Various empires

[lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon]

LOL! That is certainly an appropriate response for my
overgeneralization.

O.K. In any culture or civilization there will be forces pulling
things together and forces pulling things apart. Some of these will
be technological, some geographical, some cultural. This is on topic!
Empire-building is a going Birthright concern!

I'm too tried to deal thoughtfully with this, but a very preliminary
thought is that Rome got is start as a major state by the combined
military improvements of the maniples of the legion, and by the
political genius of incorporating conquered cities as citizens, and a
source for new legions, rather than as conquered and suitable for
pillaging territories. Eventually the temptation to treat conquests
as spoils rather than as new recruits became overwhelming ... my Roman
Republican history is dusty at the moment, but I think sometime
between the 3rd Punic War, and the start of formal Empire the new
conquests gradually became more
something-to-plunder-and-enrich-sentators and less new citizens who
would stand shoulder to shoulder with you againt the rest of the
world.

Birthright application is: How do you treat and assimilate new
provinces? As conquered territory? As second class citizens? How do
you persuade them to raise reliable units for you, especially against
their former lord?



On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:51:43 -0600, you wrote:


>
>Which wasn't possible before gunpowder; only petty empires like the =
Roman,
>Chinese, and Mongol empires were possible. 8-).

[Neil Barnes]

On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Lyndon Baugh wrote:
>
> I'm too tried to deal thoughtfully with this, but a very preliminary
> thought is that Rome got is start as a major state by the combined
> military improvements of the maniples of the legion, and by the
> political genius of incorporating conquered cities as citizens, and a
> source for new legions, rather than as conquered and suitable for
> pillaging territories.

Actually the Italians had to fight the Romans in the Social Wars to get
recognised as Roman citizens. The basic reasons behind the success of
the Roman empire was it's military superiority and it's logistical
skill. The romans were very good administrators. Oh yes, and they gave
Legion veterans substantial land grants in conquored territories.

> Birthright application is: How do you treat and assimilate new
> provinces? As conquered territory? As second class citizens? How do
> you persuade them to raise reliable units for you, especially against
> their former lord?

Macciavelli is especially good on this. To paraphrase he recommends
moving to conquered territories to improve their loyalty & arming the
people (to show that you're not afraid of them) or sending a psycotic
lieutenant in to brutally crush all dissnt, then executing him for
tyranny once all potential opposition in the province has gone - the
populace will regard you as their saviour.

There's more, but I can't remember most of it off the top of my head.

neil

[mikhoc@earthlink.net (Mi]

>Then we have another way to get the lojality, but it takes a bit longer and
>will get your newly conqured people to be quite pissed on you and if they have
>enough strength they will prolly revolt. You give your vassales the right to
>spend the night with every just married woman in the "county" which he
>controlls. This has a latin name, but I have forgotten it, and I don't think
>that TSR will ever allow this happen in their novels or game suppliment.
>

prima nocte

Mike
mikhoc@earthlink.net

[James Ruhland]

>
> To have a low tax level in the newly conquered areas, this usually does
make
> that people from the older parts of the country mves into the new areas
and at
> the same time gives you a higher popularity among the newly conquered
people.
> Granting land for lojal nobles in the new areas will assure you that you
will
> have military forces in the region which will support you in case there
would
> be a rebelion.

This might make you somewhat popular in the new areas (depends,
though--folks won't like paying *any* taxes to a foreign invader from
another culture), but it is unlikely to make you beloved in your old
territories.

> Building new churches usually gives you another way to control the people
> (during the midievel time people listen quite much to what the priest
said and
> I guess it's much the same in a fantasy world) without the people notice
that
> you control their lifes even more.

If you can get 'em to follow your diety without forced conversions, this is
a good way to go.

> Then we have another way to get the lojality, but it takes a bit longer
and
> will get your newly conqured people to be quite pissed on you and if they
have
> enough strength they will prolly revolt. You give your vassales the right
to
> spend the night with every just married woman in the "county" which he
> controlls. This has a latin name, but I have forgotten it, and I don't
think
> that TSR will ever allow this happen in their novels or game suppliment.
>
Even if you did this (what you're thinking of, I believe, is the midieval
practice of "Prima Nocta") it would depend on who raised the children;
children raised in the mother's family would be *highly* unlikely to have
any respect or love for the person (and the government who supports 'em)
that raped their mother.

> There is prolly many other ways you could use, but thise are which I have
seen
> in those historybooks which I have read. Nothing prevents you from leting
a
> king to give away great amounts of money to the pessants in the newly
conqured
> areas, but this may make the rest of the population mad.
>
Best way is probably your suggestion for replacing the old aristocracy with
dudes loyal to you, A La William the Conqueror. The people might not be
happy with your rule, but their will be little they can do about it. Land
grants to folks from your old territories to come colonize the new lands is
also a good way to go (and simmilar to the noble thingie, but with folks of
lower classes as an aditional support.)

[Tripp Elliott]

Trizt wrote:

> Then we have another way to get the lojality, but it takes a bit longer and
> will get your newly conqured people to be quite pissed on you and if they have
> enough strength they will prolly revolt. You give your vassales the right to
> spend the night with every just married woman in the "county" which he
> controlls. This has a latin name, but I have forgotten it, and I don't think
> that TSR will ever allow this happen in their novels or game suppliment.

I believe it is referred to as Prima Nachte, or First Night.

Most people first learned of this barbarous custom in the movie
Braveheart. It is very much a historical fact that the British employed
this against the Scots, and the Irish.

Tripp Elliott(Yep, Elliott is Scottish, we're still a little ticked
about it)

[Trizt]

On 29-Okt-97, James Ruhland (jruhlconob@sprynet.com) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - Various empires:

I wasn't finished when I managed to send the previus mail....

- ->Even if you did this (what you're thinking of, I believe, is the midieval
- ->practice of "Prima Nocta") it would depend on who raised the children;
- ->children raised in the mother's family would be *highly* unlikely to have
- ->any respect or love for the person (and the government who supports 'em)
- ->that raped their mother.
Yes, the children would usually be raised by the mother, but it would make the
child to wonder about his father and would be suspected by the others in the
society if he/she are a spy for the conquerers or/and getting some kind of
priviliges from the conqurers. This makes that the conqurered people will get
somewhat more eager to start a rebelion as they will not be sure what thise
"bastards" would do.
After some generations thise half-conqueres would feel more as citicents of
the new country than the old.

Prima Nocte has the disadvantige that the half-concurers can feel hatred
against the conqurers and make the rest of the populatione more supressed by
the occupiers which can lead to a really bloody rebelion. We can see how it
did go in Scottland where Prima Nocte was practised (it wasn't the one and
only reasion for the scottish rebelion, but surely it helped many males to
join the rebelion).

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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