Ship As Army

[Arius Vistoon]

Why mechanism of ship is different that army ?

In mechanism of army, regent can choose trainer/experience of army, armor of army and so on...
unfortunalitely, in ship, ther are no of these possibilities.

If anybody is interesting for i look these rules, i can do that.
( but my english is very pityful )

[Osprey]

If you can find my thread on Wondrous Structures in hte Royal Library (about 1-2 months old now), I posted stats for a Naval Academy that would allow for the advancesa to create such things, based on the assumption that Cerilian shipbuilding, by default, was pretty uninventive and stagnant, and thus would require something like the (large) investment into a NAval Academy to advance the naval sciences.

-Osprey

[Arius Vistoon]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 21 2003, 08:56 PM
If you can find my thread on Wondrous Structures in hte Royal Library (about 1-2 months old now), I posted stats for a Naval Academy that would allow for the advancesa to create such things, based on the assumption that Cerilian shipbuilding, by default, was pretty uninventive and stagnant, and thus would require something like the (large) investment into a NAval Academy to advance the naval sciences.

-Osprey
Yes, i'm interresting.
I have searched this but i don't find that.
if you are a copy of that, i'm interesting

[Arius Vistoon]

experimentally
i propose this draft :
http://maquette.sailing-up.com/z_topai/01.gif

[teloft]

I been thinking thet one unit of ship is not one ship but a unit of ships, therefore you no longer need to fit 3 army units with horses on one small rafting boat. But insted you have many rafting boats. :) Fleet manuvering insted of ship sailing.

any comments on this thougth.


the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps costline restricting manuvering.

a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.

ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump into the sea if thay can swim to land.

you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training them to use the ram.


Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days / weeks are wery hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill hapen. and therefore thay are not as good in war / shallow waters or in costal manuvering. cost lotes of movement to turn (for thets the idee if you wana cross long distences)

I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege and craft.

there are 2 cinds of missile weapons on ships. normal arrow fierd from a bow. and then normal sige weapons mounted on the boat. the normal sige weapons follow any sige rules. exept for begin mounted on a ship.

then any ship is considerd a floating fortress.



the dragons of the vikings had a special qualety reacently begin discoverd.
the part in fron of the ship maid bubles in the ocean, making it so much softer, and the water siply gives way for the ship before it arives, in a count in perhaps 2" .. This technology is now begin re-developed for fast submarine going, traveling underwater in a air boble.

The result begin thet the force of the water redusing the speed of the ship is su much less. alowing the ship to go so much faster.

when the large frigates were build, and loaded with cannons, thay no longer had this knowlege. and if thay did, it would have been hell to iplement it in such a large ship.

[geeman]

At 10:29 PM 11/27/2003 +0100, teloft wrote:



> I been thinking thet one unit of ship is not one ship but a unit of

> ships, therefore you no longer need to fit 3 army units with horses on

> one small rafting boat. But insted you have many rafting boats.

> :) Fleet manuvering insted of ship sailing.

>

> any comments on this thougth.



That`s the way I`ve been going. One "unit" equals whatever has a value at

the "battle" level of play. To illustrate the progression there is the

standard encounter/adventure level of play in which a "unit" is an

individual character/creature. The skirmish level at which units are an

amalgamation of individuals (eight CR 1 characters can be combined to

create the equivalent of a single CR 4 unit with appropriate size, hit

point, BAB increases, etc.) While a "unit" at the battle level is

approximately 50 soldiers, who together equate to a single "hit" of a

"company" at what is in BR the warcard level of combat.



> the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps

> costline restricting manuvering.



Generally I think this is just a matter of terrain with various effects at

the company level needed to deal with the terrain. Units with "marine"

training/equipment (like vikings, Muden marines or something similar) can

operate at a penalty in shallow water while others would lose

attacks. Those with "ship troop/boarder" training might have small rafts

or otherwise be trained at shipboarding tactics (swinging from lines, using

a corvis, swimming with knives in their teeth, etc.) might have a similar

penalty in deep water, but that is better than other units that are unable

to attack or even traverse that type of "terrain."



> a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.



Companies need facing IMO at the "warcard" level. In fact, I`m starting to

lean towards using facing at the adventure level too, though I`ve not had a

chance to work this out yet.



> ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

>

> if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and

> figthingunits will jump into the sea if thay can swim to land.

>

> you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training

> them to use the ram.



So the "ship" is the ship and its crew, right? As a separate entity from

troops carried on it.



> Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days

> / weeks are wery hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill

> hapen. and therefore thay are not as good in war / shallow waters or in

> costal manuvering. cost lotes of movement to turn (for thets the idee if

> you wana cross long distences)



When it comes to the specifics movement for ships the guy whose done the

best job I`ve seen is the Septentrionalis D20 setting. Definitely worth a

look.



> I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

>

> So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege

> and craft.



I think it warrants its own skill. Profession, Shipbuilder. A person with

that skill can plan the ship (come up with a blueprint) and act as foreman

for the dozens of craftsmen needed to build a ship ranging from carpenters

to blacksmiths, people to do the rigging to those who weave and repair sails.



> there are 2 cinds of missile weapons on ships. normal arrow fierd from a

> bow. and then normal sige weapons mounted on the boat. the normal sige

> weapons follow any sige rules. exept for begin mounted on a ship.

>

> then any ship is considerd a floating fortress.



Any particular ideas on how much like a fortress it is? Does it give

defensive bonuses to units on it? Do attackers have to "reduce" the ship`s

defensive like a castle?



> the dragons of the vikings had a special qualety reacently begin discoverd.

> the part in fron of the ship maid bubles in the ocean, making it so much

> softer, and the water siply gives way for the ship before it arives, in a

> count in perhaps 2" .. This technology is now begin re-developed

> for fast submarine going, traveling underwater in a air boble.



Interesting. Do you have references that I could check out?



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

teloft schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2107

>

> teloft wrote:

...

> the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps costline restricting

manuvering.



Definitely coastline. As there are rivergoing ships there can be

shipbattles in rivers - effectively coastline on both sides, and perhaps

even only 1 line of deep water in the middle and only shallow water at

the sides ;-)



Which means that army units at the beach/besides the river could also

take part in a ship battle very close to land...





> a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.



The "facing" of the ship needs not only to be valued for the direction

in which it is going and perhaps how far it can turn around but also

where the weapons are aimed.



For a cannon-armed ship it is clear that the cannons are concentrated to

the left and right of the ship and that to the front and aft perhaps

only one small cannon is ready to fire, if any. But where are the

weapons of a non-cannon-ship able to fire?





> ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

> > if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump

into the sea if thay can swim to land.



Mmmh, I don´t know how much truth this has, but there is a saying that

in old times they prefered men who could not swim for the navy as they

would defend their ship to the last men... ;-)



And from some historical novels I always remember that even the ships of

the royal british navy had large numbers of crew "pressed" into service,

"shanghait" (whatever that means in english, it is used in german for

men who are for example made drunk in a tavern and then awake on board

of a ship on sea where they are part of the crew for the next years...).



Those men should not have a morale to fight at all, but if they can´t

swim? In D&D terms how many Commoners/Experts on ships would have ranks

in swim - especially if most of them might not have intended to serve on

a ship at all?





> you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training them to use the ram.



Rams with sailing ships make only sense if they also have oars of

sufficient number to back them up from the crash before they go down

with the other ship - I do not think it possible that a pure sailing

ship can maneuver into one direction real fast to ram another ship and

then quickly go in the opposite direction to prevent being locked into

the other ship and sink themselves.





> Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days / weeks are wery

hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill hapen. and

therefore thay are not as

good in war / shallow waters or in costal manuvering. cost lotes of

movement to turn (for thets

the idee if you wana cross long distences)



A small shallow riverboat is certainly likelier to turn faster than a

very big warship with a deep keel - but on the ocan the small

fastturning riverboat might be overturned by some higher waves alone and

sink without even seeing combat.



> I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

> So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege and craft.



Do not forget roleplaying over the rules - how many, many years did it

take before the spanish copied the clearly more maneuverable ships of

the english fleet and their privateers and ceased to use big fat

unmaneuverable galleons? There is more than "bring me one Khinasi

shipbuilder, from now on we build the same ships and become a naval

empire..."

bye

Michael

[lord_arioch]

This is exactly what I wanted to get at. A modification of the ships and the rules that govern ships abilities.
I like the step building process (eg. decide size, then Tech, then merchantman or man-o-war. Then add other features.
Some of the ships stats have to be explained though.
The BRCS playtest has a Mv and a sail stat for ships. Whats the difference? The MC and seaworthiness stats are gone, I think they should be brought back.
So the stats would be:
Class, region, seaworthiness, cargo, bunks, melee, missle, Def, Hits, MC, Spd and Cost.

[kgauck]

Look at the rules for ships in AEG`s Swashbucklers. Ships have levels and

feats, though they can`t gain experience, it effects the cost of the ship at

construction, though they could be refit. Take the rjurik longship.



Base Cost 15,000 gp

Cost per additional level 1,500 gp

Length 60 ft

Width 15 ft

Draft 1

Masts: 1 (30 hp)

Oars: 60

Movement rate: 3

Cargo: 3 tons

Rudder: 1, 2 with sail

Crew: 70

Armor Class 12

Hull Hardness: 5

Hit Points: 900

Starting Feats: Oars



Lets say this is a raiding ship. I could pay 4,500 gp to add an extra mast

(speed increases to 4), install a wide rudder (reducing then number of hexes

I must traverse between turns by -1 to 0), and design it with a slight draft

(reducing my draft rating to 0, so I can beach her). Each of these is a

ship`s feat, this is a level three ship.



Alternatly, I mught come into contact with a longship designed for war.

Also a level 3 warship, it might have masterful construction (+10% more

hitpoints), extra crew (+10% more men), and an extended keel (+1 to draft,

and +2 to all saves made against capsizing).



The standard ships listed includes rafts, rowboats, barges, longships,

galleys, small merchantmen, large merchantmen, frigates, and ships of the

line. But its easy to design new ships since all the stats are out there to

fiddle with.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[lord_arioch]

That's an interesting ship building system. For D20 and their feat rules it sounds quite plausable.

I did a little modification to Vistoons work. Unfortunately trying to cut and paste doesn&#39;t work well. <_<

I broke down the Class to
Light- under 100 and 100 ton
Moderate - 200 to 400 ton
Heavy- 500 to 600 ton

The next step is Tech level using the three proposed by Vistoon (poor, avge and advanced)

Then the Ships purpose
Merchantman or Man o war.

Once I learn how to paste properly I&#39;ll list if here for comparison purposes.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Nov 28 2003, 08:51 AM
> ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

> > if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump

into the sea if thay can swim to land.



Mmmh, I don´t know how much truth this has, but there is a saying that

in old times they prefered men who could not swim for the navy as they

would defend their ship to the last men... ;-)



And from some historical novels I always remember that even the ships of

the royal british navy had large numbers of crew "pressed" into service,

"shanghait" (whatever that means in english, it is used in german for

men who are for example made drunk in a tavern and then awake on board

of a ship on sea where they are part of the crew for the next years...).



Those men should not have a morale to fight at all, but if they can´t

swim? In D&D terms how many Commoners/Experts on ships would have ranks

in swim - especially if most of them might not have intended to serve on

a ship at all?





Michael


I don&#39;t know if you are making a statement that sailors need to have ranks in swim (a skill which can be used untrained by the way) or not but let me share a secret with you - there are many US Navy Sailors that don&#39;t know how to swim. It is not in their basic training requirements.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 12:45 PM



> I don`t know if you are making a statement that sailors need to have

> ranks in swim (a skill which can be used untrained by the way) or not

> but let me share a secret with you - there are many US Navy Sailors

> that don`t know how to swim. It is not in their basic training

requirements.



It is a generalization that historically sailors did not know how to swim.

Swimming was an exotic skill and most people would not know how. From a

character creation point of view, people always had better things to do with

their skill slots than buy swim. Most people hope they can get away with

using the skill untrained.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Anakin_Miller]

> > but let me share a secret with you - there are many US Navy Sailors

> > that don`t know how to swim. It is not in their basic training

> requirements.



Speaking as an ex-squid myself you are totally and utterly wrong. While you

don`t have to be an expert swimmer by any means, Smurfs have to learn how to

swim in basic training. Part of the requirements of Battle Stations (the

final wargame type thing that is done in basic) is jumping into the from the

high dive, inflating the rafts and swimming to the inflated life rafts. If

you can`t swim you ain`t gonna make it. If you don`t pass battle stations

you don`t get your Navy Cap and you don`t leave Greak Mistakes (NRC Great

Lakes) At least thats how it was when I went through basic in `99.



But this is a modern military, I don`t believe that the midevil navies

required the same level of training for recruits.



-Anakin Miller

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Anakin_Miller@Nov 30 2003, 09:13 PM
> > but let me share a secret with you - there are many US Navy Sailors

> > that don`t know how to swim. It is not in their basic training

> requirements.



Speaking as an ex-squid myself you are totally and utterly wrong. While you

don`t have to be an expert swimmer by any means, Smurfs have to learn how to

swim in basic training. Part of the requirements of Battle Stations (the

final wargame type thing that is done in basic) is jumping into the from the

high dive, inflating the rafts and swimming to the inflated life rafts. If

you can`t swim you ain`t gonna make it. If you don`t pass battle stations

you don`t get your Navy Cap and you don`t leave Greak Mistakes (NRC Great

Lakes) At least thats how it was when I went through basic in `99.



But this is a modern military, I don`t believe that the midevil navies

required the same level of training for recruits.



-Anakin Miller













Well let&#39;s see now, my father-in-law was a submariner and couldn&#39;t swim as well as several other submariners I have worked with over the past 20 years at the navy yard. So, while I might be wrong on the basic-training stuff the fact is true that "not all sailors can swim" and I stick to that. Maybe they just don&#39;t consider floating and dog paddling actually swimming though.

[lord_arioch]

hull size
Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile
less 100 8 0 0 0 0
Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
8 1 0 0.5 A

Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile
100 8 0 1 0 0
Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
10 1 +2 1 B
Moderate

200 6 1 2 0 0 12 2 +2 2 C
300 6 1 3 0 0 12 2 +2 3 C
400 6 2 4 0 0 12 2 +2 4 C
Heavy
500 4 2 5 0 0 14 3 +4 5 D
600 4 3 6 0 0 14 4 +4 6 D


TECH
Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
Poor 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -2 0 -1
Avge. 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Adv. 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 +2 x1.5 +1


Ship Purpose:
Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
War +4 0 0 +2 +2 +2 0 0 x1.66 -1
Trade +2 0 0 0 0 0 0 +2 x1.33 0

Hope people can understand what I came up with. I&#39;m not a com expert hence the reason for my chart coming out weird.

EG. under ship purpose- War- The sail # is +4 and the Def number is +2. The next column shows 0 bunk and 0 hits modifier, etc.

The ship is designed in steps, first pich hull size, then Tech then purpose.

You will note that the lists show 0 for missle and Melee values. I&#39;m undecided as to whether ships should have to purchase marines or weapons to have these values changed.

thoughts?

I have not completed my list of "Standard" ship designs for comparison. :D

[lord_arioch]

Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
War +4 0 0 +2 +2 +2 0 0 x1.66 -1
Trade +2 0 0 0 0 0 0 +2 x1.33 0

Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
Poor 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -2 0 -1
Avge. 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Adv. 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 +2 x1.5 +1

Sail Bunks Cargo Melee Missile Def Hits Seaw Cost MC
War +4 0 0 +2 +2 +2 0 0 x1.66 -1
Trade +2 0 0 0 0 0 0 +2 x1.33 0


Test.

That didn&#39;t improve things much. <_<

[teloft]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Nov 30 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Nov 30 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--ConjurerDragon@Nov 28 2003, 08:51 AM
> ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.
> > if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump
into the sea if thay can swim to land.

Mmmh, I don´t know how much truth this has, but there is a saying that
in old times they prefered men who could not swim for the navy as they
would defend their ship to the last men... ;-)

And from some historical novels I always remember that even the ships of
the royal british navy had large numbers of crew "pressed" into service,
"shanghait" (whatever that means in english, it is used in german for
men who are for example made drunk in a tavern and then awake on board
of a ship on sea where they are part of the crew for the next years...).

Those men should not have a morale to fight at all, but if they can´t
swim? In D&D terms how many Commoners/Experts on ships would have ranks
in swim - especially if most of them might not have intended to serve on

a ship at all?


Michael


I don&#39;t know if you are making a statement that sailors need to have ranks in swim (a skill which can be used untrained by the way) or not but let me share a secret with you - there are many US Navy Sailors that don&#39;t know how to swim. It is not in their basic training requirements.[/b][/quote]
Swimming is something of region feats.

Like every living soal in iceland have had swimming training.
The swimm training is mandatory and starts at age 8. and finis at age 20 So every Man and woman in Iceland has had 12 years of swimming training. Well, not all, but most. You can stop your swimming training at age 16.

The viking thet settled Iceland had good Swimming skills.

But to note as well, the ocean in around iceland is far to cold to swimm in, you can not live for no more then few minits in thees cold waters.

This national Swimming skill is rational for the nations ecconomy is based on the fising industry. and has don so since the year 1000 AD


I would say thet only old fising comunitys around the costline and by large rivers or laces would have hig swimming skill, So if you use thees people to mane the ships, thay migth swimm away, cos tay can, and probebly will :)
So all thet is left of sailers thet dont realy want to be sailers are thows thet cant swimm.

So this sould be leadership based. and based on where the unit is musterd.

Skills are easely lost if new generations are not able to learn and use skills of generations thet came before. Like here in Iceland there were No trees, so the people forgot how to build ships in 3 generations.

[teloft]

I have a new Idee if you like to have many difrent options of ships. it is feats thet you can aply to a basic stats.

knerr / Cargo carrier
Manuvering: bad
seaworthiness: good

longship / Warship
Manuvering: good
seaworthiness: bad

Now you add feats to the ship.

list of feats
-platforms for archers
-More rowers
-Closed Deck
-Rased banks
-Shelded banks
-Second stear
-Centerd stear
-Triangle Sail
-Square sail
-Top sail
-Front Triangle sail

-Streamlined hull
-Advanced streamlined hull

-Platform for Catapult
-(large rock amonition)
-(Greek Fire amonition)

-and more feats.

____

awailability of feats is based on the knowlege of the shipbuilders.
there is a base knowlege skill
Know Shipbuilding
Then one needs to spend a rank for each feat.
but the feats needs to be leard of somone with the feat
(Thees are knowlege feats, and not character feats.)
Each feat has a base skill you need to have in ship building
order to learn the feat.
Some feats may also have a base skill is other skills thet you need to have in order to learn the feat

The cost of the ship will be
(Base cost + cost of feats)*size


Demo Feat:


triangle sail
you need:
shipbuilding 15
cost of feat: 1000 Gp

the triangle sail alows ships to manipulate sidewinds and are therefore able to manuver much better along the coastline, and in battle. But thay do not fully use the force of winds going your way. This was a tecnology advancement in the mediterian, when the arabs started to sail there with the rase of the muslim empires. The triangle sails are fyrst known to be used in chinees waters.


This will alow the construction of many difrent typse of ships. But I recoment thet only 3 or 4 types would be fealded by each army. perhaps giving a penalty to warcraft for every type of ship in army. making it easyer to use straticy with sipler options.

Training and experience dos not chance the type of ships.


Now in order to gain benifits from a new feat thet you did not erlyer have acsess to, you would need to train your people in using it, and thay would also need experience with it. also you need to train skilled shipbuilders and administrators with acsess to thet feat. This is wery expensive. and many ply trade actions spent in teaching and training before even one prototype can be build. The extra cost of prototyping is handled by the ply trade actions you need to buy/support by thows with the knowhow.


How do you like thees idees.

:ph34r:

[lord_arioch]

I guess when we talk of changing the ship rules for Birthright we should first establish what we are trying to achieve in the end.

The changes can be broken down into two areas;

Ships statistics- this deals with the seaworthiness, hull points, melee, def, MC, cost, etc. The ships statistics in the BRCS are vague and I don&#39;t understand them. The maneuver class stat is missing and I think it is an important part of a ships description. The speed in which a ship can turn around is critical when it comes to ship to ship battles.

Ship Battle rules- The rules in AD&D rules were usable. the suggestion by someone (sorry I don&#39;t remember who) to use hex graph for ship movements I think is a good one and should be used.

So for the first part - Ship statistics.

SAIL SPEED - the speed of the ship under full sail. (If the ship is also propelled by oars its row speed would be listed here)
MC- the rating for a ship to turn.
SEAWORTHINESS- the ability of a ship to weather heavy seas.
BUNKS- the number of companies that can be transported.
CARGO- the tonnage of a ship devoted to cargo.
HITS- the number of hits a ship can take before sinking.
DEFENCE- the rating of a ships hull to resist damage.
MELEE- the attack rating of the ships crew to fight a boarding action.
MISSILE- the attack rating of the artillery on a ship.
COST- the amount it costs to buy the ship (in GBs).

If we can get a concensus to the above stats of if there are other stats that should be included please speak up.
B)

[teloft]

I can only think of one statt thet you dint mention,
but now I have figured out thet it can be represented by 2 other stats.

ships with higer seworthyness tend to have lower manuverability.


and thets the main difrence betvine war ships and trade ships.

[kgauck]

I saw that AEG`s Swashbuckler`s setting has an additional book out on ships.

I suspect no d20 setting will do ships as well as a setting based on pirates

and sailors.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[lord_arioch]

Hmm, I&#39;ve never heard of AEG. I&#39;ll agree with you though, considering Birthright is set up to resolve land and naval conflicts quickly.

Just for everyones info I didn&#39;t want to try and "re-invent the wheel" when it came to ship design and rules. I thought that with a little brainstorming and modification to the designs and rules we could make naval actions more appealing.

Teloft, I agree, high seaworthiness means less MC and there be a difference between tradesmen and man-o-wars&#39;.

This would probably lead to the Roundship not being the queen of the sea.

[destowe]

Would bunks be included under cargo?

I always thought that the troops were kept in the hold and that took away much cargo space.

Or if kept seperate it could have a large bunk and low cargo, or the opposite. That kept the galleon from holding 3 companies of archers and 6 GB of troops. If the unit of irregulars was used from the crew it became very powerful.

[lord_arioch]

My understanding of the 2nd ed or ad&d rules were that a ship can carry troops and cargo (eg. a galleon can carry 3 units of troops and 6 GB of cargo).
Personally I find it a little hard to believe that packing 600 soldiers onto a ship would not effect its cargo capacity. I thnik if one wants to pack their ship with units of troops (marines, archers, etc) that their cargo capacity be affected.

For BRCS the term bunks means the number of units that can be carried or transported.

So for example. If I had a roundship, I could carry 5 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers. (use 2 GB per unit except for cavalry who use 4 GB); therefore, I can carry 1 unit of soldiers and 3 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers and 1 GB of cargo.
For a galleon, 3 units of soldiers and no cargo, 2 units and 2 GB of cargo or 1 unit and 4 GB of cargo.

[ConjurerDragon]

lord_arioch schrieb:

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>

> lord_arioch wrote:

> My understanding of the 2nd ed or ad&d rules were that a ship can carry troops and

cargo (eg. a galleon can carry 3 units of troops and 6 GB of cargo).

> Personally I find it a little hard to believe that packing 600 soldiers onto a ship would

not effect its cargo capacity. I thnik if one wants to pack their ship

with units of troops

(marines, archers, etc) that their cargo capacity be affected.

> For BRCS the term bunks means the number of units that can be carried or transported.

> > So for example. If I had a roundship, I could carry 5 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers.

(use 2 GB per unit except for cavalry who use 4 GB); therefore, I can

carry 1 unit of soldiers

and 3 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers and 1 GB of cargo.

> For a galleon, 3 units of soldiers and no cargo, 2 units and 2 GB of cargo or 1 unit and 4 GB

of cargo.



I still think that troop and cargo capacity should be separated.

e.g. 2E values from the Seas of Cerilia: Galleon max 3 units of soldiers

(mounted units counted as two units) and cargo capacity of 6 GB



While the Galleon could transport 3 units of soldiers from A to B with

the "Move troops by sea" action, it did not say that it could do the

same for goods. The 6 GB capacity can be transported if the ship runs on

a traderoute a whole domain turn of 3 months, not just once with one

load worth 6 GB.



Most ships are also much faster than that they could only move once

between the start and end of a trade route (30 maritime ares in one

month even if used for a trade route and even faster if not used for a

trade route) and having to assign a ship for the whole of 3 month to a

trade route can only mean that the ships goes back and forth several

times and should be asssumed to be loaded to capacity each time (which

merchant would sail with only a half load if he can avoid it?).



That would make no sense if the ship can carry the whole stuff of 6 GB

at one time, but only if the ships carries much, much more and the

PROFIT of running 3 month between 2 points is 6 GB. The profit of 6 GB

of running goods between 2 points will however be much less than the

actual value of the goods (except if the merchant who runs the trade

route makes 100% profit).



So even in 2E rules a ship could not transport its maximum troop AND

cargo capacity AT ONCE - the cargo capacity could be moved only if

running 3 month on a trade route, and assuming that once in those 3

month the ships carries troops instead of cargo would not disturb the

trade runs so much as that another rule is needed.

bye

Michael

[lord_arioch]

Interesting point. Perhaps I have misinterpreted the ship descriptions in the Naval Battle Rules Accessory. (eg. under the descripton for a roundship is says "Suited for trade or war, roundships can carry two units of troops AND 5 GB of cargo").

Your point though still begs the question, What is the cargo capacity of a roundship?

For some reason (perhaps I&#39;ve read it somewhere) I equate 1 GB of cargo to 100 tons leading to a roundship being a 500 ton ship. This may sound large but in the Glory days of Spain they had galleons of 1000 tons or more.

One of the methods used (in the old days) to determine a ships tonnage was to take the length x the greatest width x half the greatest width then divide by 94.

therefore a 80&#39; long ship that was 35&#39; wide would be a 521 ton ship (80x35=2800x17.5=49000 divided by 94= 521 tons. This would be a roundship.

A caravel would be perhaps 70&#39; long by 28&#39; wide would be 292 tons. That&#39;s not very big.

Based on my above math (please check it to make sure its right :D ) I think a roundship can carry 5 GB (500 ton) of cargo at once.

[irdeggman]

lord_arioch is correct in the 2nd ed rules it states that most ships (Xebec is an exception) can carry their max troop capacity and their max cargo capacity at once. (See Cities in the Sun)

ConjurerDragon is also correct in the fact that a ship can&#39;t do anything other than move actions when used in a trade route.

I think one of the problems here is is trying to define GB capacity in terms of tonnage. In 2nd ed a GB had a vague meaning . It didn&#39;t necessarily translate into a set quantity of anything. It was basically dependent on the trade value of goods at the time and between the cultures in the trade route. A trader would typically load up on the items that would have the highest exchange rate with were he was going. So a cargo hold full of wheat would have less value in Anuire than it would in Khinasi. This does cause logic test problems though and I understand the problems with visualizing what is going on. I think I would assume that the cargo capacity probably has less tonnage than logic would dictate since the trade is assumed to encompass the things I mentioned earlier.

In our house rules we used an either or rule for trade capacity and troops. A ship could either carry it&#39;s max troops or it&#39;s max cargo but not both at the same time. We assumed that some sort of &#39;conversion&#39; of the ship was made to better accomodate the function at the time.

[RaspK_FOG]

One thing about capacity (tonnage):
==========================

You of course know that some ships were best at carrying cargo, while others were equally good at carrying troops. In any case, however, a ship could transfer both.

Now, what matters is that a ship cannot carry its maximum of both kinds at the same time. The reason lies in the fact that according to the type of vessel, the maximum capacity carried varied according to the ships needs. In other words, it would be logical to say that the fewer men you had on board, the more space you also had, and vice versa. On the other hand, you could never have one but not the other (sailors should count as troops, as they were always the ones fighting on board of ships)...

As such, I think it is more logical to assume that ships actually have a balance when it comes to cargo vs. troops: 10% C to 90% T, 25% C to 75% T, 50% C to 50% T, and so on. Or something similar, but you get what I mean.

[teloft]

about cargo and ships.

I remember a port in england where there is lot of foreign stones. the reason:

this was an export harbour. the ships came there and filled there ships with cargo. then thay unloaded there cargo, but then thay had to weighten there ships to be able to sail back. And did so by filling it with rocks.

So I would say thet a ship hasto have a sertain amount of cargo, no mater if it is worthless, in order to max there sea worthyness.

[lord_arioch]

I thought of revamping the whole ship system but decided on amending certain stats.

Units Cost Sail MC Seaw Cargo Bunks Hits Defence
Caravel 6 3 B +6 3 1 2 14
Coaster 2 4 A +5 1 0 1 10
Cog 5 2 C +7 3 1 2 14
Dhoura 4 3 B +6 2 1 2 14
Dhow 2 4 A +4 1 0 1 10
Drakkar 8 1 D(2) +3 1 1 2 14
Galleon 15 3 E +5 6 3 4 16
Galley 8 2 B(2) +2 1 1 2 12
Keelboat 1 2 C(1) 0 1 0 1 8
Knarr 6 2 C(1) +6 2 1 2 14
Longship 3 2 C(2) +4 1 1 1 12
Roundship12 3 E +8 5 2 3 16
Xebec 17 3 B +5 2 2 3 14

I reduced sail speed as a lower number would help with ship to ship combat (eg. Roundship moves 3 spaces).
I did not list the Missile rating or the Boarding rating.

As a Galley is a poor sailor I made its seaworthiness rating only +2. Also it cannot carry much cargo, low cargo.

The Xebec is now a very maneuverable ship compared to the galleon and roundship.


Hopefully my chart is readable this time. :)