Maps

[Jaime T. Matthew]

> > Weeelll. Since I'm playing a reegent of Ilien at the moment, I've got
> > some perspeective on this one. No offeense to the author of the Player's
> > Secrets, but the map of Ilien is _horrible_. Not as bad as it could be,
> > but pretty boring. If we do Ilien as a city (the votes seem to be for
> > the Imperial City thou') we'd have to redo the map.
> >
> Illien map is so bad, it's worse than the Endier map. . .and that's pretty
> bad. Illien map is hardly adiquate for a city of it's size, and is just a jumble
> of huts, basically, with a wall and a castle to one side. It's so bad, I
> could do better. . .and that's pretty bad.

Uh folks, I see a trend here....

I was running an adventure set in Talinie, and while I was working on
converting the NPCs into the Hero System (see my page for details), I
asked my friend, Mike Figueroa, a geographer at UCSB to transplant a
section of the city onto a battlemat for me to use. He was astounded
when he noticed the scale of the city. If you examine it closely you
discover that some of the streets are 200 feet wide! Does the Thane
regularly have parades through the entire town? Even the average
street is 100 feet wide.

It is this sort of lack of attention to detail that often drives me
to distraction with TSR products.

Has anyone examined the niceties of Harn city maps lately? They
boggle the mind with their incredible attention to detail. I love
Cerilia, but if I had discovered Harn first...it might be a different
story. So, like any sane person, I just borrow the maps for use in
my game.

I don't expect the BR maps to be perfect, but would it kill someone
to get a real geographer to examine the artist's and writer's notes?

Food for thought.

Jaime
__________________________________________________ ____
Jaime T. Matthew
mrjamela@writeme.com
http://www.geocities.com/~mrjamela

[Daniel McSorley]

>I was running an adventure set in Talinie, and while I was working on
>converting the NPCs into the Hero System (see my page for details), I
>asked my friend, Mike Figueroa, a geographer at UCSB to transplant >a
>section of the city onto a battlemat for me to use. He was astounded
>when he noticed the scale of the city. If you examine it closely you
>discover that some of the streets are 200 feet wide! Does the Thane
>regularly have parades through the entire town? Even the average
>street is 100 feet wide.

>It is this sort of lack of attention to detail that often drives me
>to distraction with TSR products.

I have to agree here, there are some astounding irregularities w/ some of
the TSR maps and their descriptions. I'll only give my favorite: In the
City of Greyhawk boxed set, it referred to the 1000 foot width of the grand
promenade, or whatever they called the main street there. This has to be
wrong, because by the map, the smallest street shown would've been 500 feet
or so wide, and the promenade would have been around 100(? IDHTBIFOM) miles
long, from the southern gate to the northern citadel, where it ended.

Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[CBebris@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-01-30 20:39:12 EST, you write:

>

Would it be less distracting if the street names were printed in type so small
that you needed a magnifying glass to read them? :-)

Yes, I will concede that 200 feet is amazingly wide for a medieval street and
that realistically the roads should be narrower. You are correct. But if
rendering a city map in such strict detail sacrifices useability, has
something more important than 100% realism been lost?

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

>On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 CBebris@aol.com wrote: I've seen real
> medieval/Renaissance maps that were less accurate (the phrase "beyond
here there be dragons" comes to mind...).
>
> Carrie Bebris

In agreeing with Carrie's main point I would like to take issue with the
much smaller point above to make my own point. Maps are made to convey
information. An accurate representation of lots of quantities (how big
the streets are for example) is only one possible kind of information.
Most maps before triangulation (begun on a large scale in France under
Colbert in the c17 and finished during the mid c18) were strictly
navigational. How do I get from point A to point B. Other maps portrayed
other kinds of information (where are my lands) that could be even less
perceptible. Since we have already learned a new pronunciation system, a
new system of ranks (why is count below baron ?!?), it would be a bit much
to ask us to learn to read mappaemundi (tripart maps common in the middle
ages).

Accept that the maps are intended to provide a limited amount of
information and that some details were not provided. Some are difficult
to convey, some are difficult to represent. Map making is a series of
comprimises.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[James Ruhland]

>
> Accept that the maps are intended to provide a limited amount of
> information and that some details were not provided. Some are difficult
> to convey, some are difficult to represent. Map making is a series of
> comprimises.
>
Ok, agreed; but what I'm looking for in a fantasy RPG city map isn't
something that gets every detail exactly correct, but is 1) aesthetically
pleasing (I.E. Illien's map is not) and 2) includes the basic, "big
picture" architecture for a city of the size/importance/age of whichever
city we're dealing with (I.E. a city of 70,000 people with one smallish
temple. . .not gonna cut it).
I.E. I don't mind that every little detail isn't included, but I do mind
when it's obvious that *attention* to detail was ignored/neglected. If
urban maps are going to be tossed in as an afterthought at the end of the
process, then I'd rather 'em not be put in at all; my map-making skills
aint so hot, but my imagination is much better than the Illien & Endier
maps; however, they're stuck in my head, now. . .

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

> I'd rather 'em not be put in at all; my map-making skills
> aint so hot, but my imagination is much better than the Illien & Endier
> maps; however, they're stuck in my head, now. . .

My recomendation, as with all BR defects, is to use that map as a kind of
"player knowledge". You have your map, they go by the Player's Secrets
map. They might be way off (mostly in distance, sometimes in detail,
rarely in essentials), or they may just off enough to know that such a map
is imprecise.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[Jaime T. Matthew]

> Would it be less distracting if the street names were printed in type so small
> that you needed a magnifying glass to read them? :-)

Is that the real problem here? The scale? I think in part it is.
With the Domain guides, each of the city maps have been reduced to 2
8.5 x 11 pieces of paper. I think we can all agree that this is too
little space to properly render a city the size of Nowelton or any of
the others with any degree of detail. Now, while I know that you
aren't currently plannying to do any more of these books, perhaps in
future BR products which include maps, you could try to make them
folded posters (such as the main BR region maps). This would give
your map designers more room to comfortably add enough detail to make
the maps more than interesting player handouts (which is what I
primarily use them for at this point).

> Yes, I will concede that 200 feet is amazingly wide for a medieval street and
> that realistically the roads should be narrower. You are correct. But if
> rendering a city map in such strict detail sacrifices useability, has
> something more important than 100% realism been lost?

I would argue that detail never harms useability, whereas a lack of
detail can render something useless pretty quickly.

Now, given that these cities are really just "sketches" I'm not
terribly bothered by the lack of detail -- it just limits what I can
and cannot use the map for.

Regarding realism, I'd point you again to the Harn maps. Every now
and again, someone in this industry sets a standard that everyone
else should strive for. In my opinion, Harn has demonstrated that
detailed, interesting, and accurate mapping are not unattainable (or
even unreasonable) goals.

> because they're lazy or unknowledgeable. It's because they're human.

Without examining their resumes, I'm not going to make any further
implications as to their qualifications for creating viable maps. I
have no doubt that they turn silk purses out of sows ears, and I
certainly have no mapping skills whatsoever, but perhaps TSR needs a
geographic editor to proof the maps in much the same way that you
check and re-check the text for accuracy and viability.

> I have learned a lot from TSR's cartographers. To imply that they aren't
> "real" professionals is grossly unfair.

You are absolutely right. That isn't exactly what I meant, but it is
certainly how it came across. Sorry about that.

> I sincerely apologize for any frustration the 200-foot roads on the Nowelton
> map caused you. But as the editor of Talinie, I believe this map serves its
> primary purpose: offering a bird's eye view of the city, showing where its
> various districts are located and their relative sizes, and indicating the
> city's major streets. I've seen real medieval/Renaissance maps that were less
> accurate (the phrase "beyond here there be dragons" comes to mind...).

And it does all that -- and more besides. Accept that our hunger for
more will NEVER be satisfied. Such is also human nature.

You also need to consider what purpose the map (and those from the
other supplements) will be put towards. As a player hand-out, it is
perfect. It is easily reduced to one page, and gives them more
detail than they probably need. As a GM map, it is useful for
locating parts of the adventure, and creating the flavor of the city.

I only discovered the "flaw" with the map when trying to map out a
fight on a city corner and I referred to the scale to try to make it
accurate. Obviously, I didn't let this stop me, it didn't ruin my
game, and it doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of
things or my love for the BR game. It just made me pause and shake
my head.

Perfection is the Holy Grail of the gaming industry (and every other
industry as well). Always desired, but never obtained.

Jaime
__________________________________________________ ____
Jaime T. Matthew
mrjamela@writeme.com
http://www.geocities.com/~mrjamela

[Neil Barnes]

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 c558382@showme.missouri.edu wrote:
> My recomendation, as with all BR defects, is to use that map as a kind of
> "player knowledge". You have your map, they go by the Player's Secrets
> map. They might be way off (mostly in distance, sometimes in detail,
> rarely in essentials), or they may just off enough to know that such a map
> is imprecise.

Hmmm. I just did my own map (since I'm playing a regent of Ilien), with
a couple of canals, the Sea Gate of Ilien (controlling access to thee
docks, further up river), the Rookery, the little village on the island
inn the river delta, and a few other bits and pieces. Now it's got some
local colour.

neeil

[James Ruhland]

>
> Is that the real problem here? The scale? I think in part it is.
> With the Domain guides, each of the city maps have been reduced to 2
> 8.5 x 11 pieces of paper. I think we can all agree that this is too
> little space to properly render a city the size of Nowelton or any of
> the others with any degree of detail. Now, while I know that you
> aren't currently plannying to do any more of these books, perhaps in
> future BR products which include maps, you could try to make them
> folded posters (such as the main BR region maps). This would give
> your map designers more room to comfortably add enough detail to make
> the maps more than interesting player handouts (which is what I
> primarily use them for at this point).
>
I like this idea; the rejoinder will be for budgeting purposes, this isn't
possible. IMO, the old Judges Guild cities (CS of the Invincible overlord,
CS of the World Emperor, and Tarantis) prove that you can make places that
are fun to game in, include a big enough map, and still stay within budget
(these maps were on relatively thin sheets of non-glossy paper, but 1) I've
used 'em the most and 2) mine are still in reasonable condition after 15+
years of heavy use. . .ok, somewhat tattered, but usable).
>
> Regarding realism, I'd point you again to the Harn maps.
>
Harn city maps are very good, I agree (at least the one's I've seen are; I
haven't bought a Harn book for over 10 years, my loss, no doubt, but I
gotta hold the line somewhere. . .)

[Neil Barnes]

On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Jaime T. Matthew wrote:
> Is that the real problem here? The scale? I think in part it is.
> With the Domain guides, each of the city maps have been reduced to 2
> 8.5 x 11 pieces of paper. I think we can all agree that this is too
> little space to properly render a city the size of Nowelton or any of
> the others with any degree of detail. Now, while I know that you
> aren't currently plannying to do any more of these books, perhaps in
> future BR products which include maps, you could try to make them
> folded posters (such as the main BR region maps). This would give
> your map designers more room to comfortably add enough detail to make
> the maps more than interesting player handouts (which is what I
> primarily use them for at this point).

But most poster maps of cities in gaming products have far too little
real information on them. I'd rather have a small map (does anyone
remember the maps from Carl Sargent's Greyhawk stuff?), with some
concise notes, than an A1 poster map with twelve described locations.

For a 1 - 2 page description of a city, the ideal (IMHO) would be a
sketch map that shows the general layout of the city, descriptions of
all the districts of the town, with enough informaion to allow me to get
the feel of the place, and a dozen or so interesting locations within
the town.

The most important thing is that the towns & cities feel interesting &
real. I'd like to be able to say - 'Ilien' to the other players, and for
them to be able to say something other than 'that's the city your
character lives in'; in the same way that Pisa, Paris, London, Munich,
Oxford & Rome [1] all carry a load of images along with the name.

neil

[1] Or even Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Las Vegas & San Francisco.

[Tim Nutting]

> I sincerely apologize for any frustration the 200-foot roads on the
Nowelton
> map caused you. But as the editor of Talinie, I believe this map serves
its
> primary purpose: offering a bird's eye view of the city, showing where
its
> various districts are located and their relative sizes, and indicating
the
> city's major streets. I've seen real medieval/Renaissance maps that were
less
> accurate (the phrase "beyond here there be dragons" comes to mind...).

I'm going to have to agree with Carrie on this one (not like she needs my
agreement, but hey). Yes the city maps are less than the absolute
perfection of Harnworld, but I rather enjoy playing a game where I don't
have to have 50+stats..... Harn is just too detailed, I don't care what's
in Miller Jonas left pocket on the street of metalmakers in the town of
Kolas on the other side of the world. I know those aren't real Harnworld
locations, but it gets the point across.

Since when was the last time anyone here used one of the maps determine how
many buildings were one street X? How about how many soldier can fit down
the alleyway? I'm sorry, but I just make that stuff up as I play, so what
if I occasionally disagree with myself.

Harn may have fantasticly detailed maps, but having all that detail just
leads to endless page turning when you do need to find Miller Jonas, not to
mention sending the message that "we published it this way, you can't
change it". If this offends anyone, sorry, but it's my "humble" opinion
:)

Tim Nutting