Bard, magicians and magic

[irdeggman]

The discussion over magicians seems to be revolving around this issue so it looks like time for another poll.

Where does the line for lesser/greater magic fall? Are both bards and magicians lesser magic users? Are bards something else? If so, then what?

If you have other options/ideas/opinions please specify them in some game-mechanics format.

Also if you null your vote then you can see the results but you won't be able to vote on this poll in the future.

[RaspK_FOG]

I generally believe that bards are not exactly lesser arcane spellcaster; in fact, the concept of lesser magicks is mostly a basis that sounds at fault with the bard, since he does revolve so much around divination as much as around enchantment, a bit of the arcane arts that he definitely has good control over, followed by illusions, the only real part of lesser arcane magic he grasps.

[soudhadies]

I voted for "Something Else" I think that bards are casters of lesser magic and Sidhe Spellsongs. In 2e this was represented by giving bards access to illusion and divination spells (which comprised Lesser magic) and enchantment/charm spells (which comprised Sidhe Spellsong).

In the new conversion Spellsong could be assumed to comprise those spells that are on the bard spelllist but not on the wizard's spell list as well as those wiz/sorc enchantment spells(such as the healing spells) and sonic spells.

[RaspK_FOG]

Sorry for being annoying, but I think you meant to vote for choice No.2, since this is the one that represents that ONLY BARDS syphon different powers and not lesser arcane magic; what you voted for is that BOTH use something else...

Irdeggman, can we do something about this? I mean, it is not the first time someone made a simple mistake... Not allowing for such corrections to be made can only make things more annoying! At least count one vote off from the 3rd choice and put it on the 2nd one. Thank you.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jun 21 2004, 06:20 PM
Sorry for being annoying, but I think you meant to vote for choice No.2, since this is the one that represents that ONLY BARDS syphon different powers and not lesser arcane magic; what you voted for is that BOTH use something else...

Irdeggman, can we do something about this? I mean, it is not the first time someone made a simple mistake... Not allowing for such corrections to be made can only make things more annoying! At least count one vote off from the 3rd choice and put it on the 2nd one. Thank you.
Sorry your screwed RaspK. :P

No just kidding. ;) I should be able to handle that unless it gets way out of hand. If it gets real close then everything needs to be looked at again anyway. What I normally look for is a large vote in favor of something which indicates a large acceptance/like of some way to handle things.

[soudhadies]

Sorry for being annoying, but I think you meant to vote for choice No.2 ...


Was that in reference to my vote/post?

[Raesene Andu]

I think the easiest way to handle bards is to simple say that they can cast lesser magic (not as good as a magician of course) and use the elven method of Spellsong to cast some enchantment spells. Then include a new list of spells available for Cerilian Bards that replaces the one in the PHB.

[Osprey]

I voted for "something else" as well, as my vote seems to include options 1 and 2 together (Bards can cast Lesser Magic and some other spells well-suited to the art of spellsong; magicians are the specialists in lesser magic, but should also have some specialty spells; see below).

I think the 3.0/3.5 Bards' spell list is pretty awesome, and personally would prefer to leave it unmolested and import it directly into Birthright. I think Magicians represent the wizardly approach to Lesser Magic, and are the ones who need special attention in developing a spell list.

What would be especially helpful IMO is if a larger list of divination and illusion spells were created for magicians, and made so that these are EXCLUSIVE Magician spells that wizards and sorcerers can't access because they're specifically well-suited to the subtleties of the magician's path. Sorry i don't have a whole list ready for you, I'm still in the brainstorming stages, but would love to collaborate here on the boards for ideas for specialized magician spells that will lend unique flavor and utility to the magician class.

Osprey

[Azulthar]

I voted "something else". I think bards would mostly use elven spellsong, with some support of lesser magic. This would explain why their spellcasting is so different from that of a magician (no preparation, charisma-based, bardic music, etc.).

- Azulthar

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jun 22 2004, 05:36 AM
I think the 3.0/3.5 Bards' spell list is pretty awesome, and personally would prefer to leave it unmolested and import it directly into Birthright.
Hear, hear! I totally agree. So I vote for option 2.

[irdeggman]

Here's something I put together using the SRD. I took the wizards/sorcerers spell list and reduced it to the spells that a magician would have if following the 2nd ed rules (i.e., up to 2nd level spells of all schools and only Ill and Div of higher ones. I kept in the spells listed as Universal since it wasn't an original school at the time. I did highlight the higher level Universal spells that 'don't seem to fit' BR).

If you look at the list it becomes pretty obvious how the magician was 'broke' as far as spells available. If he gains 2 spells per level + 1 from either Ill or Div then once he gains 9th level spells he pretty much knows all of the available ones right off the top and his bonus spell casting per day is extremely limited.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jun 22 2004, 05:32 PM
If you look at the list it becomes pretty obvious how the magician was 'broke' as far as spells available. If he gains 2 spells per level + 1 from either Ill or Div then once he gains 9th level spells he pretty much knows all of the available ones right off the top and his bonus spell casting per day is extremely limited.
Hm... Well, in light of that, maybe I should've voted option nr. 3... :unsure:

[soudhadies]

I don't see how having access to 3 9th-level spells is any more "broken" than having access to 4, as is the case in the current BRCS spelllist. It is still more than the magician had access to in the original edition (2 by my count in the 2e PHB). It even makes sense: powerful magic is rare because most of it is "True Magic" to which few magicians have access. And there's nothing that prohibits magicians from using those 9th-level spell slots for other purposes, such as for meta-magicked lower level spells.

To clarify my vote (since I'm not sure whether Rasp's comment was to me or not, I just want to be safe). I did indeed want to vote for option 3. Option two says that bards do not use lesser magic. Option 1, which says both magicians and bards use lesser magic is more in line with my thought, but it doesn't go far enough. I think that bards use lesser magic and spellsong, which seems to be in line with what Raesene, Osprey, and Azulthar both are saying.

[RaspK_FOG]

It seems I forgot to "cast my vote" regarding THAT issue...

I think that the magician should not get two spells plus extra ones; since he already has so little access to spells, does it not seem only logical to minimise the number of spells he gets anyway?

Bearcat, my objection lies on the fact that the second choice seems to say that bards use something else, while magicians do use lesser magic. While your concept is close to the third option, the latter imposes the idea that both use something that is not lesser magic! Your concept seems to indicate that you simply do not think that bards do not use lesser magic, but they also use the spellsong. If I am mistaken, I will drop the issue right here and now.

[soudhadies]

Let me try and dissect this, so I'm sure of what you're saying:



my objection lies on the fact that the second choice seems to say that bards use something else, while magicians do use lesser magic.


True. This is why I didn't vote for it: Bard's use Lesser Magic and something else (Spellsong).



While your concept is close to the third option, the latter imposes the idea that both use something that is not lesser magic!


I'm going to assume the "latter" points to the third option and not my concept. In that case I have to disagree: the third option indicates the voters desire to say "I don't like either of the other two options". The request to specify allows the voter to explain why neither option is satisfactory. This is what I did.



Your concept seems to indicate that you simply do not think that bards do not use lesser magic, but they also use the spellsong.


Once I got my head around the double negative, yes that is a pretty good summary of my position. That is why I also voted for option three: my opinion lies outside of the scope of both options because it combines elements of both options:

Bards and Magicians both use Lesser magic (OPTION 1), and Bards use something else (OPTION 2).

[RaspK_FOG]

OK. Sorry for getting it wrong, even in part...

[irdeggman]

Results of the poll are:

Yes, they both cast lesser magic [ 5 ] [33.33%]
No, only magicians do bards cast something else [ 5 ] [33.33%]
Something else (specify) [ 4 ] [26.67%]
Abstain [ 1 ] [6.67%]


It looks on the surface to be inconclusive. But reading the comments and extrapolation it appears tome that a combination of #2 (only magicians cast lesser magic - bards cast somethingelse) and #3 Something else would appear to be the closest to a consensus. And even then is would not a true clear majority (twice as many in favor as the next closest) {unless all of the votes for #3 were thrown into the mix, but I didn't get that fell only some}. But it would still appear to be the closest.

What that tells me is that the magicain and bard classes really shouldn't be tied together spell wise. Both should be independent spell lists and while there may be some overlapping spells they don't need to be completly overlapping.

Hence, keep the bard the same as the PHB one and come up with a 'new' magician class that doesn't have its spells be the same ones as the bards, although some will be.

So the magician class needs some more work - more than can be done before I take my break, so that will be an open (i.e., unsantioned) part of Chap 1 when I take my sabbatical.

I'm closing this poll - since I don't really see any tendency for a 'clear' decision and it wil justdrag on infinitum otherwise.