New list member

[jake.cotter@utoronto.c]

Hello. I have been following the various MPGN mailing lists for a while,
switching back and forth between them as events in my gaming group
warrant. This is the first time I've been to the Birthright list, though,
and let me tell you why.

The first time I played Birthright it was a disaster. An epic disaster,
sure, but one my players won't let me forget.

I began it, after some discussion, with one of the players as the
new regent of Medoere. I even bought the realm book (the first of
several). Another player had guild holdings in and around Medoere, the
last controlled some magic sources. No problem so far, right?

The problems began when my players wanted to actually _do_ something.
After the first Domain Turn it became clear I had a problem. I had to
keep track of the changing conditions within the players' domains. This i
accomplished with a dry-erase board with the maps drawn on. Okay.

But what of the rival Regents? Specifically, Medoere was exchanging
insults with Diemed, the guildmaster was battling guilder Kalen in the
streets of the cities, and the mage was Dueling with all and sundry for
control of the magic resources. It got so that I simply couldn't keep
track of things like armies, regency, and money in all the various NPC
domains. And that's just the domains that the PCs were actually in
conflict with. Keeping track of the neutrals was more than I could take!
Even keeping track of who was allied to whom became exceedingly difficult.

Then the other shoe dropped. One of my players decided that his profits
were being unfairly cut by the high taxes one of my other players was
placing on his operations to pay for the coming war with Diemed. So he
tried to take over. He hired mercs, stormed the palace (which was poorly
guarded, one of many "economy measures" my Priest-King instigated) and
attempted to over-throw the regent. For the first time in any of my
campaigns, my PCs were at odds for a good length of time. My options were
to deal with one, then the other with each leaving the room, or to turn
one player into an NPC.

When the war with Diemed finally came, my players suffered the greatest
tradgedy known, one which makes them throw things at me whenever I suggest
we return to Birthright. I was running a series of adventures from
"legends of the Hero Kings". One of these results in a betrayal by one
of the PCs' most trusted courtiers. Well, I had such an NPC, but
unfortunately he was just a little too trusted. The PC regent believed,
at the end of the adventure, that Diemed had been behind the whole event.
Taking advantage of Herl's visit with Prince Andru, they invaded. Within
three War moves, the results were clear:

1) The entire Diemed army was dead or routed, mostly dead.
2) Most (85%) of the Medoere army was dead or injured, but they had taken
the field.

Because of Medoere's weakened condition at the end of the battle, two
events took place:

1) Prince Andru helped Diemed retake their lost lands in exchange for
Diemed's support of Prince Andru's bid for the Iron Crown, and transfer of
the holding in the Imperial City.

2) The Spider invaded Medoere. He tore a large chunk out of the Northern
provence, and ate the hastily created peasant levy who tried to stand
against him. Fortunately, he was repulsed at the capital.

End of the War? Medoere was reduced to one good province, one barren
wasteland, and one provence "policed" by Andru. _And_ they owed large
amounts of money to Illien.

Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the setting
as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch it,
and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs, or
micro-managment amoung rival PCs.

Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.

Jake Cotter

[tiphareth]

at 05:13 pm 27.4.98 -0400, jake cotter wrote:

>Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the setting
>as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch it,
>and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs, or
>micro-managment amoung rival PCs.
>
>Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.

our campaign focuses very much on the adventuring aspect of things, and
leaves domain actions as the backdrop we act against. it works very well
for us. if you don't want *any* politics to worry about, you can ignore
that completely. the setting is more than good enough to hold its own from
a strictly adventuring standpoint -- and i got the impression that your
players might prefer that. if they want to try domains again later, they
can be introduced at any point in a campaign. besides, they might like
things better after they've earned their respective ways to the top ;)

cheers

- -nick

[Memnoch]

- -----Original Message-----
From: jake.cotter@utoronto.ca
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 4:26 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - New list member


>Hello. I have been following the various MPGN mailing lists for a while,
>switching back and forth between them as events in my gaming group
>warrant. This is the first time I've been to the Birthright list, though,
>and let me tell you why.
>
>The first time I played Birthright it was a disaster. An epic disaster,
>sure, but one my players won't let me forget.
>
>I began it, after some discussion, with one of the players as the
>new regent of Medoere. I even bought the realm book (the first of
>several). Another player had guild holdings in and around Medoere, the
>last controlled some magic sources. No problem so far, right?
>
>The problems began when my players wanted to actually _do_ something.
>After the first Domain Turn it became clear I had a problem. I had to
>keep track of the changing conditions within the players' domains. This i
>accomplished with a dry-erase board with the maps drawn on. Okay.


The best way that I have found when running BR PnP games is to work out
averages for all the domains that are *inactive* and make the roles for
taxation, etc for the *active* domains... which in this case would be
Diemed, Roesone, Ilien and Aerenwe, and no one else (Realm wise). Domains
would include Aelies, Siele Ghoried, IHH, OT, El-Hadid, etc... basically
anyone with interests in and around Medoere would use *realistic numbers*.
The remainder of Anuire would collect and maintain average amounts, use
average regency (so as to not accumulate so much) and this would work
towards them working against each other and also serve as a reference point
when it came to the point of the PC's working against them in the future.

>But what of the rival Regents? Specifically, Medoere was exchanging
>insults with Diemed, the guildmaster was battling guilder Kalen in the
>streets of the cities, and the mage was Dueling with all and sundry for
>control of the magic resources. It got so that I simply couldn't keep
>track of things like armies, regency, and money in all the various NPC
>domains. And that's just the domains that the PCs were actually in
>conflict with. Keeping track of the neutrals was more than I could take!
>Even keeping track of who was allied to whom became exceedingly difficult.


The best way to keep track of all of this would be to get a 80 page college
ruled notebook like you would use in school and before the game even starts,
allocate about 5 pages per domain and then keep track of it via that. Or,
if you happen to have a computer, use a spreadsheet program to do the same
sort of thing. When actually playing the game, merely make notes to
yourself and then make the changes to the domains afterwards....

>Then the other shoe dropped. One of my players decided that his profits
>were being unfairly cut by the high taxes one of my other players was
>placing on his operations to pay for the coming war with Diemed. So he
>tried to take over. He hired mercs, stormed the palace (which was poorly
>guarded, one of many "economy measures" my Priest-King instigated) and
>attempted to over-throw the regent. For the first time in any of my
>campaigns, my PCs were at odds for a good length of time. My options were
>to deal with one, then the other with each leaving the room, or to turn
>one player into an NPC.


This is the best part of BR, IMO... when the players work with and against
each other, it can prove to be the best (and worst) role-playing experiences
in existance... If you have fair and mature players, one should not have to
leave the room when the other acts... Pass notes if you have to... and make
sure that neither is using out-of-game knowledge by monitoring the why's of
their actions...

>When the war with Diemed finally came, my players suffered the greatest
>tradgedy known, one which makes them throw things at me whenever I suggest
>we return to Birthright. I was running a series of adventures from
>"legends of the Hero Kings". One of these results in a betrayal by one
>of the PCs' most trusted courtiers. Well, I had such an NPC, but
>unfortunately he was just a little too trusted. The PC regent believed,
>at the end of the adventure, that Diemed had been behind the whole event.
>Taking advantage of Herl's visit with Prince Andru, they invaded. Within
>three War moves, the results were clear:
>
>1) The entire Diemed army was dead or routed, mostly dead.
>2) Most (85%) of the Medoere army was dead or injured, but they had taken
> the field.

>Because of Medoere's weakened condition at the end of the battle, two
>events took place:


>1) Prince Andru helped Diemed retake their lost lands in exchange for
>Diemed's support of Prince Andru's bid for the Iron Crown, and transfer of
>the holding in the Imperial City.


Remember, in order for this to happen, the regents in question would have to
perform investiture ceremonies and such for the vassalage, and passing of
the holdings.

>2) The Spider invaded Medoere. He tore a large chunk out of the Northern
>provence, and ate the hastily created peasant levy who tried to stand
>against him. Fortunately, he was repulsed at the capital.


Why did the Spider not invade Diemed as well... Remember that the Spider is
very non-bigoted as far as invading persons is concerned.

>End of the War? Medoere was reduced to one good province, one barren
>wasteland, and one provence "policed" by Andru. _And_ they owed large
>amounts of money to Illien.
>
>Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the setting
>as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch it,
>and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs, or
>micro-managment amoung rival PCs.
>
>Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.
>
>Jake Cotter


Other than the macro-economics, you seemed to have a good grasp of what is
going on. Unforunately, it was the players that needed to learn the lesson.
The lesson is this - Everyone in BR has allies and allies will assist (for a
price) their allies in keeping what they had. Your players have been
adventuring and killing things without consequence for so long that they
just weren't ready for a Political atmosphere where there are consequences
to everything and that everyone tries to get in everyone else's business...
That, as well as not working together... The biggest mistake that happened
was the priest did not speak with the guilder and the guilder in turn
rebelled against the priest... such is life in BR... It happens... don't
blame yourself... Not everyone is fit to rule...

Memnoch

>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:13:26 -0400 jake.cotter@utoronto.ca writes:


>Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the
>setting
>as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch
>it,
>and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs,
>or
>micro-managment amoung rival PCs.
>
>Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.
>
>Jake Cotter
>

Yikes. Well, I'm not much of a help, having only ever ran or played in
BR via PBEMs since there is no one within an hour of me that plays it.
But, I can tell you how I keep track of everything in a PBEM.

First of all, it takes a lot of up front planning. I made a spreadsheet
with all the possible domains on it, their holdings, and who controlled
what. Whenever a player changes one of these in the game, I make the
corresponding change on the spreadsheet. That keeps track of all the
holdings.

As for money, that only happens once every 3rd turn, and is fairly easy
to keep track of. Just have a separate sheet for each PC domain and
immediate NPC domains that lists armies, GB and RP. You don't have to
keep track of all the other NPC domains that you don't interact with.
Just occasionally change some of their data and make up a story like "The
guilder got into a poker game, and lost the holdings in province ABC to a
new guilder" or something. You don't have to have the others be as
dynamic.

Then you wonder about army placements. On the individual sheets where
you list GB and RP, have a section where you have unit type and location.
That's it. Don't move your NPC armies around, just have them placed
where it is most inconvenient for your players.

Finally, I say take a look at the big picture. You don't have to be into
the minute details on every action. So the mage wants to take over all
the holdings. Fine. Spend some RP and GB, and roll the dice, and
subtract out some from somewhere else. Update your spreadsheet at the
end of each domain turn, keeping notes on paper. Have each player submit
the domain turns on a notepad or something, and do DM fiats (ie, "Yes,
you rule up this guild here, but you are contested here." "You manage to
contest the sources in Diemed and destroy them, but an enemy mage rules
up all the available slots left in your lands")

That's all for now. I'm sure others have some ideas, so I'll let them
speak and not keep taking up all the mailing list space... ;)

Benjamin

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[KirbyRanma]

In a message dated 98-04-27 17:21:15 EDT, Jake Cotter writes:

[Brian Stoner]

Birthright it is a maintenance intensive setting, no doubt. I recommend using
tracking sheets for NPC domains. First, use the domain record sheet that comes
with the boxed set for each of the active NPC domains. That way, you know
where each army and holding is. Second, I created a sheet for my campaign that
helped me keep track of the NPCs' domain actions. Each sheet could track the
actions of 6 realms over the course of 2 turns. Each turn was divided into
free actions and 3 domain action rounds. I left enough space to write down the
action, and rolled all the results I could before hand, writting them down
too. For action that the players could affect, I waited for game time, but
over all I found this greatly reduced the amount of time I spent running NPC
domains.

If you want a copy of the sheet I created, email me. I can send it as an
attatchment. It is designed for MS Excel. Good luck with your campaign.

Brian, aka Dearnen.

jake.cotter@utoronto.ca wrote:

> Hello. I have been following the various MPGN mailing lists for a while,
> switching back and forth between them as events in my gaming group
> warrant. This is the first time I've been to the Birthright list, though,
> and let me tell you why.
>
> The first time I played Birthright it was a disaster. An epic disaster,
> sure, but one my players won't let me forget.
>
> I began it, after some discussion, with one of the players as the
> new regent of Medoere. I even bought the realm book (the first of
> several). Another player had guild holdings in and around Medoere, the
> last controlled some magic sources. No problem so far, right?
>
> The problems began when my players wanted to actually _do_ something.
> After the first Domain Turn it became clear I had a problem. I had to
> keep track of the changing conditions within the players' domains. This i
> accomplished with a dry-erase board with the maps drawn on. Okay.
>
> But what of the rival Regents? Specifically, Medoere was exchanging
> insults with Diemed, the guildmaster was battling guilder Kalen in the
> streets of the cities, and the mage was Dueling with all and sundry for
> control of the magic resources. It got so that I simply couldn't keep
> track of things like armies, regency, and money in all the various NPC
> domains. And that's just the domains that the PCs were actually in
> conflict with. Keeping track of the neutrals was more than I could take!
> Even keeping track of who was allied to whom became exceedingly difficult.
>
> Then the other shoe dropped. One of my players decided that his profits
> were being unfairly cut by the high taxes one of my other players was
> placing on his operations to pay for the coming war with Diemed. So he
> tried to take over. He hired mercs, stormed the palace (which was poorly
> guarded, one of many "economy measures" my Priest-King instigated) and
> attempted to over-throw the regent. For the first time in any of my
> campaigns, my PCs were at odds for a good length of time. My options were
> to deal with one, then the other with each leaving the room, or to turn
> one player into an NPC.
>
> When the war with Diemed finally came, my players suffered the greatest
> tradgedy known, one which makes them throw things at me whenever I suggest
> we return to Birthright. I was running a series of adventures from
> "legends of the Hero Kings". One of these results in a betrayal by one
> of the PCs' most trusted courtiers. Well, I had such an NPC, but
> unfortunately he was just a little too trusted. The PC regent believed,
> at the end of the adventure, that Diemed had been behind the whole event.
> Taking advantage of Herl's visit with Prince Andru, they invaded. Within
> three War moves, the results were clear:
>
> 1) The entire Diemed army was dead or routed, mostly dead.
> 2) Most (85%) of the Medoere army was dead or injured, but they had taken
> the field.
>
> Because of Medoere's weakened condition at the end of the battle, two
> events took place:
>
> 1) Prince Andru helped Diemed retake their lost lands in exchange for
> Diemed's support of Prince Andru's bid for the Iron Crown, and transfer of
> the holding in the Imperial City.
>
> 2) The Spider invaded Medoere. He tore a large chunk out of the Northern
> provence, and ate the hastily created peasant levy who tried to stand
> against him. Fortunately, he was repulsed at the capital.
>
> End of the War? Medoere was reduced to one good province, one barren
> wasteland, and one provence "policed" by Andru. _And_ they owed large
> amounts of money to Illien.
>
> Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the setting
> as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch it,
> and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs, or
> micro-managment amoung rival PCs.
>
> Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.
>
> Jake Cotter
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> >

[The Olesen`s]

Memnoch wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jake.cotter@utoronto.ca
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 4:26 PM
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - New list member
>
> >Hello. I have been following the various MPGN mailing lists for a while,
> >switching back and forth between them as events in my gaming group
> >warrant. This is the first time I've been to the Birthright list, though,
> >and let me tell you why.
> >
> >The first time I played Birthright it was a disaster. An epic disaster,
> >sure, but one my players won't let me forget.
> >
> >I began it, after some discussion, with one of the players as the
> >new regent of Medoere. I even bought the realm book (the first of
> >several). Another player had guild holdings in and around Medoere, the
> >last controlled some magic sources. No problem so far, right?
> >
> >The problems began when my players wanted to actually _do_ something.
> >After the first Domain Turn it became clear I had a problem. I had to
> >keep track of the changing conditions within the players' domains. This i
> >accomplished with a dry-erase board with the maps drawn on. Okay.
>
> The best way that I have found when running BR PnP games is to work out
> averages for all the domains that are *inactive* and make the roles for
> taxation, etc for the *active* domains... which in this case would be
> Diemed, Roesone, Ilien and Aerenwe, and no one else (Realm wise). Domains
> would include Aelies, Siele Ghoried, IHH, OT, El-Hadid, etc... basically
> anyone with interests in and around Medoere would use *realistic numbers*.
> The remainder of Anuire would collect and maintain average amounts, use
> average regency (so as to not accumulate so much) and this would work
> towards them working against each other and also serve as a reference point
> when it came to the point of the PC's working against them in the future.
>
> >But what of the rival Regents? Specifically, Medoere was exchanging
> >insults with Diemed, the guildmaster was battling guilder Kalen in the
> >streets of the cities, and the mage was Dueling with all and sundry for
> >control of the magic resources. It got so that I simply couldn't keep
> >track of things like armies, regency, and money in all the various NPC
> >domains. And that's just the domains that the PCs were actually in
> >conflict with. Keeping track of the neutrals was more than I could take!
> >Even keeping track of who was allied to whom became exceedingly difficult.
>
> The best way to keep track of all of this would be to get a 80 page college
> ruled notebook like you would use in school and before the game even starts,
> allocate about 5 pages per domain and then keep track of it via that. Or,
> if you happen to have a computer, use a spreadsheet program to do the same
> sort of thing. When actually playing the game, merely make notes to
> yourself and then make the changes to the domains afterwards....


If you have ever looked at the Ruins of Empires source-book (DMs for
Anurian campaigns, you better have!) you may have noticed the way they
list holding in the top-left corner of the page with abbriviations (EH.)
I made a similar thing with a table (not eat at table) and did it like
in the books but listed multiple domains, It works well.

EXAMPLE:

Province Land ruler Law Guild Temple Scource

Caerwill (2/4) SE SE (0) GK (2) SE (2) He (4)
GK (2)
Caercas (4/1) MR MR (3) SR (2) SE (4) RA (1)
RA (1) EH (2)

SE=Suris Enlien (medore)
MR=Marle Roesone (roesone)
RA=Rogr Aglondier (ilien)
EH=El-Hadid (port of call exchange)
He=Heeihbnxdljbn (mage)
GK=Guilder Kalien (Endier)

[Jake Cotter]

> If you want a copy of the sheet I created, email me. I
can send it as an
> attatchment. It is designed for MS Excel. Good luck with
your campaign.

Yes! Please! jake.cotter@utoronto.ca

Thanks.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 jake.cotter@utoronto.ca wrote:

> The first time I played Birthright it was a disaster. An epic disaster,
> sure, but one my players won't let me forget.

> Now, I love Birthright. I've bought every book dealing with the setting
> as a whole, and every Anuirian Realmbook. But my players won't touch it,
> and I can't figure out how to manage macro-politics amoung the NPCs, or
> micro-managment amoung rival PCs.
>
> Can the list help? I eagerly await your replies.
>
> Jake Cotter

I generally leave most of the not-directly involved domains out of the
action entirely. Those domains that are peripherally involved (i.e.
erstwhile allies and cold-war rivals) I give 1 action a season that will
effect one of the PC's, and assume that during the rest of the season they
are doing "internal" things or dealing with other rivals. These I don't
keep track of in terms of RP and GB. Each country in the RoE book has an
"average" listing of treasury and RP pool, and I just use that when needed
(i.e. the PC gets into a bidding war, say on spending RP to oppose a Rule
Holding Action). I do complete the whole domain turns of the close allies
of the PC's as well as each PC's "heriditary enemy" (i.e. for the
Priest-King it might be Diemed, for the Thief it might be Guilder Kalien,
for the wizard it might be Hermedie, etc.).

As far as what you should do next, if your players didn't like the last
game, it might be time to start over at a new beginning, but with the
consequences of the former game in place. Allow your players to make new
characters, but with the stipulation that they will be playing the heirs
of their former characters (which doesn't necessarily mean their
offspring, but it could be that). Then assume that things have continued
to go downhill, and that they have almost nothing to inherit. Perhaps
Medoere was forced to join Ilien, and the priest now only controls a few
temple holdings, and likewise the others have lost their realms or have
seen them whittled down to virtually nothing. It is then their jobs to
regain their family glory. You may even choose to start some of the PC's
as non-regents, with their bloodline their only inheritance.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu