How have the Humans won against the elves?

[AngriestAngel]

First Hi at everyone on this great page!
This is my first post, but im reading posts here since one year. I have collected nearly all Birthright products per Ebay because i was unfortunately too young when they could be bought normally. My activity in Birthright had stopped when i began studying but im visiting this site nearly every day.
There is one thing i never understood:
How could the human tribes ever force the elves back in their forests? In difference to the elves humans couldn`t use true magic, which is in my view much more destructive than priestly magic. I think in one post i read that maybe some Vos devotees of Vorynn were able to use the lower grades of true magic, but there must have been much more elven wizards against this handfull blessed by Vorynn and they had acces to the higher grades.
So how have the humans won?

[bulletmagnet]

two words to that answer "Clerical magic" hard to hold back a army if they can heal and you cant....

Hope that helps. :D

[geeman]

At 10:54 PM 4/2/2004 +0200, AngriestAngel wrote:



> First Hi at everyone on this great page! This is my first post, but

> im reading posts here since one year. I have collected nearly all

> Birthright products per Ebay because i was unfortunately too young when

> they could be bought normally. My activity in Birthright had stopped when

> i began studying but im visiting this site nearly every day.There is one

> thing i never understood:How could the human tribes ever force the elves

> back in their forests? In difference to the elves humans couldn`t use

> true magic, which is in my view much more destructive than priestly

> magic. I think in one post i read that maybe some Vos devotees of Vorynn

> were able to use the lower grades of true magic, but there must have been

> much more elven wizards against this handfull blessed by Vorynn and they

> had acces to the higher grades.So how have the humans won?



This is one of those perennial BR topics that doesn`t have a lot of basis

in the published materials, I`m afraid. Logically, elves are seriously

advantaged over humans (and other Cerilian races) not only in that arcane

magic is generally more destructive than divine, but also in that they are

immortal so the proportion of highly powerful (levelled) characters in

their population would be substantially larger, and they have had a

presence on the continent for several thousands of years before humans

started straggling in. Elven decline doesn`t have much support in the game

mechanics, and the justification for their decline in the background of the

setting isn`t much more elaborate than simply noting that they are in such

a state. Not a lot of rationale for that decline in the texts. One must

to a certain extent, therefore, either ignore the background materials that

state that elves are in decline or come up with some other rationalizations.



First of all, in regards to the power of arcane vs. divine magics. The BR

materials do say that divine magics were the power that gave humans an

advantage over elves when settling Cerilia. Bluntly speaking, this doesn`t

really add up. Other Cerilian races (goblins, dwarves, even gnolls and

giants) had divine magics long before humans showed up. If divine magics

were such an influence then it would have been an influence before. Also,

as you note, divine magics are generally less powerful (or, at least, less

destructive or influential) than arcane magics, so the issue idea doesn`t

make a lot of sense.



IMO what`s important about the comments regarding human use of divine

magics, however, is not their truth value. Rather, it`s that such

statements are a commentary on human beliefs and attitudes rather than a

factual presentation of events. Much of the original BR materials were

written from the human (particularly Anuirean) POV, and even much of the

rest of the published materials were colour commentary, not necessarily

factual. From the faithful, gods-fearing human perspective, overcoming the

elves is a divine gift, most clearly manifest in the ability of their laity

to cast divine magics. The fact that divine magics don`t really account

for human dominance isn`t really a factor--humans _believe_ that their

divine magics are why they have been so successful. The godless elves, on

the other hand, are failing because of their lack of belief. It`s a sort

of divine/cosmic justice perspective that colours the biased outlook of humans.



More logical reasons for human success are probably things like:



1. Population/birth rate. Humans breed only slightly slower than goblins

(from the elven POV) and their arrival was not so much a migration as it

was an invasion. They came by the tens of thousands, pushing elves away

from the coasts and into dense, forested provinces. Elves might kill

humans by the score... they just keep repopulating. Conversely, elves

never existed in large (by human standards) numbers. We do not know much

about elven fertility, gestation or birth rate, but we can probably assume

that it is slower and lower than human birth rates.



1.1. Along these lines, while it is true that arcane magics are more

powerful than divine magics, an arcane spellcaster is not more powerful

than a dozen divine spellcasters (all other things being equal.) There is

probably a similar percentage of priests among human populations as there

are arcane casters among elves per capita, but with a much larger human

population migrating/invading, the spellcasting ability of priests does

overpower that of a much lower number of wizards.



2. Elves have a connection to trees and the spiritual life of their

forests. It`s possible that the deforestation of Cerilia that humans

wrought physically harms the Sidhe.



3. It`s possible that elves are in decline for reasons that have nothing to

do directly with humanity. That is, before humans ever arrived on

Cerilia`s shores, elves may already have been dwindling. After a period of

relative fertility and population growth, elves are now in decline for

reasons have little if anything to do with human expansion. Elves might

simply have reached an evolutionary dead end, their biological

distinctiveness could be petering out for any number of reasons. However,

for the reasons similar to those of humans who attribute their superiority

to their divine magics, elves might blame humanity for their decline even

though that decline has little or nothing to do with the matter. Humans

are just the current scape goat for elven bitterness.



4. The gods of Cerilia do not directly involve themselves in mortal affairs

any longer... but elves might be a different story. The gods might be

influencing elven populations in any number of ways, and could be aiding

humanity push them back.



Gary

[morgramen]

I would agree with Gary on this one, but would put 99% of the weight behind the birth rate (and sense of time) of humanity compared to the elves. Humans would bred like rats in the eyes of an elf, and if those rats are also able to heal their wounded, they would be alarmingly hard to eradicate.

COnsider that an elf can spend 10 "human years" studying the nature of a falling leaf (or some other "elfie thing".) In the eyes of an elf, those 10 years is a relatively short period of time. To a human, it is likely the nearing the maturity verge of a new generation. (Keep in mind that in medievel life, a child was mature, and either married or fighting by the time they were in their early teens).

So, in this line of thinking, it would not be hard to imagine a battle occuring, and to the elves, a 5 year passage of time would seem like only a week (or a month, etc), but to the humans, they are healed, recovered, and well on the way to repopulating themselves. Then the humans come back for revenge, and the elves are completley caught by this "surprisingly lightning fast reaction".

An single elf would also have to kill a dozen humans (or more) in order to cause a significant detremental effect to their society, while if every second human slew a single elf, it would be devastating to the elven population of the region.

So, relentless assault, rampant repopulation, and healing magics would be the 3 key components of the elvish "defeat" IMO.

[AngriestAngel]

I like the idea of seeing the "superior" clerical magic not as offical explanation from BR Product designers but as a human (fallible) one. It hepls to find another, better and more convincing solution.
1.First of all i disagree with morgramen who "would put 99% of the weight behind the birth rate". As geeman said "Humans breed only slightly slower than goblins", but goblins live much longer on cerilia than humans do. If the hitting argument would be the populatoin/birth rate, Goblins had wiped out every Elven population long bevore the first human set his foot an the earth of cerilia.
2.Same arguement to geemans sceond point- arcane magic against many priests.
He says that "other Cerilian races had divine magics long before humans showed up. If divine magics were such an influence then it would have been an influence before".
In number Goblins were superior and they already had divine magics, so they should have had more priests than the arriving humans. If the number of divine spellcasters is important Goblins must have won again.
Here somebody might argue that goblins arent intelligent and "wise" as Humans, what is right. So there might have been not so many goblin priest because that race isn`t much developable in the sciences of mind. Additionally, we can assume goblins werent able to design weapons, armors, fortifications, siege weapons and woodcutting tools as effective as humans do.
In this theory we can see humans as "middle path" between fast breeding but less civilized humanoids and very slow breeding but high civilezed (and immortal) elves. And the "middle path" seems to be the winning stragety at the moment.
3. If deforestation significant harmed the elves, they had one more impetus to push the humans back where they came from, before the deforestation was foregone that wide- so why didnt they do?
4. The elven race beeing at their "evolutionary dead end" is a dissatisfying and inaccurate arguement for me. It reminds me on Tolkiens "Silmarillion" which made me very melancholic. If we follow that theory elven kind is on the end and their power in cerilia would maximal be that of a dying giant. I prefer to see all races of cerilia as equel but with different strategies.
5. The human gods- I thought about this too. Why not understand "divine magic", that helped the humans win as the (more or less) direct help of the humans gods who looked in panic back over their shoulder and searched cerilia for secure place weher their beloved followers could settle down? Maybe they were desperate enough to (secretly?)break fromer rules between the gods, the humanoid gods observed.
6. But the best fitting arguemt for myself is that the elves were in an endless fight against the Humanoids, on first front the most developed goblins, but both sides (paths,strategies) were of equal power. When the human tribes arrived, the elves wanted to ally with them, as mentioned in Rhoube Manslayers statement in "Abominations of cerilia". But after some generations the humans went against the elves too, to get more room to live maybe. The elven nations couldnt stand against BOTH enemies and fell one after another. Since the battle of Mount Deismaar tthere might be something like an unoffical pact between humans an elves not to fight against each other.

[morgramen]

You have some good points Angirest, and I would agree with several of them. In the matter of the goblins overrunning the elves before humanity eer arrive though, there might be a few additional explanations.

I guess the first one might be more of a personal setting point of view than actual fact and game mechanics, but I've always thought that the goblins (and other humanoids) were more shamanistic than clerical. As such, their divine magic would be less "grandiose" than the human version, and generally "less powerful" (if that makes sense.) Far less structured and organized at any rate.

There is also the goblins morale to consider, and I would think that their hosts would panic and break much easier than the human armies would. The goblins true strength is in their numbers alone, while the humans seem to have a better balance between sheer numbers (in relation to the elves anyway), morale, organized and efficient leadership, and generally greater technology.

Your mention that the elves were already beset by the goblins and were unable to defend against both the humanoids and man, certainly held true, and was another factor in their eventual fall. Once the Sidhelien Court was geographically divided, their fate was pretty much sealed I think, and you eventually end up with the various sidhelien kingdoms of Cerilia today.

[AngriestAngel]

I agree that religion seems not to be that important in goblin life- the only big-bos goblin priest i remember is that guy of Khurin-Azur, intriguing behind the Great Khanate. I would definitivley say that the one Gnoll Chieftain in vosgaard, which united several tribes, is a shaman. But I consider goblins to have priests- as you say, the goblinoids churches arent that strong as human ones- but priests.

[Raesene Andu]

Most of the pushing back of the elves took place before Deismaar (which is why Azrai was able to sign them up to his side so easily). In those times the humans gods were a LOT more active in the world, it was only after Deismaar that they pledged to leave the mortal realm alone. So It is not inconceivable that the gods were directly assisting their mortal followers with more than just mere spells.

If you read the last part of the novel Greatheart you'll see an example of what I mean. The elves come across an encampment of Azrai's beastmen in the forests and when they try to drive them out, the elves themselves are slaughtered by "lightning from the sky" which I imagine was the direct intervention of Azrai to prevent his followers being killed. It was only the arrival of Vorynn, one of Azrai's fiercest opponents that allowed the elven prince a chance of removing the beastmen.

Of course, following Deismaar, things have evened out a little more, which is probably why Rhuobhe, with only a few hundred followers is able to survive when surrounded by several hundred thousand humans who want him dead. In modern Cerilia arcane magic is a more powerful force when compared to divine magic. But divine magic with the ability to call in a god to carpet bomb the enemy with lightning bolts or whatever, suddenly becomes a lot more frightning.

[bulletmagnet]

I find it extremely funny how complicated people try make things.Two cultures/armies facing each other.One has healing magic and the other dosnt.One tends to use gurilla tactics and one uses massed army tactics.No matter how far advanced the elves are the fact that a defeated human army can heal up and return in a few days spells victory.

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Apr 4 2004, 02:55 AM
Most of the pushing back of the elves took place before Deismaar (which is why Azrai was able to sign them up to his side so easily). In those times the humans gods were a LOT more active in the world, it was only after Deismaar that they pledged to leave the mortal realm alone. So It is not inconceivable that the gods were directly assisting their mortal followers with more than just mere spells.
One of the things I wanted to mention... Thanks, Raesene!

In any case, allow me to tell you that the standard elven gestation (for the typical core rule elf which generally lived up to [a maximum of] 525 to 925 years) lasted 2 years! :o Hmm...

[Michael Romes]

Originally posted by AngriestAngel@Apr 3 2004, 09:53 PM
I agree that religion seems not to be that important in goblin life- the only big-bos goblin priest i remember is that guy of Khurin-Azur, intriguing behind the Great Khanate. I would definitivley say that the one Gnoll Chieftain in vosgaard, which united several tribes, is a shaman. But I consider goblins to have priests- as you say, the goblinoids churches arent that strong as human ones- but priests.
Khurin-Azur - a goblin Khanate? ;-)

It is actually the dwarven realm north of the Gorgon.
Perhaps Kal-Kalathor was what you meant?
bye
Michael

[AngriestAngel]

@Raesene: I have read "Greatheart" and ever thought it were just gnoll priests. But your interpretation of the lightnings would explain why the Elves didnt stand a chance- really devastating if a god throws lightnings- as much as he wants- from the sky! Like the god Zeus. I imagine the pre-Deismaar gods beeing like the old greek gods of mythology, who loved to play with human fates.
@Bulletmagnet: healing spells are a great thing after battle, but i value a fireball, thrown in lines of thight standing men more. because you cannot heal somebody who is burned to ashes. if we compare wizard and priest spells in general it is obvious to me that in matters of fight the wizard is the more cunning one. I think priest spells mainly enable another task, a social one- to protect people and take action in political things, anyway this is the way i played them (and i loved it:-)).

[AngriestAngel]

erh, yes Michael- i meant Kal-Kalathor. That "K" and that "-" between two words- its so similar :wacko:

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 3 2004, 02:50 AM
Other Cerilian races (goblins, dwarves, even gnolls and giants) had divine magics long before humans showed up. If divine magics were such an influence then it would have been an influence before.
Did they really? I haven't read any of the Br novels, so maybe there's info out there to the contrary, but I think it's conceivable that none of the Cerilian races had any gods before Deismaar. I've always thought of humans introducing deities to Cerilia. That also explains what all those other Cerilian deities were doing during Deismaar: they weren't there yet. In my campaign, the giants still don't have any deities, which makes sense to me, as they've existed for even longer than the elves (at least, according to "Bloodspawn"). I don't think it's that unlikely that Kartathok was just a major, but still mortal, goblin follower of Azrai at the Battle of Deismaar. Before Deismaar, the goblins were much like the elves. Remember, Azrai was so powerful, it took five other deities to destroy him. It is not that inconceivable that he could have spawned a few other, lesser deities that most are not that aware of. One the reasons why the elves didn't get any deities is that they never worshipped or followed Azrai that much in the first place, a symptom of which was the fact that most of them changed sides at Deismaar. In my view, even Rhuobhe never really liked Azrai that much, but he saw him as the lesser of two evils. The elves followed Azrai more out of hatred and fear of the humans, out of necessity, than anything else. That's the way I see it, anyway. The reason that most humans don't know about this is because they're so humanocentric. The reason that most elves don't know about it, is because they couldn't care less; they want nothing to do anymore with deities ever since Deismaar. :)
Perhaps the only Cerilian race that had a deity before Deismaar could be the dwarves. It would make more sense, because they've never really been involved with Deismaar, so their deity couldn't have come from there. Halflings also fit right in with my theory: they still don't have their own deity, they worship Avani. (If they had any, where did they go?) I think it all makes sense, doesn't it?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 3 2004, 08:15 PM

In any case, allow me to tell you that the standard elven gestation (for the typical core rule elf which generally lived up to [a maximum of] 525 to 925 years) lasted 2 years! :o Hmm...
Actually in 2nd ed, the Complete Book of Elves, made it a specific point to have all of the demi-human races have gestational periiods of roughly the same amount of time (somewhere around 9 months) in order to 'avoid' this issue.

For 3rd ed check Dragon #279 which had a write up on elves. Basically the reason that there are not more of them is that they only become fertile at set times - hence they can enjoy their typical sexual freedom and yet not have high birth rates.

[geeman]

At 03:18 PM 4/4/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



>
Originally posted by geeman@Apr 3 2004, 02:50 AM
[b]Other Cerilian races

> (goblins, dwarves, even gnolls and giants) had divine magics long before

> humans showed up. If divine magics were such an influence then it

> would have been an influence before.

> Did they really? I haven`t read any of the Br novels, so maybe there`s

> info out there to the contrary, but I think it`s conceivable that none of

> the Cerilian races had any gods before Deismaar. I`ve always thought of

> humans introducing deities to Cerilia.



Given that goblins, dwarves and orogs have their own gods and even

pantheons it seems likely to me that those races had divine magics before

Deismaar. Unless, that is, Deismaar brought gods to Cerilia, which seems a

bit odd to me.



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 5 2004, 07:30 AM
At 03:18 PM 4/4/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:
Given that goblins, dwarves and orogs have their own gods and even pantheons it seems likely to me that those races had divine magics before Deismaar. Unless, that is, Deismaar brought gods to Cerilia, which seems a bit odd to me.
I would agree, I think the goblin, orog, dwarven, etc, gods were already present and had worshippers in Cerilia before the humans arrived. However, there are good reason why all of those races never troubled the elves.

The dwarven were content to remain in their underground cities, and generally didn't bother the elves. The Orogs were in much the same situation, and it has only been in in the past few hundred years that they have emerged into the surface world and started forging new kingdoms.

The Goblins were the only race that might have troubled the elves, but for a long period of time the goblins were enslaved by the elves and didn't have the strength or organisation to challenge the elves, divine magic or not. I imagine that the elves may have also tried to stop the worship of the goblin gods, and only a few hidden shrines may have centres of goblin worship. And remember the goblin did gain their independance from elven rule before the humans arrived, perhaps through the efforts of their priests. The fact that several goblins realms occupy land that was once forest, or still is forest, is perhaps telling.

Humans on the other hand are much more organised and consequentially their religion is also more organised (look at Haelyn's faith for example with the order of knights, etc).

[blitzmacher]

I agree with Raesene's post, but would add the fact that goblins may have more numbers then other races, they also tend to fight each other almost as much as everyone else. Although arcane magic has more destructive power then divine, elves are more careful in their use of it. They won't use a fireball if it would destroy even a small part of their forest, no matter how many humans or goblins it would destroy along with it.

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Apr 4 2004, 04:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Apr 4 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RaspK_FOG@Apr 3 2004, 08:15 PM

In any case, allow me to tell you that the standard elven gestation (for the typical core rule elf which generally lived up to [a maximum of] 525 to 925 years) lasted 2 years&#33;* :o* Hmm...
Actually in 2nd ed, the Complete Book of Elves, made it a specific point to have all of the demi-human races have gestational periiods of roughly the same amount of time (somewhere around 9 months) in order to &#39;avoid&#39; this issue.

For 3rd ed check Dragon #279 which had a write up on elves. Basically the reason that there are not more of them is that they only become fertile at set times - hence they can enjoy their typical sexual freedom and yet not have high birth rates. [/b][/quote]
Allow me to say that I do not remember of such a part in the Complete Book of Elves, and that I have my own quotes from the book to answer to what you mentioned:


After the Godswar, Corellon Larethian walked the world of mortal Elves, hoping to gain knowledge and experience of our lives so that he could give us the aid that a true god should. During his journeys, he came across an Elf woman of such beauty and generosity of soul that he was stricken with love. Elana returned that love. Two years later, a child was born: Eliara Larethian. Corellon&#39;s daughter was the most perfect Elf ever born. Men and Elves alike hoped to win her favor.

and:


Celebration of Birth

Since elf children are few (or at least far fewer than human children), the birth of an elf is a cause of great celebration. Births are always times of great joy. The village turns out in profusion, setting aside the day&#39;s work to celebrate with the infant&#39;s parents.
* Following a two-year pregnancy, elf women are glad to celebrate the lightening of their burden. They happily join in the festivities honoring their newborn. Such celebrations typically last several days and conclude with the naming of the infant. Children are given a private name by their parents and then given a public name. The secret name is known only to the elf, his or her parents, and the priest presiding over the ceremony. While knowing the name gives no power over an elf, it is a sign of love and respect when an elf reveals his or her true name.

[graham anderson]

I agree with falcon the books hint that with the exception of the dwarves that the other humanoids had no gods before daesmar. They may not even have had any idea what a god is. The elves are athiests and the other races with the exception of the dwarves were thier slaves. This is a good expenation as for why they would have no gods before daesmar.

[geeman]

At 05:06 AM 4/6/2004 +0200, graham anderson wrote:



> I agree with falcon the books hint that with the exception of the

> dwarves that the other humanoids had no gods before daesmar. They may not

> even have had any idea what a god is. The elves are athiests and the

> other races with the exception of the dwarves were thier slaves. This is

> a good expenation as for why they would have no gods before daesmar.



I don`t know... it seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a

pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs, and

Torazan to the orogs who worship to them. Aside from any issues with the

history of the setting, I`m content with the argument that the divine

magics of humans isn`t really the cause of elven decline. I kind of like

the idea that the argument is a mistaken rationalization rather than a

statement of fact. Making the gods of other races (and the divine magics

gained by their followers) a post-Deismaar thing somewhat vitiates the

value of that rationalization for role-playing purposes.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 5 2004, 05:17 PM

Allow me to say that I do not remember of such a part in the Complete Book of Elves, and that I have my own quotes from the book to answer to what you mentioned:. . . .

I stand corrected. That&#39;s what I get for attempting to rely on my feeble memory instead of looking it up.

I do, however, like the Dragon article take better, it helps explain a lot of things in regards to elven way of life.

[graham anderson]

I don&#39;t see it as odd that daesmar would bring a pantheon of gods for the humanoids. The battle/war didn&#39;t happen over night azrai spent meny years building up his followers among the humanoids. These humanoids worshiped him as a god and there is no reason that gods did not arise after azrai&#39;s death like the human gods. Add to this the fact that gods can be born to other gods as per laerme and you have a pantheon quite easily. Also certain powerfull beings are worshiped as gods by the goblins and other humanoid groups like the spider, worlock etc.

There are lots of reasons that the elves were defeated but they still hold a lot of land. One was the back biting among the elves as when tuarviel didn&#39;t support the monolith builder elves and they were destroyed. Another the elven loses at daesmar were cripiling. Humans could recover in a couple of generations elves can&#39;t . The elves are only now thousands of years later just recovering from daesmar. Remember the humans just kept coming from abroad. Veterns of fighting azrai were constantly reinforcing the humans. As mentioned in the rjurik highlands divine magic was just the straw that broak the camals back.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman+Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (geeman &#064; Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don`t know... it seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a

pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs, and

Torazan to the orogs who worship to them.[/b]
Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or to the dwarves or orogs for that matter? No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks make mention of them anymore. Maybe that&#39;s for a good reason: there are none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity. (Some invidividual members of these races might worship other, more "human", gods, though, but that&#39;s beside the point.)

<!--QuoteBegin-geeman@Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM
Making the gods of other races (and the divine magics

gained by their followers) a post-Deismaar thing somewhat vitiates the

value of that rationalization for role-playing purposes.[/quote]
What I&#39;ve come up with stands alone from the whole elven survival debate, really. It doesn&#39;t have anything directly to do with it per se. It&#39;s an idea that I&#39;ve had for a while already.

[graham anderson]

Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or to the dwarves or orogs for that matter? No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks make mention of them anymore. Maybe that&#39;s for a good reason: there are none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity. (Some invidividual members of these races might worship other, more "human", gods, though, but that&#39;s beside the point.)

tribes of the heartless waste mentions three other goblin gods, it could be seen that the dwarven gods are the original 9 children created by moradin although it does not mention that they are worshiped exactly i think you can assume that they are. Other than that in worlock of the stone crows a number of other deities are worshiped in the temple of the goblins including the kraken.

[geeman]

At 10:27 PM 4/6/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



>
Originally posted by geeman@Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM
[b]I don`t know... it

> seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a<>

> pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs,

> and<>

> Torazan to the orogs who worship to them.

> Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or

> to the dwarves or orogs for that matter?



Well, "brought" in quotes there... as in, the battle of Deismaar somehow

introduced or otherwise initiated the worship of gods for other the other

Cerilian races. It doesn`t add up IMO that that event had something to do

with the religions of other races, or the participation of whole pantheons

of gods in the earthly plane of Aebrynis.



>No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides

>Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks

>make mention of them anymore. Maybe that`s for a good reason: there are

>none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity.



Just because WE don`t know anything of the gods of those races doesn`t mean

that no human does. It`s just one of the things left open ended in the

original materials. Cerilian humans probably know more about them than we

do. It`s probably not common knowledge, or things that most humans would

find a particular interested in for various reasons--the goblin religion is

rather noxious, for example--but it`s not forbidden or obscure.



Even with what little information we do have, however, the sourcebooks do

mention that both the goblins and the dwarves have a whole pantheons in

addition to their respective primary patrons, plus there is a slurry of

"gods" that were in 2e among the more powerful tanar`ri, which is a broad

group of creatures in an ever shifting, abyssal polity. That`s at least

three "pantheons" (and who knows what other gods might exist amongst for

those who live in the SW) so there are a lot of divine/infernal beings that

exist in the overall BR theology. On the whole, that seems like a lot of

material to backlog the idea of divine magics existing on Cerilia among

various races before humans arrived on the continent.



Gary

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 7 2004, 10:10 AM
On the whole, that seems like a lot of

material to backlog the idea of divine magics existing on Cerilia among

various races before humans arrived on the continent.
I just don&#39;t like the idea, though. Besides, it saves me the trouble of having to come up with a whole dwarven pantheon, let alone a whole goblin pantheon. I&#39;m just not interested in that. Besides, I think it&#39;s so typical (might I say "FR"ish?) for each race to have their own complete pantheon. I liked the way they handled it in the 3e PH, which is, each race only has one race specific deity, basically, with them worshipping other deities that are not race specific as needed. I like to keep my pantheons small and manageable, that&#39;s all. It&#39;s one of the things that appealed to me about Br. I&#39;m not about to change it.

[Celahir]

Greetings. I&#39;m a long time lurker and finally decided to post.

I&#39;ve given this topic some thought and came up with a theory as to why the elves lost to the humans. In the Book of Magecraft it states: "The elves learned early how to harness mebhaighl and use it as one of the land&#39;s energy souces." Perhaps the reason why the elves lost was because the source levels were lowered due to human expansion, thus decreasing the level of magical power available to the elves. They found themselves at a disadvantage against priestly magic, which doesn&#39;t rely on mebhaighl. As everyone here knows, the higher the level of civilization in a province, the lower the source level.

For instance, the source level in elven lands is generally very high, so elves could cast higher level spells. However, in provinces such as Anuire where the source level is 0, an elven mage would be virtually powerless.

This theory breaks down a bit with the events at Mt. Diesmaar. After the gods perished, humans could now cast true magic if they were blooded. Obviously, human wizards can cast fairly powerful spells even when the source level is low. It&#39;s possible that the divine essences in blooded humans are the true source of their magical power and don&#39;t have to draw upon mebhaighl as greatly as an elf.

Of course, this is all just wild theory of mine.

[geeman]

At 09:56 PM 4/7/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



>Besides, I think it`s so typical (might I say "FR"ish?) for each

>race to have their own complete pantheon. I liked the way they handled it

>in the 3e PH, which is, each race only has one race specific deity,

>basically, with them worshipping other deities that are not race specific

>as needed. I like to keep my pantheons small and manageable, that`s all.

>It`s one of the things that appealed to me about Br. I`m not about to

>change it.



Personally, I`ve always preferred the interpretation that the gods of

various pantheons are simply different aspects of the same

individuals. Thor = Lei Kung = Cuirecaen. Omikami = Avani. Anu = Haelyn

= Zeus = Indra = Ra. There are lots of commonalities to the pantheons in

various real life and fantasy materials. Enough to equate certain

individual deities, and in those cases where the god in question is not the

leader of a particular pantheon BR gives us an excellent example of how

different cultures find primacy in different gods.



However, when it comes to the demi-human races its a little more difficult

to equate the human gods. Moradin does seem pretty definitively dwarven,

as do some of the other deities. That`s not to say that such a thing is

beyond the concept of godhood, of course, but it just gets a little

nonsensical to try to equate Haelyn with Moradin when their portfolios have

a few fundamental differences--air vs. earth being probably the most obvious.



It`s also a bit of a problem in BR in that several of the gods died and

were replaces, so equating them with deities from other pantheons means

those gods have been supplanted. Very few characters in the BR universe

are going to be very concerned by the fact that the original Zeus is now

Haelyn, but it does make for a rather extensive effect that some folks

might balk at.



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:40 PM





> There are lots of commonalities to the pantheons in

> various real life and fantasy materials. Enough to

> equate certain individual deities ...

> Very few characters in the BR universe are going to

> be very concerned by the fact that the original Zeus

> is now Haelyn, but it does make for a rather extensive

> effect that some folks might balk at.



Even this replacement is mirrored is Saturn`s replacement

of Uranus, and Saturn`s replacement by Jupiter.

(or Uranos, Kronos, and Zeus)



In the new years celebration of Cerilia, the baby new year

is Haelyn and the old father time is Andurias.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Celahir" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 5:09 PM





> Perhaps the reason why the elves lost was because

> the source levels were lowered due to human expansion



Certainly this is a key factor in the ultimate defeat, what

remains up in the air is how soon the elves took to sense

the disturbance in the force and go after the source. Its

very possible that the elves took a while to notice the

decline, and that when they did, they didn`t attribute it to

human settlement, since this relationship was unknown.

Of course we can reject this theory by supposing that the

elves knew it instinctivly or intuitively. But if we do accept

the theory, we can further speculate, ironically, that the

elves held off against the humans until they could reverse

the decline of the mebhaighl, and only realized that it was

the humans all along.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Celahir"
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 5:09 PM


> Perhaps the reason why the elves lost was because
> the source levels were lowered due to human expansion

Certainly this is a key factor in the ultimate defeat, what
remains up in the air is how soon the elves took to sense
the disturbance in the force and go after the source. Its
very possible that the elves took a while to notice the
decline, and that when they did, they didn`t attribute it to
human settlement, since this relationship was unknown.
Of course we can reject this theory by supposing that the
elves knew it instinctivly or intuitively. But if we do accept
the theory, we can further speculate, ironically, that the
elves held off against the humans until they could reverse
the decline of the mebhaighl, and only realized that it was
the humans all along.

Kenneth Gauck


All of which brings up an interesting question: Could elves cast realm spells before they had divine bloodlines? Or did Desimaar open up this possibility for them, and perhaps stabilize the balance of power between races at that point? The Andu had probably stopped their aggression against the eleves for some time once the threat of Azrai became apparent...and given the implied scale of the battle of Deismaar, it seems they would have built up their forces for some time to be able to muster so many...plus Azrai was probably keeping them off-balance by throwing humanoid attackers against their settlements to hamper their war effort and hone the humanoid forces in preparation for the Big One.

One theory I have going is that after Deismaar, the elves made peace with most of the human tribes. A period of cooperation may even have ensued. It seems a necessity that either the elves or the dragons taught the blooded humans true magic...I have a hard time believing the full array of wizard and sorcerer powers is purely the result of independent experimentation and research by generations of ambitious scions.

The point made earlier that the elven population would have taken a serious blow from Deismaar is a good one...whether they ever really recovered, or will recover, certainly remains up for debate (and will forever, as the setting material will never definitively tell us, and each DM will have their own take on it). But it&#39;s a good debate...interesting to consider the possibilities.

Personally, on the general issue of humans vs. elves, I&#39;m solidly in the camp of human population and aggression being the single greatest factor in humans winning a multi-generational war. Immigrating veteran reinforcements don&#39;t hurt, either, and having clerics and gods on your side is also a big supporting factor.

One of the things about human clerics vs. elven mages is that human clerics probably require a lot less training and devoted pursuit to gain their powers than true mages would. Combine with human reproduction rates, and you have the elves killing off enemy spellcasters only to see them "rapidly" replaced (in elven time), while every elven mage dead is one less to worry about for a few centuries.

So long as the humans had the drive and tenacity to keep fighting, despite likely early losses and setbacks (the elves would have kicked the humans&#39; butts in most of the early battles), they would have inevitably won the long war...given enough time. It&#39;s unclear, though, just how much time passed between the first settlers arriving in Cerilia and Deismaar, but it must have been a few centuries at least.

As for the gods appearing in person...I&#39;m gonna have to chalk that one up to romantic notions. The reason is that the one solid piece of evidence we have about their behavior is Deismaar. And at Deismaar, the tribal gods didn&#39;t manifest over the field until they realized that Azrai was already there...

Now, if it was &#39;normal&#39; for the gods to manifest when their followers had great need, why wouldn&#39;t they have been down there fighting at Deismaar right from the beginning? Why have champions at all, when you could just represent yourself (and given the actual death of the gods, it seems the Cerilian ones didn&#39;t use avatars)?

I think the gods may have more directly aided their patron people against the elves, but I doubt they ever manifested personally and threw in with the humans...what I could imagine is them intervening to save beloved heroes/champions, changing the weather to hide their followers from an elven ambush, granting foreknowledge through dreams of the consequences of certain choices, etc. The kinds of things gods do for their heroes in most mythologies. At best, I could imagine the gods "manifesting" in the sense of possessing or empowering their tribal champions, imbuing them with superhuman qualities for the duration of a battle (Anduiras would be a great candidate for this tactic) - imagine your best fighter suddenly empowered with (in D&D terms) Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might? He grows huge, powerfully strong, and is a terror on the battlefield...AND resistant to most of the elven magic&#33; Now THAT might be enough to empower a human victory all by itself&#33; If the human tribes were anything like most human tribes of Iron Age Earth, their heroes and champions were the heart and soul of any fighting force...a strong champion meant a strong army, and vice versa. If the champion proved indomitable, his troops would feel that they were invincible too...and fight hard, harder and better than the elves would give them credit for, in all likelihood.

[geeman]

At 02:12 PM 4/8/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Could elves cast realm spells before they had divine bloodlines? Or did

>Desimaar open up this possibility for them, and perhaps stabilize the

>balance of power between races at that point?



I`d say that they could not cast realm spells, at least not standard, BR

realm spells. RP are required to cast realm spells and the need for a

bloodline to collect RP, the Sidhe (or anyone) did not have had access to

either of those things before Deismaar, so they couldn`t have cast those

spells.



However, I think they probably did have some sort of comparable scale of

magic. "Realm spells" without RP might take a domain turn rather than a

month, and may require the participation of more than a single character

(regent) who channels the regency that powers the spell, but there could be

some sort of domain level equivalent that lacks the speed and effect of the

standard realm spell. At the very least, there`s the effect of casting

certain spells repetitively over a period of time which would have some

sort of domain level effect in certain cases.



Gary

[geeman]

At 07:18 PM 4/7/2004 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



> > Very few characters in the BR universe are going to

> > be very concerned by the fact that the original Zeus

> > is now Haelyn, but it does make for a rather extensive

> > effect that some folks might balk at.

>

>Even this replacement is mirrored is Saturn`s replacement

>of Uranus, and Saturn`s replacement by Jupiter.

>(or Uranos, Kronos, and Zeus)



That`s true, though it seems to me those examples (and most of the rest of

them that I can come up with off the top of my head) are things that take

place in the "background" of the respective pantheons/religions rather than

being things that occur in their living history. If one wanted to stretch

the analogy one could find a few parallels in some modern religions that

feature some living embodiment of a god/enlightenment or otherwise elevated

human being, but in those cases the human who manifests the divine doesn`t

actually supplant that divinity.



I suppose one could use the transition from one to the other to illustrate

the significance of the change, however. I mean, only Cerilians and likely

some Adurians know about the transition. Imagine telling a Greek that Zeus

was dead but had been replaced by one of his mortal followers who now

embodies most of that god`s aspect and role in the pantheon. That`s pretty

heretical by any standard.



Gary

[kgauck]

Depends on one`s notions of divinity. That`s part of DM cosmology. It also

depends on one`s notions of who is human. Semantic questions don`t

illuminate unless the catagories are significant to some argument or

another. Since we are talking about a succession of dieties, who qualifies

and who doesn`t isn`t really the point. I think you should return to your

earlier formulation that where there are a lot of commonalities, some

analogy can be drawn. That fact that no analogy is perfect is obvious.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 04:30 PM 4/8/2004 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



>Depends on one`s notions of divinity. That`s part of DM cosmology. It also

>depends on one`s notions of who is human. Semantic questions don`t

>illuminate unless the catagories are significant to some argument or

>another.



I`m sure some folks would have ideas about divinity that would accommodate

their gods dying and being replaced by their most faithful followers, but

in general that`s not the kind of thing most people would embrace as part

of their cosmology. Sure, a DM might decide that for the purpose of a

campaign world, but to maintain some semblance of realism he`d likely want

to recognize the idea as being controversial at best.



>Since we are talking about a succession of dieties, who qualifies

>and who doesn`t isn`t really the point.



It wasn`t really my point.



>I think you should return to your earlier formulation that where there are

>a lot of commonalities, some

>analogy can be drawn. That fact that no analogy is perfect is obvious.



I`m still using that concept. All I was pointing out was that the

commonalities between the deities of different pantheons is why some folks

might have a problem with the suggestion that the BR gods parallel those of

other pantheons. That is, the BR gods have died and been replaced, which

means their equivalents in other pantheons did as well. If Anduiras = Zeus

then when Anduiras was replaced by Haelyn then Zeus was too. That is a

pretty broad ramification for the BR background, and some folks might balk

at it. That`s not to say it couldn`t be done, I`m just suggesting that the

reaction itself would probably be the same as the reaction of people on

Aebrynis (or those Cerilians who weren`t at Deismaar) when they were told

the gods were dead and mortals had replaced them.



Gary

[kgauck]

Attempting to guess at the psychology, cultural assumptions, and cosmologies

of people in game worlds not my own sounds like a dubious endeavor at best.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 06:28 PM 4/8/2004 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



>Attempting to guess at the psychology, cultural assumptions, and cosmologies

>of people in game worlds not my own sounds like a dubious endeavor at best.



Well, that`s what we do here. Besides, in this case it`s not a

particularly dramatic leap.



Gary

[kgauck]

My mistake, I though we discussing something else.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 8 2004, 06:20 PM
I`m sure some folks would have ideas about divinity that would accommodate

their gods dying and being replaced by their most faithful followers, but

in general that`s not the kind of thing most people would embrace as part

of their cosmology. Sure, a DM might decide that for the purpose of a

campaign world, but to maintain some semblance of realism he`d likely want

to recognize the idea as being controversial at best.
Gary


I think this is too broad of an assumption in determining other people&#39;s opinion of a comology.

IMO more people (who play Birthright, since that is the setting we are talking about and not real world {fantasy versus real world, sometimes its hard to tell where the lines are drawn ;) }) can accept and embrace the concept of the old human gods dying and passing on their charges to their most dedicated followers than any other concept presented.

The other takes on this serve as a good point of discussion, but one shouldn&#39;t make the assumption that most people (even my opinion is subject to this wide application, but is based on 2nd ed BR material instead of something else) would agree with a concept that is contrary to the cosmology presented in the 2nd ed BR setting material.

Deities and Demigods (3.0 version) has a small (far too small for my take) section mentioning gods dying - so WotC had obviously thought that the concept could fit into enough people&#39;s cosmology to mention.

[geeman]

At 11:50 AM 4/9/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>IMO more people (who play Birthright, since that is the setting we are

>talking about and not real world {fantasy versus real world, sometimes its

>hard to tell where the lines are drawn ;) }) can accept and embrace the

>concept of the old human gods dying and passing on their charges to their

>most dedicated followers than any other concept presented.

>

>The other takes on this serve as a good point of discussion, but one

>shouldn`t make the assumption that most people (even my opinion is subject

>to this wide application, but is based on 2nd ed BR material instead of

>something else) would agree with a concept that is contrary to the

>cosmology presented in the 2nd ed BR setting material.

>

> Deities and Demigods (3.0 version) has a small (far too small for my

> take) section mentioning gods dying - so WotC had obviously thought that

> the concept could fit into enough people`s cosmology to mention.



I think it`s a pretty fair assumption that if one were to walk up to people

who were not present at the Battle of Deismaar and tell them that the

god(s) they had been worshipping their whole lives had died, but had been

replaced by their nearest mortal follower, most people would initially

disbelieve that statement and many would find it objectionable. It`s a

pretty dramatic event in a theology, and the kind of thing people take

pretty seriously. The differences between the temple structures in the BR

materials are almost always much less significant than that, and those

temples are often in conflict with one another over far more minor

interpretation of their god`s aspect, purpose, goals, etc.



That`s not to say, however, that EVERYONE would object the story, nor that

the whole thing would be disbelieved forever. The fact that thousands of

people attended the battle and that many of them can manifest powers

derived from that event would be good evidence to back up the

situation. Plus, there could be a whole bunch of other affects when the

godsdeath occurred that we don`t know about. The priests of those original

gods who remained at home, being in tune with their deity in some

inexplicable way, might have known that something was up. There is some

text in the BR materials that indicates that people from other continents

are unaware of the death of the gods and their replacement, however, so in

general I think the transition is something that was relatively "smooth"

from the POV of the average worshipper and even the priesthood.



Players and DMs, of course, are much more flexible than the average PC or

NPC. It is for us, after all, a fiction rather than our reality, so it`s

easier for us to absorb. From that POV, I`m not saying this should mandate

anyone`s role-playing. I`m just saying from a role-playing perspective it

might be a useful subplot or perspective.



As a speculative issue, it might be useful to explain an aspect of the

original violence that the first scions were subjected to. Generally, it`s

assumed that many were killed because the ability to commit blood theft was

discovered, and scions started killing off each other. However, a certain

percentage of that violence might have been persecution from religiously

orthodox people who disbelieved the accounts of the Battle of Deismaar and

saw the story as heretical. How about an isolated Rjurik or Vos tribe that

still believed the original gods were in place, and reacted violently to

the suggestion that things had changed? That could be an interesting

adventure hook.



IIRC, there is at least one temple in the BR materials that uses this kind

of interpretation to justify their existence. (Nesirie?) The new god is a

sort of "remanifestation" of the old god rather than a transition from one

to the next. I don`t recall which temple that is off the top of my head,

however.



Gary

[Osprey]

Old gods dying and being replaced isn&#39;t at all alien to human (real-world) cosmology. In most mythologies, the old order is killed off or banished by the new generation of "young gods," and the cycle of life and death, the old and weak being supplanted by the young and strong...these are part and parcel, I&#39;d argue, of most RW mythologies...the Norse (Ymir being killed to make the world; later, Ragnorak kills off most of the old gods and leaves their children to remake the broken world), Greeks (Titans/Olympians), Babylonians, Egyptians (there&#39;s a whole confusing series of deific successions depending on who was Pharoah at the time, and what temple sect he favored), there&#39;s even evidence of it in some of the older Hebrew texts that suggests Yawe (sp?) was once one of the "Assembly of El", and perhaps just a tribal patron god of the Hebrews. And I bet there&#39;s even more examples that I just don&#39;t know off the top of my head.

So succession of godly power through generations is quite the mythological norm...to have humans elevated to become that next generation, well...that&#39;s the part that is more uniquely Birthright. But blasphemous? Hercules, though admittedly half-immortal already, was granted god status and ascended on his deathbed...not blasphemy, rather the most (arguably) celebrated hero of Greek mythology.

So....all I&#39;m saying is that it isn&#39;t such a large stretch after all, to accept mortals ascending...the en masse ascension at Deismaar, though, is a beautiful gem of the Birthright cosmology, something which does hold Aebrynis apart from most other worlds of the D&D multiverse. And I like it&#33; :D

[irdeggman]

I think it`s a pretty fair assumption that if one were to walk up to people

who were not present at the Battle of Deismaar and tell them that the

god(s) they had been worshipping their whole lives had died, but had been

replaced by their nearest mortal follower, most people would initially

disbelieve that statement and many would find it objectionable. It`s a

pretty dramatic event in a theology, and the kind of thing people take

pretty seriously. The differences between the temple structures in the BR

materials are almost always much less significant than that, and those

temples are often in conflict with one another over far more minor

interpretation of their god`s aspect, purpose, goals, etc.


But that is the whole point there was a catacysmic event the revolved around this. Mt Deismaar expoded and the contents were separated.

If only to rationize that event people would likely buy into the death and rebirth of the gods.




That`s not to say, however, that EVERYONE would object the story, nor that

the whole thing would be disbelieved forever. The fact that thousands of

people attended the battle and that many of them can manifest powers

derived from that event would be good evidence to back up the

situation. Plus, there could be a whole bunch of other affects when the

godsdeath occurred that we don`t know about. The priests of those original

gods who remained at home, being in tune with their deity in some

inexplicable way, might have known that something was up. There is some

text in the BR materials that indicates that people from other continents

are unaware of the death of the gods and their replacement, however, so in

general I think the transition is something that was relatively "smooth"

from the POV of the average worshipper and even the priesthood.

But this was revolving around Cerilia and not other contents. The original topic was how could the elves have lost - there is no indication of elves being on any of the other continents, since humans left them and then met the elves in Cerilia.





Players and DMs, of course, are much more flexible than the average PC or

NPC. It is for us, after all, a fiction rather than our reality, so it`s

easier for us to absorb. From that POV, I`m not saying this should mandate

anyone`s role-playing. I`m just saying from a role-playing perspective it

might be a useful subplot or perspective.

I thought you were refering to players and not characters in your earlier comments.





As a speculative issue, it might be useful to explain an aspect of the

original violence that the first scions were subjected to. Generally, it`s

assumed that many were killed because the ability to commit blood theft was

discovered, and scions started killing off each other. However, a certain

percentage of that violence might have been persecution from religiously

orthodox people who disbelieved the accounts of the Battle of Deismaar and

saw the story as heretical. How about an isolated Rjurik or Vos tribe that

still believed the original gods were in place, and reacted violently to

the suggestion that things had changed? That could be an interesting

adventure hook.

I find the persecution in the early days following Deismaar to be a real stretch. Since this was a disaster, an event that rocked the world. Characters would &#39;know&#39; that the mountain no longer existed and that access to Aduria via land was no longer possible. In remote lands, you might have a point - but that can&#39;t possibly explain the early deaths of som many scins since they were by necessity created near the formaer location of Deismaar and those in the area new without a doubt that the Mt exploded./>

[geeman]

At 06:03 PM 4/9/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> But that is the whole point there was a catacysmic event the revolved

> around this. Mt Deismaar expoded and the contents were separated.

>

> If only to rationize that event people would likely buy into the death

> and rebirth of the gods.



Outside of the people present at the battle, and probably a certain radius

(not more than a few provinces) I don`t think most people would have been

aware of Deismaar. Unless, that is, it had some sort of much broader,

global impact than I have previously assumed.... Did a pall of dust cover

the planet changing the climate for a few centuries? Did the seas lower

notably as the waters rushed in to fill up the Strait? Did the earth

itself palpably change for the average person somehow?



Could someone several hundred miles away have heard or seen the

explosion? Even if they did how many would extrapolate from what they were

able to see (lights on the horizon, the sound of distant thunder) that the

gods had sacrificed themselves in a battle with Azrai? In a world with

very large, powerful dragons would the explosion have been seen as

something divine or would they have assumed it was caused by one of those

dragons or some other fantastic creature?



> <>

>
That`s not to say, however, that EVERYONE would object the story,

> nor that<>

> the whole thing would be disbelieved forever. The fact that

> thousands of<>

> people attended the battle and that many of them can manifest powers<>

> derived from that event would be good evidence to back up the<>

> situation. Plus, there could be a whole bunch of other affects

> when the<>

> godsdeath occurred that we don`t know about. The priests of those

> original<>

> gods who remained at home, being in tune with their deity in some<>

> inexplicable way, might have known that something was up. There is

> some<>

> text in the BR materials that indicates that people from other

> continents<>

> are unaware of the death of the gods and their replacement, however, so

> in<>

> general I think the transition is something that was relatively

> "smooth"<>

> from the POV of the average worshipper and even the priesthood.

>

> But this was revolving around Cerilia and not other contents. The

> original topic was how could the elves have lost - there is no indication

> of elves being on any of the other continents, since humans left them and

> then met the elves in Cerilia.<>

>

>
Players and DMs, of course, are much more flexible than the

> average PC or<>

> NPC. It is for us, after all, a fiction rather than our reality,

> so it`s<>

> easier for us to absorb. From that POV, I`m not saying this should

> mandate<>

> anyone`s role-playing. I`m just saying from a role-playing

> perspective it<>

> might be a useful subplot or perspective.

>

> I thought you were refering to players and not characters in your

> earlier comments.



I guess I wasn`t that clear then. I`m talking about NPCs for the most

part, and historical ones at that. Modern Cerilian characters who deny

Deismaar (or the godsdeath, at least) would be few and far between, though

there would likely be many on continents that are across the sea. Adurians

would be more likely to know what had happened and to have evidence of it.



Gary

[geeman]

At 04:54 PM 4/9/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Old gods dying and being replaced isn`t at all alien to human (real-world)

>cosmology. In most mythologies, the old order is killed off or banished

>by the new generation of "young gods," and the cycle of life and

>death, the old and weak being supplanted by the young and strong...these

>are part and parcel, I`d argue, of most RW mythologies...the Norse

>(Ymir being killed to make the world; later, Ragnorak kills off most of

>the old gods and leaves their children to remake the broken world), Greeks

>(Titans/Olympians), Babylonians, Egyptians (there`s a whole confusing

>series of deific successions depending on who was Pharoah at the time, and

>what temple sect he favored), there`s even evidence of it in some of the

>older Hebrew texts that suggests Yawe (sp?) was once one of the

>"Assembly of El", and perhaps just a tribal patron god of the

>Hebrews. And I bet there`s even more examples that I just don`t know off

>the top of my head.

>

>So succession of godly power through generations is quite the mythological

>norm...to have humans elevated to become that next generation,

>well...that`s the part that is more uniquely Birthright. But

>blasphemous? Hercules, though admittedly half-immortal already, was

>granted god status and ascended on his deathbed...not blasphemy, rather

>the most (arguably) celebrated hero of Greek mythology.

>

>So....all I`m saying is that it isn`t such a large stretch after all, to

>accept mortals ascending...the en masse ascension at Deismaar,

>though, is a beautiful gem of the Birthright cosmology, something which

>does hold Aebrynis apart from most other worlds of the D&D

>multiverse. And I like it&#33; :D



When viewed from the POV of someone who is exposed to several dozen world

myths it doesn`t seem like much of a stretch. From the POV of someone

without access to a text on world mythology, and who actually lives during

those events, but who does not necessarily witness them, it`s going to be

much more difficult to accept. When it comes to the real world examples,

I`d suggest that all of them (or, at least, all that I can think) happen in

what would be the "pre-history" of the mythology rather than its "living

history." They are part of the creation story for each of those religions,

so the idea that the gods go through a sort of generational transition

exists, but its not something that anyone is ever going to actually have to

deal with. As such, it`s easier to accept the transition of the old

(pre-historical) gods than it would be if one were to say the god you have

been actively worshipping all your life is now gone.



If I can be forgiven the real world historical religious analogy (and it`s

Easter, so what the heck?) I`d suggest that the situation might be similar

to the process of Christianization. Sure, many people did accept the whole

"god is dead, god is risen" thing, but many others did not and lots of

early Christians got killed spreading that message because people reacted

negatively to it. Any new doctrine is going to face some opposition.



Please note, however, that I`m not saying that the vast majority of modern

Cerilians don`t believe in Deismaar like medieval versions of historical

revisionists. I was just pointing out that just as a person who worshipped

one of those gods from a real world mythology might have trouble with the

idea that that god had died and was replaced, the people who were not

present at Deismaar would have a similar reaction.



Gary

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Gary wrote:



> At 09:56 PM 4/7/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:

>

> >Besides, I think it`s so typical (might I say "FR"ish?) for each

> >race to have their own complete pantheon. I liked the way they handled it

> >in the 3e PH, which is, each race only has one race specific deity,



I actually find "one god per species, for all species except humans" to be

one of the more irritating examples of the ubiquitous, lazy humanocentrism

of the rules. My favorite part of the original Unearthed Arcana was its

descriptions of the pantheons of the other races (the Orcish was my

favorite, in the beautful way it captured the whole flavor of the

culture). I find it nothing more than a sign of WOTC not bothering to

work things out in more detail, due to space constraints.



> >basically, with them worshipping other deities that are not race specific

> >as needed. I like to keep my pantheons small and manageable, that`s all.



I like to keep my Cerilia as species-segregated as possible. I think, for

example, that humans worshiping dwarven gods or vice versa should be

extremely rare and considered at least socially outcast, if not outright

deranged. That said, I have little objection to the idea that "all

pantheons are one pantheon" *metaphysically* -- I just want worshippers of

the same god under different names to kill each other just as

enthusiastically as before. Indeed, the thing I like best about Cerilia`s

religions is that they are not monolithic, and LG Haelynites can

righteously slaughter each other in just wars against other LG Haelynites.



> However, when it comes to the demi-human races its a little more

> difficult to equate the human gods. Moradin does seem pretty

> definitively dwarven, as do some of the other deities. That`s not to

> say that such a thing is beyond the concept of godhood, of course, but

> it just gets a little nonsensical to try to equate Haelyn with Moradin

> when their portfolios have a few fundamental differences--air vs.

> earth being probably the most obvious.



Air vs. Fire is an equally serious problem in trying to equate Haelyn with

Ra. I am tempted to say that it`s not really so much about equating as it

is trying to combine various portfolios into groups and assign names to

them. Each pantheon contains about the same number of gods, and all the

basic portfolio elements get handled by someone, but who does what and who

is more important varies. In the dwarven pantheon, leadership, justice

and earth get put in the same box, which is labeled "Moradin", but in the

human pantheon leadership, justice and air get put in a different (but as

you note, clearly partially overlapping) box, which is labeled "Haelyn".

The mathematical analogy which immediately occurs to me is that the amount

of divinity in the Cerilian universe is describable in a variety of

different coordinate systems, which are really just different ways of

expressing the same thing. I`m not sure I believe this, but it is what

your argument suggests to me.





Ryan Caveney

[RaspK_FOG]

Regarding the acceptance of the events that took place at Deismaar for a while after, I would like to say I am in par with Gary; it is a realistic and very well put argument...

As for pantheons, the most logical way of thinking of these things was what can be described as a raciosocial amalgam. For example, it is logical - and historically backed up - that cultures with similar aspects will accept deific figures of similar aspects as equals or of equal stature. Furthermore, said cultures will accept, or even borrow, features of one or more of their deific figures and adapt them to their own values and idiosyncracies. Bacchus, for example, was introduced to greeks from the East and accepted; he also had his name localised to Dionysos. And there also is the adaptation of the greek olympian pantheon to the roman pantheon (Zeus --&#62; Jupiter, Kronos --&#62; Saturn, Uranos --&#62; Uranus, Poseidon --&#62; Neptune, Demetra --&#62; Ceres, Hermes --&#62; Mercury, Aphrodite --&#62; Venus, Athena --&#62; Minerva, Plutonas --&#62; Pluto, Ares --&#62; Mars, Apollonas --&#62; Apollo, Ephaistos [EE-feh-stos] --&#62; Vulcan, etc.)...

[The Jew]

Their is a critical difference between the spread of christianity and the spread of the new gods after diesmar. Christianity started among the outcasts. post-Diesmar gods would have been spread by the surviving soldiers and the leaders. All the survivors of Diesmar, from all the different racial and cultural groups would have returned home to their families and communities. Some of them would have had proof. Many of the strongest ones, and therefore most respected, gained incredible new powers which would have bolstered their stories. The ones who were raised to godhood were literally the greatest leaders of their people, and most devout followers of their former gods and so would have been more easily accepted as gods then a poor carpenter.

[kgauck]

The Greek gods were not adapted to the Romans, both have a common origin.

Actual examples of syncreticism are the Greek association of Thoth with

Hermes. The Greeks no more brought the idea of Zeus to Italy than they

brought cattle or trees there.



Dionysus was not of eastern origin, he`s almost certainly Thracian. The

other substantial theory is that he is of Pelagian origin (the people in

Greece before the Greeks). Refering to him as Baccus in this context is

especially confusing since that is his Roman name (taken from the Bacchae,

devout female worshippers). The notion that he came from Asia comes from

Euripides play, the Bacchae, who is really just locating his personal

origin, the way one might say that Zeus comes from Crete or Aphrodite comes

from Zephyrus, the source of the west wind and settles at Kytheria, an

island to the west of Greece. (Aphrodite might well be an Asian figure,

BTW, possibly originating in Ishtar and like figures.)



Are there any sources that desribe syncreticism as "raciosocial amalgam"? I

am unfamiliar with the term and Google and Vivisimo have nothing on it.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

Allow me to point out some things: The name Bacchus was used for Dionysos before the Roman ivasion (Bacchos). The former is just a simple conversion of his name to Roman (just like magos (greek) --&#62; magus (latin) --&#62; mage (english); further proof is that the plural both for magos and for magus is magi).
Aphrodite is a greek goddess and has nothing to do with the rest of the worlds pantheons as far as I know... Unlike what most people are taught, Saturn (Kronos) didn&#39;t "cleave Uranus (Uranos)"; what he actually had cloven was his genitals (&#33;), and what myth says is that his blood fell to the sea and Mount Athos was created, and from his cloven genitals, who also fell to the sea, Aphrodite was born, emerging through the sea-foams somewhere a little off Rhodes (Aphrodite means "she who emerges out of the foams"). The whole "forefather god&#39;s genital gave birth to me" concept is certainly ancient, but the rest...
The Romans originally had similar deities to the Greek ones but, after they invated Greece, they adopted many things from the greek culture: architecture, artistic designs, sculpture, clothing styles, linguistic idiosyncracies, even religious forms; these were not entirely greek, that&#39;s why I used the phrase "adopted".
Being Greek, I was taught that the synthesis of words and phrases is a part of the linguistic wealth; a "raciosocial amalgam" is what this phrase can be translated to exactly: an amalgam of racial and social material. An amalgam, in case you are not familiar with the term, is a mixture of quicksilver (mercury, hydrargyros) and any other substance, much like a carbide is a mixture of carbon and any other substance; however, the word amalgam is used to describe any mixture, possibly an exotic one, that cannot easilly or any longer be split unto its components.

[A_dark]

I agree with raspkfog as far as the whole greek-roman stuff goes...

As for the christianisation of the old gods&#39; believers, I agree with Gary and would like to point out that Djapar&#39;s Basarji still worship Basaia because they do not believe Deismaar ever occurred. Avani gives them spells I suppose, so all is well. (from the Cities of the Sun)

[geeman]

At 10:48 AM 4/11/2004 +0200, A_dark wrote:



>I agree with Gary and would like to point out that Djapar`s Basarji still

>worship Basaia because they do not believe Deismaar ever occurred. Avani

>gives them spells I suppose, so all is well. (from the Cities of the Sun)



Yeah, the new gods are described as taking on the roles of their

predecessors in the rest of Aebrynis, granting spells, etc. so that the

transition is pretty much unknown to the rest of the world. When I played

an Oriental Adventures version of BR, however, I made for parallel battles

to account for the existence of bloodlines on the continent on the other

side of the world rather than try to explain the diffusion of the system

halfway across the globe. Such a thing is highly speculative, of course,

but does illustrate some of the weirdness with the background of the setting.



Gary

[kgauck]

The stories about the origins and activities of the Greek gods are many and

varied. There is no right, one way to describe these things. Depending on

whether refers to Hesiod, Sophocles, Pindar, or any of the other poets one

will find the same stories told different ways. For example, Hesiod tells

the story RaspK_FOG has described, but Homer tells us she is the daughter of

Zeus and Dione (a feminine name for Zeus, BTW). See the Illiad Book V, line

370. Arguing over which version is right is kind of like arguing over which

province Prince Avan was born in. Its also worth noting that Cerilia`s gods

have the same kinds of disagreements over their origin. You may note that

the BoP tells us that some of Avani`s worshipers regard her as an amalgam of

all the former gods and not the successor to any one of them.



Much of the Greek influence on the Romans pre-dates the Roman invasion of

Greece. The Greeks has been the dominant maritime power of the formative

years of Rome, colonizing southern France, eastern Spain, and most

importantly, southern Italy. This is the source of much of the Greek

influence.



My question about the phrase "raciosocial amalgam" was not an etymological

one, I know what the words mean, my question asks did you make this term up,

or is this term uses by authors on the subject. In two decades of study of

the ancient Hellenes, I had not seen this term ever, and it didn`t turn up

in Google or Vivisimo. So, where does it come from?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

As far as the world felt effects of the explosion of Deismaar - it would have had to have been grander than Versuvius and Mt St Helens bothof which were felt across the world. Unlike the 2 real world analogies Deismaar actually exploded. A shadow covering the world (at least Cerilia) is not out of the question and probably very realistic.

Remember that Cerilia is much smaller than most real world continents as much discussion over the years has pointed out.

The survivors would have know that Deismaar was destroyed since they were on the battlefield and the death of the old gods would likewise be equally known by them. It was a visable battle as the chroniclers state. These survivors became the first scions, while at first they did not know what had happened to them (again per the chroniclers) they did discover that they had been changed. These scions became the leaders of the lands across Cerilia and those they led could tell something was different. This has to do with the very nature of being a scion when around non-scions. So the &#39;stories&#39; they told would have had quite a bit of impact to those who weren&#39;t there and were emphasized by the manifestations of blood abilities. Then the stories were passed on through the generations.

So it is not unlikely that eventually across Cerilia the story of the old god&#39;s death and destruction of Deismaar would have been known with a generation. There are of course some isolated pockets that this would not be known, but those areas would be ones that weren&#39;t under the rule of a scion.

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, Gary wrote:



> At 02:12 PM 4/8/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:

>

> >Could elves cast realm spells before they had divine bloodlines? Or did

> >Desimaar open up this possibility for them, and perhaps stabilize the

> >balance of power between races at that point?

>

> I`d say that they could not cast realm spells, at least not standard, BR

> realm spells. RP are required to cast realm spells and the need for a

> bloodline to collect RP, the Sidhe (or anyone) did not have had access to

> either of those things before Deismaar, so they couldn`t have cast those

> spells.



The presence of RP in this discussion makes it strike me as a sub-part of

the age-old question, was their rulership, government or states of any

kind before Deismaar? After all, without RP, access to many domain

actions (especially Rule) is greatly restricted or even prohibited. My

personal inclination is to say that Deismaar did not really have the

effect that later chroniclers have attributed to it: there always were

bloodlines and RP collection and realm spells and such, but very few -- or

even no -- humans or goblins had such powers until after their old masters

destroyed each other in that battle. Elves and dwarves (and giants and

dragons), OTOH, I am inclined to regard as possessing bloodlines since

before even the evolution of sentience among humans/goblins/orogs etc.





Ryan Caveney

[geeman]

At 06:45 PM 4/12/2004 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:



> > >Could elves cast realm spells before they had divine bloodlines? Or did

> > >Desimaar open up this possibility for them, and perhaps stabilize the

> > >balance of power between races at that point?

> >

> > I`d say that they could not cast realm spells, at least not standard, BR

> > realm spells. RP are required to cast realm spells and the need for a

> > bloodline to collect RP, the Sidhe (or anyone) did not have had access to

> > either of those things before Deismaar, so they couldn`t have cast those

> > spells.

>

>The presence of RP in this discussion makes it strike me as a sub-part of

>the age-old question, was their rulership, government or states of any

>kind before Deismaar?



I think they are very similar issues. In the past what I`ve done is had

the domain level of other campaign worlds (sans RP) work pretty much like

it does in BR, but a "mundane" action round is a season rather than a month

and the "mundane" domain turn is a divided up into the four seasons rather

than the three months of the BR domain rules. Progress still happens (in

some cases at what is still an unrealistic pace) but having access to and

spending RP allows things to progress at a "magical" speed at which no

mundane ruler could hope to compete. It works surprisingly well.



Gary

[kgauck]

My take on Ryan`s question is that RP`s were managable prior to Deismaar,

either without bloodlines or with, but that this management was less

efficacious than post Deismaar bloodlines. I am inclined to think that

everything that can be done with RP`s from collection to storage, transfer,

everthing except use, had a 2/3`s loss penalty attached. So if the high

chief of the Andu had 12 levels of province, he`d get 4 RP.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

Kenneth, I will accept what you say and back down in the whole notion regarding the dodecatheon. As for the phrase I used, I essentially "revived" it, since its a word I have heard being used a few times... However, it is a term that I have heard being applied on other matters but still find applicable here; thus I used it. I do not know if experts do use it in regard to this matter (I don&#39;t know that many religiologists) but, since it applies on other such matter, I don&#39;t see why it shouldn&#39;t apply here.

[kgauck]

I have no objection to anyone coining a term, inventing new ideas, or

otherwise being creative. I just want to be able to correctly source ideas

so that I can attribute them, and do further research. As for applying

across disciplines or creating a new analysis, I am all for it. I have no

complaint with the term "raciosocial amalgum", I just wanted to know whether

I needed to trot down to the libary.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Gary wrote:



> At 06:45 PM 4/12/2004 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

>

> > The presence of RP in this discussion makes it strike me as a

> > sub-part of the age-old question, was there rulership, government

> > or states of any kind before Deismaar?

>

> I think they are very similar issues. In the past what I`ve done is had

> the domain level of other campaign worlds (sans RP) work pretty much like

> it does in BR, but a "mundane" action round is a season rather than a month

> and the "mundane" domain turn is a divided up into the four seasons rather

> than the three months of the BR domain rules.



Oh, quite good. What do you do about standard actions that have RP

requirements, though? Can no one Agitate, Fortify, create Trade Routes,

or Rule provinces and holdings above level 1? Good old "1 GB = 1 RP", or

something else? Also, presumably you collect taxation only once per year

(on the first action round of the domain turn)? Do you alter the time

scale of military operations at all?





At Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:22:05 -0500, Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote:



> My take on Ryan`s question is that RP`s were managable prior to

> Deismaar, either without bloodlines or with, but that this management

> was less efficacious than post Deismaar bloodlines. I am inclined to

> think that everything that can be done with RP`s from collection to

> storage, transfer, everthing except use, had a 2/3`s loss penalty

> attached. So if the high chief of the Andu had 12 levels of province,

> he`d get 4 RP.



I like this, too. Do you have some bloodline equivalent which you use to

impose a maximum on RP collection, or (given the overall reduction) do you

not bother?





One interesting similarity between these two approaches is that they both

reduce the pace of operations by roughly the same factor of three. For an

even slower (and perhaps even more realistically timed?) game, I would be

interested to try combining both approaches: keep RP costs as they are in

the usual game, but cut RP collection by three and stretch the notional

game-world timescale also. I don`t think the effect would be excessive, in

part because Gary`s suggestion on the surface does not change the pace of

purely game-mechanical development much at all -- the change to the time

scale is relevant almost solely when describing game actions in narrative

terms.





Ryan Caveney

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:30 PM





> I like this, too. Do you have some bloodline equivalent which

> you use to impose a maximum on RP collection, or (given the

> overall reduction) do you not bother?



Not only does the overall reduction obviate the need for an upper limit, but

its hard to hold a large real together with such a small pool of available

RP. The optimum realm size is the one where the ruler can solve as much as

possible with character and advenure actions. This is probabaly a realm of

3-4 provinces. You can increase or decrease this amount by how busy you

keep rulers.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 10:30 PM 4/13/2004 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:



>>In the past what I`ve done is had the domain level of other campaign

>>worlds (sans RP) work pretty much like it does in BR, but a "mundane"

>>action round is a season rather than a month and the "mundane" domain

>>turn is a divided up into the four seasons rather than the three months

>>of the BR domain rules.

>

>Oh, quite good. What do you do about standard actions that have RP

>requirements, though? Can no one Agitate, Fortify, create Trade Routes, or

>Rule provinces and holdings above level 1? Good old "1 GB = 1 RP", or

>something else?



"Standard RP" costs were pretty much ignored. That is, if it had a 1 RP

cost it was "free" to perform. Actually, it was assumed to be included in

the difficulty of the action, because actions that had 2+ RP costs altered

the DC ("chance of success" back then...) of the task. Since I play out

domain actions PCs got bonuses to their checks to determine success and

failure. Due to the much longer period of the actions/turns they had a lot

of time to perform adventure level activities to get those bonuses, so they

could assure success much the way RP do.



>Also, presumably you collect taxation only once per year (on the first

>action round of the domain turn)?



We collected taxes at the beginning of every domain turn/season IIRC.



>Do you alter the time scale of military operations at all?



At the time I didn`t because we didn`t do a lot of large scale combat, so

it didn`t come up. (The regents were primarily guilders and temple

holders.) If I were to do it now I`d likely keep the war move at 1 week,

but I`d have to think about that first.



Gary