Magic Items are rare

[Lord Eldred]

Are you severely limiting the number of magic items in your campaign? Why or why not?

[Lord Eldred]

I wonder why no one has any thoughts on this subject. According to the Birthright rules, magic items should be very rare. I think the conversion of this rule does not limit them enough. Especially with the ease of creating magic items that feats allow, I think the 3E causes many problems with this original rule.

[Raesene Andu]

If you are using 3E rules as they are set out in the book, then yes it could cause some problems. I haven't experienced any trouble in the games I'm running at the moment, but if I do then it should be fairly easy to fix, just increase the costs of construction.

The 3E rules (IMO) assume that the character lives in a magic rich world, with a magic shop in every town and components around every corner. Birthright is not like this, towns are lucky if they have a magician, let alone a wizard and there are no magic shops. This would tend to indicate that the costs of creating magical items is significantly increased, perhaps as much as 5 or 10 times more expensive, both in time and gp cost. I will do something like this in my Adurian setting, but I haven't decided what exactly yet.

[blitzmacher]

:P I have had a problem with that either since my players are choosing feats that make them more powerful in combat, but it could be a problem in the future. If it is I'll probably do what Andu said and give the costs a high price hike

[morgramen]

I have all but eliminated magic items. They are still there to be sure, but my players are used to the farmer and his son having +2 daggers hidden under their beds.

When my group first played BR, they searched endlesssly for secret doors in the dungeons and plundered the dead for any treasures. They couldn't seem to grasp the concept that Sedrie Bellamie, the Storm Walker, and the COunt Aglondier, where the ONLY wiozards worth their salt in the entire region.

Looking back on it now, I think I might have over done it a bit. I should have compromised I think, and thrown in more of what they were used to, and then slowly weened them from those concepts of D&D. I fear me now, that they aren't eager to play Birthright, since there is no +5 Holy Avenger awaiting them under the farmers bed...

:(

BTW, I don't use the 3E rules for magic items and treasures. WHile I like the idea that there is some sort of mathmatical structure to determining Challenge Ratings and XP awards, I have always hated the idea that it was the value of the treasure which determined it. It should be the value inherit in the manner of role playing IMO, but then how can you place a number on that???

[Lord Eldred]

Our group had a long drawn out argument where I had to cite pages from the different books about birthright to prove that magic was rare and that the changes made by 3E don't take this into account. One member threatened to walk because of the fact that I wanted to limit it. It is not as though they can't find magic. I just didn't want them cranking it out like they were manufacturing plain old daggers.

We eventually settled on making the costs sky high and chances of failure. It seems to work out alright. We will have to see.

[morgramen]

Pre-rant HURROOOOMPH!

Doesn't anyone just want to PLAY anymore?? It all seems about getting the shiniest, sharpest, most magical sword, and walking around with a stack of bonuses under your arm that would choke a Gorgon.

If I go 200 levels without finding a +1 dagger or a bazllion GPs, then oh well. As long as the FUN continues, who cares how many pluses and freebies!!

It's about the FUN folks, not the math!!!

End rant.

[Lord Eldred]

My feelings exactly. I really want people to use their brains and role playing skills more than magic. I liked birthright because it focused more on politics and role playing yet it still didn't get rid of desire for more.

I agree it is about the fun, not the math.

[Abbess Allessandra]

Our campaign is really fun! Of course, I have the character that trouble just
loves to follow wherever she goes,as with all characters who are sworn to samash
evil and be honorable,and of course the bad guys are always watching.
Changes have taken place and a sense of team has to be built. A United country has to at least appear
to be that way, to your enemies.
I believe we are part way there and have some work to do. The Birthright campaign
allows characters abilities not given to other campaign worlds. That is
the reason why I enjoy playing my character(s)

[Lord Eldred]

My Lady Allessandra,

As usual, you ramble on. Between the lines I read that you like the role playing rather than the gathering of stuff.

[Abbess Allessandra]

As usual M'lord you have figured me out. I cannot fool you!

[Chioran]

It seems to me that very often we press on without scooping up or ferretnig out every bit of treasure to be had. When I was younger and a less mature player, treasure was a large part of what I was all about, but even before I had heard of Birthright I had longed for more and the group I was in began to strive fo more political underpinings. For me this is the part that makes the game as much fun as it still is. That and having a good group of people to play with. I think it is only natural for a less mature player to be focused on treasure and magic items, but on e would hope that as the players mature their longing do so as well.

[Lord Shaene]

Hey Chioron, I can read between the lines too.
Its only natural for the worlds greatest thief to seek out all the treasure and magic that can be found. this doesnt mean im immature, just a good roleplayer :P

But seriously, I like the being able to split our session time between adventure and good role playing politics

[Chioran]

I have seen you pass up mounds of treasure yourself. I was not referring to you when I commented on immature roleplaying.

Hmmm as a matter of fact you are more philanthropist than thief.

[Stalker]

hi, I’m new around here, and planning a new campaign in the continent of Cerilia although I have never played Birthright and don’t own any of the official publications.

Do you think that doubling the market cost, and with it base cost and base price in xp, produce the right “feel” for the birthright world?

I have no previous experience with Birthright and basically Birthright.net has everything I know about the world (I’m using Travis Doom conversion) so any advise would be helpful.

English is not my native language so this may contain errors; please don’t kill me for them.

[Lord Eldred]

Stalker if you are suggesting increasing the cost of making magic items to make the right feel for birthright I would have to say no. (If you are asking something else I have no clue) Even doubling the cost would still make it too easy to create and thus possess a magic item. They should be rare.

[Lord Eldred]

Stalker, within the text of your post there is a bunch of gibberish that makes it hard to understand. The gibberish was not because of your knowledge of english.

I suggest eliminating the 3e rules on creating magic items and using the 2e rules. Only for Birthright! However, you should include the amount of magic that you are comfortable with in your Birthright campaign. All of your ideas will reduce the number of items in the world. It is just how much you want to reduce them by that is importent.

[Leland]

I agree that magic items should be rare. But a DM I play under in Forgotten Realms has done something really interesting that I think has merit. He has a system (I don't know if its in the 3E DMG because I don't have one yet) that permits players to increase the abilities of magic items through the expenditure of experience points. So lets say you find the legendary Bow of Gylvain. Although in Gylvain's hands it may have been a great item, due to his expenditure and link to the item those powers only worked for him. The magic faded and you have to expend experience points in order to increase it. So you could basically have the DM assign powers of the bow and have the players only be able to use them after spending so many experience points. Or if you just find and +1 dagger that may have been an item of some unknown who didn't expend XP. You could make it more powerful by expending your own X.P. So eventually you could get it up to +5 and give it the ablity to detect evil (or some other more powerful effect). It kind of comes from the whole Earthdawn mechanic of weaving threads of your "legend" to an item. I think its a pretty cool idea and would also serve to prevent the "Oh God! Not another +1 sword!" situation from occuring. Because of course a +1 sword, with special attention paid to it, could become an even more potent weapon. Of course the XP cost would have to be almost horrendous to go from +1 to +5, but after enough levels it wouldn't hurt that much. Or as an alternative, perhaps a scion could expend a LOT of RP to boost a magic item's potential. This would go with the whole "the land and the king are one" theme if "the land and the king and his sword are one". Like King Arthur and Excalibur. Only Arthur could pull the sword from the stone. Why? Because it took someone of his DIRECT bloodline. Anyway just some thoughts.

Leland

[Temujin]

I don't see quite the point in raising the cost of magical item creations for characters exponentially. Perhaps doubling cost expenditure, but I wouldn't overdo it. +1 weapons may be somewhat easy to create, but that's it, and truly valuable items require sacrifice. One thing that bothers me somewhat is the time requirement though. I would agree to the 1 week creation process per normal day spent on an item rule. Except maybe for potions; I'm a bit undecided on them. Might have them take 1 week for the potion brewing time, but allow for more than 1 potion of the same type to be brewed in the same batch. I'm rather undecided for the moment.

[Lord Eldred]

I would think potions would be more readily available than other magic items. They are one time deals that are gone after you drink them. They don't seem to through off the balance as much as a +5 vorpal weapon does in a game when everyone else has plain old weapons.

[Stalker]

I agree, potions seem far less harmful, Im keeping them as in the original rules, brewing a potion a day. Scrolls dont seem very harmful either, but I still think they should take longer to make.

[Lord Eldred]

They don't seem to throw the balance off either. Plus if too many scrolls are being pulled out you could always have the bad guys cut the scroll in half while it is being read or knock it out of the hands of the reader or some other thing to cause balance in the campaign.

[Lawgiver]

Again I express my opinion that I'm so glad magic does not abound in the exorbanent levels it does in Forgotten Realms. It sickens me that every thug on the street needs to have a magical item or the PCs free ripped off.

A +1 finely crafted sword easily fetches 1,000 gp in my campaign!

I have changed the rules on finely crafted weapons to be up to a +2 to Hit or damage. Dwarven weapons are automatically a +1 simply due to quality. Elven weapons generally have a +1 to Hit and their Speeed Factor is reduced by 1 or 2.

Other then special weapons & armor, scrolls,wands, staves, rods, the occassional potion, and a few non-exotic items... most of the magical items in my campaign are non-existent. I prefer a focus on a more realistic type fantasy game (oxymoron...). I'm fine with heroism. But its the roleplaying and PC personality that should make the game not eh hack and slash dungeon crawling.

RPG = Role Playing Game
not
HIHMMITGAYDSAC = Hi! I have more magical items than God and you don't stand a chance.

[Raedwald]

Here's an idea for keeping players from cranking out magic. Increase the level for creating magic items to +4 levels.

Examples:

Brew Potion Spell caster level 7+
Forge Ring Spell caster level 16+

Let PC wizards take a metamagic feat instaed of scribe scroll

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Maybe I am dense,but are you guys remembering that there is an xp cost to make magical items??You give up part of yourself to create them.I would think though that if your players make an item,they are not just going to crank 'em out.If it cost me physically to make an item I would most certainly wait to make one worthwhile.I mean what person would spend a couple hundred xp to make a +1 longsword???There are other ways to keep players from becoming "magic item factories".The parts needed are rare and only found in far away places.Making magical arms and armor requires a smith capable of making very high quality items,there wouldn't be but a handful of Master Weaponsmith's in a given region.But you do have to also remember that it is MUCH easier to pick up potions and scrolls than it is to find a +2 dagger,or Gauntlets of Ogre Power.But the finall arbitrator is the DM.

[Lord Shaene]

My thoughts are the cost to make magic weapons as described in the players handbook is too low for the Birthright campaign, also I feel in order to make magic items, its hsould be a long and grueling journey, I.E. it should be hard to acquire the knowledge to create them, then once that is learned it should be just as hard to acquire the components to create the item. so the costs of all this would be much more then stated in the PHB, and then the penalty of losing exp points should still apply but should be more severe according to the magic that is put into it.

[brownie]

You people are forgetting that the prices in the books are for forgoten realms. WE that play in birthright aftera domain turn can purchase alot of items with a good guilder that i normally play. I also do make a good profit thinking i am still out to make money. But when gold bars are kinda thrown around for tribute or army's who says you cant buy a ring or something cheaply. They was we play is that is you want something from the magic list and you say enchantment or device with magical abilities cost you an arm and a leg. If you use the same prices in the DMG then any regent can get a good sword cheaply. If you want something bad enough dont forget the princess of the night She will give you things that you want for a big favor. BUt like i said above about magic itmes when we play you actually talk like you were back then and you are actually your characters. That is why you have to be so quiet on god calls and wish spells. Some DM's are to soft. Have fun an act out your character and think about how strong or week your character is without a magi item. You can always you spells to make them +1-3 for battles using cleric and mage music. Quit bitching about magic itmes and live without them and use more of your skills than relying on something that may work. God for bit you thinkit is a +2 and you piss of your good so he takes of the enchantment.

[Xerath]

There are other ways to keep the creation of new magic items a rare event. 'Only possible when the moon / planets / stars align in the right arrangement' or 'Item quality is of so great importance that it requires the caster hand pick the components (and used within a short time period or maybe even possilby from a far land). Make these the law of the land and you have a land with very few magic items.

Perhaps that is too restricting... Many things can happen during the process of attempting to create a magical item, and many factors could influence the level of sucess, hidden failures, and duration of effect - after all, it is supposed to be about fun.

[Lord Eldred]

I like all of the suggestions in the last couple posts to keep items rare. However, the post by Lawgiver bothers me a bit because the number of +1 and +2 weapons seem to go way up if every elven and dwarven sword gets those bonuses. Maybe I missed something.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
I like all of the suggestions in the last couple posts to keep items rare. However, the post by Lawgiver bothers me a bit because the number of +1 and +2 weapons seem to go way up if every elven and dwarven sword gets those bonuses. Maybe I missed something.

I stated that magic weapons are rare, but that I allowed humans to create finely crafted weapons up to a +2, though these are rare as frog hair. Finding a +1 finely crafted weapon is hard, but a +2 is near impossible.

Not really the elves don't trade with humans, the only way to get elven weapons is by killing the elf. Another limiting factor is the smaller population of elves.

Dwarves trade with humans, but not much and they don't normally part with their armor and weapons. When they do they suck you for every gold piece. Charging 100 gp a weapon means it would cost 20,000 gp or 10 GB to outfit a single unit (+1 to Hit, +1 to Damage). The high cost for the marginal benefit is generally a hefty enough deterent.

[Lord Eldred]

You are assuming your world where Elves don't get along with humans. In mine the humans have saved the Elves on at least one occasion and do tend to get along ok. Although not all elves and humans get along. So it would still limit the number.

[Arlen Blaede]

OK, putting aside, the ratings of magical items I have a question regarding rarity in the Birthright world. Now I haven't actually read any of the fiction so I don't really have a basis to work off of, but just how common are magic items in Cyrilia? Do the regent's all have something special, or do all the magical items seem to be acquired on some quest?

[Lord Eldred]

According to the rules magic weapons are very rare. Magic potions and scrolls are more like uncommon.

[blitzmacher]

Think of Magical weapons and items as something to go on a quest for, or a family heirloom. Not something to be bought or sold. Potions and scrolls on the other hand can be bought and sold, but at a heaftier price than whats in the books.

[Lord Eldred]

Excellent explanation. To go further, regents are more likely to possess heirlooms of great value thus they would be more likely to have a magic item. Just remember that a player with multiple magic items would be very very rare!

[Green Knight]

How do you handle non-permanent items? Are there more of those?

I have a fair number of potions, scrolls and even a few wands IMC. Most are made by the PCs themselves, but once in a while they get to find some or even buy them if they have the right contacts.

[Andy]

i give out very few items. My two PCs are 5th level and they have three magical items, two of which they dont even know are magical, and one they do not fully understand. I play that unless I put a wizard in there who will identify an item, the PCs cant go looking for one without trouble. So my PCs can get legends from sages, assuming they bother to check or the item is legendary. The PC in my campaign with a magical sword had to use it for like three sessions before he figured out that it was +1 and gave him limited ability to comprehend spoken languages. my magical items always have some wierd, sneaky power and I always try to confuse my PCs as to exactly what thier items do.

[Lawgiver]

I like Andy prefer to keep the true nature of magical items a secret. Though I have had only limited success with this. Many times the PCs drive me batty with the obsession over even the most minor of magical items. Since we rarely if ever have a spell caster in the party and wizards are as fine as frog's hair, it should be quite an ordeal... It rarely is though since magical items are generally gifts or recovered treasures of a known purpose.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I did something in a campaign world I created and I think it would work well in BR as well.Part of being able to make a magical item means you have to have the knowledge.In other words you have to find the info.Basically what that means is in 3ED,Item Creation Feats cannot be taken unless the caster in question has found the requisite knowledge.

Another way for items to become maigical is through traumatic events.Say a Ryjuven warrior is fighting to protect his family from a group of marauding gnolls,due to the high emotions and intense energies being crated,his sword becomes a Gnoll'sBane weapon.(just an example)

These are a couple of things I have done in the past,with some modification,that maybe some of you will use.

PS:I do beleive someone suggested the Feats needing knowledge first.Not trying to take credit for your idea,just reiterating it.

[Eric McLuen]

Short time reader, first time poster.

I find the idea of limiting magic items interesting but it does raise some issues for higher level characters. Basically, without magic armor, your AC tops off fairly quickly while the abiliy to hit something goes up continually. For example, a fighter may get his beloved suit of full plate around 4th level and perhaps he has a shield. His AC could be 20 and he can have an attack rating of +10 meaning he can hit himself about half the time. His attack rating will continue to increase but his armor rating basically tops off. Some feats and stat gains can improve it slightly but not to the extent that his attack rating (and number of attacks) increases. This doesn't even take into account spell casters spells getting that much more deadly. Don't get me wrong, I do like the Birthright setting and the limiting of magic. However, it does make the GM be more careful about what he throws at the party. I realize combat isn't everything and pure role playing sessions can be the best, but everybody wants to go kill the 'big nasty' at some point.

[Lord Eldred]

I don't really see the problem with topping out at the AC you have indicated. Your hit points go up as you go up levels to kind of compensate for it. In addition, you just have to be more creative in the way you kill the big nasty so that you don't get killed yourself!

[Green Knight]

Eric has a good point. Still, the rules also assume your character will gain access to two +5 longswords of ultimate death, so i think it kind of evens out :)

In fact, the main area of concern is in CR (if you use them). Monster CRs ARE based on standard DnD magic item levels. Could be a problem (however minor).

[Lawgiver]

We use an optional rule that I developed for AC that is based on the character level.

Th eentire concept of defense in AD&D has problems. The only way for a person to truly defend themselves (without a high DEX) is putting on bulky armor, wasting their attack by parrying or by magical means. What about a skilled fighter with no armor at all? Why should an 18th level fighter wearing no armor have an armor class of 10. Surely in his years of fighting he knows how to defend himself from some attacks. My solution to the problem is allowing characters to develop a natural armor class as they progress in levels.

Progression Rates
CLASS AC adj./per level
Warrior 1/1
Rogue 1/2
Priest 2/3
Wizard 1/4


This AC adjustment only applies when a character is defending themselves from and opponent using a weapon that they are proficient with. For instance, defending against a soldier of the watch with a longsword is feasible, but defending against breath weapons and magic is useless. If the character is using a weapon they are not familiar with the bonus does not take effect either. If the character is wearing armor then the PC uses either their defensive skill or the their armor's AC rating, which ever is lower.
What this means is that if an unarmored 3rd level fighter is in combat with a weapon he is proficient with he has an AC of 8 (2e) or 12 (3e). However, that same fighter were wearing chain mail they would have an AC of 5 (2e) or 15 (3e) (the armor is more protective than the PC's skill).

I feel that this helps close the deficiency gap between character levels and armor. Its not feasible that a 1st level fighter would have a 50/50 chance to hit an unarmored 12th level fighter (AC 10) in combat simply because he has no armor. Surely a skilled 12th level fighter could defend himself better than that from a novice.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

What I have thought of using is Defense Class,which basically represents your ability to dodge blows,but now armor doesn't raise AC,it provides Damage Reduction equal to the "AC" bonus.You cannot use your DC with armor,as the armor restricts your movements.I have given fighters and pallies a special ability in which they can wear armor and still receive their DC.Reason for those two classes is they are the ones most likely to need that ability,as most other classes lose abilities if wearing the heavier armors.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Green Knight

Eric has a good point. Still, the rules also assume your character will gain access to two +5 longswords of ultimate death, so i think it kind of evens out :)

In fact, the main area of concern is in CR (if you use them). Monster CRs ARE based on standard DnD magic item levels. Could be a problem (however minor).

Birthright rules would preclude you from having two +5 swords or at the very least make it so rare that I would think you are cheating if you had 2 +5 swords.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
Short time reader, first time poster.


Have you ever heard of Bob and Tom's "The Mr. Obvious show"? Its a radio skit with the same two characters that Bob and Tom (two big morning radio show hosts) do that is hilarious. A caller calls in with a blatantly obvious problem and Mr. Obvious tries to solve it. Every episode starts with:

Mr. Obvious: "Hello this is the Mr. Obvious Show. Go ahead caller."
Caller: " uh yeah Mr. Obvious... Long time listener, first time caller".

[Lord Eldred]

Somebody has been drinking too much wine and church today :P

[Eric McLuen]

To continue the quote...

Mr. Obvious: "Hello this is the Mr. Obvious Show. Go ahead caller."
Caller: " uh yeah Mr. Obvious... Long time listener, first time caller".[click]

Mr. Obvious: "Hello this is the Mr. Obvious Show. Go ahead caller."
Caller: " uh yeah Mr. Obvious... Long time listener, second time caller".[click]

To answer your question, yes. I prefer Spike Jone's "'Who was it?", "Didn't say", "Who was it?", "Same guy."

[Lord Eldred]

Sounds like who's on first humor.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Somebody has been drinking too much wine and church today :P

How do you drink too much church??? Perhaps it is you who has been dipping in the wine. ;)

[Lord Eldred]

Wine, Beer, Vodka, Church, they are all the same. Right Abbess?

[Chioran]

You left one out Lord El. Fornication. Fornication is also the same as church.

[Eric McLuen]

I am intrigued by the trained defence subject by lawgiver. Rather than have it be an actual progression, it could be a skill/feat for an optional/variable parry similar to power strike. That allows you to decrease your to hit and increase your damage. Instead, allow the option to subtract from to hit and add to armor. I haven't decided if you have multiple attacks, if it should be subtracted from both or just the initial attack - a la 'parry, thrust' (Daffy Duck I believe). This way your higher level fighters would have a higher armor rating. Besides, unless you get a crit, hitting by one is the same as hitting by 12.

[blitzmacher]

There is already a feat that covers this called Expertise. In the book called The Quintessential Fighter which has some different fighting styles, and feats which might help those wanting to up their defense.

[Eric McLuen]

I see it now. Does this really warrant a feat or perhaps a fighter's natural ability?
I can look into the source book. I have looked at some of the 3Ed ones and find them a lot more useful than the 2nd Ed ones that got churned out. Still not worth the cover price though. Then it is TSR, er, WoTC.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Chioran

You left one out Lord El. Fornication. Fornication is also the same as church.

I am telling the Abbess! :P

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred


Orginally posted by Chioran

You left one out Lord El. Fornication. Fornication is also the same as church.

I am telling the Abbess! :P

Oh really and just what is she going to do to me. I am not afraid of her, only her preaching. Lord can that woman go on.

[Kappenkriaucheran]

I prefer the low-magic setting as described by the BR rulebooks (especially the Book of Priestcraft). However, I think that in some books there is quite an inconsistency in keeping to the low-magic setting. Some low-level NPCs just have too much magic stuff IMO. If I want to play in world where magic is commonplace, I go to the Forgotten Realms.

Btw, I´m still playing 2nd edition AD&D :P . So the only magic items that can be regarded as being common are potions and scrolls. And the really powerful magic items are owned by the really powerful beings (the Lost, awnsheghlien, regents, dragons etc.).

@ Leland: Yes, your DM has adapted some Earthdawn magic rules :) .

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Kappenkriaucheran

I prefer the low-magic setting as described by the BR rulebooks (especially the Book of Priestcraft). However, I think that in some books there is quite an inconsistency in keeping to the low-magic setting. Some low-level NPCs just have too much magic stuff IMO. If I want to play in world where magic is commonplace, I go to the Forgotten Realms.

Btw, I´m still playing 2nd edition AD&D :P . So the only magic items that can be regarded as being common are potions and scrolls. And the really powerful magic items are owned by the really powerful beings (the Lost, awnsheghlien, regents, dragons etc.).

@ Leland: Yes, your DM has adapted some Earthdawn magic rules :) .

I agree about the inconsistency, often as DM I have to take items away from lower level NPCs to keep to the low-magic setting.

My desire to keep to the low-magic setting is alwo why I can't recommend The Black Wizards Keep that is posting on this sites adventure section. It has way too much magic in it for a Birthright setting.

[Ariadne]

In my oppinion magic items shouldn't be restricted, but each item should have a history to explain them.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Ariadne

In my oppinion magic items shouldn't be restricted, but each item should have a history to explain them.

In requiring a unique history wouldn't that reduce the number of magic items and thus restricting them? I agree that each should be a unique item with history. I just don't think there should be thousands of +2 long swords with unique histories.

[Ariadne]

You're right, that there can't be thousands of items with the same abilitiy. But maybe each of these long swords +2 has something unique (may be that one can be only wielded by someone with Andurias bloodline, because it was wielded at Deismaar and became magical there through Anduria's essence). Something like this would explain a majority of items, because for example at Deismaar many items of all kind were wielded/ worn (at Deismaar many items could be created, so you have no thousands of long swords +2, but many long swords +... of any kind).

[Lord Eldred]

SO defacto you agree in limiting magic in Birthright or am I missing something?

[Ariadne]

Defacto yes, I think so...

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Ariadne

Defacto yes, I think so...

;)

[Kappenkriaucheran]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver
I feel that this helps close the deficiency gap between character levels and armor. Its not feasible that a 1st level fighter would have a 50/50 chance to hit an unarmored 12th level fighter (AC 10) in combat simply because he has no armor. Surely a skilled 12th level fighter could defend himself better than that from a novice.


IMO there are ways in AD&D2 to do a workaround. The 12th level fighter in your case has more attacks than his 1st-level opponent, so he designates one of his attacks as a parry (as in the Fighter´s Handbook, with a good chance of success) and finishes the 1st-level fighter off with his remaining attack(s). Alternatively, he can opt for the shield-block (Combat&Tactics) instead.
He can lower his AC without armor though by specializing twice in the One-handed Weapon style and purchasing the class ability Defense Bonus (Skills&Powers). From AC 10 to AC 6, that´s not bad without Dex bonuses.

[soudhadies]

Or the 12th level fighter could just take the hit, which to his hp total would seem like a scratch, and then smoke that arrogant 1st level punk (to whom the same blow is a mortal wound). It ends up working out in the end, especially if you take into account the philosophy behind hit points in 3E which seems to be that characters all have the same absolute hit points, but as they become more powerful they are better able to avoid damage from a blow. I get this from characters healing 3hp per level per day of rest.

[Azrai]

So we have a problem considering the item-creation-feats in the 3. Edition. there it is very easy to create a new magical item.

in my campaign the magical items are strictly limited, but not all of them have their own history.

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-07-23 at 20:30, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

Bearcat wrote:
Or the 12th level fighter could just take the hit, which to his hp total
would seem like a scratch, and then smoke that arrogant 1st level punk
(to whom the same blow is a mortal wound). It ends up working out in the
end, especially if you take into account the philosophy behind hit points
in 3E which seems to be that characters all have the same absolute hit points,
but as they become more powerful they are better able to avoid damage from
a blow. I get this from characters healing 3hp per level per day of
rest.

Bearcat is correct.
2nd Ed confused matters by trying to change the explanation for HP. HP
in 1st Ed were the ability of a character to avoid real damage. All
characters could only take the same amount of actual damage - defined as
the damage you take when your HP are gone (negative HP). A sword through
the guts hurts a 12the level fighter as much as a 1st level punk (well
more because his pride is hurt too). This is one reason why you fight at
maximum capacity until all your HP are gone.

Think of it like this: A hit is always a hit, but not always a wound.
That 1st level punk can hit but not wound the 12th level warrior -- the
reverse is that the 12th level warrior can both hit and wound the punk.

(3e did not address the relativity issue however - but hey give them 20
years and they`ll eventually get around to it)

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[Emerald Greybeard]

I believe that excessive abundance of magical items tends to create characters that have no fear of death and in most cases it gives them such an advantage that the realism is stripped and your left with another Steven Segall grade action flick with a hero that cannot die. You have characters running around killilng everything and no challenge. My character has an enchanted weapon. It was a family hierloom handed down through the generations and is sort of a family symbol. That is teh ONLY magical item she has. That has a distinct history and a reason to be there. She can't just put that away and whip out the +9 ogre slaying knife she found on the goblin she killed a few rooms back! There should be a good valid reason for the item. I think like anything else in the game, balance is the key. Our DM has other ways (most of them pretty interesting) of rewarding players. He always has a few surprises up his sleeve and they are far more entertaining than doling out hordes of items.

[Kappenkriaucheran]

@ Peter Lubke:
As far as I remember the HP explanation in AD&D2 it said something about learning to roll with the blows, coupled with being lucky. But basically I agree with you. There are just several ways to avoid real injuries ;) .