gold bar value and unit/constru

[Harri Kemppainen]

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Noah Robert Zerbe wrote:

> This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to time
> in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to arise.
> The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost 2GB to
> muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
> cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are armed
> only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be much
> higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @ 75gp
> each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.
>
> Similar problems arise in other actions, like fortification (even the
> largest of castles would cost only 200,000gp, a real bargain!)
>
> Has anyone else dealt with this problem? I have toyed with the idea of
> changing the exchange rate (1GB=10,000gp), but then regents have
> outrageous personal wealth.

Actually regents in come is grain, animal, timber, ore, wool etc. Actual
money is just minor part of regents incomes. To get sizable summs of money
regent has to sell something his fields, quarryes or mines produce and
actuall sum of money he gets is much less than products value.

So real value of 1 GB could be more like 10,000gp, but when it is
transformed to hard currency, it's only 2,000gp.

- ---
Harri Kemppainen cshake@kastanja.uta.fi
Java-programmer Attila B288b
Information Studies, University of Tampere +358 3 215 7632

[Harri Kemppainen]

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Darkstar wrote:

> What about the Siren's Realm in Blood Enemies. It states there that she
> has a unit of irregulars (200) + her guards (75 men) both of which are
> given war cards. And the Magian's Riders (12). So in those case there
> are units which number less than 200 men. I would suggest that other
> like the knights of Haelyn might also be less than 200 in number.

Number of men cannot be 200 in all units. It's unrealistic. Someone
suggested earlier in this thread that unit has men or monsters equal to
200 HD. I like that idea. Levy consists of 1/2 HD farmers and has 400 men
in it. Unit of giants has 10 HD monsters and has 20 of them. If there were
really 200 Giants what would stop unit like that.
I would add a small refinement to this idea. Some units can sustain more
than one hits. I quess it reflects better armor, better training etc, but
it could also reflect higher number of hit points unit has.

Draving lavy from province lowers province level. Higher levels mean 10
thousands of people. How can drafting 5 levy (1000 men by original
rules) from level 5 province really drop population by 10 000 or so
(province level 4-6 has population of 10 000 - 40 000)? if province is
level sevet it means drafting 1 400 drops population with several 10 000s.

If unit has that 200 HD and hits reflect training, armor, morale and extra
HD unit has then levy should have maybee 400HD, because of their weak
armor and nonexistent training etc. It would make 800 men in levy unit.
Drafting 4000 men out of 20 000 population takes away considerable part of
working power in province, enough to drop it one level.

It's a long message already and ihave somethings to and, but I have to go
to work.

- ---
Harri Kemppainen cshake@kastanja.uta.fi
Java-programmer Attila B288b
Information Studies, University of Tampere +358 3 215 7632

[Bearcat]

>Number of men cannot be 200 in all units. It's unrealistic. Someone
>suggested earlier in this thread that unit has men or monsters equal to
>200 HD. I like that idea. Levy consists of 1/2 HD farmers and has 400 men
>in it. Unit of giants has 10 HD monsters and has 20 of them. If there were
>really 200 Giants what would stop unit like that.
>I would add a small refinement to this idea. Some units can sustain more
>than one hits. I quess it reflects better armor, better training etc, but
>it could also reflect higher number of hit points unit has.
>
>Draving lavy from province lowers province level. Higher levels mean 10
>thousands of people. How can drafting 5 levy (1000 men by original
>rules) from level 5 province really drop population by 10 000 or so
>(province level 4-6 has population of 10 000 - 40 000)? if province is
>level sevet it means drafting 1 400 drops population with several 10 000s.

If all the units were based upon a 200HD equivalent then they would
all be the same in combat values. The differences in the combat values of
the Units represents the different strengths and weaknesses of 200 hundred
soldiers.

-

[Harri Kemppainen]

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Bearcat wrote:

> If all the units were based upon a 200HD equivalent then they would
> all be the same in combat values. The differences in the combat values of
> the Units represents the different strengths and weaknesses of 200 hundred
> soldiers.

I think you are oversimplifying. If we compare unit of 200 knights and and
200 levy 200 knights shoud be much more formidable force than it is now.
My point is that even though knight unit has lesser number of men they
have better armor, better arms, better training, better commanders, more
experience, better morale, better discipline etc. All this taken in
account fewer than 200 knights in unit should have better combat values
than 200 (or 400) men in levy unit.

A counter question. What values would you give for a unit of giants, for
200 giants.

- ---
Harri Kemppainen cshake@kastanja.uta.fi
Java-programmer Attila B288b
Information Studies, University of Tampere +358 3 215 7632

[trustno1@atcon.co]

>This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to time
>in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to arise.
>The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost 2GB to
>muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
>cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are armed
>only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be much
>higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @ 75gp
>each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.
>
>Similar problems arise in other actions, like fortification (even the
>largest of castles would cost only 200,000gp, a real bargain!)
>
>Has anyone else dealt with this problem? I have toyed with the idea of
>changing the exchange rate (1GB=10,000gp), but then regents have
>outrageous personal wealth.

Yup.
I changed the muster and maintenance costs of units.... (and kept
everything else the same).

-

[breye@earthlink.ne]

trustno1@atcon.com wrote:
>
> >This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to time
> >in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to arise.
> >The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost 2GB to
> >muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
> >cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are armed
> >only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be much
> >higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @ 75gp
> >each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.

You forget one thing, regents are not going to the local Kmart (or whatever)
and placing an order off the rack like adventurers do, He goes over to his
armorers and tells them that he needs 200 suits of mail and 200 swords.
the regent them pays for the raw materials and the wages for the smiths, and
some of that has already been paid during domain mantainence.

[ALCATRAZZ2@aol.co]

I like your reasonong... ;-)

[Paul Lefebvre]

Joel Parrish wrote:

> ======== Original Message ========
> On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Darkstar wrote:
> > Of course maybe it is already done, that is why outfitting 200
> soldiers
> > with armour and weapons can cost as little as 4000 gp.
> >
>
> This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to
> time
> in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to
> arise.
> The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost
> 2GB to
> muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
> cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are armed
>
> only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be
> much
> higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @
> 75gp
> each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.
>
> Similar problems arise in other actions, like fortification (even the
> largest of castles would cost only 200,000gp, a real bargain!)
>
> Has anyone else dealt with this problem? I have toyed with the idea
> of
> changing the exchange rate (1GB=10,000gp), but then regents have
> outrageous personal wealth.
>
> Noah
>
> ****
> ************************************************** ********************
>
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
> ======== Fwd by: Joel Parrish ========
> Remember that the gp prices given in the PH are not set in stone. They
> are
> averages. A broadsword bought in an area deprived of metals or in a
> state of
> war may fetch upwards of 20gp. The sword might only cost 1gp of
> materials,
> but a profit must be made. Also, given that these are kingdoms, not
> individuals buying them, some "volume discount" would apply. If you
> were a
> lowly blacksmith and your REGENT came to you, requesting you create
> weapons
> for his army, not only would you be highly honored, but more than
> likely you
> would not charge him the price you would charge any old fighter that
> walked
> up to your booth/store. Also, most who work for regents are
> compansated in
> other ways beside gold, such as access to the King's work areas, etc.
> Hope
> that helps.
>

I'm not so sure of this....anyone remember the "$20000 for a
toilet lid, $10000 for a toothbrush" line from Independance Day? Don't
corporations selling products to the government generally charge more
than they do to private sector customers??

Paul L.

[Paul Lefebvre]

Dustin Evermore wrote:

> Noah Robert Zerbe wrote:
> >This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to
>
> time
> >in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to
> arise.
> >The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost
> 2GB
> to
> >muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
> >cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are
> armed
> >only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be
> much
> >higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @
>
> 75gp
> >each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.
> >
>
> Actually, in many feudal societies, the warriors were expected to
> provide
> their own arms and armor. The muster cost is for getting people to
> sign
> up and a start at helping them pay off their armoring needs. And look
> at
> the maintenence of up to 2000 gp just for a unit of scouts, experts in
> the
> field of scrounging and hunting. This would indicate a nice salary
> for
> their skills, and some extra cash to help finish paying for armor,
> mounts,
> etc.
>
> Also, I tend to think of units as more 200 HIT DICE rather than
> individuals. This way, a unit of Elves, ancient and experienced,
> might only
> consist of 50-100 individuals. Or perhaps a unit would consist of
> only 20
> giants. Using this idea with a group of knights (AT LEAST 1 hd each,
> possibly
> more if you use the MM for reference on knights PLUS a mount of around
> 3
> hd) you begin to realize that those 50 knights are earning quite a lot
> and
> should have that gear paid for in no time! After all, taking into
> account
> that the leaders will have more hd than the common troops you realize
> that a unit may not have quite so many individuals in it after all.
>
> Please, give me some feed back on this!
> -DE
>

I think that this actually makes sense. Unfortunately, I believe
that the book does clearly state that a unit is 200 soldiers....could
that be averages??

Paul L.

[Sepsis]

At 12:16 AM 9/2/97 -0400, Paul Lefebvre(banshee16@comnet.ca)wrote:
>
> I'm not so sure of this....anyone remember the "$20000 for a
>toilet lid, $10000 for a toothbrush" line from Independance Day? Don't
>corporations selling products to the government generally charge more
>than they do to private sector customers??
>

Good point, but wrong economic system. A modern free enterprise system is
based on "Laissez Faire". The type of system used in a medieval society is
more of a "Planned Economy" where the goverment can walk up and say, "I'm
paying this...and you will gladly take it." This is a massive over
simplification, but you get the idea. Most leaders have to keep thier hands
in the economy or else risk losing thier power. We have seen what happens
when a Guild Regent has unrestricted access to his gold. He can become
wealthy beyond belief in short order, so of course the "Law of the land"
steps in and takes thier share. IMHO, the value of GBs is fine the way it is.

Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

[Darkstar]

Paul Lefebvre wrote:

> I think that this actually makes sense. Unfortunately, I believe
> that the book does clearly state that a unit is 200 soldiers....could
> that be averages??

What about the Siren's Realm in Blood Enemies. It states there that she
has a unit of irregulars (200) + her guards (75 men) both of which are
given war cards. And the Magian's Riders (12). So in those case there
are units which number less than 200 men. I would suggest that other
like the knights of Haelyn might also be less than 200 in number.


- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
ICQ: 2938300
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss
Page Updates: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/update.html

From the Darkness we came.
And to the Darkness we will return.

[Carson Atwood]

At 12:16 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Joel Parrish wrote:
>
>> ======== Original Message ========
>> On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Darkstar wrote:
>> > Of course maybe it is already done, that is why outfitting 200
>> soldiers
>> > with armour and weapons can cost as little as 4000 gp.
>> >
>>
>> This brings up an interesting question which has come up from time to
>> time
>> in my campaign. If one GB=2000 gp, then numerous problems seem to
>> arise.
>> The first is unit muster costs. For example, regular infantry cost
>> 2GB to
>> muster. Assuming there are 200 soldiers per unit, and that the only
>> cost is to equip them (no pay, training, etc.) and that they are armed
>>
>> only with broadsword and chainmail, then the cost per unit should be
>> much
>> higher. (200 broadswords @ 10gp each=2000gp, 200 suits of chainmail @
>> 75gp
>> each=15,000gp, for a total of 17,000gp or 8 1/2GB.
>>
>> Similar problems arise in other actions, like fortification (even the
>> largest of castles would cost only 200,000gp, a real bargain!)
>>
>> Has anyone else dealt with this problem? I have toyed with the idea
>> of
>> changing the exchange rate (1GB=10,000gp), but then regents have
>> outrageous personal wealth.
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> ****
>> ************************************************** ********************
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
>> line
>> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>> ======== Fwd by: Joel Parrish ========
>> Remember that the gp prices given in the PH are not set in stone. They
>> are
>> averages. A broadsword bought in an area deprived of metals or in a
>> state of
>> war may fetch upwards of 20gp. The sword might only cost 1gp of
>> materials,
>> but a profit must be made. Also, given that these are kingdoms, not
>> individuals buying them, some "volume discount" would apply. If you
>> were a
>> lowly blacksmith and your REGENT came to you, requesting you create
>> weapons
>> for his army, not only would you be highly honored, but more than
>> likely you
>> would not charge him the price you would charge any old fighter that
>> walked
>> up to your booth/store. Also, most who work for regents are
>> compansated in
>> other ways beside gold, such as access to the King's work areas, etc.
>> Hope
>> that helps.
>>
>
> I'm not so sure of this....anyone remember the "$20000 for a
>toilet lid, $10000 for a toothbrush" line from Independance Day? Don't
>corporations selling products to the government generally charge more
>than they do to private sector customers??
>
>Paul L.

I believe that each regent has his own personal force of blacksmiths and
bowyer/fletchers. I always assumed that it was these guys who did most of
the work.

>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>