Blood Enemies Questions

[Joao Medeiros]

> You are correct there. However, the issue is caused by some
>passages in the Blood Enemies sourcebook which indicate that elves (in
>the past, before Deismaar) seemed to have the ability to use ley lines
>and sources (this before there were any bloodlines). However the
>rulebook states that a bloodline in necessary to use realm magic (ie.
>ley lines and sources). These two entries seem to be inconsistent. Can
>elves use ley lines without a bloodline??
>
>Paul L.
>

This may be true, but the book of magecraft seems to explain this. According
to it there existed a network of natural ley lines before Deismaar. They
were literally rivers of magic. However the explosion of Deismaar disrupted
and destroyed all of these, preventing elves from using them as they did
before. Although one or two still exisit they are so badly damaged as to be
useless.

-Joao Medeiros
lcgm@elogica.com.br

[Joao Medeiros]

> Concerning power gaming, I think the problem lies less with race
>than in questions of alignment. Players who play characters of evil
>alignment tend to unbalance a party. As a DM, I set a strict limit by
>not allowing any of my players to play evil characters. I've seen and
>heard many people defend the position of playing an evil character. All
>I've seen it as is an excuse to bully other player characters, gain
>magic the easy way (mugging NPCs etc). And then these players get upset
>when the city guard or some paladin come along and take them down.
>That, to me, is a real problem with powergaming.
>
>Paul L.

I agree with you on the question of alignment. However, I do not
believe in banning evil characters, at least not in BR where they do not
work as closly as in other campaign worlds. In my BR campaign I have a evil
PC. He chose his alignment and I see no way to alter it with out forcing him
to do something that he doesn't wants. I do have a soloution though. As I
learned AD&D with the DL campaign I am very familiar with the notion that
evil will always turn against itself. His fate has already been planned out,
and by no means is it pleasant(It includes artifact possesion and the
gorgon). Any way, what I am saying is that you cannot ban someone from being
evil and not expect him to still want to be evil. You have to show him that
it is not a good idea to be evil in the first place, and a good way to do
this is though demonstration.

-Joao Medeiros
lcgm@elogica.com.br

[Joao Medeiros]

At 07:42 23/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
>commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault, but
>don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.

I don't kill him because he is evil. I use his evil nature, his lust
for power, to lure him to his own doom. Through this method he will gain
great power in the beginning, but in the end it will be all for nothing.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

-Joao Medeiros
lcgm@elogica.com.br

[Joao Medeiros]

>That's it, if you play fairly an evil character will have the same
>chances of a good character to fall in disgrace...evil doesn't mean
>stupid, and a guy that cannot resist to temptations is not evil, he's
>an idiot. An evil character, to me, is just somebody who only cares
>about
>his own plans and needs but if he wants to survive he has to learn that
>the only safe way to use people is by not letting them know you're using
>them...the ancient and noble art of the backstab in a dark alley...where
>nobody can witness what happened. Probably sooner or later he's going to
>be caught but hey, probably sooner or later that Pitfiend will use the
>valiant paladin as toothpaste.

My point exactly. A smart evil character can easily get to the top and
challenge all comers. BUT there is a critical difference between an evil PC
and an evil NPC. PCs, in general, get too cocky for their own good, this is
especially true if they are evil. That is why it works better for a campaign
that the good PCs work together to offset each others flaws. As an example,
the evil PC that I am referring to has already caused a scandal in his
nobles by executing his own cousin, with no proof of guilt, on the spot(a
formal gathering, the Duke of Calrie's funeral) just so he could gain a
bloodline point.

-Joao Medeiros
lcgm@elogica.com.br

[Joel Parrish]

In ancient Greece and Rome, the gods that they worshiped represented
different aspects of NATURE, and face it folks, their pantheons are what
most of the ones in our fantasy realms are based on. In Birthright, this is
true also. If you look at the desciptions of the gods, they each represent
aspects of nature. The power of the Blood makes connections to the land, not
the gods. If this were not true, Haylen would only allow those of Andurias'
derivation to worship him. The dwarves and elves see the Blood as a
connection to the land itself, to NATURE, not to gods of any sort. True that
the original derivation does change what abilities they have, but that can
be seen as an inherited trait. The elves don't beleive in the human gods,
but a Flame Strike will toast them just as easily as any other race. The
blood represents the ancient powers of the land, drawn up into the human
gods, and then redispersed to the land and those who were at Mt Deismarr.
Also remember that Rhuobe himself followed a human god, Azrai, into the
battle at Deismarr. He may know that the power was from the gods essence,
but that doesn't stop him from using its power to destroy the humans. Hope
this helps. And sorry if it wasn't exactly linear, long night last night.

KOS
For every light lit, a shadow is cast. Be careful not to confuse the two.

[Paul Lefebvre]

MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:

> Thanks for the info, Sepsis. My area has had next to nothing for
> BR... EVER!
> Therefore I have very limited source material...
> ...BUT...
> What about the Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings before the humans ever
> came?
> They would have had their own rulership way before Deismaar, so why do
> they
> NEED to be blooded to rule now? Elves mastered magic long before
> humans, yet
> they NEED the blood of a human's god to use True Magic, with ley lines
> and
> all? Dwarven deities have always seemed practical and sensible to me,
> yet
> Moradin must be crazy, because only a dwarf with the blood of a HUMAN
> god can
> become regent of DWARVEN temples?
> Again, with as predjudiced as many elves are toward humans, why would
> the
> blood of a human god be something to respect? It would seem that the
> most
> extreme of these elves would disdain those with the human-god blood,
> yet
> their leader, Rhoubhe, has gallons of it!
> Most of the rules on being a regent seem to primarily apply to
> humans...

I've noticed the same problem myself. I believe that TSR probably
did things this way to keep from having to make the rules too complex
(ie. different ones for humans and demi-humans). At the Gen Con
"broadcast" in realaudio for birthright, one thing that was discussed
was the probability of TSR ruther differentiating the magic of humans
and elves...perhaps this will include the use or possession of
bloodlines as well.
However, there is perhaps a logical explanation to this. What if
normal (ie. non blooded elves, humans, dwarves) could be regents and
rule domains (and in case of elves use sources and ley lines). These
people had to live before and rule themselves before Deismaar (in fact,
the human tribes were fleeing a huge evil empire in Aduria were they
not?), without bloodlines. So let's just assume non-blooded people can
rule. But what if bloodlines (given that they are the power of a
departed deity) in fact give so much advantage (just think of what a
bloodline implies) over non-blooded people that they just couldn't
compete. A blooded character would win any competition with a
non-blooded character. After all, the powers gain their strength
through the worship of their followers right? Therefore, it stands to
reason that a character with a bloodline might naturally have greater
ability to get a non-blooded character to "follow" them. In this case,
the fact that dwarven priests need the blood of a human power to rule a
dwarven temple does not seem so inane. The blooded dwarven priest
simply has this incredible reserve of power that a non-blooded dwarf can
never have...

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

DURKS95@aol.com wrote:

> If I recall correctly, Un-blooded elves can cast true magic.
>
> Quote form the Rulebook
> "True magic include all other schools fo magic, but only elves,
> half-elves
> and blooded humans can command it's arcane power."
>
> This gives me the idea that both elves and half-elves need not be
> blooded to
> cast true magic.

You are correct there. However, the issue is caused by some
passages in the Blood Enemies sourcebook which indicate that elves (in
the past, before Deismaar) seemed to have the ability to use ley lines
and sources (this before there were any bloodlines). However the
rulebook states that a bloodline in necessary to use realm magic (ie.
ley lines and sources). These two entries seem to be inconsistent. Can
elves use ley lines without a bloodline??

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:

> Irda, Githzerai, drow, etc. DO NOT BELONG ON CERILIA! The land
> supplies the
> power, Ruornil governs it, and the only reason elves are able to use
> all
> magic without necessarily being blooded, Is because they are CERILIAN
> elves... they are closely linked with their land. The other races
> would be
> completely subject to the rules of Cerilian magic, after all, Ruornil
> and
> 'the land' like it the way it is, and aren't going to be giving away
> freebies
> to offworlders... On the Shadow World seminar recording, it says that
> any
> planar travel to Cerilia deposits you in the Shadow World, and if you
> think
> native Cerilians have a hard time there, offworlders would be zombie
> chow.
>
> ...(V)agnus |{haine...

Oh I know that they are not meant on Cerilia...I was simply
wondering what would happen to a planewalker who stopped by to
visit...What I was unclear on was whether or not it is humans (and other
non-magical races) that can't use true magic without a bloodline or if
it is anyone who is not an elf (including highly magical races visiting
temporarily from other planes).

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

breye@earthlink.net wrote:

> >
> > What about other races that are heavily magical though?? Irda,
> > drow, githzerai, aasimar (half-human, half-aasimon, from
> Planescape).
> > Think these would use true magic??
> > Is there any birthright product where the lifespan of Cerilian
> > half-elves has been shown?? A normal elf lives 500-700 years, while
> a
> > human lives 100-140. A half-elf lives about 250 years....but in
> > Cerilia, the elves are immortal. Does a lifespan of about 400-500
> years
> > make sense for half-elves??
> >
> > Paul L.Ummmm....Birthright elves are immortal I thought.

Yeah, I know that they're immortal...what I was doing was comparing the
lifespan of "standard" elves adn humans and how that results in the
lifespan of a "standard half-elf", with the immortal lifespans of
Cerilian elves, and how long-lived a Cerilian half-elf would be.

Paul L.

[Darkstar]

DURKS95@aol.com wrote:
>
> If I recall correctly, Un-blooded elves can cast true magic.
>
> Quote form the Rulebook
> "True magic include all other schools fo magic, but only elves, half-elves
> and blooded humans can command it's arcane power."
>
Doesn't it say right underneath that
"Wizards must be born with the stuff of magic in their veins to wield
spells of 3rd level or higher from all schools of magic"

I have always read this to mean that Elves, and Half-Elves could cast
true magic, just not as well as blooded characters anymore. That is how
I have been running it in my campaign.

NOTE: Magicians can only cast spells up to 2nd level from other spheres
so this is different from them.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss
Page Updates: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/update.html

From the Darkness we came.
And to the Darkness we will return.

[Paul Lefebvre]

MagnusKhn@aol.com wrote:

>
>
> Regardless of what Tolkien wrote for his NOVELS, this is a GAME, and
> in BR
> the elves are well balanced in mechanics, while preserving their
> traditional
> style. Why can't elves from FR be this well done? My first warning
> sign of a
> powergamer is finding out that they play elves (especially Grey and
> Drow)
> constantly, but have never even tried to play a halfling or gnome, and
>
> sometimes not even a dwarf. In BR, playing an elf means that you have
> a big
> roleplaying challenge cut out for you, something that a true
> ROLE-player
> usually enjoys. Irda are even worse in DL, because they are even MORE
> powerful than elves, with fewer disadvantages! Not that elves have any
> really
> bad disadvantage in the generic worlds... -1 Con, and a personality so
>
> stereotyped it's sickening to me to meet 'yet another snobby, arrogant
>
> elf'...
> The whole arguement about NUMBERS of a race doesn't even apply, you
> play 1
> character, not a whole race, so the game must be balanced (at least
> mechanics-wise) on an individual basis. I am not concerned with humans
> being
> the BEST race in any setting, I am concerned that, for game purposes,
> there
> should NOT be a "best" race at all...
>
> ...(V)agnus |{haine...

We're going at this from totally different directions then. I'm
personally not even looking at the game mechanics of the whole thing.
It doesn't matter to me for this discussion. I was simply looking at
the whole world view. From that angle, sometimes things aren't fair and
the elves or dwarves or woozits or whatever might be on top of the other
races. In terms of game mechanics, you are correct. In many of the
systems there are unbalanced races....however, usually, it is the later,
add-on rules in some handbook or other which make the race more
powerful...
Ever see a thri-kreen from Dark Sun?? Ever try using them with
every optional rule in the Thri-Kreen of athas book? It's just not
funny. Not only that, but it wrecks the game for the other players who
have to sit by and watch this giant talking bug make hamburger out of
the party's enemies. But the key to remember is that these rules are
optional. The Drow of the Underdark book allowed PCs to be drow. Now
unfortunately, the drow are really powerful characters that shouldn't be
used intact in a campaign with normal characters (I used one once in 8
years in a campaign in Undermountain and the Sword Coast), she could do
everything so it wasn't that exciting). A drow on the surface loses
innate spells, magic resistance, is practically blind, and is hated by
EVERYONE he meets. MAYBE, just maybe, that's grounds to allow one in a
campaign. But who the heck would he play with? An elf? A dwarf?
Halflings will most likely run screaming. Humans might accept one, but
he'd run into trouble every town he visited. However, if you played a
campaign in Menzoberranzan, that's a different matter. If everyone has
the exact same powers, then there's no advantage. I think that a lot of
these races are created for their novelty (ie. Irda, Drow) etc and you
wouldn't want to use one all the time.
Concerning the grey elves, I've never played one, but looking at the
elven handbook, I see no reason to think that they are unbalanced...from
what I remember, they don't have ANY powers more than standard elves
do. Maybe in Greyhawk, they are allowed more abilities or something,
but then I've never played in that campaign world.
I don't agree that someone can't be a good role player without
having tried to play a gnome or halfling..I think it's all a matter of
personal preference. The important thing in this game, is to have fun.
And if having fun involves, using an elf, a dwarf, human, gnome, or
centipede, do so.
Concerning power gaming, I think the problem lies less with race
than in questions of alignment. Players who play characters of evil
alignment tend to unbalance a party. As a DM, I set a strict limit by
not allowing any of my players to play evil characters. I've seen and
heard many people defend the position of playing an evil character. All
I've seen it as is an excuse to bully other player characters, gain
magic the easy way (mugging NPCs etc). And then these players get upset
when the city guard or some paladin come along and take them down.
That, to me, is a real problem with powergaming.

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

Darkstar wrote:

> DURKS95@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > If I recall correctly, Un-blooded elves can cast true magic.
> >
> > Quote form the Rulebook
> > "True magic include all other schools fo magic, but only elves,
> half-elves
> > and blooded humans can command it's arcane power."
> >
> Doesn't it say right underneath that
> "Wizards must be born with the stuff of magic in their veins to wield
> spells of 3rd level or higher from all schools of magic"
>
> I have always read this to mean that Elves, and Half-Elves could cast
> true magic, just not as well as blooded characters anymore. That is
> how
> I have been running it in my campaign.
>
> NOTE: Magicians can only cast spells up to 2nd level from other
> spheres
> so this is different from them.
>
> --
> Ian Hoskins

True magic is all spells of 3rd level or higher in all schools.
Lesser magic is greater divination and illusion, and all other schools
up to 2nd level. However, realm magic is the realm spells (magic that
requires a source holding and/or ley lines to cast). Non-blooded elves
and half-elves, according to the rulebook, can use true magic.
Non-blooded humans are limited to lesser magic. A bloodline is required
to use realm magic...elves use true magic (without bloodlines) just as
easily as blooded humans use it.

Paul L.

[MagnusKhn@aol.co]

Well, thank you all for your ideas and comments, the fresh perspectives
helped alot! I think I have a way to resolve alot of things that seemed
inconsistent before.

...(V)agnus |{haine...

[MHahn59022@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-08-22 03:18:14 EDT, you write:

>
The High Mage Aelies, who is a half-elf, seems to be immortal, and he spends
most of his time out of the elven forests.

[alex glemzu]

Magic in the heart.

[MagnusKhn@aol.co]

Elves CAN use TRUE magic without bloodlines, but REALM magic is a different
story. TRUE magic is spell level 3-9 of Abjuration, Evocation, Alteration,
Conjuration, Necromancy, and Enchantment. Levels 1 & 2 of those schools, and
the entire schools of Divination and Illusion are LOW magic. REALM magic are
those spells specific to birthright, useable only by a REGENT (who, of
course, is also blooded)

...(V)agnus |{haine...

[DURKS95@aol.co]

I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault, but
don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.

[¼Õ ´©¸®(Son, Nuree]

$)C> From: MHahn59022@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blood Enemies Questions
>
> they live in the Elven forests. If they leave and live in the realms of
> men then they will start to age. >>
>
> The High Mage Aelies, who is a half-elf, seems to be immortal, and he
spends
> most of his time out of the elven forests.

In my campaign, High Mage Aelies has the Long Life blood ability. I said to
my players so he was nearly immortal. I don't think half-elves are
immortal.

- - Son, Nuree

[George Chatzipetros]

----
From: DURKS95@aol.com
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: =D3=DC=E2=E2=E1=F4=EF, 23 =C1=F5=E3=EF=FD=F3=F4=EF=F5 1997 3:04 =EC=
=EC
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blood Enemies Questions

>I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
>commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault,
but
>don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.

And Birthright is just the right seting for someone to be evil. I mean,ho=
w
many good monarchs do u know to exist in medieval europe? Being greedy,
wanting to asume more power is only natural when you're a wealthy king, a=
n
influential priest or a major guildmaster.

George, neon@mail.otenet.gr

"I've got to get me a gun. Guns made everything right" -- R. Valentin
"You can't fight against the future. Time is on our side" -- W.E.
Gladstone

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/8046 -- The Transcendence Freeware
RPG

[DURKS95@aol.co]

Well in that case it sounds good enough for me, To try to control evil is
foolish. But personally I like playing some evil guys, they're fun, and NO i
usually don't kill me own party, Is it not smarter to let them die by the
enemy than by yourslef, It's so much easier, and a lot less messier. And they
help you survive, being evil doens't mean being stupid.

[Michael-John Almon]

>
>
> ----
>From: DURKS95@aol.com
>To: birthright@MPGN.COM
>Date: ÓÜââáôï, 23 Áõãïýóôïõ 1997 3:04 ìì
>Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blood Enemies Questions
>
>>I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
>>commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault,
>but
>>don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.
>
>And Birthright is just the right seting for someone to be evil. I mean,how
>many good monarchs do u know to exist in medieval europe? Being greedy,
>wanting to asume more power is only natural when you're a wealthy king, an
>influential priest or a major guildmaster.
>
>George, neon@mail.otenet.gr

In all honesty I think that is hardly fair. I'm sure that one
could name off a number of "good" monarchs. The only problem is that Good
is a relative term. There were sincere influential priests you know. A
major guildmaster is of course going to try to get more money, it's in the
job description. It's not so much a mark of evil sometimes, as it is
political pride and Imperialism. I have no problem with seeing an
expansionistic and good monarch at the same time. Mind you as a DM I allow
evil characters, especially in BR. The way I look at it, an Evil character
is more likely to betray you, a good character is not less likely to
declare war (But often with reason over just greed). So I suppose the
argument has come full circle, so I'll stop now.


- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* In Ore Veritas, * Dounoc'h eo kaloun ar merc'hed *
* In Corde Sinceritas * 'vit ar mor douna euz ar bed *
* -Almon Motto * - The Deepest Sea *

[Guest]

Joao Medeiros wrote:
>
> At 07:42 23/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
> >commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault, but
> >don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.
>
> I don't kill him because he is evil. I use his evil nature, his lust
> for power, to lure him to his own doom. Through this method he will gain
> great power in the beginning, but in the end it will be all for nothing.
> Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
>
> -Joao Medeiros
> lcgm@elogica.com.br

That's it, if you play fairly an evil character will have the same
chances of a good character to fall in disgrace...evil doesn't mean
stupid, and a guy that cannot resist to temptations is not evil, he's
an idiot. An evil character, to me, is just somebody who only cares
about
his own plans and needs but if he wants to survive he has to learn that
the only safe way to use people is by not letting them know you're using
them...the ancient and noble art of the backstab in a dark alley...where
nobody can witness what happened. Probably sooner or later he's going to
be caught but hey, probably sooner or later that Pitfiend will use the
valiant paladin as toothpaste.

[breye@earthlink.ne]

M. wrote:
>
> Joao Medeiros wrote:
> >
> > At 07:42 23/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
> > >I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if he
> > >commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own fault, but
> > >don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.
> >
> > I don't kill him because he is evil. I use his evil nature, his lust
> > for power, to lure him to his own doom. Through this method he will gain
> > great power in the beginning, but in the end it will be all for nothing.
> > Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
> >
> > -Joao Medeiros
> > lcgm@elogica.com.br
>
> That's it, if you play fairly an evil character will have the same
> chances of a good character to fall in disgrace...evil doesn't mean
> stupid, and a guy that cannot resist to temptations is not evil, he's
> an idiot. An evil character, to me, is just somebody who only cares
> about
> his own plans and needs but if he wants to survive he has to learn that
> the only safe way to use people is by not letting them know you're using
> them...the ancient and noble art of the backstab in a dark alley...where
> nobody can witness what happened. Probably sooner or later he's going to
> be caught but hey, probably sooner or later that Pitfiend will use the
> valiant paladin as toothpaste.
> That can be one of the best things about playing an (at least initially)
evil character. Roleplaying thru alignment changes can be some of the
most challenging bits of rlolplaying you can do, especially for an evil
character who is becoming enlightened and sheding his evil ways.

Bryan

[Paul Lefebvre]

Joao Medeiros wrote:

> At 07:42 23/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >I don't think you should punish someone for just being evil, yes if
> he
> >commits an evil act that gets him in trouble, well it's his own
> fault, but
> >don't just kill his character because he wanted an evil guy.
>
> I don't kill him because he is evil. I use his evil nature,
> his lust
> for power, to lure him to his own doom. Through this method he will
> gain
> great power in the beginning, but in the end it will be all for
> nothing.
> Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
>
> -Joao Medeiros
> lcgm@elogica.com.br

I agree...but that causes hard feelings in my opinion. Thus I just
don't allow them. They simply seem a cheap excuse to be a powergamer.
Whenever I allow one "just this once" it ends up being abused and
sometimes other players characters get murdered (of course the evil
character makes sure to make it look like he's innocent....like when an
evil fighter ACCIDENTALLY locked a knight of the sword in a chamber with
two of Lord Soth's skeletaal warriors (where the poor knight was
promptly chopped up into hamburger), or the mage who fireballed his own
party after a tough battle in Ravenloft that left the others weakened
(and thus killed the whole party excepting himself). I know that
results in Ravenloft Powers checks and such....but small consolation
considering all the other players need to roll up new characters. It
was nasty experiences like these that led me to choose not to allow evil
characters in a campaign.

Paul L.