Princely Titles

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Neil Barnes
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 3:59 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - circular vassalage


>
>On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
>> >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
>> >
>> >There are three meanings of the word prince
>>
>> Actually, it's five.
>>
>> 1. A nonreigning member of a royal family
>> (Prince Andrew? )
>
>Are you sure you don't mean Phil the Greek? Andrew is (still) the son of
>the soverign.


That may be a better example, so let's use it instead

>> 3. The son of a sovereign, or of a son of sovereign
>> (Prince Charles, Henry, William)
>
>Don't forget that Charles is actually Prince of Wales - at one point
>Wales was actually intended as a training ground for future english
>Kings to make their Mistakes in :).


That's merely the title of the actual heir to the British Throne, though
in history it was also the title of the Monarch of Wales..

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

Prince Philip, duke of Edinburgh, is not a prince, he is a duke. The use
of Prince before his name is a courtesy title in recognition of the fact
that he is married to the queen. However, you will see that in correct
usage, when he is refered to by title, he is the duke of Edinburgh. You
will see "the duke did this", "the duke of Edinburgh said that", or
"Prince Philip went there". Likewise in France, the heirs of nobility
were sometimes refered to a princes. This is another courtesy. In
England the heir was often given a lessor title held by the noble.

There were no Princes of Wales, before it became the title of the heir to
the English crown. In many sources you will see references to celitic
(Irish, Welsh, Breten, Cornish, even Scottish) princes. This is noting
more than a conventional way of rendering the highest level of the old
Gaelic nobility, which had fewer grades than the Anglo-Norman or
Carolingian system. The word king started off with pretty humble origins,
meaning meaning king of the tribe. Rex also started as a local soveriegn.
The idea that a king (koenig) or rex (roi) was an overlord of great lands
became established in the later dark ages.

BTW, the old URL I gave for the web page on titles is outdated. The new
one is http://www.heraldica.org/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: c558382@showme.missouri.edu
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Princely Titles




>There were no Princes of Wales, before it became the title of the heir to
>the English crown.

Not so, for Llewelyn the Great, in recognizing Henry III of England as
his overlord, became Prince of Wales, though shortly losing his throne
to Edward I, who made his son the Prince of Wales and of course heir
to the throne.