is from a meta-gaming perspective.

In 3/3.5 while bards have a pretty good focus of spells that include Illusion and Enchantment (the 2 favored schools of elves), they do not have all of the arcane Illusion spells on their list.

So basically it seems to me to be pretty arbitrary to exclude any arcane casting class from the elves.

The obvious reason that 2nd ed excluded the magician class from all races except humans (and goblins via the monster cards) was because in 2nd the only races that could be wizards at all were humans, elves, half-elves and gnomes (only illusionists). The logic could be seen that in the 'why be a magician when you can be a wizard' (again meta-gaming view point) standpoint since in order to be a wizard a character had to be either blooded or have elven blood.

[RaspK_FOG]

My point concerning the cultural idiosyncracy was exactly that: the idea that elves would honestly thing too lightly, if not even disgustedly, of magicians, finding they have perverted their techne (TEH-hnee, greek word; means both "art" and "crafts"). In any case, you could always be right, and I don't feel the magician should be left, out, but instead should be made equal, even though it would be easier to incorporate as an NPC class (something I am totally against of!).

As for forgetting, I would disagree; it is more like giving away, letting things slip out of your grasp, while forgetting is more like not noticing them do so...

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 3 2003, 10:24 PM

As for forgetting, I would disagree; it is more like giving away, letting things slip out of your grasp, while forgetting is more like not noticing them do so...
I think it can only be considered forgetting. A bard or sorcerer who 'replaces' a known spell with a 'new' one can no longer scribe the 'fogotten spell' since it is no longer on his list of 'known' spells. If it is taken in any other way then it really bypasses the restriction.

But overall I think we are in agreement. Whether or not it is forgotten or not is a matter of interpretation - mechanics wise it is no longer on the caster's known spell list so it functions the same as if he had never known it in the first place.

[Osprey]

With elves, I was talking about forgetting in a different way which is not reflected in the mechanics but was talked about in other discussions here in the forums. That is, forgetting meaning actual loss of spells and even character levels rather than the "you never lose levels except through negative energy drain" mechanic. A different mechanical system would need to be introduced to reflect that kind of forgetfulness, the kind immortals might be prone to.

[Osprey]

True, but then there is the connection between Illusion (seeming) and the shadow world and the elves connection with it. It seems to me that since Illusion is one of the elves' favored schools (from BoM) and that wizards were forbidden from specializing in Illusion then it is much more contrary to say that they can't (or wouldn't) be magicians.

I agree that most would not be magicians, but again this is from a meta-gaming perspective.

In 3/3.5 while bards have a pretty good focus of spells that include Illusion and Enchantment (the 2 favored schools of elves), they do not have all of the arcane Illusion spells on their list.

So basically it seems to me to be pretty arbitrary to exclude any arcane casting class from the elves.

The obvious reason that 2nd ed excluded the magician class from all races except humans (and goblins via the monster cards) was because in 2nd the only races that could be wizards at all were humans, elves, half-elves and gnomes (only illusionists). The logic could be seen that in the 'why be a magician when you can be a wizard' (again meta-gaming view point) standpoint since in order to be a wizard a character had to be either blooded or have elven blood.


I think my point about elves considering the magician a lesser path, and it being a distinctly human invention isn't a meta-gaming viewpoint at all, it's a setting-based one. Your point about elves not being able to specialize in illusion magic is, on the other hand, a rather mechanics-driven reason for why elves would be magicians. I'd much prefer to lift the prohibition on wizards being allowed to specialize in illusion and enchantment.

Even better, a lot of problems might be solved if sorcerers and bards could be specialists, not just wizards - giving them one extra spell per day in their chosen specialty, or knowing one extra spell per level in their specialist field in exchange for being prohibited from other schools - this seems pretty reasonable to me, I just think the 3e creators were scared of sorcerers being too powerful. But I think instead sorcerers got shafted, and the wizard is a mechanically superior class in almost every way except for the sorcerer's ability to be a spell-slinging machine gun.

If I had my way, sorcerers would have a few less spells per day and learn a slightly wider selection of spells per level and thus be more interesting to play. I hate them as PC&#39;s because they&#39;re so darned limited - here&#39;s your very limited choice of spells, but lucky you&#33; You can cast the same few spells over and over&#33; Hurrah&#33; <_< I&#39;m not very impressed - the concept of sorcerers are great, but their lack of flexibility in spells and skills forces them to be rather one-dimensional characters.

The other thing that could be done to make sorcerers more interesting is to give them some Charisma-based class skills, such as Diplomacy and Bluff. Then at least they can be effective social characters and use that CHA ability to good effect, and not be so reliant on those few spells and otherwise sit around twiddling their thumbs and wait for the next situation where their spells might be useful. Pretty boring character class, IMO.

[destowe]

Exactly. I believe in 3.5 SRD sorcerers can now have Diplomacy as a class skill.

This is a home rule but worked very well for sorcerers.

Every time a sorcerer gained a new spell level, he could &#39;upgrade&#39; one spell and replace the lower. If he did not do so at that level, he could not do it later.

Example: A sorcerer knows Summon Monster I. Does not matter if learned at 1st or 3rd sorcerer level.

At 4th level could &#39;upgrade&#39; to Summon Monster II, and change Summon Monster I with something else.

If he waited unitil 5th level to try and &#39;upgrade&#39; it did not work.

Perhaps to limit this make the replacement spell still be in the same school. And make sorcerers only pick one chain at first level. The enduce element chain is logical. A few more would have to be developed.

This makes more of a specialist sorcerer. Maybe a requirement of Spell Focus (X) at 1st level.

Or not. ;)

[RaspK_FOG]

I am working on lots of variant classes for the next campaign I am designing, which will include several changes:

Bards can be of several "colleges", as presented in Song and Silence.
Each college has its own aspect, including both bardic music effects and spell list.
There is the "Heraldic College of Arts and Standards", which pretty much introduces the standard 3.5e bard with a few changes.
There is the "Dark Lament Society", an organisation in which bards specialise in the negative effects the appropriate themes would have on others (reverse spell list when possible [making cure spells into inflict, remove curse into bestow curse, remove disease into contagion, neutralise poison into poison], and changing a bard&#39;s beneficial effects into their harmful counterparts [inspire courage becomes inspire dread with the appropriate penalties to enemies and such]...).
The list goes on...
As for sorcerers, I use a few good thingies, like saying they are considered to have no need of somatic components, yet be unable to cast spells without verbal components (they are unable to take the Silent Spell feat), and must take another feat that reduces (but does not negate) the spell failure chance when defeaned by mouthing it, and allowing one to cast a spell with the same failure chance if he tries to cast the spell in silenced areas.
That&#39;s some of the things I am considering, but the still need some tweeking... @-@

[teloft]

Imortal forgetfullness..

Edit:
This is not sutable for BR
but I like this idee for Sorcerers
But ofcours it dos not go well with
the idee of the land granting you the spell ability
This is on the other hand a funy way to treat spell lists,



something up on some time learnd is always present, but unacsessable.

the imortal can trow consentrasion brake into older memmorys. Then he has acsess to study his own mind. Or his mind of past time.

To make things intresting.

Im thinking the imortal would realy have to clear his mind. thet is to store it and making it unacsessable.

Then now he has to try to acsess his own mind.

creating a new mind.

This migth even result in Aligment chance. New spell list composed partly of old stuff, and newer stuff.

But over all, you lose a lot of what you had. you become rusty at everything you were polised at. and even more, you lose all you memmory. having only glipses of it left. you migth even forget what you were doing or what you were doing it fore. You recive some cind of bardic lore about your own life. sometimse begin unable to remember what was and what was not before your last mind clear.

But ofcours trow a lot of study and mind searching you could pice to gether any information thet you had before. Given thet you have room for it in your active mind. &#33;&#33;

Well, its sound much like a old computer with little hardrive, and you keep copyes of everything you ever done on the computer, and keep it in a file cabinet, and forgot to lable the copys &#33;&#33; So if you like to find something, you acsuly have to start digin in you cabinet, trying difrent copyes until you find the rigth one.

:ph34r:

[RaspK_FOG]

I really don&#39;t like the way some of you are thinking of the elves... The are not supposed to be forgetting: that&#39;s the whole point in their drama all in all, having to live on and see what only they now still remember be "lost in time, like tears in rain"...

P.S.: Any of you remember where that quote came from?

[Athos69]

Blade Runner if I recall...

[Ming I]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 6 2003, 04:27 PM
I really don&#39;t like the way some of you are thinking of the elves... The are not supposed to be forgetting: that&#39;s the whole point in their drama all in all, having to live on and see what only they now still remember be "lost in time, like tears in rain"...

P.S.: Any of you remember where that quote came from?

I know this isn&#39;t a trivia board but:

"I&#39;ve seen things you people wouldn&#39;t believe
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched sea beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time
Like tears in rain."

-- Rutger Hauer, as Roy, in Blade Runner (1982)

[Green Knight]

BoP is one of the very best additions to the BR game. Along the the region books and the BoM it makes up the core of the BR rules.



Its major feature is a thorough listing of the gods and their churches. The other major piece is the part about various ceremonies of investiture.



It also contains tips for playing priest regents, and there is the usual stuff about magic items, spells etc.



Cheers

Bjørn



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

[RaspK_FOG]

:huh: How did this all come up? No offence meant...