Anuirean Heraldry

[Athos69]

Greetings.

I have a pet project to develop the Arms of the various nations of Anuire, and would like to get some discussions started on the history of Anuire, the possible colours and charges of the 12 tribes of the Andu, a determionation of which of the 12 Ducal Houses are direct decendants of these tribes, which ones were appointed by Emperors past, etc...

Many of you will think that it would be easier to just go ahead and design the Arms as they stand today and call it done, but that would be ignoring the evolution of 1500 years that these arms would undergo, the interrelations between them, and more importantly give us some starting points for the nations and houses that split away from them.

THE IMPERIAL CITY
Assuming that the Imperial Arms would be virtually unchanged from the first Roeles, we need to ask "Who were they?" If Roele, Rasene and Haelyn were the sons of the King of the premier Andu tribe, then, should their arms not reflect this? Since the totem animal of Andurias was a lion, that would be a logical charge to use. The colour red (from accounts I have read in some source I can't fully remember) seems to be associated with nobility, so let's use this as a field colour. In heraldic lingo, one proposed set of Arms fot eh Imperial City would be:
Gules, a lion's head caboshed affronty Or.
In plainspeak, we have a red field, and a golden lion's head staring out at the viewer with the mane surrounding the face, tufts of hair down where the neck would normally be depicted.

Any thoughts?

[Fearless_Leader]

I've always seen the Roele symbol being the double-headed eagle that is often associated with imperial houses (Russia and Austria for example). In this case, I believe that the Roele symbol would be a red double-headed eagle on a white background, as seen on the cover of the boxed set (which is supposed to depict Michael Roele's army at the final battle of the War of Succession, where he is seen battling goblins hired by the Archduke of Boeruine).

[Kzintosh]

:blink: :D Wow! Ambitious...I like that. Well, the Anuireans would certainly be the ones to develop heraldry, given their martial predilictions. I'm not well-versed in the psuedo-history of Anuire to help much in heraldry (at least, I don't recall who the 12 tribes were...at least not THESE 12 tribes ;) ). But I'd be happy to comment. I assume that the Roele crest would develop to show a royal crown...? However, as I recall, the heraldic device shown on the maps (as well as the "crown") is a double-headed eagle. I'm assuming that would be the Roele heraldic device.

[kgauck]

My main problem with using a lion for Imperial charges is that we know from

the map that the Imperial charge is an eagle. Perhaps we eagles for

secular/landed empire and lions for the temples.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

Here are some of my observations on Anuirean Heraldry.



What we see in the art:

Roesone: a black hart on a gold field (head for the ruler, whole body for

her court)

Ilien: a gold ship on a blue field

Boeruine: a purple field with two gold lions facing. I have problems with

this as Boeruine`s personal or realm blazon. I think this arrangement

refers to an office (Marshal of the Empire?) that Boeruine claims as part of

his bid for the Iron Throne.

Talinie: a blue bear on a white field

Avanil: Gold double eagle on a red field

Ghoere: someone is wearing a gold griffon or dragon on a red field

Mhoried: a quartered blazon, white scales on a blue field, 1st and 4th. A

blue (?) sword on a white field, 2nd and 3rd. Again I have a problem. I

think this refers to a office the Mhor holds in some religious order. I

think the scales refer to the justice of Haelyn and the sword to Cuiraecen

refering to Haelyn`s Aegis and the Militant Order. He claims to represent

both. Otherwise this old ducal figure should have an unquartered blazon.

Dhoesone: Rulers wear pretty clothes, but sometimes these clothes have

meaning, especially in color. I suspect that Dhoesone`s colors are gold and

green. They probabaly have been since the realm was Rjurik.

Tharhievel: the Anuireans probabaly represent this realm by a red rose.



On the map, Anuire is a red double eagle holding a black serpent in its

claws on a gold field.

Brecture a gold boat on a blue backround. Those green fish would become

invisible at a distance.

Rjurik: two black Wyvern, facing on a red field.



Looking at the PS`s (a problem I discussed on Jan 4 of this year)

Medoere is a silver unicorn on a blue field

forget Ilien in favor of RoE

Talinie for it in favor of Roe

Baruk-Azhik black hammer on gold field

Endier gold sunburst on black field, with a red spider on top

Tournen white hart on green (same custom as Roesone?)

Roesone speaking of which, forget it in favor of RoE (and the pictures

inside)

Stjordvik gold battle axe on a green field



For the case of Boeruine, I think Taline is a clue, supported by the obvious

case of canting which is so tempting here. Boeruine`s charge is a bear.

Talinie adapted her overlord`s charge. A red bear on gold or vice versa?

Sometimes red and purple are interchangable, is it a purple bear on gold?

We`ll need to work this out.



Let`s see if we can nail down the most reliable blazons before moving to the

unknowns.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

Another thing that should be settled first off is the actual shades of colours; for example, burgundy and fuchsia are both shades of purple, but...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 5:09 PM





> Another thing that should be settled first off is the actual shades of

colours; for example, burgundy and fuchsia are both shades of purple, but...



I would prefer that there are no shades, just the five colors and two

metals. Use of the furs is open as far as I am concerned.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Birthright-L]

> :blink: :D Wow&#33; Ambitious...I like that. Well, the Anuireans

> would certainly be the ones to develop heraldry, given their martial

> predilictions. I`m not well-versed in the psuedo-history of Anuire to

> help much in heraldry (at least, I don`t recall who the 12 tribes

> were...at least not THESE 12 tribes ;) ). But I`d be happy to comment. I

> assume that the Roele crest would develop to show a royal crown...?

> However, as I recall, the heraldic device shown on the maps (as well as

> the "crown") is a double-headed eagle. I`m assuming that would

> be the Roele heraldic device.



If you look closely at the Anuire map from Boxed Set(mine is from the computer game but it`s the same thing), you will notice that all crests of the Five Tribes have a crown.

[Birthright-L]

> My main problem with using a lion for Imperial charges is that we know

> from

> the map that the Imperial charge is an eagle. Perhaps we eagles for

> secular/landed empire and lions for the temples.



Lion is Boeruine, I think, and, yes, eagle is Imperial.

[Birthright-L]

>

> For the case of Boeruine, I think Taline is a clue, supported by the

> obvious

> case of canting which is so tempting here. Boeruine`s charge is a bear.

> Talinie adapted her overlord`s charge. A red bear on gold or vice versa?

> Sometimes red and purple are interchangable, is it a purple bear on gold?

> We`ll need to work this out.

>

> Let`s see if we can nail down the most reliable blazons before moving to

> the

> unknowns.





Why not simply accept the ones from PS and novels and move on to the ones that were never officially described?

[Birthright-L]

>

> > Another thing that should be settled first off is the actual shades of

> colours; for example, burgundy and fuchsia are both shades of purple,

> but...

>



I`d like to stick to heraldic glossary, too, if only I could remember all those French names for colors :(

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Birthright&#045;L@Feb 2 2004, 04:00 PM
Why not simply accept the ones from PS and novels and move on to the ones that were never officially described?

Mostly because the heraldry on the PS covers is nothing more than &#39;pretty artwork&#39;. These blazons are muddled, stylized and have no identifiability from a distance. With most of them, the colour combination has poor contrast. Remember, the point of heraldry is to be able to tell who that armoured fellow charging at you across the field is.

Also we run into the fact that alot of heraldry &#39;grows&#39; over time, as second sons, 3rd sons and other sons develop into their own branches of the family, families intermarry, alliances are formed, allianced break down, etc. Because of this, we need to start at the beginning, nail down the 12 original Arms and evolve them from there.

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Birthright&#045;L@Feb 2 2004, 04:00 PM
I`d like to stick to heraldic glossary, too, if only I could remember all those French names for colors :(
Colours:

Red - gules
Green - vert
Blue - azure
Purple - purpure
Black - sable

Metals:

White - argent
Yellow - Or*

* the word Or is always capitalized to avoid confusion with the preposition &#39;or&#39;

There are also a series of field treatmetns called Furs, but without graphics to show people it makes it very difficult to describe them.

[CMonkey]

Wow&#33; Ambitious...I like that.
I don&#39;t. You need a realistic scope otherwise it&#39;ll never get finished.


Many of you will think that it would be easier to just go ahead and design the Arms as they stand today and call it done, but that would be ignoring the evolution of 1500 years that these arms would undergo, the interrelations between them, and more importantly give us some starting points for the nations and houses that split away from them.
That would include me I&#39;m afraid. Look at the Atlas, only now the scope as been reduced to a more managable "Anuire only" are we likely to see it. I would dearly love to have Athos&#39;s heraldry included in the document, but I&#39;m concerned about biting off more that you can chew.

Anyway, enough naysaying. A question:

How strict are the colours? With only 5 colours and 2 "metals", do colours like gold and orange (for example) become impossible or can they be classed as types of yellow?

CM.

[Birthright-L]

> Mostly because the heraldry on the PS covers is nothing more than `pretty

> artwork`. These blazons are muddled, stylized and have no identifiability

> from a distance. With most of them, the colour combination has poor

> contrast. Remember, the point of heraldry is to be able to tell who that

> armoured fellow charging at you across the field is.



Please correct me if I`m wrong, but I think that identification in war is not the only purpose of heraldic emblems. Major realms, like Avanil, Boeruine, Ghoere, etc, which are expected to go to war or send the most soldiers to the Imperial army should have blazons which are simple and identifiable from the distance. Realms ruled by minor families, like Ilien, Medoere, Tuornen, etc, would prefer having stylish blazons which would often be overcrowded with symbols. This number of symbols also sounds logical. Major bloodlines try to keep their line intact, so symbols of other houses with very rarely, if ever, be added to the blazon. On the other hand, minor families will try to form marriage-based alliances with as many other families as possible to gain their support. Thus, they would have to add new symbols to their blazon and make it a little overcrowded like the blazon of Tuornen, for example.



>

> Also we run into the fact that alot of heraldry `grows` over time, as

> second sons, 3rd sons and other sons develop into their own branches of

> the family, families intermarry, alliances are formed, allianced break

> down, etc. Because of this, we need to start at the beginning, nail down

> the 12 original Arms and evolve them from there.

>



I totally agree about this.

[Birthright-L]

>

> How strict are the colours? With only 5 colours and 2 "metals",

> do colours like gold and orange (for example) become impossible or can

> they be classed as types of yellow?

>



Or is gold, not real yellow. I`ve never seen a blazon with real yellow, so I don`t think it was used much. Same for orange. I`m not an expert on heraldry, but I think French names are used because those are special shades of colors, not the ones like in MS Paint`s basic palette.

[Athos69]

Yes, Or is technically gold, but unless it was a really reddish orange, we would call it Or. Mind you, the closer your colour is to the ideal, the more contrast you will have.

[Sthenelos]

Actually, from english heraldry, we also get Sanguine and Orange, as well as the metal Fer. There are also Carnation (flesh) and, although I doubt it came before the late 15th century, proper or au naturel, basically in real life colours.

Actually, minor families would still have arms less exaggerated than those on the PS covers, moreso if sovereign. The arms of the Doges of Venice are generally simpler than the great arms of the Most Serene republic. And complicated arms are not generally so much due to the individual pictures than due to the accumulation of individual arms (the Two Sicilies, from 1716, had 7 combined coats of arms for iheir great arms), as well as being generally rather late.

[Blaad]

Can someone help me, where can I get the banner pictures or shield blazons of the domains (or realms) of Anuire?
Thanks&#33;