Blood Enemies Questions

[Harri Kemppainen]

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Brandon Quina wrote:

> > why do they NEED to be blooded to rule now? Elves mastered magic long
> > before humans, yet they NEED the blood of a human's god to use True
> > Magic, with ley lines and all? Dwarven deities have always seemed
> > practical and sensible to me, yet Moradin must be crazy, because only
> > a dwarf with the blood of a HUMAN god can become regent of DWARVEN
> > temples?

> Human god or not-- a god is a god is a god, and gods are majestic,
> powerful, and truly powerful. Anyone who saw one would be overwhelmed
> (if you think a regents divine aura is strong, imagine what the ones
> the GODs had were like). Even /MORADIN/ would want someone with a
> touch of the divine ruling his kingdom, as it would be easier on his
> people.
>
> As for the elves, they dont have gods of their own. It becomes even
> MORE important to them. Divine is Divine-- its not like the gods
> WERE human or anything.. They were /GODS/.. An elf with a divine
> bloodline is the closest thing the elves HAVE to a diety-- an elf
> with divine powers.. Its only natural that these people would ascend
> to power. Now, it has become so ingrained in peoples mind that they
> cant imagine their nations ruled by the unblooded.

I can see why these thigs bug people, I myself wouldn't mind for minor
inconsistencies. Anyway there is reasonable solution to this problem well
two actually.

Like Bandon Quinna points out bloodlines comes from GODS. It cant be
actually anything to do with blood more like divine power and what those
GODS represented. Those GODS were real so even if elves don't believe in
gods they just don't stop existing. And after all who says predeismaar
GODS were not for all races, humans, demihumans, goblinoids etc.

Other solution is more like TSR solution. Same rules apply to all but on
different grounds. Human regents rule and cast spells because they have
a bloodline, elves cos they are so attuned to land or more likely to
forrests and all life in it, and dwarves cos they are attuned to rock in
which they live and mine, and halfings cos they are from Shadow World and
draw energy straight from there. Only problem is that why some elves
dwarves or halfings can use this energy. Well you just born with it, in
game terms all cases can be handled with rules relating to bloodlines,
regency etc.

If you look a bit closer what bloodlines are, you see that it comes very
close to late medieval idea that god gives the king the right to rule. In
BR its just more concrete, GODS gave their essence which enables regent to
attune with land and gain regency points.

- ---
cshake@kastanja.uta.fi

[Jeremy Reaban]

I finally got Blood Enemies, which I ordered from a mail order company way
way back in May. (It was originally damaged in the mail - then returned,
then replaced, but they couldn't replace another thing I ordered from them
at the same time- Cities of the Sun - it's now Out of Print apparently, so
they delayed resending it to see if they could find one)

Anyway, I have some questions.

First of all, I noticed a mention of a psionicist. (One of the people eaten
by the Hydra was one). I thought there were no psionicists in BR. Has this
changed? On a related note, in the entry for the Wolf - one of the
interviewers has powers of telepathy and empathy. Psionics again?

Secondly, the Itave? Are they detailed anywhere? (Cities of the Sun?)

And also, in a couple cases, just the killing of some blooded people, as
opposed to impaling them through the heart, seems to increase the killers
bloodline (as well as someone in the area). For instance, the Chimera. Not
that I mind making it harder for players, but I think the rules should
apply to everyone equally, unless there is a good explanation.

Jeremy


-

[Cymbelline]

Jeremy Reaban wrote:

> First of all, I noticed a mention of a psionicist. (One of the people
> eaten
> by the Hydra was one). I thought there were no psionicists in BR. Has
> this
> changed? On a related note, in the entry for the Wolf - one of the
> interviewers has powers of telepathy and empathy. Psionics again?
>

No, as far as I can tell it has not changed. But I am beginning to
believe that maybe, just maybe, the Maestians (have I spelled that
correctly? I don't know think, but then again...) had some sort of
psionic ability. Could these people who were killed have been
psionic? Who knows...?

Regards,
Cymbelline.

[MHahn59022@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-08-19 07:27:08 EDT, you write:

>

I think that it is much more likely for a psionicist to be mistaken for an
enchanter, rather than vice verse, given the fact that most people have never
even heard of weird mind powers, and have heard of weird magic powers.

Michael Hahn
You can run, but you'll only die tired.

[breye@earthlink.ne]

MHahn59022@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-08-19 07:27:08 EDT, you write:
>
> really fit the setting? Besides which point, it could really be an
> enchanter or something that people THINK is a psionicist....after all,
> magic is very rare right? Maybe someone is just bamboozling the
> witnesses.
> >>
>
> I think that it is much more likely for a psionicist to be mistaken for an
> enchanter, rather than vice verse, given the fact that most people have never
> even heard of weird mind powers, and have heard of weird magic powers.
>

Psionicist? My opinion is that someone goofed, and it slipped by, but
if you are looking for ways to explain how or why a Psionicist is there,
you could say that the Psionicist was an adventurer from another world.

Bry

[Paul Lefebvre]

MHahn59022@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-19 07:27:08 EDT, you write:
>
>
> really fit the setting? Besides which point, it could really be an
> enchanter or something that people THINK is a psionicist....after
> all,
> magic is very rare right? Maybe someone is just bamboozling the
> witnesses.
> >>
>
> I think that it is much more likely for a psionicist to be mistaken
> for an
> enchanter, rather than vice verse, given the fact that most people
> have never
> even heard of weird mind powers, and have heard of weird magic powers.
>
> Michael Hahn

Perhaps a psionicist has immigrated from another world then...

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

Cymbelline wrote:

> Jeremy Reaban wrote:
>
> > First of all, I noticed a mention of a psionicist. (One of the
> people
> > eaten
> > by the Hydra was one). I thought there were no psionicists in BR.
> Has
> > this
> > changed? On a related note, in the entry for the Wolf - one of the
> > interviewers has powers of telepathy and empathy. Psionics again?
> >
>
> No, as far as I can tell it has not changed. But I am beginning to
> believe that maybe, just maybe, the Maestians (have I spelled that
> correctly? I don't know think, but then again...) had some sort of
> psionic ability. Could these people who were killed have been
> psionic? Who knows...?
>
> Regards,
> Cymbelline.
>

That's an interesting idea...they were supposed to be different from
everyone else in some way weren't they? The Serpent caused them to all
be slain by outer planar creatures from what I understand...then there
are those mysterious creatures called the "Dhoumaire" (I think....the
one's who wait, or the one's who watch). In my campaign, I am planning
on using them as a group of migrant Irda that fled Krynn before or
during the Chaos war. Actually, one thing that I'm really curious
about is magic...there are references to the Vos once being powerful
sorcerors...but if they were all simply magicians, with illusions and
divinations, this doesn't really hold true. And in the Book of
Magecraft, there are references to ley lines BEFORE Deismaar, and the
fact that the elves had the ability to use them...does that mean that
non-blooded elves have the ability to use sources and ley lines??
Additionally, it's kind of nitpicking, but if the elves always had true
magic, and the humans only had lesser magic, how the heck did the elves
ever lose?? One elven mage with some well-cast spells could decimate
or terrify an opposing human army...can you imagine even a 10th lvl
mage going against a magician with basically only illusions and
divinations..?? The humans had clerics and everything, but clerics
aren't always the most useful in war, facing units of enemies...
Also, what happens when a non-blooded human mage in Cerilia travels
to another world like Toril?? Can they use all schools of magic?? What
about a Torilian wizard (obviously not blooded) travelling to
Cerillia?? Would they lose the ability to cast any spells higher than
lvl 2 or the Illusion and Divination schools??
Lastly, what about the Magian. He is some sort of Lich, and even
was before he arrived on Cerilia and gained a bloodline...and the spells
required to become a lich require a lot more than illusions and
divinations or 1st and 2nd lvl spells of the other schools...how would
he have become a lich?
If anyone can answer any of these questions that would be great
(including TSR staff). I'm new to this list, so if it's been discussed
before, I never received any of those messages.

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

breye@earthlink.net wrote:

> MHahn59022@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 97-08-19 07:27:08 EDT, you write:
> >
> > > really fit the setting? Besides which point, it could really be an
>
> > enchanter or something that people THINK is a psionicist....after
> all,
> > magic is very rare right? Maybe someone is just bamboozling the
> > witnesses.
> > >>
> >
> > I think that it is much more likely for a psionicist to be mistaken
> for an
> > enchanter, rather than vice verse, given the fact that most people
> have never
> > even heard of weird mind powers, and have heard of weird magic
> powers.
> >
>
> Psionicist? My opinion is that someone goofed, and it slipped by, but
>
> if you are looking for ways to explain how or why a Psionicist is
> there,
> you could say that the Psionicist was an adventurer from another
> world.
>
>

Well yeah, someone probably did goof, unless there's something they're
not telling us, but it's also interesting to try and fit it in somehow.
Now that it's in print, TSR will.

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:

> I also believe that an off-world wizard will only have access to
> magician
> magic while in Cerilia or the Shadow, as the power comes from the
> land, and
> is governed by Ruornil, and neither of them (nor I ) would be happy
> about an
> offworld mage taking over... also, Elminster reduced to a magician is
> just so
> dang funny...
> ...(V)agnus |{haine...
> ************

That is EXACTLY why I brought up the point...trying to decide ways
to beat on elminster a bit in my campaign (and if he was simply a
magician for a while)...and some way to drop Drizzt...the ranger's
lasted way too long and it's getting boring.. I think what the realms
need is some MAJOR renovations where a bunch of the old stock NPCs and
institutions get whipped....maybe that's what the Phaerimm are
for...
Paul L.

[Sepsis]

At 01:29 PM 8/20/97 -0400, (MagnusKhn@aol.com)wrote:
>

>
>(Side note- Since halflings did not come into Cerilia until
>a while after Deismaar, how did they become a blooded race?
>Perhaps purist Elves invested away their human blood and gave it to
>Halflings?)
>

>

There is no doubt that the explosion at Deismaar had a few major effects on
the SW. Blooding the native race could have been one of them. I have also
heard(in a novel prehaps)that the first Halflings arrived on Cerilia as the
blast took Deismaar and ripped a hole between the two worlds. Blooding them
as they arrived.

Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

[dsolie]

Paul Lefebvre wrote:
>
> dsolie wrote:
>
> > Paul Lefebvre wrote:
> > > And in the Book of
> > > Magecraft, there are references to ley lines BEFORE Deismaar, and
> > the
> > > fact that the elves had the ability to use them...does that mean
> > that
> > > non-blooded elves have the ability to use sources and ley lines??
> > Elves are so attuned to nature that any elf could become a true
> > mage....
> But only someone with realm magic (ie. a bloodline) can use ley
> lines, sources, and realm spells in the setting....
>
"True magic magic includes all other schools of wizardry, but only
elves, half-elves, and blooded humans can command its arcane power."
BR rulebook, pg 12, 2nd column.

Realm magic can only be used by wizards who can control true magic, and
then only if they own a source....

[Darkstar]

MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:
>
> I believe that Elves do not require bloodlines to use Ley lines, some elves
> might even find the concept of bloodlines abhorrent, as it is the essence of
> dead gods of the humans... Elves have neither gods nor a love for humans, so
> being a scion might even be seen as an impurity or stigma. As far as them
> needing blood to rule, they, the dwarves and probably the halflings got by
> just fine long before Deismaar. (Side note- Since halflings did not come into
> Cerilia until a while after Deismaar, how did they become a blooded race?
> Perhaps purist Elves invested away their human blood and gave it to
> Halflings?)

Prehaps the Elves did not require bloodlines before Diesmaar, but after
the essense of magic changed and now Elven mages require bloodline, just
like other race. Well that is my opinion anyway.
As for halfling I though I read somewhere that they were present at
Diesmaar, if only watch on from the sidelines.

> I also believe that an off-world wizard will only have access to magician
> magic while in Cerilia or the Shadow, as the power comes from the land, and
> is governed by Ruornil, and neither of them (nor I ) would be happy about an
> offworld mage taking over... also, Elminster reduced to a magician is just so
> dang funny...

That is how I would play it. Any mage from another world would suddenly
find themselves without access to many of their spells.


- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss
Page Updates: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/update.html

From the Darkness we came.
And to the Darkness we will return.

[Paul Lefebvre]

Darkstar wrote:

> MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I believe that Elves do not require bloodlines to use Ley lines,
> some elves
> > might even find the concept of bloodlines abhorrent, as it is the
> essence of
> > dead gods of the humans... Elves have neither gods nor a love for
> humans, so
> > being a scion might even be seen as an impurity or stigma. As far as
> them
> > needing blood to rule, they, the dwarves and probably the halflings
> got by
> > just fine long before Deismaar. (Side note- Since halflings did not
> come into
> > Cerilia until a while after Deismaar, how did they become a blooded
> race?
> > Perhaps purist Elves invested away their human blood and gave it to
> > Halflings?)
>
> Prehaps the Elves did not require bloodlines before Diesmaar, but
> after
> the essense of magic changed and now Elven mages require bloodline,
> just
> like other race. Well that is my opinion anyway.
> As for halfling I though I read somewhere that they were present at
> Diesmaar, if only watch on from the sidelines.
>
> > I also believe that an off-world wizard will only have access to
> magician
> > magic while in Cerilia or the Shadow, as the power comes from the
> land, and
> > is governed by Ruornil, and neither of them (nor I ) would be happy
> about an
> > offworld mage taking over... also, Elminster reduced to a magician
> is just so
> > dang funny...
>
> That is how I would play it. Any mage from another world would
> suddenly
> find themselves without access to many of their spells.
>
> --
> Ian Hoskins

What about other races that are heavily magical though?? Irda,
drow, githzerai, aasimar (half-human, half-aasimon, from Planescape).
Think these would use true magic??
Is there any birthright product where the lifespan of Cerilian
half-elves has been shown?? A normal elf lives 500-700 years, while a
human lives 100-140. A half-elf lives about 250 years....but in
Cerilia, the elves are immortal. Does a lifespan of about 400-500 years
make sense for half-elves??

Paul L.

[breye@earthlink.ne]

Sepsis wrote:
>
> At 01:29 PM 8/20/97 -0400, (MagnusKhn@aol.com)wrote:
> >
>
> >
> >(Side note- Since halflings did not come into Cerilia until
> >a while after Deismaar, how did they become a blooded race?
> >Perhaps purist Elves invested away their human blood and gave it to
> >Halflings?)

>

> There is no doubt that the explosion at Deismaar had a few major effects on
> the SW. Blooding the native race could have been one of them. I have also
> heard(in a novel prehaps)that the first Halflings arrived on Cerilia as the
> blast took Deismaar and ripped a hole between the two worlds. Blooding them
> as they arrived.
>

Actually the information you're looking for is in the main Birthright rule book,
(p.8 first paragraph)

"...A small number of halflings arrived in Cerilia in time to
witness the battle of Mount Deismaar....."

The halflings were in Cerilia in time to become blooded in
the same way that everyone else, hope that helps.

Bry

[MagnusKhn@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-08-20 21:19:36 EDT, Banshee writes:

[MagnusKhn@aol.co]

Thanks for the info, Sepsis. My area has had next to nothing for BR... EVER!
Therefore I have very limited source material...
...BUT...
What about the Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings before the humans ever came?
They would have had their own rulership way before Deismaar, so why do they
NEED to be blooded to rule now? Elves mastered magic long before humans, yet
they NEED the blood of a human's god to use True Magic, with ley lines and
all? Dwarven deities have always seemed practical and sensible to me, yet
Moradin must be crazy, because only a dwarf with the blood of a HUMAN god can
become regent of DWARVEN temples?
Again, with as predjudiced as many elves are toward humans, why would the
blood of a human god be something to respect? It would seem that the most
extreme of these elves would disdain those with the human-god blood, yet
their leader, Rhoubhe, has gallons of it!
Most of the rules on being a regent seem to primarily apply to humans...

[breye@earthlink.ne]

Paul Lefebvre wrote:
>
> Darkstar wrote:
>
> > MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe that Elves do not require bloodlines to use Ley lines,
> > some elves
> > > might even find the concept of bloodlines abhorrent, as it is the
> > essence of
> > > dead gods of the humans... Elves have neither gods nor a love for
> > humans, so
> > > being a scion might even be seen as an impurity or stigma. As far as
> > them
> > > needing blood to rule, they, the dwarves and probably the halflings
> > got by
> > > just fine long before Deismaar. (Side note- Since halflings did not
> > come into
> > > Cerilia until a while after Deismaar, how did they become a blooded
> > race?
> > > Perhaps purist Elves invested away their human blood and gave it to
> > > Halflings?)
> >
> > Prehaps the Elves did not require bloodlines before Diesmaar, but
> > after
> > the essense of magic changed and now Elven mages require bloodline,
> > just
> > like other race. Well that is my opinion anyway.
> > As for halfling I though I read somewhere that they were present at
> > Diesmaar, if only watch on from the sidelines.
> >
> > > I also believe that an off-world wizard will only have access to
> > magician
> > > magic while in Cerilia or the Shadow, as the power comes from the
> > land, and
> > > is governed by Ruornil, and neither of them (nor I ) would be happy
> > about an
> > > offworld mage taking over... also, Elminster reduced to a magician
> > is just so
> > > dang funny...
> >
> > That is how I would play it. Any mage from another world would
> > suddenly
> > find themselves without access to many of their spells.
> >
> > --
> > Ian Hoskins
>
> What about other races that are heavily magical though?? Irda,
> drow, githzerai, aasimar (half-human, half-aasimon, from Planescape).
> Think these would use true magic??
> Is there any birthright product where the lifespan of Cerilian
> half-elves has been shown?? A normal elf lives 500-700 years, while a
> human lives 100-140. A half-elf lives about 250 years....but in
> Cerilia, the elves are immortal. Does a lifespan of about 400-500 years
> make sense for half-elves??
>
> Paul L.Ummmm....Birthright elves are immortal I thought.

[MagnusKhn@aol.co]

Irda, Githzerai, drow, etc. DO NOT BELONG ON CERILIA! The land supplies the
power, Ruornil governs it, and the only reason elves are able to use all
magic without necessarily being blooded, Is because they are CERILIAN
elves... they are closely linked with their land. The other races would be
completely subject to the rules of Cerilian magic, after all, Ruornil and
'the land' like it the way it is, and aren't going to be giving away freebies
to offworlders... On the Shadow World seminar recording, it says that any
planar travel to Cerilia deposits you in the Shadow World, and if you think
native Cerilians have a hard time there, offworlders would be zombie chow.

...(V)agnus |{haine...

[Darkstar]

Paul Lefebvre wrote:

> What about other races that are heavily magical though?? Irda,
> drow, githzerai, aasimar (half-human, half-aasimon, from Planescape).
> Think these would use true magic??

Not unless they were blooded, which is unlikly. They could use true
magic on other planes, just not in Cerilia.

> Is there any birthright product where the lifespan of Cerilian
> half-elves has been shown?? A normal elf lives 500-700 years, while a
> human lives 100-140. A half-elf lives about 250 years....but in
> Cerilia, the elves are immortal. Does a lifespan of about 400-500 years
> make sense for half-elves??

I would say that half-elves are immortal as well, but only as long as
they live in the Elven forests. If they leave and live in the realms of
men then they will start to age.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss
Page Updates: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/update.html

From the Darkness we came.
And to the Darkness we will return.

[Brandon Quina]

> ...BUT...
> What about the Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings before the humans ever
> came? They would have had their own rulership way before Deismaar, so
> why do they NEED to be blooded to rule now? Elves mastered magic long
> before humans, yet they NEED the blood of a human's god to use True
> Magic, with ley lines and all? Dwarven deities have always seemed
> practical and sensible to me, yet Moradin must be crazy, because only
> a dwarf with the blood of a HUMAN god can become regent of DWARVEN
> temples?

Before Deismaar even the Humans had kings and prelates and such forth.
However, after Deismaar those with the divine power naturally rose to
their positions of power. It wasnt a fact that only people with
blooded abilitys can rule domains-- so much that they were the best
suited to ruling a domain.

As for dwarves and elves. You might think that 'human gods' would be
a bad thing-- but remember, the word GOD is in there. In the
dragonlance book, when tanis see's the dark queen he cant help himself
but to bow and worship her. He may hate her guts, and everything about
her but she is a /GOD/.

Human god or not-- a god is a god is a god, and gods are majestic,
powerful, and truly powerful. Anyone who saw one would be overwhelmed
(if you think a regents divine aura is strong, imagine what the ones
the GODs had were like). Even /MORADIN/ would want someone with a
touch of the divine ruling his kingdom, as it would be easier on his
people.

As for the elves, they dont have gods of their own. It becomes even
MORE important to them. Divine is Divine-- its not like the gods
WERE human or anything.. They were /GODS/.. An elf with a divine
bloodline is the closest thing the elves HAVE to a diety-- an elf
with divine powers.. Its only natural that these people would ascend
to power. Now, it has become so ingrained in peoples mind that they
cant imagine their nations ruled by the unblooded.

Another important thing, is that the divine bloodlines used to be
far stronger. They've been diluted by the gorgons harvesting, and
breeding with other-- lesser --bloodlines. I imagine that the people
who started the tradition of the blooded ruling were rather spectular.



- --
Brandon Quina \\|//
lore@tmgbbs.com (x x)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---

[DURKS95@aol.co]

If I recall correctly, Un-blooded elves can cast true magic.

Quote form the Rulebook
"True magic include all other schools fo magic, but only elves, half-elves
and blooded humans can command it's arcane power."

This gives me the idea that both elves and half-elves need not be blooded to
cast true magic.