Realm Spells

[RaspK_FOG]

I bought Codex Mysterium for Sovereign Stone and was stunned by a new idea introduced in the book: there are no spell levels, and you could cast even the most powerful spells!


The book, for those of you who have not read it, introduces a magic system I found fascinating (even though I have heard a lot about Ars Magica, "the Art of Magic", and am really interested in reading through that too).

There are no spell levels.
People cast spell by making spallcasting rolls, adding their casting bonus for spells of the element they use.
Each of the four natural elements, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and the unnatural element, Void, have their own classes, which simply puts apart the various bonuses you have for each level in each class.
Over the course of every round, you make a casting roll, adding up both your roll and any bonuses.
There is a small ruling concerning botching (rolling a natural 1 on your casting roll).
You also make a Fortitude save with a varying DC according to your racial affinity with the spell's element, which increases every round after the first by 1.
Failure on the Fort save deals you 1d4 non-lethal (except for Void Mages, read book for more info).
You cast the spell when you reachor go beyond the casting threshold of the spell.
Metamagic spells add to the spell's threshold.

The book also provides with a fomrula to create new spells or transfer old ones from other systems.


I said all of this to make one point: if we used a similar elemental affinity system for the races (earth for halflings [instead of Sovereign Stone's other race], fire for dwarves, air for elves, and water for humans), and changed a lot about it, we could make a new realm spell system that woulc be more interesting and enjoyable than the one already going on, not to mention there would be a real reason for realm spells to need time to cast ( :P )...

[Kzintosh]

That sounds excellent! I have lately chaffed at the spell level concept make traditional by D&D (I understand the inspiration for it, but the times-they-should-be-achangin). That seems to fit the flavor of realm spells, too. I'm not sure about using an elemental flavor...anyone have any other ideas for categories? Still, one could justify it...elementalism does have a strong basis in Birthright...the very giants themselves are of the elements and Elves have a unique affinity for the world.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Nov 30 2003, 09:09 AM
I bought Codex Mysterium for Sovereign Stone and was stunned by a new idea introduced in the book: there are no spell levels, and you could cast even the most powerful spells!


The book, for those of you who have not read it, introduces a magic system I found fascinating (even though I have heard a lot about Ars Magica, "the Art of Magic", and am really interested in reading through that too).

There are no spell levels.
People cast spell by making spallcasting rolls, adding their casting bonus for spells of the element they use.
Each of the four natural elements, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and the unnatural element, Void, have their own classes, which simply puts apart the various bonuses you have for each level in each class.
Over the course of every round, you make a casting roll, adding up both your roll and any bonuses.
There is a small ruling concerning botching (rolling a natural 1 on your casting roll).
You also make a Fortitude save with a varying DC according to your racial affinity with the spell's element, which increases every round after the first by 1.
Failure on the Fort save deals you 1d4 non-lethal (except for Void Mages, read book for more info).
You cast the spell when you reachor go beyond the casting threshold of the spell.
Metamagic spells add to the spell's threshold.

The book also provides with a fomrula to create new spells or transfer old ones from other systems.


I said all of this to make one point: if we used a similar elemental affinity system for the races (earth for halflings [instead of Sovereign Stone's other race], fire for dwarves, air for elves, and water for humans), and changed a lot about it, we could make a new realm spell system that woulc be more interesting and enjoyable than the one already going on, not to mention there would be a real reason for realm spells to need time to cast ( :P )...
While this could be a good idea, it would "force" players to buy other products rather than the core D&D rulebooks in order to fully understand and play the system. Without having read the material, I bet it is not OGL and hence the limits on paraphrasing and direct use are very strict.

This was one of the main reasons we didn't use Epic Levels for the major NPCs, or direct reference to the other WotC books (Sounds and Silence, etc.) it would have forced players to have all of the books in their possesion when the only books that could reasonably be assumed to owned would be the core 3 (PHB, DMG and MM). Other books have only been referenced in ways for optional use like prestige classes.

Now the 3.5 DMG has included quite a lot of Epic information so working up Epic levels for some of the major NPC isn't that far fetched or demanding on the users anymore.

[kgauck]

I use a modified version of the Soverign Stone system. (Modified mostly

because I prefered the standard spell list to the one presented in the

setting for BR play.) Sovereign Stone does include the OGL, but I am not

studied up on the implications thereof.



My modification reads;

Druids channel divine energy in order to cast spells, so they may cast any

spell they know without limitation. Spellasting requires an enormous amount

of concentration. Castingt a spell, works like a skill check. To cast a

spell, make a Concentration skill check with your caster level as a bonus

modifier. The DC to cast every spell is 10 + (8 x the spell level). If the

Concentration check was not higher than the spell DC, this result is applied

as a bonus during the subsequent round of spellcasting. The priest performs

the spell casting roll each round until the final result is higher than the

spell DC. However, spellcasting is difficult and exhausting. For each round

a druid spends channelling divine energy during spellcasting, he must make a

Fortitude save against a DC 10. Each round after the first that the

spellcaster is casting the DC of the Fortitude save increases by 1. If a

caster fails the Fortitude save, they suffer 1d4 points of vitality damage.

Damage suffered as a result of spellcasting does not interupt the casting of

a spell unless it is sufficient to cause unconciousness. Spellcasters can be

forced to make standard Concentration checks as described in the core rules

as well. Spells interupted because the caster falls unconcious or fails a

standard Concentration check fail and cause no effect.



I have restored spell levels only because I am using the standard spell

lists, and knew that assigning each spell its own difficulty DC would take

forever. So I retain level so I can multply it by 8 for a DC. You can cast

any spell you know, regardless of level. Humans are neutral regarding the

four natural elements. The elves are elemental specialists. A sidhe

sorcerer could specialize in any of the four elements.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Nov 30 2003, 02:53 PM

I have restored spell levels only because I am using the standard spell

lists, and knew that assigning each spell its own difficulty DC would take

forever. So I retain level so I can multply it by 8 for a DC. You can cast

any spell you know, regardless of level. Humans are neutral regarding the

four natural elements. The elves are elemental specialists. A sidhe

sorcerer could specialize in any of the four elements.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com


There is also the 'problem' of spells having different 'levels' depending on what class is casting them.

For example:

Wall of Fire Drd 5, Fire 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Tree Shape Drd 2, Rgr 3
True Seeing Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6

[RaspK_FOG]

I thought of this along the day (because I am really interested in substituting the standard spell lists with a the new mechanic :D ), and came up with something like this:

For common spells (non-realm spells), we could throw the elemental thingy to the dust bin, and say that each class has an affinity for a kind of magic (I've been working for ages to balance the spellcasting of various similar classes, like a X-level Druid/Y-level Ranger, who seems entirely illogical why should his spell advancement start ALL OVER ).
These affinities would be an extra to the standard system, like keeping the school and subschools as we see fit (I have changed a bit of it in my campaign, but that's beside the point now), and change the level requirement, like saying for cure spells:
Type: Arcanism (Bard), Nature, Spiritualism
Each class type should have a different Casting bonus advancement (that was the first thing I came up with :D ), like:

Up to 6th-level spells: +1 Casting Bonus per 2 levels
Up to 9th-level spells: +1 Casting Bonus per level
Up to 4th-level spells, excluding 0-level spells: +1 Casting Bonus per (3 or 4?) levels.



As for the OGL, I thing that providing the reference to the original creators of the product is enough, but I could consult someone more specialised in this area of studies...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:04 AM



> There is also the `problem` of spells having different `levels` depending

on

> what class is casting them.



Its not a problem its a virtue. I go farther and bump levels up when I

don`t think the spell "sphere" is central to the god`s portfolio, but does

warrant being included. I rather like the idea that spells are not always

rated as the same difficulty.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[teloft]

On the note of other products, and we not wanting people to feel the need to buy other products exept perhaps the core rule books of D&D

But if we list the rules thet we create then we would not be refering to other product.

well..


I remember some nice magic items and feats. If we keep the base magic list and the way macig is done in D&D.

Then you could be able to cast a higer level spell if you sacrifice something. You time / your presure followers / your son / your GB&#39;s
useing more then one spell caster to cast a spell

and perhaps a combonation of it all.

I remember a artifact thet alowd me to pour blood into it. difrent blood had difrent qualetys. then when I would poure the blood out again it would be a potion of some sort. heal / harm / posion / bulls strength / and more
But the item needed negative energy to be channeld into it. using up one turing slot of a divine caster.

The idee is to make it much easyer for casters to cast beond there own level.

one idee would be to have the caracter make a will save vs
10 + spell lv + caster lv (of spell)
or something bad hapens after the spell is cast.
perhaps insanity / or simple confusion

but if you can cast the spell acording to your lv, you no longer have to make this roll.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by teloft@Dec 2 2003, 03:45 PM
On the note of other products, and we not wanting people to feel the need to buy other products exept perhaps the core rule books of D&D

But if we list the rules thet we create then we would not be refering to other product.

well..


That is where the lines are drawn for OGL and proprietary info. You can reference the info but you cannot reproduce it. Originally the 3.0 D&D requirement was that all products had to use the core 3 books, that was changed over the years as the d20 system evolved. There is now the SRD which gives the specific info from WotC that can be used freely and copied any way desired as well as &#39;other&#39; d20 systems published by WotC.

This site has been given permission to use any of the Birthright info pretty much as we see fit. We have to give proper credit to the source document but we can pretty much cut and paste. Arjan has the specifics on what we can and cannot do.

This broad permission does not apply to other companies&#39; products, etc. This is reflected in the trubulations that Daniel is coming across in trying to incorporate the Cry Havoc system for the war system. I don&#39;t know how far he has gotten, but there are definitely legal issues involved in what he can and cannot do.

When people are creating their own house rules this sort of thing isn&#39;t much of a problem since they are not published for general use and are reserved for individual table tops. Once the line for posting and such has been crossed then the the legal mumbo-jumbo comes into play. Many people on the BRCS d20 development team have &#39;connections&#39; with the publishing business, some have worked (in some capacity) with one or more of the publishers, some have had interface with them and some have &#39;friends&#39; who work for them. By these interfaces we have come across many of the cans and cannots of the OGL licence.

Just because some people don&#39;t like the D&D magic system doesn&#39;t mean that it gets abandoned. This (the BRCS) is supposed to be d20 D&D and not a mishmash of other products put together. When there is something that is not already in the D&D core books then we have been creating new methods to portray this, but Birthright is still a D&D system not Wheel of Time, not D20 Modern, not d20 Star Wars, etc. This is something that needs to be remembered. Any deviation from this ethic is pretty much a publishing of &#39;house rules&#39;, which is something that the &#39;BRCS d20 team&#39; has consistently been checking each other on - "is what we are proposing &#39;house rules&#39; or a standard that is reflected in the D&D core books?"

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:12 PM



> Birthright is still a D&D system not Wheel of Time, not D20

> Modern, not d20 Star Wars, etc. This is something that needs to

> be remembered.



When d20 was being sold to gamers as an idea, one of the selling points

would be that designers would now be free to pick and choose the best ideas

from a variety of sources, thus producing games of higher quality. This

would seperate D&D from d20, making d20 a kind of stew able to add

ingredients from products of all kinds. I have seen this in practice. For

example, the feat Information Network in Penumbra/Atlas product Dynasties

and Demagogues is credited as being based on the Gossip Network feat from

Holistic Design`s Fading Suns D20 rulebook. As time goes on, and more and

more mechanics solutions are solved elegantly, it will become harder and

harder to create a setting which does not draw on prior solutions to common

game problems. Designers will either be forced to constantly re-invent the

wheel, often producing inferior solutions as a result, or combine the best

solutions that have been put out there to make the solid, superior products

that the new d20/OGL system was supposed to provide.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Dec 2 2003, 11:10 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:12 PM



> Birthright is still a D&D system not Wheel of Time, not D20

> Modern, not d20 Star Wars, etc. This is something that needs to

> be remembered.



When d20 was being sold to gamers as an idea, one of the selling points

would be that designers would now be free to pick and choose the best ideas

from a variety of sources, thus producing games of higher quality. This

would seperate D&D from d20, making d20 a kind of stew able to add

ingredients from products of all kinds. I have seen this in practice. For

example, the feat Information Network in Penumbra/Atlas product Dynasties

and Demagogues is credited as being based on the Gossip Network feat from

Holistic Design`s Fading Suns D20 rulebook. As time goes on, and more and

more mechanics solutions are solved elegantly, it will become harder and

harder to create a setting which does not draw on prior solutions to common

game problems. Designers will either be forced to constantly re-invent the

wheel, often producing inferior solutions as a result, or combine the best

solutions that have been put out there to make the solid, superior products

that the new d20/OGL system was supposed to provide.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com













I&#39;m not disagreeing with you, only in the application. D&D is a subset of the broad d20 mechanic. (We&#39;ve had this discussion many times in the past.) The &#39;evolution&#39; of d20 and D&D is pretty evident to those who watched the development of the products and the introduction of the SRD for D&D and d20 Modern. Originally D&D and d20 were the same, but that &#39;definition&#39; changed as the differences between D&D and the basic mechanic developed and WotC figured out where to &#39;draw the line&#39; so that they could still make some money on it without stiffling outside creativity.

Birthright is a D&D setting as much as is Forgotten Realms or the Dark Sun 3. If someone wanted a &#39;best&#39; comparison then the Dark Sun 3 product is the one to use. The folks at Athas.org just posted their 3.5 conversion of Dark Sun (another abandoned campaign setting ). They had a lot more &#39;oversight&#39; from WotC then we&#39;ve had (OK we&#39;ve really had none). It is definitely D&D, they made campaign specific adjustments/changes but it is still D&D. D&D has several things that make it a unique d20 system - specifically the use of armor and its magic system.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Nov 30 2003, 03:09 PM
There are no spell levels.
People cast spell by making spallcasting rolls, adding their casting bonus for spells of the element they use.
Over the course of every round, you make a casting roll, adding up both your roll and any bonuses.
There is a small ruling concerning botching (rolling a natural 1 on your casting roll).
You also make a Fortitude save with a varying DC according to your racial affinity with the spell&#39;s element, which increases every round after the first by 1.
You also make a Fortitude save with a varying DC according to your racial affinity with the spell&#39;s element, which increases every round after the first by 1.
Failure on the Fort save deals you 1d4 non-lethal (except for Void Mages, read book for more info). [/quote]
This would mean, a 10th level spellcaster can misscast a “foolproof” spell. Sounds not very cool, if you ask me... So if the caster roles a 1 and is lucky, he “only” catches 1d4 non-lethal damage and a roaring laughter, hmmmm... If he is less lucky, he is killed by his regent afterwards, because it was the last chance to save the realm :D . Fun to the side: This should occur only (if ever), if a magician tries to cast realm spells.

To say it: I’m not very fond of this system. It’s very similar to a German Roleplay game named DSA, where every spell has to succeed a caster check first, but you can try to cast something like heal at first level (somehow selfdestroying :D ) If you only want to restrict realm spells, better let your DM not giving them out this easily...


I said all of this to make one point: if we used a similar elemental affinity system for the races (earth for halflings [instead of Sovereign Stone&#39;s other race], fire for dwarves, air for elves, and water for humans), and changed a lot about it, we could make a new realm spell system that woulc be more interesting and enjoyable than the one already going on, not to mention there would be a real reason for realm spells to need time to cast

Well, earth for halflings, fire for dwarves? Since dwarves are so familiar with earth I&#39;m of the opinion to switch those two...

[teloft]

Well, earth for halflings, fire for dwarves? Since dwarves are so familiar with earth I&#39;m of the opinion to switch those two...


Well, the halflings are fey, and fay are from the spirit world arnt thay.

Im thinking thet spirit world creature would NOT get a element. exept perhaps &#39;void&#39;

___


it is still D&D to cast a divine spell you cant realy cast, by boosing your caster level, and geting your god&#39;s involvement to alow you to use some hig level spell. But usualy thet would need some quest prior or after the casting.

on the arcane users. to use a spell you normaly cant use. there is the use of scrolls and such. but if you need to learn the spell. I can only say. allay with a higer level caster, and have him scribe you some scrolls in order for you to cast thows spells.

then here is a question. Sould a realm caster be able to cast a spell from a scroll but adjust it to aplay to the realm consuming the scroll/item.

[Eosin the Red]

> irdeggman wrote:

> Birthright is a D&D setting as much as is Forgotten Realms or the

Dark Sun 3. If someone wanted a `best` comparison then the Dark Sun 3

product is the one to use. The folks at Athas.org just posted their 3.5

conversion of Dark Sun (another abandoned campaign setting ). They had a

lot more `oversight` from WotC then we`ve had (OK we`ve really had none).

It is definitely D&D, they made campaign specific adjustments/changes

but it is still D&D. D&D has several things that make it a unique

d20 system - specifically the use of armor and its magic system.



I would disagree with your choice of settings in the example. I think BR is

closer to d20 settings like MIDNIGHT and Wheel of Time. I thought that I had

heard that BR was not allowed for some reason to proceed along those lines

by WotC and if that is the reason - we just have to live with it. If it is

not the case then I am firmly with Kenneth, exploring d20 for viable and

elegant solutions is the way to go.



Birthright is not in the "rules" but the rules can do serious damage to

Birthright and D&D Rules detract rather than add to the setting. Though

others are perfectly happy with D&D as BR, which is fine, some want

something a little closer to what we see as important in the setting, this

is fine also.



Eosin

[geeman]

At 02:39 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Eosin wrote:



>I thought that I had heard that BR was not allowed for some reason to

>proceed along those lines by WotC and if that is the reason - we just have

>to live with it. If it is not the case then I am firmly with Kenneth,

>exploring d20 for viable and elegant solutions is the way to go.

>

>Birthright is not in the "rules" but the rules can do serious damage to

>Birthright and D&D Rules detract rather than add to the setting. Though

>others are perfectly happy with D&D as BR, which is fine, some want

>something a little closer to what we see as important in the setting, this

>is fine also.



At the risk of writing a "me too" post.... Me too. In fact, if I were a

Viking I think I`d have spilled much ale banging my stein on the table and

roaring in agreement. (As it is, I did spill a bit of coffee....) I don`t

want to engage in a little setting by setting comparison, but BR as a D20

product should be IMO as different from D&D as many other D20 products

are. Personally, I think BR should be more distinct from D&D than D&D is

to D20 Modern. That`s not to say BR should look like D20 Modern, but that

there are as many fundamental differences between BR and the "standard" D&D

campaign world as there are between D&D and D20M. In the area of this

particular thread, for instance, we don`t even have a D&D analogy to realm

spells, so 3e/3.5 can really only serve as a reference at best. I don`t

know the nuances of the agreement of the design team folks with WotC, and I

applaud their efforts, whatever those guidelines might be. It`s hard work

to put together a RPG text, especially for something as large as BR, and

even if it`s done with more of an emphasis on 3e`s rules than I think needs

be it`s still an admirable effort.



Having said that, I`d like to encourage as much of what I`m going to call

"conservation of Birthright" in any and all updated

materials. Fundamentally what I mean by that is that the thing that is

important to maintain in any update is not parity with a new rules set, but

maintenance of the setting`s themes, dynamics, characters and

concepts. They are, after all, what makes the setting unique. The

specifics of the 3e rules used to portray various BR themes are,

ultimately, up for debate. It`s pretty common around here for people to

argue that one BR concept or another should be portrayed as a character

class, a template, an ability score, etc. One person joked with me

off-line a week or two ago that in discussing campaign themes we should

have a term to use to express the idea conveyed by a phrase like "insert

game mechanic to be determined later here" so that we can just skip that

stuff in favor of getting to the theme itself. It would certainly

help. (I`ve dubbed it "Rule X" for my purposes.)



And having said _that_ I think it`s also important to note that as

originally conceived Birthright was not even a D&D world. As was pointed

out most recently by Lord Rahvin, I believe, the BR setting was first put

together as something independent of D&D 2e, but was converted into D&D

when TSR picked it up. The original setting`s "campaign notes"

apparently filled hundreds of pages. It is not really a D&D setting at

all. We just saw it first published using that rules set. One of the

nicest advents of D20 is that there is now no need to force things into the

"box" of D&D`s rules alone. D20 is open ended, and allows for much greater

variation. It`s still a box, but it is a much bigger and ever growing

box. It`s not hard to look at some of the themes of BR and see how they

might vary significantly from D&D or even from existing D20 rules. Things

like bloodtheft, the domain rules, the corrupting effects of Azrai`s

bloodline need new and different rules than anything in the existing D20

materials in order to portray them properly, and even issues having to do

with fundamental D&D "systems" like magic, encounter awards, hit points and

character classes themselves should all be up for review as to whether they

should be changed in an update of Birthright to D20.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, people, it seems another one of the threads I&#39;ve started has riled up on its own (actually, it&#39;s your fault&#33; :P Just kidding...). Anyway, I have to make a few points here and there to clear a few things up:

First of all, I quit with elements some posts ago; see?
Furthermore, yes, my ideas were initially based on realm spell level, yet I went on and gave a few helpers for people who might be interested in also using their copies of the book to recreate the original spells, yet had a trick or two to come by...
One of these, the level thingy, had nothing to do with the 3e and 3.5e core D&D books; it was simply a reference to the problem of transferring old spells, which could have different level per spellcaster and stuff...
As long as we don&#39;t "copy and paste" but create something original through inspiration, none will charge us with copyright infrigement. As for the current situation, let me just point out that I like to work on a basis (when I am inspired by something) and change things as I see fit and most important to me. For example, bards and sorcerers in my own campaigns are vastly different from the PHB; the reason I made this thread was both a discussion and a suggestion for a basis of work, not a plagiaristic process.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Eosin the Red@Dec 3 2003, 04:16 PM
I would disagree with your choice of settings in the example. I think BR is

closer to d20 settings like MIDNIGHT and Wheel of Time. I thought that I had

heard that BR was not allowed for some reason to proceed along those lines

by WotC and if that is the reason - we just have to live with it. If it is

not the case then I am firmly with Kenneth, exploring d20 for viable and

elegant solutions is the way to go.





Eosin


Actually the point of my comparision wasn&#39;t the settings themselves but to compare the fact that Dark Sun and Birthright are both &#39;abandoned&#39; 2nd ed settings and that both have had 3/3.5 adaptations being written via the &#39;official fan sites&#39; so the &#39;process&#39; was what I was comparing. Other 2nd ed settings have also had 3 adaptations written but they were by publication companies like WotC and White Wolf to give some examples. It is very difficult to make a comparision between a fan-based activity and one from a publishing company. One is &#39;free&#39; and the other is &#39;for profit&#39; so they fall under different guidelines/restrictions.

Neither Wheel of Time nor Midnight were &#39;abandoned&#39; settings with 3/3.5 adaptations being written - they were essentially written in 3.0 format originally, more or less.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by teloft@Dec 3 2003, 02:45 PM

on the arcane users. to use a spell you normaly cant use. there is the use of scrolls and such. but if you need to learn the spell. I can only say. allay with a higer level caster, and have him scribe you some scrolls in order for you to cast thows spells.

then here is a question. Sould a realm caster be able to cast a spell from a scroll but adjust it to aplay to the realm consuming the scroll/item.
When you say using a spell that you can&#39;t normally cast I assume you mean that you don&#39;t know since in order to cast a spell from a scroll the spell must be on the user&#39;s spell list or he must make a successful use magic device skill check.

As far as Realm Spells and scrolls - well they are not simple conversions of standard spells they are &#39;different&#39;. The proposal in the BRCS has them following the pattern for Epic Spells as far as learning goes. There is a definite limit on the number of Realm Spells a caster can know.

I&#39;d would tend to say that a Realm Spell can&#39;t be cast from a scroll since they require a set amount of time to &#39;get in tune&#39; with the area being affected and to &#39;gather sufficient energy&#39; to cast. I would never allow a caster to cast a Realm Spell that he didn&#39;t know already so the &#39;normal&#39; rules for using scrolls wouldn&#39;t apply or would have to be modified pretty drastically. Realm spells are supposed to be that significant that casters don&#39;t just know them and they are supposed to be of such a power that lesser casters can not use them. That was the main reason for trying to pattern them after the Epic Spells, they just &#39;seemed&#39; to be that level of power.

[RaspK_FOG]

First of all, I would like to point out something: while Birthright is a "low-level" setting, we have to keep in mind that a 20th-level wizard in 2e was a killing machine, and a 20th-level 3e/3.5e wizard somewhat weaker in some aspects compared to earlier versions. So, I think we should all keep in mind that the meaning of the phrase "low level" is a lot different from what it used to be...

Then again, epic levels are... well, epic&#33; A character who has attained such a level is a bit of a munchkin (no offence meant, just a joke, OK?). If we cannot find it easy to allow many high-level characters, yet allow for epic spells to be a standard in this world, it would be a bit of a paradox of its own...

My idea was to reconsider the logic of realm spells: in this manner, they would take even weeks, yet be within more reasonable powers.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 5 2003, 04:44 PM
First of all, I would like to point out something: while Birthright is a "low-level" setting, we have to keep in mind that a 20th-level wizard in 2e was a killing machine, and a 20th-level 3e/3.5e wizard somewhat weaker in some aspects compared to earlier versions. So, I think we should all keep in mind that the meaning of the phrase "low level" is a lot different from what it used to be...

Then again, epic levels are... well, epic&#33; A character who has attained such a level is a bit of a munchkin (no offence meant, just a joke, OK?). If we cannot find it easy to allow many high-level characters, yet allow for epic spells to be a standard in this world, it would be a bit of a paradox of its own...

My idea was to reconsider the logic of realm spells: in this manner, they would take even weeks, yet be within more reasonable powers.
Good points. But generally when we say &#39;low magic&#39; for Birthright most people consider that to mean &#39;low magic items&#39; not necessarily &#39;low magic&#39;. Birthright is generally a very powerfully magic setting, even though the number of characters who can utilize the higher magics are limited.

When I was refering to epic spells as a basis for realm spells - I didn&#39;t mean to infer that epic levels are a requisite just that the relative power level of a realm spell was in pretty close comparision to that of an epic spell hence the similar mechanics. It is up to an individual DM is he/she wishes to using epic level characters. Now, in general characters are limited to 20th level without &#39;becoming epic&#39;. It is always up to an individual DM as to whether or not he applies those rules. But there is no class level progression beyond 20th level without becoming epic in the core rules.

[RaspK_FOG]

Hmm... I see what you mean, but my point was that realm spells had just too many drawbacks to be considered equal to epic in comparison: time and money needed, individual spell research, all of them are much worse for realm spells than epic spells, and the various parameters of the spell affect its total usefulness and "power"; that&#39;s what I meant.

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> When I was refering to epic spells as a basis for realm spells - I

> didn`t mean to infer that epic levels are a requisite just that the

> relative power level of a realm spell was in pretty close comparision to

> that of an epic spell hence the similar mechanics.



Indeed, I had similar thoughts a couple months ago, and tried to use the

epic spell system to create some realm spells, using some eyeballed values

for sources and RP as mitigating factors. Worked great for a couple

spells, like Alchemy, which had a nice DC, reasonable cost, and created

precious metals rather effectively; it worked really crappy for the rest.

Such as Transport, which ended up with a rediculous DC to transport even a

single 200-man unit.



You can use sources/temples and RP as mitigating factors for epic spells,

and I think that would work well, but you can`t use epic spells to

replicate the look and feel of realm spells from 2e.



--

Daniel McSorley