Birthright's Planar System

[Elton Robb]

This poll is on the Birthright campiagn's planar cosmology. Since there is only a small amount of Gods, you get to give your voice on two choices:

Should they be situated on the Great Wheel?

Or Should the Gods have their own realms, and BR's cosmology picture be different?

[Raesene Andu]

I once did some work on a BR planar system. I don't have a copy of the info, but it is somewhere in the mailing list achrives.

Basically the realms of the gods were all on one plane, a vast ocean with an island for each god or power of Aebrynis.

The actually planar system went something like this.

Aebyrnis
Barrier/etheral plane (seperate real and shadow)
Shadow World
Elemental Planes
The Realm of the Dead
The Astral Plane (links to other worlds beyond Aebrynis).

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I had to say that BR counts as a "standard" world for purposes of determining its cosmology.BR may work much differently than Greyhawk or Realms(due to the fact that a percentage of the population has the essence of a god in their veins),and that almost made me choose that it has its own cosmology.But the gods in BR do act like the gods in other worlds.That is what made me choose that it shares the planes with the gods from Faerun and Oerth.


As far as I know,the only world that is odd like that is Dark Sun.It touches only the Astral and Ethereal Planes,which is why there are not too many PlaneWalkers from Athas.......

Just my two bits.

[Raesene Andu]

I am not entirely certain I would consider BR a standard world. Mainly due to the SW, it has a lot of effects on things, especially summonings. When casting a summoning spell, the creature summoned has to pass though the SW first before arriving of Aebrynis. This would tend to suggest to me that Aebrynis is not linked to any of the other planes, except via the SW, so there is a barrier between Aebrynis and the rest of the universe.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Ravenloft works like that as well......Part of it is because of the Dark Powers but also because of its location in the Deep Ethereal.


I can see both sides of the discussion and agree with both.But as far as it goes in my campaigns,it touches all the Planes just as Greyhawk or Realms does.

[Temujin]

Refering to the Book of Priestcraft, you'll note that they included the god's plane and domain:

Avani: The Gleaming Spire/Mechanus
Erik: Nature's Rest/Outlands
Haelyn: Honor's Glory/Mount Celestia
Belinik: The Striving/Pandemonium(2nd Layer)
Nesirie: The Waves of Grief/Elysium(Thalasia)
Sera: The Marketplace Eternal/The Outlands
Cuiraécen: Cuiraécen's Festhall/Ysgard
Eloéle: Endless Maze/Pandemonium(1st Layer)
Kriesha: The Steadfast Chill/Baator(Stygia)
Laerme: Songsheight/Arborea(Olympus)
Ruornil: The Silver Lands/Outlands

So yes, the gods are on the planes of Planescape, however I don't think anybody in BR understands the mechanic of the planes per se, so the cosmology of BR probably consists only of the 11 god's realms, the Shadow World, the Elemental Planes, the Ethereal and the Astral(these two probably only known to sages) and of course, Aebrynnis itself, at the center.

Hope that helps.

[Raesene Andu]

I'm aware that in the BoP the god's realms are mentioned as being on the various planes that you have listed, but at the time I think TSR was trying to link all settings to Planescape, so I think we can disregard this when designing the BR cosmology. (I would keep the names though...) Below is my original post to the mailing list, which I have finally been able to find (note that my idea changed somewhat after this). Comments anyone?


1. The Elemental Plane of Fire
2. The Elemental Plane of Earth
3. The Plane of Positive Energy Aebrynis
4. The Etheral Plane
5. The Plane of Negitive Energy The Shadow World
6. The Elemental Plane of Water
7. The Elemental Plane of Air
8. The Land of the Dead Dominion of the Cerilian
Gods
9. The Astral Plane Passage to other
worlds/dimension etc not related to Cerilia

The Land of the Dead is a vast ocean of icy cold water that is filled with the twisted souls of the damned and the faithless. In this ocean are islands where each of the Cerilian gods have their domains. I have used the same names as in the BOP for these, but added in some descriptions.
Those who are true to their gods are permitted access to their gods realms for eternity. This is about 1-3% of worshippers, depending on the god.
Those who worship a god, but have strayed in their faith in some way are usually reincarnated for another chance at life. This covers most of the god's worshippers.
Those who betray their gods (Kill priests, destroy temple, etc) are damned for all eternity and cast into the ocean of grief. This is usually very few.
Those who choose not to worship any god at all, or worship a
non-existant power are also condemned to the ocean.

Each of the gods worshipped on Cerilia has an island or continent (depending on number of worshipers) in the ocean. This island increases in size as the god's power power grows, or more of their worshippers are allow to entire. The land of the dead has no defined size though so the exapnding size of these regions does not diminish the avalible space on
the plane. Because I only have a short amount of time I will only list the domains of the human gods here.

Avani: The Gleaming Spire.
This is a great city in the khinasi style, built around an peaceful
oasis. Avani's palace which is the cities center piece is a tall spire of gold in the centre of the oasis, build around it are plaza's, librarys, bathhouses and all the luxuries afforded to the richest sultans of Cerilia. Those honoured worshippers who follow the light of reason during their lives and never stray from the path set out by Avani are permitted access to an eternity of luxury. It is a land of warmth, and peace where no battle occur and nothing is out of place. Surrounding the city is a large desert that eventually leads down to the ocean.

Erik: Nature's Rest.
Erik's domain is a continent sized island that is almost an exact copy of Cerilia, except Cerilia as it would have been without any intelligent beings living on it. Food is easy to come by and the worshippers of Erik lucky enough to make it here travel the lands marvelling at the natural wonders.

Haelyn: Honour's Glory.
Only the most just and noble beings may enter the halls of Haelyn's castle, all others are either cast into the ocean or more likely reincarnated. Honour's Glory is a land of rolling hills and grassland, dotted with castles and manors for the greatest of Haelyn's heros. It represents Anuire as Haelyn would like to see it where all follow the law and war are fought to rule of warfare. Haelyn spends his time here challenging the greatest and most noble generals of Anuire and other lands to mock battles among the faithful who have been granted life in
this realm. These battles resemble giant games of chess where none are killed or injured. Haelyn sees life as a chance for each being to gain his or her full pontential so will only grant access to his realm to those who he thinks are worthy.

Belinik: The Striving.
Unlike Haelyn's realm, the land that is home to Belinik's faithful is a gloomy and desolute place where warriors who served him in life now fight for him in death. Here the strongest battle the weak to gain their lord's notice. Belinik allows any who wish to enter access to his realm, but they must fight for their survival. Those who do not succeed are cast out, and returned to Cerilia for another chance at life while those
powerful enough to survive here may remain. In the Striving the warriors must battle their way up the rungs of power. For those who are at the top there are luxuries and wealth beyound the imagining while those at the bottom are condemn to live in the cold hills that cover this realm.

Nesirie: The Waves of Grief.
The domain of the goddess of the sea is a small group of islands that rise up out of the ocean of grief like jagged spikes. Each is carved into fantastic towers and castles. These buildings are home to Nesirie's faithful, who are live surrounded by all the wealth the sea can provide. They eat the finest seafood, and live in grottos of sand, lined with pearls and feathersoft seaweed. Nesirie has few true worshippers, and only a few of these are every allowed into her domain.
Nesirie's faithful are also the only ones who are permitted to travel the ocean, usually in boats native to their homelands. They are not permitted to set foot in the domains of the other gods though.

Sera: The Market Place Eternal.
As goddess of wealth and luck, sera's domain is devoted to just that. It is a vast city that streaches of miles in each direction where those who have worshipped Sera in life may continue their pursuits in death. For craftsmen such as woodworks and armourers they can work here with the greats who have come before them and are allowed umlimited access to the
finest materials to create great works. The city in fact resembles a vast market places where traders and merchants barter for their goods. It is a happy and entertaining place to spend eternity. Sera allows only her most faithful worshippers entrance to her realm, as well as the greatest craftsmen and merchants.

Cuiraecen: Cuiraecen's Feasthall.
This is a place of warrior. A gigantic hall that sit on the top of a
steep sided hill, surrounded by storm clouds. Here the greatest
warriors, who followed Cuiraecen in life, celebrate their success in battle with him now. The hall is home to a continous feast where warriors may enjoy the spoils of the victories in life.

Eloele: Endless Maze.
This was originally a copy of Sera's market place, created shortly after the birth of the goddess of thieves. Over time though the goddess' nature has grown more chaotic and it now resembles a vast maze of streets, alleys and squares. Anyone who enters (except the gods) will find themselves soon lost in the twisting passages and will be trapped for eternity. Eloele, who has few true worshippers allow any she thinks worthy (around 10-25% of her worshippers) access to this domain.
Unlike Sera's realm the Endless maze is a city of taverns, brothels, gambling halls, and other similar establishments. The most powerful of Eloele's dead live in large palaces and the rest seek to steal from them to gain the wealth necessary to become rich and powerful themselves.

Kriesha: The Steadfast Chill.
For one of the evil gods this realm is a place of breathtaking beauty. It brings together all the best parts of a snowcovered, icy landscape and combines them into the single realm. Palaces of ice lie scattered across the landscape and are home to the faithful of Kriesha, while outside a cold wind blows, and pack of wolves and other monster roam.
Those who have been faithful to Kriesha in life are permitted access to the palaces.

Laerme: Songsheight.
The realm of Laerme is a large college of knowledge, song, and art. Scholars, painters, sculpters, and other artist roam the ground of the college enjoying the garden of fruits trees and flower beds. Like Eloele's realm there is little order here. The sun shines all the time and the faithful keep whatever hours they choose, free to enjoy what ever pleasure they desire.

Ruornil: The Silver Lands.
The name of this realm refers to the lake of mercury that cover much of the domain. Here Ruornil's faithful construct magnificent building of magic and devote their eternity to studing the magical arts. Magic is a chaotic art from, and this place is a land of chaos, ever changing and altering its form. Great wizards of the past each shape their own regions into the forms they desire, and share their art with each other.

There was some further discussion on the mailing list about this, but I dodn't keep a copy of those messages. You may be able to find them in the mailing list archive (somewhere around or after the 12 of june 1998).

[Temujin]

You're of course free to change whatever that is you don't like about the setting, I don't mind that. Personally though, I don't mind that BR is linked to Planescape, I usually don't give much thoughts to the other planes in a game of pure BR, and don't see the point of building a new set of planes when we already have a de-facto one that perfectly makes sense. And when I want the planes to be in, I usually play a game of Planescape, with BR only included if I want my character to come from there. I don't see the point of changing the canon and making it canon however, especially in this case.

[Elton Robb]

Hmm.

Maybe I should tell you that 3E allows for a different planar picture. This time, we can make one that is distinctively Cerilian in nature.

[Baragos]

I think BR's planar system should be other than the Great Wheel. Not that I don't like Planescape, but it is entirely un-Birthrightish to have people from Sigil come to BirthRight or the other way around. I like the idea of the great planar ocean. In many ways that links with several real-world mythologies, in which the gods lived in/on the other side of the ocean. Another possibility is to use a cosmology with 1 Hellish lower plane where all the evil gods and demons live and 1 Good Heaven where the good guys live.

Baragos

[Baragos]

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms don't share them same cosmology anymore.

Baragos

[Green Knight]

The Wheel is as good as any other solution. BR PC dont frequent the god's realms, they have their own :P

[Riegan Swordwraith]

If you don't want players from other realms(FR,GH,etc.,etc....)just meandering through,you can just say that Cerilia is isolated like Dark Sun is.The only ways to get to Cerilia is through the Astral and Ethereal Planes,and/or through the Planes that Cerilias Gods live on.Means someone from Sigil will have to work his butt off to get to Cerilia.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Personally, I thought the Planescape campaign (and spelljammer campaign) were two of my favorite campaigns. The idea that all of the sudden, 3E means that all the cosmos has changed is silly, and I ignore it.

[Baragos]

Are there any mentioning of the Birthright (2nd edition) cosmology being connected to the great wheel? I haven't found any, but then again I don't have all the sourcebooks. I like Spelljammer and Planescape, but the two have a special feeling that is very un-BR. BR is not high fantasy in the way Spelljammer is. And it is not as dark and apocalyptic as Planescape. Further, SJ and PS would take some of the attention away from the power struggle between the Cerilian nations. If gigantic deamonic armies are fighting a war that has been going on for several eternities, then what matters the 600-year chaos in Cerilian politics. And if spaceborn armies of mindflayers and beholders, to name a few, could be dropping by any minute, then how terrible (and unigue) are the awnshelien? I think the answer is tied together with the reason for limiting the number of living dragons in BR. The small number makes each unigue and very hard to kill. What dungeon master would like to add dragons to the list of extinct species? Not me. In FR or Greyhawk I don't mind the players fighting dragons now and then (even though I try to make the fight more lethal than if it had been "normal" opponents). But in BR I have only used a dragon once, and then it was only indirectly used. The PCs had heard rumours of an alliance between their arch-enemy and a dragon. In reality it was a powerful magician who had created an illusion of said dragon to scare the local population.
To finish this rather long message: I don't think BR should be connected to SJ or PS for the above reasons.

Baragos

[Arius Vistoon]

BR shoud be connected with PS and SJ whitout any adventure talk about that !!!
Ghurally ( in Rjurik kingdom ) received powerfull abilities from a baatezu lord ( perhaps a blood war warrior of Abyss ) PS connected with BR !
But, it's rare, and not big impact ( execpt if PJ and .....DM explore this way...) in BR campaign.

My idea, it's that BR is connected with PS and SJ ( perhaps crytal sphere is hermetic and contained few way for travel throught in )

[Baragos]

I think it could be okay, but then the connections would have to be minimal. It should be very difficult to get to and fro the Planes/other crystal spheres. The reason I think it shouldn't be connected is that, except for Moradin and the demon lords, I have found no mentioning of the connection. In FR/Greyhawk they do talk about the other planes. People (read: adventurers) do travel between the realms, and cosmology is "common knowledge". That is not the case in BR, and IMO it should stay that way.

Baragos

[Riegan Swordwraith]

That can be said that there is no interest in the Planes,just as there is none in Dragonlance.

In the Spelljammer sense,the sysytem Cerilia sits in is isolated from the Phlogoston(sp?),so therefore Spelljammers cannot reach it.

In Planescape terms,the only portals that go to Cerilia are in the Astral and Ethereal Planes,and can be found on the Planes where the Gods of Cerilia live.There also just could be no interest in Cerilia from a PlaneWalkers POV.

If you want to go through all the work to make all this new stuff,all power to ya.All I am doing is showing that you can have a world that in the grand scope of things is connected to everything,but doesn't have to be a part of it.

[Baragos]

As long as the focus of BR remains on BR and not the Planes/SpellJamming I'm cool. All I'm saying is that BR and hopping around in other worlds do not belong together. Its fine to send the PCs of to the Shadow World as it is an integrated thing, but sending them of to Hell or what have you, is IMO against the spirit of the setting. That of course doesn't have to mean that no connections exist. Demons might "easily" be able to get from the planes to Cerilia. Humans might have a very difficult time. Perhaps the connection lies in the Shadow World?

Baragos

[Lord Eldred]

I think the Shadow World makes it necessary to have a different planar system but I think someone made this argument. So I won't say much more.

[Mark_Aurel]

Birthright should most definitely have a different cosmology from other D&D worlds. Defining or agreeing upon something appropriate becomes the big issue.

The Shadow World as is is pretty similar to the Plane of Shadow and the Plane of Shadow can be used for the Shadow World with relative ease. There has been little or no mention of other ways to cross the planes in Birthright, so one would have to come up with something appropriate or even say that the Shadow World is the only link to other realms (it used to be different before Deismaar) - strictly speaking, transitive planes aren't even necessary - the realms of the gods could touch directly upon Cerilia.

As for the properties of the realms themselves, these can be extrapolated from existing materials with relative ease, I think.

Finally, another thought that may have some merit would be to add planar traits to some provinces - Elven provinces could have traits similar to the Plane of Faerie, some awnshegh provinces could be sinkholes of evil, etc. I think the Manual of Planes provided some good tools for giving game mechanical traits to some of the "special" areas of Cerilia in this regard.

[the Silver Prince]

Whatever planar system is adopted there should be some thought about celestials and fiends. Either they should work for the gods directly and live on their home planes or they should have their own planes. You have to remeber that if any planes are cut some spells will not work and some outsiders will not exist.

[jimi]

I dont see there is a problem here.
A particular world's cosmology is derived for the viewpoint of its inhabitants. As par as Aebrynis is concerned the inhabitants would be aware of the planes (for example the homes of the gods, demons, devils etc) but (except for a few with Planr knowledge) would not be aware that those planes are shared by other Outisiders.

There are several links in published BR products to the Planescape univese both implied and specific (the Sword of Roele) specifically refere to the Shadow World as the "Demiplane of Shadow". And several planescape products refer to Aebynis (and also the difficulty of getting there (through the Shadow World)

In the new MotP read the description of the Plane of Shadow - not a million miles away from the Shadow World! The designation of the Shadow World as a Transitive Plane makes even more sense in this context.

If the Shadow Plane is the only Transitive Plane that connects to Aebrynis (poss. because of Deismar) I dont see any problem with using the standard of Planescape cosmolgy.

I've used both Planar and Spelljamming elemnts in my home campaing with no noticable problems (aside from introducing Mind-flayers to Cerillia which caused some interesting dillemmas !!!

[Lord Grave]

> There are several links in published BR products to the
> Planescape univese both implied and specific (the Sword of
> Roele) specifically refere to the Shadow World as the
> "Demiplane of Shadow". And several planescape products
> refer to Aebynis (and also the difficulty of getting there
> (through the Shadow World)

In Iron Throne, it is said that Shadow World was Fairy World, before the
Cold Rider came. I don`t think that Fairy World would be a part of
Demiplane of Shadow.

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[jimi]

If you read at the MotP its clear that the Planes are mutable (especially to the actions of Gods)

Places are not necessarily fixed in the planes, nor are planar boundaries unchanging. There is enough evidence of this in Planescape and other sources (even in the Planescape:Torment game one of the Border towns is dragged down to Carceri)

Perhaps some climactic event caused Aebrynis's Fairy World (part of the Plane of Faery) to be "swamped" by the Plane of Shadow - some machination of Azrai, perhaps, to increase his power.

This might make even more sense if you consider some of the concepts of Shadow Magic and the Shadow Weave from the FR campaign setting. This would make powerful magic available to Azrai's followers.

It would also benefit Azrai by alienating a popwerful source of good (the seelie court) and damaging the most powerful demihuman race -the elves- by splitting them from their faery counterparts (cf The Book of Shadow).

[Ariadne]

I think Aebrynnis should by part of the great wheel. In the planscape book "on hallowed ground" (ok, 2nd Edition) the realms of the gods are described and the outer planes also exist in the 3rd edition. So I don't think the realm names or planes should be changed. (Maybe someone said that allready)


In my oppinion the shadow world is an equivalent to the Astral or Etheral plane (sorry, but which I forgot). So it might be, that you can travel to other planes through it.

[marcum uth mather]

if the cosmos is diffrent, would the hevenly and hellish servents be diffrent to? would a D.M. use baatsue or tenarie (demon, or devile, dang spelling:p) what would the good powers use ase servents. If its a unique cosmos, then would only souls of former worshipers be found in the afterlife? Could deismaar have been so climactic in a spiritsual way to have sundered BR from the rest of the universe? this would explain how treped deamons got there in the first place. before deismaar BR was part of planescape. After deismaar they were cut of due to the death of the gods.

[jimi]

Some food for thought.

1. The Planes were clearly part of 2E Birthright, the Sword of Roele in particular used them as a major plot device and used a powerfulPlanar being (the Monkey King) as an NPC. The Plancescape setting material cleary refrences Aebrynis and the BR gods in several books (and acknowledges the difficulties of the Shadow World). If the new conversion departs from this established continuity then it runs the risk of seeming somehow less like an "official" product.

2. There are a wholw mess of people out there running Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk etc. etc. if we "detach" from the standard cosmology and established system we're potentially cutting those people off from running their parties though a "visit to Aebrynis" scenario which may in turn encourage them to run more Birthright. If we want the setting to survive and grow we need hooks to encourage more players, not take potential hooks for other DMs out !

3. Birthright is a "Dungeons & Dragons" Campaing Setting, if we "lose" the connection to the wider D&D universe we run the risk of becoming just another d20 setting !

just my two cents worth :)

[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> 1. The Planes were clearly part of 2E Birthright, the Sword of Roele
> in particular used them as a major plot device and used a
> powerfulPlanar being (the Monkey King) as an NPC. The Plancescape
> setting material cleary refrences Aebrynis and the BR gods in several
> books (and acknowledges the difficulties of the Shadow World). If the
> new conversion departs from this established continuity then it runs
> the risk of seeming somehow less like an "official" product.

This is not really a convincing argument. Some adventures for BR
have a distinctly less BRish feel than the campaign setting material :)
Warlock has an underdark, another one (I don`t recall which) features a
couple of drow, and if Sword of Roele features an extraplanar being, it
could easily be discounted like those other non-BRish elements.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Mark_Aurel]

1. ALL of TSR's official 2e campaigns were linked to the official cosmology. This is no longer the case. The MotP serves an example cosmology based around Greyhawk. FR has its own cosmology now, which has nothing to do with the Planescape cosmology anymore. Probably same with Dragonlance, or Dark Sun. Of the old standard worlds, Birthright was the least "cosmically oriented" world, and cosmology doesn't mean that much - however, the Planescape cosmology is not well suited to BR to begin with. Too much baggage.

2. Cross-selling like that won't work.

3. Dungeons & Dragons is a set of rules, not a consistent world.

The references to BR in PS products were there for the sake of completeness. The references to the PS cosmology in BR products were mostly in second-rate or third-rate products, the BoP being the main exception. The BR cosmology should be based around the godly realms as outlined in the BoP.

[jimi]

Agreed TSR tried to link everything together under the Planescape banner, heck they even dropped a little piece of Cerillia into Ravenloft, but why is that a bad thing? The point has been made this detracts from the "BR-ness" of the setting, but the fact it exists in published material makes it de facto part of the setting.

The revised MotP still allows for movement between different Prime Material Planes (interestingly if I remember it right the method it uses is via the Plane of Shadow!). The cosmology of a particular world is just that world's view on the multiverse. The multiverse is not actually aligned in a Great Wheel (or in that Tree-thing they use in FR) so whatever view of the cosmos is appropriate to Aebrynis is only appropriate to Aebrynis!

All I'm saying is leave the hooks there.

WotC left enough hooks in MotP (Sigil etc) to keep the Planescape fans happy and also left the door open for moving between worlds, why not do the same for Birthtright 3E? The fact that the continuity is already established is a bonus.

[Lee]

In a message dated 7/23/02 8:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:

<< jimi wrote:
Some food for thought.

1. The Planes were clearly part of 2E Birthright, the Sword of Roele in
particular used them as a major plot device and used a powerfulPlanar being
(the Monkey King) as an NPC. The Plancescape setting material cleary
refrences Aebrynis and the BR gods in several books (and acknowledges the
difficulties of the Shadow World). If the new conversion departs from this
established continuity then it runs the risk of seeming somehow less like an
"official" product. >>

Funny. I`m pretty sure I read that Cerilia/Aebrynnis were stated to be
cut off from the rest of the Planes.

<< 2. There are a wholw mess of people out there running Forgotten Realms,
Greyhawk etc. etc. if we "detach" from the standard cosmology and
established system we`re potentially cutting those people off from running
their parties though a "visit to Aebrynis" scenario which may in turn
encourage them to run more Birthright. If we want the setting to survive and
grow we need hooks to encourage more players, not take potential hooks for
other DMs out ! >>

That`s entirely up to the players and DM, isn`t it? I`ve been playing
this setting since it came out, and we`ve never had a desire, or seen a need
to hook in people from other worlds.

<< 3. Birthright is a "Dungeons & Dragons" Campaing Setting, if we
"lose" the connection to the wider D&D universe we run the risk of becoming
just another d20 setting ! >>

D&D (that is to say, TSR/WotC) let BR go years ago. Greyhawk is the
declared default for 3e. We _are_ just another D&D setting. The coolest
one, IMO.

Lee.

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[Trithemius]

Lee Hanna:
> Funny. I`m pretty sure I read that Cerilia/Aebrynnis
> were stated to be cut off from the rest of the Planes.

I recall that they say that portals to Aerbrynis are very very very rare
as most portals on Aerbrynis lead to the Shadow World. Slightly less
rare than portals to Athas perhaps, but still pretty darn rare. Its all
in the Planescape Planewalkers Guide IIRC.

> D&D (that is to say, TSR/WotC) let BR go years ago.
> Greyhawk is the declared default for 3e. We _are_ just
> another D&D setting. The coolest one, IMO.

Woo yeah! Tell it like it is! ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Daniel McSorely:
> This is not really a convincing argument. Some adventures
> for BR have a distinctly less BRish feel than the campaign
> setting material :) Warlock has an underdark, another one (I
> don`t recall which) features a couple of drow, and if Sword
> of Roele features an extraplanar being, it could easily be
> discounted like those other non-BRish elements.

Grrrarrr! Smash BR adventures!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

jimi:
> Some food for thought.
>
> 1. The Planes were clearly part of 2E Birthright, the Sword
> of Roele in particular used them as a major plot device and
> used a powerfulPlanar being (the Monkey King) as an NPC. The
> Plancescape setting material cleary refrences Aebrynis and
> the BR gods in several books (and acknowledges the
> difficulties of the Shadow World). If the new conversion
> departs from this established continuity then it runs the
> risk of seeming somehow less like an "official" product.
>
> 2. There are a wholw mess of people out there running
> Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk etc. etc. if we "detach" from
> the standard cosmology and established system we`re
> potentially cutting those people off from running their
> parties though a "visit to Aebrynis" scenario which may in
> turn encourage them to run more Birthright. If we want the
> setting to survive and grow we need hooks to encourage more
> players, not take potential hooks for other DMs out !
>
> 3. Birthright is a "Dungeons & Dragons" Campaing Setting,
> if we "lose" the connection to the wider D&D universe we
> run the risk of becoming just another d20 setting !
>
> just my two cents worth :)

I would say: So what?

List discussion has already largely determined that if in order to
properly realise the setting using d20 we need to break with D&D canon
then so be it. I don`t care if Prince Avan will never meet Lidda the
Halfing, or if Haelyn won`t ever be ranked alongside Pelor or Erythnul.
I don`t think that the generic D&D setting (a.k.a. Greyhawk) needs to be
linked to or incorporated with the BR setting.

One final note: I like planehopping as much as the next guy (more
possibly) but I don`t think BR needs it.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[A_dark]

I do have the planes in my campaigns. All the stuff about Baator, Mt Celestia and all that shit, but the players and pretty much nobody in the world knows about these things. It is not an omission that no priest has the Astral sphere and it is not an accident that there are no known planehoppers dropping by (apart for rumours about Adriala the Dark or Rheulaan Greencloack that are up to the DM basically)

So, what I am trying to say is that for simplicity's sake and because I like the Great Wheel, my campaigns follow that multiverse idea, but there is NO way that ANY character will EVER get to go to the planes from Aebrynnis. There are only a handful of exceptions and they do not involve my PCs.

I do believe that there are sufficient references about the planes in the books. Both in the BoP when it lists the houses of the gods and the adventures "Warlock of the Stonecrown" and the "Sword of Roele". There are portals in those two adventures and creatures from the planes, a deva, some demons and stuff like that. But that does not mean that any PC will ever get to see what lies beyond. I have yet to allow my PCs to enter the Shadow World, let alone a whole different plane :P

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 05:50, Lee Hanna wrote:

In a message dated 7/23/02 8:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:

<< jimi wrote:
Some food for thought.

1. The Planes were clearly part of 2E Birthright, the Sword of Roele in
particular used them as a major plot device and used a powerfulPlanar being
(the Monkey King) as an NPC. The Plancescape setting material cleary
refrences Aebrynis and the BR gods in several books (and acknowledges the
difficulties of the Shadow World). If the new conversion departs from this
established continuity then it runs the risk of seeming somehow less like an
"official" product. >>

Funny. I`m pretty sure I read that Cerilia/Aebrynnis were stated to be
cut off from the rest of the Planes.

me too. but consistency hasn`t been a strong-point in D&D.


<< 2. There are a wholw mess of people out there running Forgotten Realms,
Greyhawk etc. etc. if we "detach" from the standard cosmology and
established system we`re potentially cutting those people off from running
their parties though a "visit to Aebrynis" scenario which may in turn
encourage them to run more Birthright. If we want the setting to survive and
grow we need hooks to encourage more players, not take potential hooks for
other DMs out ! >>

That`s entirely up to the players and DM, isn`t it? I`ve been playing
this setting since it came out, and we`ve never had a desire, or seen a need
to hook in people from other worlds.

<< 3. Birthright is a "Dungeons & Dragons" Campaing Setting, if we
"lose" the connection to the wider D&D universe we run the risk of becoming
just another d20 setting ! >>

D&D (that is to say, TSR/WotC) let BR go years ago. Greyhawk is the
declared default for 3e. We _are_ just another D&D setting. The coolest
one, IMO.


hoo yeah!

Lee.

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