Non-regents

[James Ruhland]

1st response to the below is that it is intended that non-Regents have the
same # of Actions as Regents do (they just don't use them to Rule & Create
Holdings, etc.)
2nd response is the way the rules are set up, realm governance can take as
long, or as short, as you once (turns *can* be done in minutes). Thus, if
you'd like, you can work the actions of Ruling characters into a fully
role-played occasion (and if they are creative, give 'em bonuses to
success; conversly, if they are stupid, that has it's own "reward.")
Then find ways to work the non-Regent players into such actions. Take a
Rule Province action: perhaps the non-regents are given the task of
enticing settlers, or of surveying land to find places for the new
arrivals, or, even better, they have to clear out a hive of scum and
villany (where have I heard that before. . .) before more common folk will
want to settle the land & raise nice, Haelyn-fearing carpet monkeys.
To the greatest possible extent, *no one* should have to spend a lot of
time doing nothing: that includes the other Regents (I.E. while King Shmoe
of Roesone is doing his actions, Count Bung of Endier should have more to
do than just scour the 'fridge for munchies). Find ways to keep everyone
involved in the action as much as possible. Either that, or do the "realm
rulership" stuff more one-on-one, before the whole group gathers (through
E-mail, or during breaks in time at school when you see 'em individually,
or whatever you can work out).
Oh, and as for "non-Regents improving themselves": while the Regents are
improving their lands, the non-Regents can *certainly* be improving
themselves: Reasurch actions, Train actions, etc. These are the lifeblood
of the non-Regent character. Regents often don't have the oportunity to use
these Character actions (other things demand their attention instead). And
these can be Role-Played out as well: find rare tomes for reasurch, skilled
tuitors for Training, and then work to maintain your relationship with
these mentors, etc. (he he; now it's the Regents sitting on their butts. .
.except we agreed that was bad.)
>
> I just started my BR campaign two weeks ago, and three of the five
> players have blooded characters...two of those are regents. One thing I
did
> was expand the 'domain turn actions'. Now, it has a few more Character
> actions. Why? Well, at the begining of the first session, I decided to
> start off with a domain turn. To get the hang of it and to let the PC's
> start their holdings up, so to speak. At that first session, there were
> only 3 people. Two of them were regents. That turn took over 4
> hours...during which time the non-regent PC just sat around and twiddled
her
> thumbs. It sucked. So, I expanded it a bit (by three character
actions).
> I allow the non-regnets to do things in the domain turns. Is this
normal?
> Or are the non-rengents just supposed to sit on their butts as the
regents
> get to do all the 'cool stuff'? This isn't fair, so now, while regents
will
> frequently be improving their lands, the non-regents will be improving
> themselves. :) Now there seems to be more thought put into what kind of
> character the player wants....do they want political power....or personal
> power? (Base terms, yes, but it works.)
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Denakhan the Arch-Mage
>
>
>
>
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[Lord Eldred]

Does anyone play a non-blooded non-regent? Why would you want to? Or how about a blooded character with no holdings? I think playing a regent is the only way to go in Birthright. What do you think?

[morgramen]

Well, my group plays unblooded nobles and heroes (though we don't play very often.)

It has proven fun, but challenging. For most purposes, unblooded characters can be run just like a regular PC from any other campaign setting. The challenge comes in as a DM, where you have to continually validate the need for your heroes to be involved.

Why would Malrae Roesone need a bunch of adventuring scum to take care of her bandit problem anyway? Why not jsut send her own constables out to deal with it.

Now obviously, you can start your party in such a postion (servants to the regent), but that can get a bit old hat very quickly.

Any way, don't under estimate the fun of building a character out of a farmer, building a reputation, achieveing a bloodline, and finally rising to hold your own domain! This method is much more satisfying IMO that just starting out as a regent.

[blitzmacher]

I am currently running two campaigns. Everyone in it is a regent of some sort, and blooded. The other one has only two blooded characters, and no one is a regent, but it is in Vosgaard where only the strong can survive, and only those who can prove themselves are allowed to lead.

[Lord Eldred]

It seems to me that the players that are not regents get bored when you do domain turns or do you just have them not show up?

I like the idea if they are working to become regents but it seems very rare that a non-blooded would be able to become blooded and then become a regent.

In my campaign, everyone wants to be regents, which can be tough too because then you have to find something that keeps them together as a group. (IE backstabbing in game time can often hurt relationships outside of game time)

[blitzmacher]

In Vos culture if you are not blooded but are strong enough to lead the priests of belenik will make you blooded by taking it from the weak ruler and giving it to the new.
As for nonblooded non regents during domain actions will only get bored if you let them, but then again in Vosgaard the only way to stay in power is to personally see to almost every aspect of your domain actions personally. Which means making adventures out of what would normaly be just rp and gp spent. It is a little harder to DM, but more fun for the players.

[Lord Eldred]

Alright there is a way in the VOS culture but I am not running a VOS campaign. What are other ways to become blooded when you weren't to start?

[blitzmacher]

Thats something that the DM could decide. Maybe the ruling regent dies and the land chose who would be the next ruler, or the character kills a blooded scion or awnshe and for some odd reason absorbed the blood essence, or maybe a church decides to invest a character with someone who is blooded either by the blooded persons consent, or maybe against it if the PC's are holding them prisoner. The possibilities are endless.

[Lord Eldred]

There is a rule that allows characters to improve there blood strength when they kill a blooded character in a certain way. Can a non-blooded character become blooded in this way?

[Raesene Andu]

Generally, I would say that when an unblooded commoner kills a blooded regent, nothing happens. He does not get the scion's bloodline or even a tainted bloodline of his own. However, when killing a scion of Azrai, there is ample evidence that the situation is very different (the Lamia for one was unblooded and gained a bloodline of Azrai). I would assume that the corrupting nature of Azrai's bloodline makes this so, but I don't see other bloodline jumping into commoners.

Of course, what all this means is that eventually most bloodlines will die out or be killed off, and Azrai's blooded will rise to conquer the world. Which is, I guess, why the world chooses to pass on a bloodline to a worthy individual from time to time.

[Lord Eldred]

While I understand the argument that Azrai blood can pass over, then why couldn't any other bloodline. Especially a strong one. Also what of the special weapons that take bloodlines, couldn't they be used to steal the bloodline?

Also isn't there some sort of religious ceremony that can be used to pass on the bloodlines?

[Temujin]

There's no reason why it shouldn't work, in fact, there are quite a few notables NPCs who have gained a bloodline through bloodtheft; regardless of whether the bloodline came from Azrai or not. The bloodline of Azrai isn't imo worse than others, except when absorbing a bloodline from an awnshegh. Someone who successfully kills a regent by piercing his heart would gain the benefits of bloodtheft, yes.

[Lord Eldred]

This whole concept has been bothering me so much I decided to do what I should have done in the first place...read the rule book. What I found is very interesting!

On page 30 it indicates "A character can voluntarily pass his bloodline to another character by participating in a ceremony of investiture (described in detail in Part II)." On page 56 it describes blooline investiture "This ceremony, which is rarely used, transfers all of the power of a bloodline from one character to another. Both characters involved must be present, but the donor need not be a willing participant. The donor gives up his bloodline entirely. If the recipient is unblooded, he assumes his patron's bloodline derivation, strength, and abilities." SO A NON-BLOODED CHARACTER CAN BECOME BLOODED THROUGH INVESTITURE.

On page 31 it describes usurpation (bloodtheft). It indicates "If a blooded character dies a natural death or perishes at the hand of a commoner, his bloodline is unaffected, and all his bloodline characteristics die with him." This would indicate that a non-blooded character couldn't become blooded by piercing a blooded character through the heart. In fact when it mentions this act it refers to a blooded character killing another blooded character in this way. Again on page 31 "If a scion or regent dies as a result of another blooded character piercing him through the heart...the slayer increases his bloodline strenght by 1 point..." SO A NON-BLOODED CHARACTER CAN NOT BECOME BLOODED THROUGH BLOODTHEFT.

On page 31 it also decribes a tighmaevril weapon as an aid to bloodtheft. "The rarest case of bloodtheft occur when a scion is killed with a weapon made of tighmaevril (tih-mee-vril), or bloodsilver." SO A NON-BLOODED CHARACTER COULD NOT USE A TIGHMAEVRIL WEAPON TO BECOME BLOODED BECAUSE NON-BLOODED CHARACTERS CAN NOT BECOME BLOODED THROUGH BLOODTHEFT.

What do people think of these rules? Evidently not everyone has been playing this way.

[Temujin]

I don't think it would make sense to prevent commoners from completing a bloodtheft. Its been done in the books. And I always prefered to adapt the rules to a storyline than adapt a storylines to the rules =) But that's a personal preference, and yes, I know that in the rules per se, its not possible for a commoner to perform bloodtheft.

[Lord Eldred]

OK, I don't necessarily disagree with you but how would it work? Would the commoner gain a 1 point bloodline? You really couldn't give the commoner the same bloodline or even half because that would destroy the need for tighmaevril weapons. So I will ask one more time, how would it work?

[Temujin]

A blooded normally gains 1 point if his bloodline was stronger or equal with the killed, or 2 points if it is weaker. In the case of the last of a line, its 1/5 of the bloodline strenght that is taken. I'd do the same for a commoner: He gains a tainted(2) bloodline, or a bloodline equal to 1/5th of the scion killed if the scion was the last of his bloodline. In most cases though, the commoner won't necessarily notice the difference, a 2 point bloodline really is weak.

[Lord Eldred]

That seems fair to me. What do other people think?

[blitzmacher]

I agree with it.

[Xaphan]

It`s like playing regular AD&D, but with a world already finished!
I think it`s ok to play with unblooded characthers..

[Lord Eldred]

I would agree and I don't see a problem with having a total campaign of commoners. What do you think on the rest of the discussion? Should commoners be able to become blooded? DO you play with just commoners in your campaign?

[Xaphan]

I think it`s not likely for commoners to become blooded, but I usally play with some blooded and some unblooded. And that`s cool! Now we are playing a pirate campaign, and some of the players are trying to take controll over Albiele and make it a kingdom that they rule! (Not that Aerenwe, Roesone, Avanil and Diemed likes it to mutch....but anyway..)

By the way; does anyone have any information about Albiele Island please send it to me!


Lord Eldred! it`s XAPHAN not Xephan

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Xaphan



Lord Eldred! it`s XAPHAN not Xephan

What are you talking about that is exactly what I put :P ;)

[Lawgiver]

I've never had anyone seek to be an un-blooded regent. Though I have entertained thoughts of converting Medoere or Roesone into a Repblic where they would have a ruling council of blooded and unblooded rulers...

I've got a two-fold campaign running parrallel in one the PCs are a mix of blooded and unblooded. I play this section much like a normal campaign in a different game world (though they do have a central goal, which happens to be getting their advocate on the throne...).

The other is a standard blooded regent campaign.

I don't see the reason for an un-blooded regent except to bukc the system and be different. My best solution is that once they become regent they would at least be imbued with a bloodline fo 1 from the land itself.

[Arlen Blaede]

I don't have a problem with a commoner becoming blooded, though there better be some serious roleplaying going on to get there. I have always had the feeling that the blooded were always meant for the great things, be triumph or tragedy, just like King Arthur. So for a commoner to become blooded would just take a major act of dedication on that individual's part.

Myself, I prefer playing in a blooded campaign because then you get to deal with all the things that Birthright was designed for. So a campaign of all commoners would, in my mind, still have to focus on the happenings and interactions of the regents.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

I've never had anyone seek to be an un-blooded regent. Though I have entertained thoughts of converting Medoere or Roesone into a Repblic where they would have a ruling council of blooded and unblooded rulers...

I've got a two-fold campaign running parrallel in one the PCs are a mix of blooded and unblooded. I play this section much like a normal campaign in a different game world (though they do have a central goal, which happens to be getting their advocate on the throne...).

The other is a standard blooded regent campaign.

I don't see the reason for an un-blooded regent except to bukc the system and be different. My best solution is that once they become regent they would at least be imbued with a bloodline fo 1 from the land itself.

Ruling councils work, that is what we have, I never thought of having non-blooded become council members however. If you end up doing it, let me know how it play-tests. You have so many ideas so little time to play test.

[Lawgiver]

While it may be blasphemy to some, I still think that a totally unblooded regent has potential. Perhaps if nothing else limiting him to 1/2 the normal regency. Though you still have the problem of the cap for a bloodline (though I don't use that rule either...)

[Lord Eldred]

The nice thing about being DM is you can allow whatever you want.

[gav]

I allow commoners to commit bloodtheft by the v3.08 rules. They get a couple of points and would really have to kill heaps of scions to get a bloodscore to be a decent regent. Now that's dedication.

My group of five started out as a Blooded (14) Half Orc son of a murdered cheif, a blooded (10) son of a Guildmaster, two commoners and a commoner that had received land + law levels as an "heir". When the group killed a bandit lord (Bloodscore 10). Two of the commoners became blooded through good rolls. One of these was the "heir". This instantly made the commoner who had lands etc into a regent (with 2 bloodscore).

The "heir" was inherited (when she was a baby) by the Prince of Avanil when the Castle in Anuire (that was taken by force when the Prince forced the chancellor to inheri him as Emperor) was beseiged by Aeric Boerine. The Prince knew he was going to be captured so named the baby girl as his heir and challenged Boerine to a duel to the Death. The Prince died but the baby escaped. The Prince hoped (sucessfully) to stuff Boerine around for years to come while he either looked for the baby to invest himself as emperor or slowly contest each province. Its actually 10 times more complex, but I won't bore you with the details....

[Green Knight]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

While it may be blasphemy to some, I still think that a totally unblooded regent has potential. Perhaps if nothing else limiting him to 1/2 the normal regency. Though you still have the problem of the cap for a bloodline (though I don't use that rule either...)

Too bad the rules require 1 RP to be spent to initiate so many actions. If you eliminate this "startup cost" and limit to GB only, commoners could rule - they just wouldn't have the benefit of RP. Allow them to just spen GBs instead to influence checks that normally are modifiable by RP.

[gav]

There are a few ways that Commoner Regents (for the want of a better term) could use Domain Actions that required RP:

set up a vassalage with a regent that pays you RP

convince non-regent scions that have excess RP leftover from usurping to invest this left over RP to you maybe in return for GBs. Wow - deathsquads of the regent (You could transfer this RP to Bloodscore and become a blooded regent)

Carry out some usurping of your own (ver 3.08 style) - if you roll well then you become blooded.

Most of these ways could easily lead you to become a weak bloodscore regent anyway.

Gav

[Lawgiver]

I was hoping to come up with a descent system for commoners to remain commoners (NO BLOODTHEFT!!!) and still be regents. Yes, it defeats the purpose, but to me the limitation and tie of RP to bloodlines never made sense. To me bloodlines are the imbuement of power from dead gods that give bloodpowers. RP comes from a regent's tie to the land they rule. If the tie is to the land and not the power of dead gods, why is it limited to their bloodline strength? If you gain control of 5 new provinces and your RP is already maxed by your bloodline your influence has technically increased and your tie to the land is stronger... but your power to rule (RP) isn't. If a regent with a lower bloodline dies and invests an heir, who has a high bloodline, the same realm suddenly yeilds more influence to a guy who happens to have less experience or favor with the people. Yet because he has more of the mystical dead god stuff running in his veins the domain's power suddenly increases. What's up with that?

[Mithrandir]

Okay, I don't have the rulebook with me, but my understanding that RPs were a benefit of being blooded. I think the rulebook says something about there being no non-blooded regents not geting RP, and so a Non-blooded regent would be kinda hooped with no RP since all the actions need it. The rulebook also says however, that it is not impossibvel ,just unlikely for a commoner regent to occur. This contridication kinda bothers me now that I think about it. Abd by the by, the whole connection between the RP and bloodline is IMO based on the ancient legends of hero-kings. In such legends, "the king is the land" so a stronger king means a more powerfull land.

[Lord Eldred]

My theory on commoner regents is that they can get their power (regency points) either because they have somehow become blooded or they get their power from the people. Regency points is like political power stored up.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
My theory on commoner regents is that they can get their power (regency points) either because they have somehow become blooded or they get their power from the people. Regency points is like political power stored up.

I thought you argued on another thread that commoners were out of luck when it came to RP collection? If its political power stored up then why should it be limited by a bloodline (blloded or commoner)? The theory that as a regent's realm expands so does his RP collection holds true. If you have a potential RP collection of 68 due to your domain power and a bloodline of 18 why would you only collect 18 points of "stored up political power"?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

If its political power stored up then why should it be limited by a bloodline (blloded or commoner)? The theory that as a regent's realm expands so does his RP collection holds true. If you have a potential RP collection of 68 due to your domain power and a bloodline of 18 why would you only collect 18 points of "stored up political power"?

Excellent questions. It would seem logical that your regency should not be limited by your BS.

[Lord Shaene]

I agree Chioran,

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

I agree Chioran,

Could that be because you would be making out like the proverbial bandit? ;)

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
My theory on commoner regents is that they can get their power (regency points) either because they have somehow become blooded or they get their power from the people. Regency points is like political power stored up.

I thought you argued on another thread that commoners were out of luck when it came to RP collection? If its political power stored up then why should it be limited by a bloodline (blloded or commoner)? The theory that as a regent's realm expands so does his RP collection holds true. If you have a potential RP collection of 68 due to your domain power and a bloodline of 18 why would you only collect 18 points of "stored up political power"?

I did? Where? And if I did perhaps I changed my mind.

I don't know why there should be a limit.

[Random]

(Apologies for replying to an dormant thread.)

Birthright as a campaign world works beautifully for a campaign that will change theme during it's lifetime. A DM can use Birthright as backround for a traditional adventure based campaign that at one or more points changes to a regent campaign. This is a very good way to keep a campaign moving and evolving.

Of course you can do this with any game world, but in Birthright/Cerilia it's build-in. The published info will be usable and valuable to any DM wishing to avoid inconsistancies in a long campaign and is great source for foreshadowing.

My current campaign started as a traditional 3rd edition adventuring campaign. The main theme was Survival and the setting the Vosgard. As the characters became too powerful for elements and lesser creatures to be a challenge, I changed focus. The characters were more then happy to hire out as mercenaries and the theme was now Military. As characters got wiser in the ways of the world (or died) I added information and backrounds designed to be - I guess "interesting" is the word - when the next major change took place. Currently and almost accidentally, the characters find themselves in possession of the anuirean realm of Elenie. The routines of military life were getting a bit old for both players and characters so it seems they are willing to give a try to running a realm - even if the actual PC regent doesn't really think it's a good idea, with the Battle-axes of Belinik bloodmarked on his face and all.

So, one reason to have characters staring as commoners is that the game world lends itself to such campaign very well.

I had to abuse a system a bit with a powerful magic item robbing Elenie from it's regent, but I can live (Deux ex machina always makes me laugh, this time I was laughing at myself).

Two of the characters are still unblooded and probably will remain so. Both are combat orientated powerhouses. I assume they will be handling most of "lieutenanting". I don't think this will cause problems, but I will be keeping an eye on possible signs of boredom.


Random Encounter

[Crazy Wolf]

The only problems I have had is when you have one person that has to play blooded when everyone else wants to play true commoners. I have blood hunting grudge monsters for that but I just hate to have one person shine at everyone else's expense.

CW

[Crazy Wolf]

As far as why bloodline limits regency, I think it is so you don't have guys with low bloodlines with large domains. Since you don't have as much "God Juice" you are not as fit to rule. Your neighbors will sense this and you won't have the RP to handle all of the contest actions and your domain will be reduced to something that you can manage. It is the reason that even though you are a great mayor of your town of 5000 you have no idea what it would take to be President. It also prevents one from quickly raising their bloodline since they won't have tons of RP to burn.
With commoners becoming blooded, I like to always have the option of making characters blooded later. I know the rules do not allow for unblooded bloodtheft but I don't have a problem with Rule 0ing that stuff. :P

CW

[blitzmacher]

I thought about non-blooded regents, and how there could be non-blooded regents on other continents in the BR world, and came up with this.
First the character would have to pick up the Leadership Feat to be able to rule. Then the regent would be able to collect what is called Prestige Points. The amount of Prestige Points the character starts out with is equal to their charisma score, and they work in this way.
They are collected in the same way a blooded person would collect RP's except the total is always divided by 2 rounded up. Therefore if a character had 3 level 3 law holdings they would collect 5 Prestige points as opposed to 9 RP's. The maximum amount they can collect is also limited by their charisma score.
Prestige points are used in the same way as RP's except it cost twice as many Prestige points then it would for RP's.
Prestige points can not be transfered from one character to another in anyway. Non-blooded regents don't have the power of the gods running through them and therefore are relatively weaker regents, but they still have their own natural leadership abilities.
Prestige points are not compatible with RP's, and can't be used with RP's.
So, if you think this system could work for non-blooded regents go ahead and collect your PP's.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher
They are collected in the same way a blooded person would collect RP's except the total is always divided by 2 rounded up. Therefore if a character had 3 level 3 law holdings they would collect 5 Prestige points as opposed to 9 RP's. The maximum amount they can collect is also limited by their charisma score. Prestige points are used in the same way as RP's except it cost twice as many Prestige points then it would for RP's.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply divide by four initially instead of performing the math twice? (you collect half as many and they are half as effective when used = 1/4 the value of RP)

[blitzmacher]

I wouldn't think so, since depending on what domain action a character uses would depend on how many points he would spend. If you cut it down to 1/4 in the collection of points, then you would be saying they're hard to collect but just as effective as RP's. Besides, I don't think I can do anything the easy way.